Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutMMPC.2023.0427.MinutesMCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 RESCHEDULED FROM MARCH 28, 2023 A Regular Meeting of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission was convened at 16705 E. Avenue of the Fountains in open and public session at 5:00 p.m. Members Present: Chair Scott Grzybowski; Vice Chair Steven Nurney; Commissioner Craig; Commissioner Holden; Commissioner Irwin; Commissioner Jennings; Commissioner Willard Staff Present: Interim Community Services Director Kevin Snipes; Executive Assistant Patti Lopuszanski Audience: None Tra nsc. ibed Dy https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES Post -Production File TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS APRIL 27, 2023, RESCHEDULED FROM MARCH 28, 2023 MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MEETING VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES Transcription Provided By: https://Otter.ai sas+•sr:+ Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. ��cr�bed thy https://otter.ai NOTICE OF MEETING - AMENDED MEETING DATE/TIME REGULAR MEETING MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION Vice Chair Steven Nurney Commissioner Bill Craig Commissioner Janice Holden Chairman Scott Grzybowski Commissioner Brian Jennings Commissioner Sherry Irwin Commissioner D.J. Willard TIME: 4:00 PM - REGULAR MEETING WHEN: . ____. ...._ = 3 THURSDAY, APRIL 27, 2023 WHERE: FOUNTAIN HILLS COUNCIL CHAMBERS 16705 E. AVENUE OF THE FOUNTAINS, FOUNTAIN HILLS, AZ Commissioners of the Town of Fountain Hills will attend either in person or by telephone conference call; a quorum of the Town's Council, various Commission, Committee or Board members may be in attendance at the Commission meeting. Notice is hereby given that pursuant to A.R.S. §1-602.A.9, subject to certain specified statutory exceptions, parents have a right to consent before the State or any of its political subdivisions make a video or audio recording of a minor child. Meetings of the Commission are audio and/or video recorded and, as a result, proceedings in which children are present may be subject to such recording. Parents, in order to exercise their rights may either file written consent with the Town Clerk to such recording, or ake personal action to ensure that their child or children are not present when a recording may be made. I a child is present at the time a recording is made, the Town will assume that the rights afforded parents pursuant to A.R.S. §1-602.A.9 have been waived. REQUEST TO COMMENT The public is welcome to participate in Commission meetings. TO SPEAK TO AN AGENDA ITEM, please complete a Request to Comment card, located in the back of the Council Chambers, and hand it to the Executive Assistant prior to discussion of that item, if possible. Include the agenda item on which you wish to comment. Speakers will be allowed three contiguous minutes to address the Commission. Verbal comments should be directed through the Presiding Officer and not to individual Commissioners. TO COMMENT ON AN AGENDA ITEM IN WRITING ONLY, please complete a Request to Comment card, indicating it is a written comment, and check the box on whether you are FOR or AGAINST and agenda item, and hand it to the Executive Assistant prior to discussion, if possible. McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission Meeting of April 27, 2023 2 of 3 1. CALL TO ORDER 2. ROLL CALL 3. CALL TO THE PUBLIC Pursuant to A.R.S. 438-431.01(H), public comment is permitted (not required) on matters NOT listed on the agenda. Any such comment (i) must be within the jurisdiction of the Commission, and (Nis subject to reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions. The Commission will not discuss or take legal action on matters raised during Call to the Public unless the matters ore properly noticed for discussion and legal action. At the conclusion of the Coll to the Public, individual commissioners may (i) respond to criticism, (ii) ask staff to review a matter, or (iii) ask that the matter be placed on a future Commission agenda. 4. CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: Approval of MMPC Meeting Minutes of April 3, 2023 5. CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: Buffelgrass Abatement on North Leg Trail 6. DISCUSSION: Town Council Meeting June 20, 2023 - Renaming of Trails 7. DISCUSSION: Changing the MMPC Charter Work Group Update 8. UPDATE: Sonoran Conservancy Fountain Hills Liaison 9. UPDATE: Status of Trail Counters 10. UPDATE: Status of Cameras at Adero Canyon Trailhead 11. REVIEW AND DISCUSSION: Trail Counter Activity 12. DISCUSSION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: Future Agenda Items 13. UPDATE: Next MMPC Meeting is May 23, 2023 at 5.00 PM in Town Council Chambers. Agenda items and attachments will be due by May 9th, 2023 to be included in the meeting packet. 14. ADJOURNMENT MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Well call this meeting to order at 6:03 PM, Patti, if you could do Roll Call, please? LOPUSZANSKI: Chairman Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Here LOPUSZANSKI: Vice Chair Nurney? NURNEY: Here LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Craig? CRAIG: Here LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Holden is currently absent. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Irwin IRWIN: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Jennings JENNINGS: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Willard WILLARD: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: Do we have any Calls to the Public for Item Number 3? LOPUSZANSKI: No, we do not. GRZYBOWSKI: Very good. Moving onto Item Number 4 Consideration and Possible Actiot4 Approval of the MMPC. Meeting Minutes of April 3. 2023 Does anybody have any comments on these minutes? Can 1 have a Motion to Approve the Minutes? WILLARD: Second GRZYBOWSKI: AR in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: It's unanimous. Moving on to Item Number 5 Consideration and Possible Action for the Buffelgrass Abatement on North Leg Trait. So, we did have a conversation on this at the last meeting but what we could do today is we could decide if we're going to actually take any action, Kevin, yeah. And we do look at Kevin on that one. Right. So, in the packet, there is information on what buffelgrass is, and what are the techniques to remove it. Do we have a comment from Kevin? SNIPES: So, I think this is something where if we're going to go out and do it, then we need to understand this is a three to five-year plan, at the very minimum. Because of the way buffelgrass spreads, the only thing were doing is post -killing of what's there. As far as my concerns go if we go out and we start doing herbicides, then what other plants are we killing, first of all, is the accuracy of what's being done making sure that they're licensed or herbicidal applicators, because we couldn't let anybody that's not licensed, go out and do any of the applications. So, if we're looking on the herbicide side, that's those are the main things that I see as potentially being an issue. 1 think. And then timing is everything with the herbicide. As soon as it's brown, you're wasting your time, all you're doing is putting liquid on a brown plant that's already done with it, what it's going to do, and it's going to spread the seeds that are already dead on there so that they didn't have to Tr3 nscr by https://otterai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES be removed to get rid of the seeds. And that's a whole other thing. And it's going I won't say it's a losing battle, but it's going to be a very tough battle, I think to get control of it because of the way that it spreads and how good it is. The Fox grasses, were getting down here a lot now in the foxtail. And you'll see it in the parks and we're on them all the time. You know, we're talking going up and doing single apps and expecting that to cure a problem when really over the acreage, it would be a massive undertaking to be able to pull off what sounds good on the surface. And so, as I said, I'm not against going out and taking it on just know, what you're taking on is a huge task regardless of how you do it. WILLARD: So, 1 had an unofficial conversation, 1 guess, with Scott Hamilton over near the side, and they are tackling this, and they have secured grant money to do it so they're hiring a third party. And it sounds like I'm not sure of the details that we're it's possible for us to somehow piggyback on their base grant that we might be able to get some money back. Yeah, he made the point kind of the same things you said. I mean, this is a big problem. It takes expertise, it costs money. And he said the grant that they've got is like a matching grant, but they're able to use volunteer equivalent labor to satisfy the matching part of it as opposed to quoting real money. So, my question then is, how do we get from where we are today to pile at least looking at the past ability I'm getting some grant. SNIPES: 1 can speak to that a little bit in that we've already there's and I'm not sure the name, but I believe it's a wilderness grant that's out right now to help prevent forest fires. And this would be a great way, to get it from to get funding from them, and they definitely have funding. And they do it on a yearly basis. But I think this would be a good use for a grant like that. And 1 know that you know, when you look at Tucson it is kind of the, the spearhead of this operation, right, they were ground zero where it came in at and watching them lose the battle year after year after year. And if you go down there, now, you're going to see that there's still losing the battle line and struggling, to make headway with it. And when it burns, it just makes it worse. And so, you know, it, it makes it, it makes it fertilized it, basically, it kills everything that's there, except for the seeds of the buffelgrass, and then it comes back and forth. And it burns so hot that it kills all your cacti, all your trees, everything because it's one of the hottest burning fuels, it's what's in the desert. And so, you know, that's, those are the things that I think really need to be thought about before we put out a recommendation of what, what we want to do. Because if you're going to go out and just go after it a little bit, you know, it, you're, it's a waste of time and effort and funding. So... NURNEY: So, two questions, Kevin. So, first, you said, once it's brown, it's too late to treat. So, are we even there yet? We must be getting closer, right? SNIPES: For this year, you're probably for the most part, you're going to be there. I haven't gone out and looked in the last few weeks. But we're right at that run, where it'll stop sucking. It won't suck in the chemicals. NURNEY: And then the second question is maybe kind of an obvious one or not. What if we don't do anything? What's the worst -case scenario? b� https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES SNIPES: Yeah, yeah, there's definitely I mean, it'll definitely increase our fire risk. This year, 1 think we're going to have a huge increase in viruses just because of all the Flowers that are out there, you know, and, and, frankly, the Globe Mallow is, is out there. And it's heavy, heavy. You know, it's all the yellow Flowers that you're seeing all over the hill. And those are going to all be brown in the next month. So, you'll hear it stinknet that yeah, there's a bunch of different names for it and the common side, but yeah, it's, it's the one that's that you're seeing? NURNEY: Invasive one, two, right? SNIPES: It is very invasive. Yes. HOLDEN: Sorry, I'm just thinking, I've heard a cut. Those are different. I think you got to pull those not like the grasses, the buffelgrass, and the fountain grass as I understand it, and in Scottsdale does send out a thing that says, you know, we're working on the grasses, but you can pull the snake net, just bring yourself a little doggie bag and stick it in there. So I've been doing that, like my neighborhood is full of it. And 1 don't know what's happened. There's someone who reported some to me, but if we do, are you going to pull it, or should we not? SNIPES: I think it's fine to pull it. I mean, you're definitely not doing any damage by doing that. I like the grass. Well, and the grasses, are a two -fold deal? You know, if you're pulling it and it's early enough in its lifecycle, then yeah, you can do it. Once it gets to the end of its lifecycle, then you're pulling it and the seeds are falling off anyway. So, there's no good answer. There's no black - and -white answer. I don't think this to a problem. NURNEY: And there's no, I'm not a chemist or anything but I've seen having lived on the East Coast. I've struggled for years, trying to get my lungs to look good. And you know, you put this pre - emergent crabgrass was the nemesis of the East. Yeah. And you get this pre -emergent crabgrass control. Is there something like that that would work on this pre -emergent stuff rather than treating it? Well, it's already. SNIPES: well, you have to remember that a preemergence going into effect Lots of things and so you're going to make it to where that none of your wildflower seeds grow, you're going to make it so that nothing grows in the desert and you're talking having to blanket the entire Preserve. And I just don't think that's a realistic answer to the issue either. GRZYBOWSKI: So, I was just going to bring up. SNIPES: I think that having the discussion around if we want to recommend if don't want to recommend or if we leave the preserve the Preserve, 1 think that's absolutely something that can be discussed and recommended. And it doesn't mean that we'll have the funding or the ability or the number of people that it would take to do it, even if we do recommend it. But I think having the discussion around it and seeing, you know, at least getting the history of what's going on and what others are doing and seeing how their response is affecting what's going on can all play into that. And I and 1 do think that that's something that this group could have that discussion around. WILLARD: 1 mean, as a commission, overseeing their preserve, I think at a minimum, we should at least recommend to the town that we pursue the possibility of a grant, I think this is a more complex and significant issue to think that we can handle it internally with internal resources. So I Tr II hops://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES would like to propose that we at least recommend that we pursue the possibility of a grant to help us handle this because I think without that, 1 think the reality is pretty tough. NURNEY: Yeah. GRZYBOWSKI: The Town would look to get the grant. Yeah, we're just recommending that the Town move, to find the grant move towards that. SNIPES: Well, and that's something that this committee could absolutely help with is finding a grant, like going for the grant, because of the limited resources of the town and we don't have a grant writer, I wish we did, it's one of the things I think would really be helpful to this town, we did not have a grant writer. We did it in other cities that I was in. And so, we would find them and pass them off. And it was great because they can literally earn their money by finding a grant. So, without that, it means that typically I write Rachel wrote or, you know, whoever is going for it are the ones that are taking the time to write them out. And I can look and see what the Wilderness Grant was. I know it was sent to me a few weeks ago, and I didn't think about this as being an option, but it would absolutely be a good one for that. NURNEY: But I think Bill to the question you raised, I think this is a good example of what we should be involved with, at least to the extent that we raise awareness to the Town Council, that we have an issue in the Preserve, and it could create a safety issue with fires. And either we the town have to decide, okay, we'll take the risk, and we'll leave it alone. Or no, we don't want to take that risk. And we need to do something about it. But I think it's up to us to bring it up. Who else would? GRZYBOWSKI: It could be parsed to record these things? Yes. But no, I'm with you. I think it's a good example. That's why it's on the agenda. It's why we're having a discussion. So, I mean, if we wanted to put a motion DJ if you wanted to so move that we can vote on that motion. Let's see if we can come up with the right wording. Question. Sure. Okay. CRAIG: Relative to grants, my understanding was any grant that we would initiate would go not necessarily to a specific area that we wanted, but it would go to the town and the town would entirely decide and they could decide or the council, I guess, could decide. They could take that money. GRZYBOWSKI: Grants that depend on the type of grant, but most grants are already earmarked for the specific. I have done a lot of fire grants in the past and you're very specific, you cannot take money if you got a wilderness like we got a couple of wildland-urban interface grants. That money had to go to wildland urban gear, and you couldn't take the money and use it somewhere else. SNIPES: Something like this would probably be as specific as we're going to use it in this section of the preserve. We could go for the entire preserve, but I think it would probably be more. It'd be more poignant to say, like, right now were talking about the North Leg area, then we would say we're going to work within this parameter to try and eradicate it. CRAIG: Bringing it up years ago, when we were looking at the Sunridge. Park, and questioning, could we get a grant to do some of this, we were told that any grant money would not necessarily we could designate specifically that we go to go specifically. ira=isairr' be https:0otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES SNIPES: Correct, either way, that's the case. But when the grant gets written, it's going to earmark it for a certain thing. And then the grant donators are going to be watching us to make sure that we do exactly what the grant says. So, the money would come to the town, and then the town would figure out how that money gets spent and who's doing what. But it would have to go to whatever the grant is designated for. LOPUSZANSKI: Okay, there's also the option to is that when you have a grant if there's a match attached to it, so when you have to go before Council, that has to be addressed. And when you're doing your grants, you also have to get a letter of support from the Town. There are steps in between, but there is a budgetary dollar amount that's usually attached to a grant, that would be the obligation of the Town, just to be clear. NURNEY: Maybe one final question. So, if we went down that path, and we treated this year or next spring, does that commit us to having to do it every year, from then on? So, this is not a one - and -done thing? SNIPES: Right? That's what I was saying at the beginning, this is not a one-year process, you're looking at three to five, to give us a run at it. And then it doesn't mean that Jimmy doesn't come walking in with his socks full of seeds that he came from somewhere else and we're right back at it again. So, there's, 1 say three to five and that's for the ones we have not for the new ones that get blown in brought in dust leveled in however you want to get it here, the landscaper's truck, you know, they drive up there and they eat at the Preserve, or at the parking lot and the trailhead and next thing, you know, it blows out. It happens to us all the time, you know, in our parks, that happens all the time. CRAIG: DJ has Scottsdale started and have they seen any results? From what I recall, like I say it was kind of a side conversation. They have secured the grant. And they have either already started or have detailed plans in place to start. So I was going to actually make that point that we don't here in Fountain Hills don't have to start with a blank sheet of paper, right? We've got the expertise over there. We just need you to know whoever is going to coordinate which may be a volunteer as opposed to a paid staff member. Get the learnings that they've got but they definitely have the grant secured and have either started or are about to start and it is a multi -year program on were there with the grant that they've secured that I that name did not come up in my conversation. So, it may or may not be. WILLARD: So, 1 make a Motion that the MMPC Recommend to the Town that thev Pursue the possibility of a Grant to Address Buffelgrass in the Preserve GRZYBOWSKI: I'll Second that motion IRWIN: 1 have a couple of questions. So, 1 still had a question on the last So about the impact on wildlife, the herbicides. So, from my perspective, I'd like to see like, if I were to if this were my decision, I would want to see a table of all of the options, what the potential output is or outcome. And what the best option is because I think that then I'd like to see Scottsdale and see what they're doing. So 1 don't have any history with buffelgrass. So, I guess it came in from Tucson, then based on what you're saying. And so, it's we're just starting to see it badly here now. Okay, so I mean, I'm 1 rinsrribed by https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES okay with going forward with a grant. But it seems like just saying we're going to do what Scottsdale is doing seems to be a little bit. It seems like we're moving fast without seeing all the facts. WILLARD: How would you propose getting those facts that you'd like to see? IRWIN: Well, I would I mean, I guess it seems like Kevin already has a good idea of everything that's already happened or proposed, you know, the options. And we could just fill the table out with you know, here's all the options. If we do it this way. This is what happens if we don't do it this way. This is what happens because kind of what Bill said, what if we don't do anything? I mean, if this has only been a problem for three years, do we really know it's going to be a big deal in five? Or, or do we have the information from Tucson that says, yeah, that's your six things go crazy? And, you know, I don't know, it just seems like I don't feel like 1 have a ton of information. And I hate herbicides because they kill everything. GRZYBOWSKI: Right, but that's the only way to get rid of awful grass So if we decide not to do anything because of the herbicides, then we don't do anything. So 1 mean, all we're saying here, what the motion is, we're asking Town to look at the grant option. We're not telling him to do anything. We're not saying that they will do anything, we're just saying, hey, it may be worth your time to look at a possible grant option. IRWIN: Okay? Yeah, I'm just, I'm fine with that. I'm just saying, let's not recommend that they do what they do with it when they get it. We are not recommending it. NURNEY: Even so given the timing, we're talking about next spring. SNIPES: 1 think another thing that could possibly be looked into is looking further into Tucson's application and how that's been successful and not successful. And I know that they've had both success and nonsuccess. Sometimes at the same time, you know. So, as I said, weeds are tough, and weeds that seed out a lot are 10 times tougher. It just makes this a really tough one. NURNEY: But Sherry, I think you're making a really valid point, the last thing we would want to do is recommend something that kills the grass, but then kills everything else. IRWIN: Yeah, and the other thing is, you know, just because we do it on North Leg, how long I mean, it will take a week before the seeds come over. I was on Lower Sonoran today and Upper and Lower in the Western Loop. And 1 took pictures because the whole part there's a whole section of the lower Sonoran, where this grass is just, I don't know, I didn't know what buffalo grass was, but I'm guessing that's what this is. I've got pictures here. And I took them so I could ask Bill if that's what they are, but it's crazy. It is like falling grass or buckles. It looks like Ryegrass like the decorative grass that they put out there is that it? HOLDEN: The landscaping companies here were prohibited finally, like two years ago from selling what is actually found grass NURNEY: That's everywhere. Now it's in every neighborhood. Could be but that's not buffalo grass. GRZYBOWSKI: It is not. It's not as bad. It's still bad, but not as bad. NURNEY: Stuffs terrible. by httos:0otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, so back to the motion. SNIPES: Just a reminder to whenever we're talking, make sure you turn your mic on because it makes it very difficult for someone that's behind me and I won't point any fingers and say anything. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, so 1 Second the Motion. So, we can vote on it unless you want to amend it. NURNEY: So, do you know what it we are voting on? I mean, the wording of what it is. LOPUSZANSKI: Back to the verbatim Yeah, exactly what I have Motion for an MMPC to make a recommendation to the Town to oursue the possibility to go for a grant to treat buffelgrass basically is what I have. 1 do want to ask though. Was there a specific grant that you're talking about that we need to look into or one that Scottsdale has named? WILLARD: I think that in terms of the recommendation, it's just a generic request for grant money. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Any opposed? None opposed? Motion carries. Okay, so Item Number 6 Town Council Meeting on lune 20th. which we iust learned at the start of this meeting is actually June 6th, So well be in front of the Town Council, most likely Bill and myself, but everyone's welcome to attend. And it is not just a renaming of trails that will have two agenda items. One is the Renaming of the Trails. And the second one would be for the Approval of Three New Trails that we're requesting, and Bill recommends that we ask for the three trails to be approved first, and then do the renaming. CRAIG: Any chance that they could be put on what is the name of it to get approval? Automatic approval consent? Consent list? GRZYBOWSKI: No. SNIPES: No, we could put it on there. But they'll pull it off. GRZYBOWSKI: There isn't much making it that way, these days. So yeah, well be there June 6 to Bill, and I guess well put a presentation together similar to what we did last time. And well do that June 6. LOPUSZANSKI: If 1 can just add, I will need to have your information two weeks prior so that it can be posted on the agenda for transparency. Thank you. CRAIG: What is the suggestion on information that we put together? Video? GRZYBOWSKI: I mean, we did do a lecture last time, we could do PowerPoint. With some videos and pictures, we're probably going to need the picture of the trails, like you know, a good picture with the potential trails or GPS. We can put some of the pictures of this year's trail building closing like North Leg just to have that on record. So, people see the Trailblazers, you know, finish the North Leg, so they can see progress or something, just to give us some positive before we ask. LOPUSZANSKI: So if I can just let you know that the presentation will be needed no later than May 23rd. i..i .rncr, by https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES CRAIG: Kevin, do you think it's a good idea or not a good idea to have the Trailblazers come with their shirts on? NURNEY: So it looks like we're ready to start digging, right? SNIPES: Yeah, I don't I mean, 1 don't think that's a bad idea. I think there's strength in numbers. And 1 think that any support is good support when it's with the nature of the beast that that we you know, you definitely want to have as many positive supports as you have as you can. In case there's a group that comes in and is negative on it. 1 don't foresee that being a thing, but you never know. So, yeah. CRAIG: Thanks. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, so Item Number 7. is the Discussion Item Around the Changing of the MMPC Charter Working Group Update So Janice, I, and Steve are in that workgroup. We met last week, came a couple. So based on what we had last time, we had three main ideas. One was obviously changing the scope of the MMPC to include other trials, another option was to create, a whole new one, instead of just changing the scope, it could create another commission. And then the new one we just came up with the um, sir, you're not going to like this one, but it is to sunset the MMPC. Just get rid of it. So if you think about it, we're having this discussion. So, the Sonoran Conservancy of Fountain Hills has two other nonprofits within them. So, they have the Trailblazers and also the Desert Botanical Garden program, there are programs within the Trailblazers house. They're all equal. So if you think about what we have here today, the commission is actually an impediment to getting shit done. So if you think about if we sunset to MMPC, most of the major items that we wanted to do when this commission was put together have been accomplished, we got the trailhead, we got a Master Plan, we got the guidelines of the preserve and history. So, for efficiency's sake, if we use the Sonoran Conservancy for what they are there for, they will work directly with staff for any recommendations around the trails, which they sort of kind of do now, and then we have this MMPC There's only focus on the Preserve that kind of gets in the way sometimes. So, it was just another idea that we can just get rid of the MMPC. Recommend sunset it and leave it up to the Sonoran Conservancy to work with the staff. HOLDEN: Or of course all the commissioners could become volunteers. And so they would have an equal, if not, louder voice for the town if we set it up in the right way. And yeah, I'm not. I'm not promoting it necessarily. But it came up and it is an interesting discussion that 1 think we would be remiss if we didn't follow through, which is why Scott's brought it up. IRWIN: So, I'll go back to my last comment. So, what happens? If so, what are the advantages and disadvantages for each of those three? Do we like for this one I'd even I didn't even know like can the conservancy just basically do everything we're doing? Is there some is there an example of something where we've been an impediment before? GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, I mean, every one of these meetings is really an impediment. And we have to follow the Open Meeting Laws to deal with the Commission. We have to have things included on an agenda. So, everything we do is really always in the way. - 10- Tr https:Dotter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES IRWIN: But then how would they? So, let's use the trail renaming. Let's say the conservancy wanted to do the trail, right renaming, how would they do it? If they would just like to put together a PowerPoint and go to the staff? HOLDEN: Not much on much as we did, we gave our report on whether or not we should build three trails, or two trails or one trail, we have a report that we submitted to the commission, but we wouldn't have had to submit it to the commission, that would have been something like our report, but you know, to the Town. NURNEY: And more than three of them together and talk about it at the same time. HOLDEN: And I think this is one of the handicaps that, and you can't, you cannot have a discussion about anything outside of this meeting once a month. If you're on any other conservancy or otherwise, you can meet with them as often as you like. I mean, we have one meeting every month, that is a Board of Directors meeting that is documented. But other than that, you could all come to a meeting as well, you can't because we can't have more than one because Bill and 1 are already sitting there. So we can never have more than one at the Board Meeting. But we could have a meeting anywhere, anytime to discuss issues that are important to not only the Preserve, but we are also responsible for the Desert Botanical Garden in town, and the lake overlook trail. And if we were to expand that, which is some of the things we thought about, to other trails in town the Conservancy, in theory, could do that, too. And simply have a different voice to the town, which the Conservancy right now sort of runs a little bit through here, which is what Bill does when he comes here and we talk about everything related to trailblazing. In fact, that's the Conservancy issue because Trailblazers is part of the conservancy, just like the stewards and the hosts are, yet the stewards and the hosts don't have the same voice because they don't happen to be on the commission, although you guys are also hosts and stewards at times. So, it's just an idea. I don't know, it was something that I understand was brought up several years ago as well to sunset the commission and was decided I wasn't part of it then but it was decided not to. And maybe that's right for that time. But this could be right for this time if we wanted to look at issues that we can't presently deal with because of some of the handicaps that the commission has. IRWIN: Kevin, what do you think about that? SNIPES: Well, 1 agree with what's being said. 1 mean, I think that there's it was originally set up to be Twilighted as soon as the trailhead got built. And once that happened, then there was some more discussion about is there are more things that is important to have the commission here for and it was agreed upon at that time that there was more that needed to be accomplished and be done. I think another option if this were to be sunsetted, would be to have one or two people involved with the CSAC, which is our parks and community services in general. And then that group's scope would be able to expand a little bit to where that incorporates all of what the Community Services are involved in instead of just what it's doing now, which is not being a part of the trails and the [railheads because this group takes care of that. So I think that there's a potential for and that's one of the things that we talked about doing when we talked about sunsetting this originally was doing that and having it be a full Community Services Commission. - 11--,•��sr.iih httos://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES HOLDEN: All right, but CSAC is a commission with the same rules and regulations that we presently have. SNIPES: Right but you wouldn't have all of you on it, I'm talking about having one or two as a liaison back and forth and that would provide a spot, but it would then you wouldn't have all of them going to other things. Like as much as what you do here. This is a more specialized group, right? CRAIG: Another consideration here is what Scottsdale does they have a contract with their Conservancy, which spells out the relationship which we don't have. GRZYBOWSKI: Right, and they actually have paid staff in their Conservancy. Right. Yeah.So just some more thoughts we had as a workgroup, right? And I think one of the things were going to have to do is we have to, we're going to have to document what value we provide as a commission. Right, from now, for the next three years? What kind of value can we bring especially if we don't change anything? If we don't change the scope? What value do we have as a commission just for the Preserve? You know what 1 mean? So, we have to, in the next couple of months, maybe even our summer break, we need to come up with some ideas of what that means. So that we can really have a good discussion of what makes the most sense. Of course, everything's got to be approved by staff. So, you know, we are just going to have to come up with all of our options. Like you're saying, Sherry, we got to have our plan, there's ABC, here's what we think is the best approach or this was like the board recommends, which would be the commission recommended, right? We vote on those things and move forward from that. WILLARD: I mean, I like the idea of saying no, what are the options? And what are the pros and cons? What if we, if we disbanded the commission, and we just had the conservancy go directly to the town. That means that if we had something, whatever the topic is, something like proposing a new trail, the conservancy doesn't have a voice to do that other than as a private citizen showing up. Whereas the commission has the power to say we as an Advisory Commission, recommend to the town to do such and such. But 1 mean, that's part of the pros of cons. There are some significant pros and cons, I think that we need to be thoughtful about and layout and be able to discuss and, so I support going down the path of further flushing out options. HOLDEN: And from the conservancy side, of course, we have to think about how that would change the charter of the conservancy. So now we're suddenly a different, bigger, larger, more strategic which could be a benefit organization than we are presently more the we always say we're the operational arm for the commission, but we really are much more than that. Although we are the doers, the Trailblazers, the Hosts, and the Stewards. So, 1 think it's definitely something and maybe the Conservancy, has to reformulate itself or restructure itself as well and have different, you know, it will, it will change the conservancy a lot, I think, or could and whether or not we'd want to do that. And the problem is we can't meet with the conservancy to talk about it, other than me and Bill. And so that's, I mean, this is one of the real limitations, I can run back go to the Conservancy and kind of, you know, talk about this, but it would be great if you all you guys could be there, and we could sit down together. And that's just never going to happen. - 12 - . 'ned by https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES NURNEY: So we go, on summer break in July. Right. So we have two more meetings. This may just right. In July and August, we're all so there's not a rush. But maybe the working group continues to... SNIPES: Well, I think that we could do a, and I'll have to double-check with Linda. But we could do, as long as we do a public announcement that we're going to have both groups together. Maybe we can do a joint meeting where you guys can discuss good, bad, and the uglies of how this could happen, or why it shouldn't happen either way. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, 1 mean, it's worth asking because the last time 1 checked it was if we are going there with the intent on discussing commission business, that's a no -no because then we have to follow up open meeting laws. Right. SNIPES: So yeah, I would think it would be the other way around. They wouldn't have to come here. Right, because then that what we did with because we just had our CSAC and our.. LOPUSZANSKI: Historic Commission, so they came for a presentation so we He put it out there 1 had in the newspaper. So if we put a Notice of Quorum, Possible Quorum, we can do that. For all of you, but we wouldn't be a special meeting is what it would be. Yeah. SNIPES: So yeah, so we can look into that and get back to you if that's a possibility as well. HOLDEN: Just as a side note, in May, we are done. We have our last meeting in May 1 and our basically we fold it up until September, August, and September, so we could do this for August or September. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, enough discussion on that. item Number 8. which is a segue to Janice Update from the Sonoran Conservancy or Bill, do we have any updates? CRAIG: In terms of Conservancy, and Trailblazers, we have completed the season. If we give a summary, I sort of did in the last email that 1 sent out following our last Saturday work session. Do we need to make anything further to the town? 1 remember giving summaries of each year of how many hours were spent and so forth. Do 1 give that to Patti? SNIPES: Yeah, I think that would be a good way to do it. CRAIG: Can you get it from the last email? HOLDEN: Actually, we're going to put it, Pam is looking to put it together for stewards and hosts for all the people out man hours, manpower, whatever it's called. So, if you have all that when we just put it all together, that'd be great. Then we'll have one document and submit to the commission to the town. That was our plan. WILLARD: Get it directly in front of the town council members, kind of get them sensitized to all the good things going on in the Preserve. GRZYBOWSKI: He has money saved me, called zero and we saved that money. CRAIG: So, this year, we've done maintenance to all trails, the beginning of the year, and at the end of the year, we completed a new trail, the North Leg Trail, all signage is complete new maps, and looking forward to going to the Town Council to make the requests for new trails and naming. - 13- Ini iscriLc'l b https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES NURNEY: Bill did we ever take out there was an extraneous signpost at the entrance to the Lower Ridgeline remember where we put the new signs in there was another post that was just kind of out there. Remember that? GRZYBOWSKI: So yeah, I think so. That's the one that somebody actually took all the way to the end of the Ridgeline. They carried the post all the way to the end. NURNEY: But there was one set in concrete there right? CRAIG: No. To the Lower Ridgeline... NURNEY: Yeah as you're walking out CRAIG: There are two posts with signs on them now. NURNEY: There with a mile marker, not a mile marker, but it's a real marker sign on it. Right. CRAIG: It was a temporary one was that taken out? And all of a sudden it was gone. And as Scott said somebody took to the end of the Ridgeline to do what with GRZYBOWSKI: Probably planted it like at the end and I really Yeah... CRAIG: And it's been brought back. NURNEY: Anyways not there. Okay, never mind. HOLDEN: Just a couple of things, then. The end of all our programs is Saturday is the last and final event that we are holding for this season. We are working on programs for our activities for next fall, we are going to do it in two phases. So we're working to get that to Linda Ayers with the town by May 20. We'll do the best we can but that includes the November Challenge as well, which is put together by the Conservancy and then promoted by the town. We may consider asking for volunteers to patrol through the summer. Well see we haven't actually made that final decision yet but they would be carrying extra water, extra first day that kind of thing for people, so we haven't actually discussed it yet. It'll come up in our meeting on May 1. And any of you guys volunteer, sorry any of volunteers who want to join the final stargazing hike Tonight at eight is welcome. And then Pam said she'll be working on compiling all the hours after this weekend. And well have a recap in our newsletter, but we'll also provide it to the MMPC and the town. So we were on it. I think that is probably. Thank you. If anyone has any ideas they'd like to do for hikes or events next fall, please let me know. GRZYBOWSKI: All right, very good. brings us to Item Number 9 Update on the Status of the Trail Counters. So are they all working? Now? Bill? Is that why this one's on the agenda? Do we get them all fixed? Because I know we're working on a couple of parts. And then we get them all fixed yet. SNIPES: I believe everything is up and running. I just ordered new batteries for all of them. And they actually came in early. So, I have them now and sent out an email this morning. Let him know that whenever he wanted to come to pick them up. We got them. GRZYBOWSKI: Very good. Any other questions on that one? So Number 10. Update on the Status of the Cameras at the Adero Canyon Trailhead? Kevin, do we have an update on that? - 14 - r.00(1 by https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES SNIPES: They're still ordered still ordered? Good news, they're ordered. But that is good news. They are ordered. GRZYBOWSKI: All right. And then Item Number 11 Review and Discussion on the Trail Counter Activity. As you saw the numbers have been quite high in the last couple of months, which is phenomenal. And those are very good numbers. Right and again, we should always have this as part of our, you know, well, it is part of our minutes as part of the record. But we should all keep in the back of our mind how much use our trails, right to have these numbers. So, if someone ever hits you up in town walking around, you're like, oh, yeah, we got to do it at 27,000 people visit, you know, just good to know these numbers, because it is important. And I think, you know, this is something else that Bill and I'll put together for the Town Council agenda and have some of these upfront as well, like, this is what you know, this is how many people we had in our trails, how much use we're getting is how much money we saved. We have all these volunteer hours, right? Set them up with the positive stuff first and then oh, by the way, hey, we want these three new trails. SNIPES: 1 think selling then the number increases is a great way to justify the need for more. GRZYBOWSKI: And well have to be prepared for parking. So, Bill, you and I are going to have to think about if anybody else has any ideas of you know how to solve that problem. But last time, I did some tap dancing on the spot, and it worked. So, this time, I'll be a little more prepared. But there I'm sure it'll come up. CRAIG: Any town thoughts on that Kevin? Parking? SNIPES: I'm still not sure and I'm not convinced that it's a problem more than it is a nuisance. Right. I don't think it's a problem. GRZYBOWSKI: That's why the cameras will help us if we ever get these cameras, right. We'll be able to have some kind of hey on Saturday, every hour look at this. It's not too bad. Oh, it's bad at loam on this particular Saturday, right? SNIPES: It's not something I've had zero complaints called in okay about parking. You know, it's it's not something that comes to us. So the only people that bring it up are us because we know that it overflows. Nobody has driven up there and called me and said, I couldn't hike today and I'm ticked off. NURNEY: No cars have been damaged? SNIPES: Exactly. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, that's good. We'll keep that in the back of our minds too. But, you know, Adero Marriott still dropping people off in flip-flops, that's always going to happen. HOLDEN: And we are trying to work with the hotel to get them to change some of their information. But it's been slow, to say the least. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, what they tell them, they have the hike information wrong. HOLDEN: And they send people up there with flipflops and no shoes and no water and then they tell them it's a nice moderate hike on the Western Loop and that's where they send them seriously. -15- by https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES That's what the paper says. So, we've kind of told them it could be a liability. But you know, it's pretty, that's what they're doing. So, we're trying to stop to get them to correct that. SNIPES: Do you think that there could be a recommendation that we could give to them to give out instead of them giving out their information? HOLDEN: We tried to give them the chart that DJ created just to say why don't you use what we left with them. We've tried to teach it to them, but we can't make sense. CRAIG: A board member from the Conservancy has a couple of times gone to the person who made that chart, and we are still getting the drivers and people coming up saying, "Oh, we want to do that moderate loop we see here." HOLDEN: Although no one's ever, like, I've never heard of anybody getting hurt, which is kind of amazing. But they go up there with flip Flops and when you stop them, because when you're a trailhead host, and you actually see them doing this with a little piece of paper. And you know, like, you know, you really, you really want to do this. So you, blah, blah, blah and when they start, they come back and like, Oh my God, thank God, you were there to tell me and you think well, what would have happened if we when we are not here, which is so much of the time, but anyway, so yeah, that's that. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, Item Number 12. Future Agenda Items. The only thing I can think of right now is that we'll have a Town Council Presentation dry run. So, it'd be great that Bill and I'll have this ready to present to you will sit here like the Town Council, play devil's advocate. Just do. WILLARD: So just from a timing standpoint. Our next meeting is on May 23rd and the deadline to get the Agenda Item in is May 23rd. So, we are a day late or are we okay? GRZYBOWSKI: Well close the business. Make changes on the fly. LOPUSZANSKI: Well, that's Linda the Town Clerk's deadline, so 1 can work with her. So we'll work on that. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. Yeah, good point. LOPUSZANSKI: Are you saying you'll have a PowerPoint? Okay, so then we can have all that set up ahead, we can put it on the screen, and you'll be ready to go. Perfect. Thank you. CRAIG: The other item is the paving or whatever it is of the promenade, following the gate. Any further word on that? SNIPES: So that's part of our budget supplement and it hasn't come out yet. Okay. It stayed in the budget. GRZYBOWSKI: So that's a plus doesn't mean it's there. Yeah. But keep it, keep it. SNIPES: But because it's a safety thing. I think that it didn't get any negative feedback when I brought it up. So I don't know what will happen next. GRZYBOWSKI: When does our fiscal year start July 1? Okay, so they're going through the budget process now. SNIPES: We got our tentative approval Tuesday, and then June, sometime in June, they do the official adoption, but in history, if it gets through the next one, then usually were pretty good. CRAIG: What do you have on design right now, with how far up to go? - 16 - 2.d https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES SNIPES: It's been a while since I last looked at that. But I want to say that we did 20 feet wide, 100 feet long is what we ran with. So, it gets us up and around that corner, and gives us some leeway as far as we could go a little wider in the beginning if we wanted to. But we have the ability to do some good things. And it may end up being in you know, when we get out there and start looking at it if we find a spot that we think makes more sense or, you know, it's a fluid operation as far as to how we make it as safe as possible. Getting this funding and then using it the way that we see fit. NURNEY: Have we had any known injuries this hiking season from people slipping? SNIPES: Not that I've heard of. It seems like there are a lot of slips, but I haven't heard no one's called anything in 1 don't know if you know of any that from the Okay, then not that we're aware of. GRZYBOWSKI: 1 usually slip at least once going down. It's usually down. Well, that's important or myself, you know, so. SNIPES: But you didn't call and tell me. GRZYBOWSKI: No. All right. So Item Number 13. lust an update. HOLDEN: Sorry, can 1 just go back to our commission meeting on the 23rd? Can we invite the Conservancy and the board to see and preview it? I don't mean the entire concert. Every board knows that we can all shoot holes at it. And of course, they can't speak but okay. Well, they could do it right now. Use the notes afterward, somehow. Okay. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, I think because last time Bill and I didn't do that. 1 think it's a great idea since we have the time. We'll do the dry run here. LOPUSZANSKI: Scott, they can do a Public Comment. HOLDEN: They can't give a Public Comment, but it would be after, right? They cant make Public Comment. Okay. Actually, yeah? Okay. GRZYBOWSKI: They can do a public comment. Absolutely. But they haven't seen the presentation yet. Yeah. It'd be speculating it would be speculating. JENNINGS: Could you just move public comments to the end? LOPUSZANSKI: Well, the posting is the packet will be posted in published. So, we could have them review it once posted to the public, and it's on the website. So, they would be able to, before at least review the PowerPoint, if you have the PowerPoint, if you have things ready. We can always tweak whatever you do for the Town Council meeting, but at least you would have something that they could look at ahead of time, and then they could have Public Comment. Does that make sense? GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, it makes sense. 1 forgot about that. Right? That'll be there. Because I'll have like well have like a week to get it. We can get it done two weeks before the 23rd. What I'll do is we'll do our first draft Bill and 1 and then we'll have Patti send it out to all of you and then you could give her comments back to Patti, that's how the system works. So, 1 can't send it off to you myself. Right. Okay, any other anything? If there's nothing else, we can Adjourn the meeting at exactly 1700. All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: All right. We're Adjourned - 17- https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION APRIL 27, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: All right. We're Adjourned Having no further business, Chair Grzybowski adjourned the Regular Meeting of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission on April 27, 2023, at 1700 (5:00 PM) MCDOWEL OUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION S t Grzybowski, Chair ATTEST AND PREPARED BY: Patti Lopuszanski, Exeedive Assistant CERTIFICATION 1 hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Regular Meeting held by the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission in the Town Hall Council Chambers on the 27th day of April 2023. 1 further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. DD this 23rd day of May 2023. Patti Lopuszanski, Expzbtive Assistant - 18 - Tr II r l )e[1 by httpsl/otter.ai