Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutMMPC.2023.0523.MinutesMCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 A Regular Meeting of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission was convened at 16705 E. Avenue of the Fountains in open and public session at 5:01 p.m. Members Present: Chair Scott Grzybowski; Vice Chair Steven Nurney; Commissioner Bill Craig; Commissioner Janice Holden; Commissioner Sherry Irwin; Commissioner Brian Jennings; Commissioner DJ Willard Staff Present: Interim Community Services Director Kevin Snipes; Executive Assistant Patti Lopuszanski Audience: None https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES Post -Production File TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 23, 2023 MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MEETING VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES Transcription Provided By: https://Otter.ai Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. https:/lotter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, let's call the meeting to order at 1701. Roll Call, please. LOPUSZANSKI: Chairman Grzybowski. GRZYBOWSKI: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Vice Chair Nurney. NURNEY: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Craig CRAIG: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Holden HOLDEN: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Irwin IRWIN: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Jennings JENNINGS: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Willard WILLARD: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: If you'd like to change the agenda order, it's fine. GRZYBOWSKI: I figured that would make sense because it's Report by Commissioners. So, with that, I passed out these Frequently Asked Questions. Again, this will be something that we could edit, and update, and the plan is that this is going to be an attachment to the presentation to the Town and as part of their agenda, so were hoping to foresee questions they will ask thanks to Janice who did a lot of this already. So, I know, Bill already has some changes, but this is here for you. So, as were going through the presentation, because you're going to be a good Town Council Member, as were acting up here, and you've already read all this, right? All right. We don't know the agenda item yet. So, we'll be up here for Agenda Item X. Mayor, Town Council Members, and Staff, I'm glad to be here this evening. You haven't seen us for quite a while from the MMPC so here we are to give you a presentation about those two agenda items, which I will say are the items which I don't know, at the moment. So, before we get started, well quickly give you an overview, with some background information. We're going to talk about the organizations and the purpose of those organizations and how the trails are maintained and built. We're going to highlight the volunteer hours and cost savings; we're going to talk about trail usage. We re going to talk about how we vetted the trails. Then were going to get into the potential new trails request. And then once that agenda item is completed, we will move on to the other agenda item XYZ, which would be the Trail Renaming request. As part of your packet, you also have some frequently asked questions. Please refer to that as we're going through this presentation. Because I know you all read it already. But just in case, I probably won't say that. Okay, so very quick background. Some of you have already seen Bill and I up here before. But its important to note that first of all, the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission or the MMPC is part of this. We have the Sonoran Conservancy of Fountain Hills as part of our organizations that oversee our trails, we have the Trailblazers, and we have of course, the Fountain Hills Parks and Recreation. I'll point over to Rachael because she's our staff or somebody, you know. So first of all, when we talk about MMPC, we've got some guiding principles that I think will help highlight the importance of what we're here for tonight. So first of all, item number one would be to maintain the natural beauty of the preserve. We've got to minimize human impact within the preserve, which of course includes non -essential facilities within the preserve commercialization that preserve prioritization of conservation over development. And I will https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES have in my notes what this thing is zoned for. I forgot what it is there's like OSC opens space. Yeah, anyway, I will have that note in my head, okay? Because they may ask what type of zoning of the Preserve, is right because you'll have Cl and C2 for residential commercial. That Preserve is got an OSC designation. Conservation, I think open space conservation. I'll have those notes in my back pocket. I think when were here today to talk about the potential trails, I think Number 3 is probably the most important. We want to be able to provide public access to and within the preserve that encourages a positive and safe experience so people can get out and enjoy that environment. And again, I've provided some links to the various websites where this information can be found. So, let's talk about Sonoran Conservancy Fountain Hills. Again, here's a link to their website, it's a nonprofit that protects and promotes Fountain Hills McDowell Mountain Preserve the Desert Botanical Gardens, Lake Overlook Trail for the benefit of the community. I'm not going to read all these items. I probably won't say that out loud. But anyway, I'll jump ahead too. They offer hiking educational events to inform the public about our unique Sonoran Desert. Again, they organize and train the volunteers, trailhead hosts, hikes, and Trailblazers. You can subscribe to their email if you haven't already done that. That brings us to the Trailblazers. So again, the Trailblazers are volunteers that design, build and maintain the town trails. It is an organization that falls under the Sonoran Conservancy of Fountain Hills. The work is organized to well plan manual labor using only hand tools. We have some great pictures to show that, again, it's led by Bill Craig with several crew leaders. I'm one of those crew leaders, myself. And again, experienced leaders train and supervise other volunteer Trailblazers so that we were safe when were out there. And again, its a great Saturday morning, while were in season to get out there to spend your Saturday morning. When were out there many of you have already seen this, but we always receive positive feedback from our hikers. This was taken from the Sonoran Trail, and I call it the Saguaro Valley. These are a lot of young saguaros. I just thought it was really cool. So put that in there. Beautiful view from that particular trail. HOLDEN: I won't change anything. Are the pictures were talking about here the preserve? This is a trail nice. GRZYBOWSKI: If we could put it right after this one right to break it up right after the MMPC. Because here's a picture of the Preserve. HOLDEN: Right about the trail. We could be because it's much more right now. I guess my second question was something and he didn't really know what the MMPC versus the Conservancy and I don't want to get into a whole long thing that they don't know what you're talking about, especially when we make a mistake. I'm just wondering if he is there's just an umbrella statement in there that you pay, it doesn't have to say that says you know the McDowell Mountain Preserve is the organization that has the responsibility for and the link to the Town where the mouthpiece to the town. And as I always describe it, the Conservancy is sort of the operational arm. So, they are the Trailblazer of the four things maybe just because I don't think you're talking to people who know. GRZYBOWSKI: Good point. WILLARD: Yeah, I think I mean, the Town Council has whatever their subcommittees are to go through and interview people for all the various commissions. So, I think they will have an understanding of what the commission fits into everything because they have been involved with that part of it. But what they probably don't know is exactly what you said. IRWIN: I bet the new ones don't know. And I have a question. How much time do we have Scott? Do you know? httas://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: There's apparently there's no limit. But you know, I'm hoping to keep it around 15 to 20 minutes. IRWIN: Yeah, because I'm looking at the slides and I think that's what you're going to need. Do we need 15 to 20 minutes? Do we really need to go into all this? I mean, now that I see it, as you're presenting and I'm like, do we really need all this info? Because really, the goal is to get the trails approved. Right. And renamed. WILLARD: Yeah, back to Janice's point, and you're backing her up I think is this an opportunity for an educational background because they probably haven't been exposed. GRZYBOWSKI: We have three new council members that haven't seen any of us up front. So, it's probably worth it you know. I'm a fast talker anyway, so I'll blow through these. SNIPES: And I would say you may, knowing the schedule and what's on this agenda, you may want to try and make that 10 to 15. And so that 15 to 20 just because it's going to get to you know, there's so mammoth on there, mammoth our next two are both mammoth but I think that would be better. I have not seen the actual agenda on it yet. But I'm hoping towards the beginning. Yeah. And I'll reach out to Linda and see what she's got going and see if we can negotiate that anyway. Right along with the budget. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, so, good notes, move some pictures around earlier. We're going to be up to figure out a blanket statement about what SCFH does and the operations arm versus MMPC is a kind of oversight. We talked about that. In, we talked we're going to move this picture up earlier and I have a few others I may throw in here. I got some other great cactus shots, you know, things like that. Right, I got a great panoramic view of everything even got Tom's Thumb in there all the way I may put that in there. We have till tomorrow to get this to her Patti. Okay. All right. LOPUSZANSKI: Yes, by 6 pm. GRZYBOWSKI: So, you know, as we were talking about trails, how do we build trails, a few of you have seen these pictures from last year, right? But I have to point out that Bill here, our lovely leader, we've already learned that when you see a big rock over here has circled on the left, it most likely is going to need to get moved. And then as you see the final after shot, there we are moving the rock. And then as you see me, I'm the younger guy of the crew. I'm always the rock mover and I do appreciate the exercise. So that's how we move rocks, we manually move them either by hand or with a net. Right and you know, so me and the pickaxe and the pickaxe lost, right? So, I have to show this one, right? So sometimes we have to actually just get at it. Then this year this past season we did open the North Leg Trail. This is our temporary sign before we got the real signs up there and very proud of that. Here's our lovely Trailblazers in their lime green shirts for safety. So, as we're going through the agenda, I think it's important to point out all the volunteer hours that are put into everything we did, first of all the cost to the Town is zero. As a matter of fact, we've estimated based on national volunteer estimates that we save the town nearly $72,000 last season. And I will have to say we were not able to account for all the admin hours. So, I believe the cost savings would be even higher. We have not accounted for that. And as you can see, you could just very quickly go through here the Trailblazers, trailhead hosts how many hours were put in, how many shifts were worked, the stewards that lead hikes, how many events? How many participants we had at those events? LOPUSZANSKI: Could you put your mic on, please? NURNEY: So just a minor point, the numbers don't match. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, they don't. Good point. Yeah, I don't know why I did that. There was something that I did. Good point. I'll check it out. It's minor. Maybe I just copied it. https://ottecai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES HOLDEN: Okay. So, it's rounded off. GRZYBOWSKI: But there are some detailed people that we should make sure they match. I will do that. And then just to highlight the amount of trail uses that we got last year. And as we look at these numbers, just note that these statistics are not unique visits, but rather the number of passes by the trail counters. So of course, that would count for going to and coming back. Right. So, it's very difficult to kind of know, actually do the math. But if you look at it, you know, we had over 81,000 visits or trail counter passes just at Adero Canyon Trailhead, Promenade Trail, right parking lot itself almost 69,000 clicks Lake Overlook Trail from an individual trail perspective always has the highest number, right, because it's very convenient right there by Fountain Park about 42,000. Then the actual parking is not included in the total numbers for all the trails, which says that 188,000 clicks down the bottom. So, as we're getting to ask you for these new trails, it's important, again, to highlight how we vetted these trails. So again, these trails were vetted by using the Trail Master Plan of 2022. A link here, if you've already haven't had a chance to read that the proposed trails were approved by the MMPC. And also, worked with Sonoran Conservancy Fountain Hills to come up with a process to get them as well. So, both trails above this just again, highlight both trails above the Sonoran and Bill's going to show you those pictures here shortly have zero impact on any homeowners and have breathtaking phenomenal views . And then the Overlook Trail, we will add a connector to the Easy Access Trail. And actually, the hikers recommended this option and Bill's going to show you those pictures in about one minute. So here we go. I don't have the laser pointer, but that's your clicker. CRAIG: Good evening. Let me get this correct. I'm going to start by showing you the extension of the Overlook Trail, which we are going to request your permission to build to give you some orientation. I have started with a slide that shows you the relationship of the extension which is the white trail here to the border which is the light -yellow trail going all the way down to Shadow Canyon and the homes and Shadow Canyon. Further in terms of orientation Nope, this one doesn't work. I will point out where the trailhead and parking are on the right the magenta is the recent trail that we completed the North Leg Trail. To give you a little closer look at this on the upper left is the peak of the Overlook Trail. On the bottom right is the end of the Easy Access. A little bit more orientation -wise, the Overlook Trail, and the Easy Access Trail which goes off of the Overlook Trail were the first two trails built by the Trailblazers quite a few years ago? The Overlook Trail is approximately half a mile it is the path that you see. And that is coming up the ridge from the parking lot about a half mile to a peak. Easy Access conies off of it and was originally built for people who have a little more difficulty hiking, and I am told even used for wheelchair access. The extension that we are proposing is forming a loop from the top of the Overlook Trail back down to the Easy Access Trail. That was a proposal made by a hiker and we really liked the idea because loops are the most sought-after type of trails throughout hiking. We feel that this would be a wonderful experience for the beginning hikers where they have a loop to hike on as opposed to just out and back. And this trail is presently the Overlook Trail the trail which is most often presented and encouraged by the trailhead hosts for a large number of beginning hikers that we have coming up to the Preserve. Now let me go over to the other two trails. First, let me show you the overview on the far left and I would point this out is the trailhead. If you follow the Promenade Trail, which is the Jeep Trail that you see when you look up into the McDowells which have the Preserve in them. The Jeep Trail is about eight -tenths of a mile. Halfway along you see the magenta trail again, that is the North Leg Trail, which we just completed. Where you see the lime green trail start is the end of the Promenade. The two new trails are the lime green and the red trail the middle trail there, the lime green is a trail that to me has a lot of desirability in terms of along the trail. There are quite a number of unique saguaros it is a trail that https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES gives a little higher elevation looking down on the town. There is one spot along the trail that I specifically like which is a little place for contemplation there along the side of it a beautiful mesquite tree and about 20 yards away a rock wall with some rock below it, which is nice to be sitting on and an experience which you don't often find in our area. GRZYBOWSKI: I have a picture that I'm going to add. Okay, before you start talking about this trail you want to do it right after? CRAIG: Well, how about after, and then I can click on it. Yeah, I'll put it in there. Okay. And the picture of that tree. Yeah. And is it okay with you if I switch the order of these? So, we do the extension to the Overlook Trail first? I think there's less controversy there and Tess apt to get questions on. This gives a little closer view of this trail. The second trail is unique in terms of difficulty. If you'll notice where it starts, you can't see it really well. But this is a starting point up on the Western Loop Trail, and there is a difference of around 350 feet in elevation, that they're going to have to hike to get to the start of this trail. This trail will have more up and down in it, it will be a definitely an experience for those who want a more difficult trail. Most of our other trails are of moderate difficulty, other than the Western Loop. And both of these trails we feel give a unique experience within our Preserve. From here, we feel that there are probably some questions and we have fielded a handout here, which will address some of the questions which we anticipate and try to answer for you beforehand. GRZYBOWSKI: What do you think about the frequently asked questions? WILLARD: Do you anticipate building additional trails after these? GRZYBOWSKI: We do not. As part of that Trail Master Plan. Basically, we had three potential new trails in the works and that's a 10-year plan. I mean, things could change, of course in the future. But right now, with us standing here, we don't anticipate any new trails. HOLDEN: Would it make sense to include the map that shows where the Sonoran trails are? CRAIG: There's the Sonoran that you see, it's right, GRZYBOWSKI: This is perfect. I could be sitting here while Bill's talking. But I can help out as well. HOLDEN: Is the green line the Sonoran? NURNEY: No, the one below it. CRAIG: And what I'll try to do to what I think I missed is not putting the border between us and Eagle Ridge. And I should probably add that. GRZYBOWSKI: This one is the Sonoran and this was the Lower Sonoran. HOLDEN: Placing them for someone who doesn't quite know what they are looking at maybe? NURNEY: Patti when you sent the draft around, I sent you my comments. I'm not sure If they got in, because... WILLARD: They're in there. NURNEY: Yeah. Okay. So, I have this is no criticism in any way, shape, or form here. First of all, I think it's going to be really tough to get this done in 10 minutes. So, you might, want to think about and focus on... Well, probably too much if we only have 10 minutes, and we go through all the other stuff that Scott went through, but just think about it. Think you're going to have to think about moving the pace along. But my bigger concern, I think is what Janice brought up there. Some of our audience has probably never been to the Preserve. Right is that possible? GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, it's possible so I know when I gave the tour in the Leadership Academy, and I briefed them at the ACT. Right at the ramada? So, I know two of them were part of the Fountain Hills Leadership Academy. So, I know they at least they've been to the trailhead. https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES NURNEY: I think my concern is being at the trailhead is one thing, but that is not. That doesn't mean they're familiar with a Preserve And I have to say that in all the work that we've done over a couple of years now that I've been involved here, I still get a little bit confused and I'm pretty good with spatial orientation. But I still get a little confused when I see these 3D, Google Earth maps with the overlays on them, maybe it's just, my brain isn't working the same way everybody else's But when you show like this picture, and I agree, Bill, you need to point you know, have your pointer out so you can orient people. And you can't assume when you say that this one begins at the Western Loop, that that's going to mean anything to anybody. So, I was just thinking that you know, is there a way that we have a big - picture view of the Preserve'? And just say, because I think what we have to do is say, this is what were asking you for your approval of. And this is why those are the two questions or two things we have to answer. So, I think, here's the big view this is the Preserve, here are all the current trails and these are the new ones that were thinking about. JENNINGS: Maybe we've put these really rough when you NURNEY: I don't have a good solution. But I just think that people, even I for some reason the Sonoran in this picture, you know, I get this one. But this one. This one I even have a hard time orienting myself to.... JENNINGS: Yeah, I agree. It's, I mean, without the existing trails on there its hard and I think it would be easier to understand in 2D than using Google, but you've got a pretty limited timeframe to get things done. Yeah, that's probably not going to happen overnight. GRZYBOWSKI: We gave at least one or two references for each picture. So, you got the North Leg Trail over on the right and the magenta. And we have the Ridge Line and green to kind of frame them. And then here we're talking about, as you said, Shadow Canyon below your reserve boundary. NURNEY: Can you put like a big star or something like here's the parking lot, or you know, just something that anybody could say, okay, I get where we are now, anyway, where you're talking about? I don't know, I don't have a good solution. SNIPES: I think, for sure, you should do something with the parking lot, just because that's the anchor. And as you said, they've been at the ramada. So, then they can at least go it's from here. To wherever or right here make it a little bit. Yeah, it s, yeah, make it more significant. Yeah. NURNEY: Or, if it's not even on the view that you're showing with your pointer, you can see it's just to give you some orientation in the parking lot would be right here. GRZYBOWSKI: But we could put a not -the -scale big star or something out here. Instead of a bigger pin, yeah, right up in here, just so it's easy to see the parking lot. SNIPES: So, you're saying it's very easy to figure out? NURNEY: Well, that's the problem. Right? I think we have to assume these people know what we're talking GRZYBOWSKI: Definitely put a bigger picture or pin for the parking lot. IRWIN: So we have a reference point, Scott, how about this, I wonder if we should reorder the whole thing and start at the beginning. I liked whoever said it, this is our agenda, we want to get two things done here today, we want to get some trails renamed and we want to get approval for a couple more, and then jump into this. And that way, if we end up getting too many questions or going over, we get to the important stuff. And then if we have time at the end, then we go through and just so you know. And maybe you have the first slide, well say this is where we're here as MMPC this is what we do. This little intro, and then all of the other kind of peripheral or corollary slides with the Trailblazers and other stuff, kind of at the end as the aftermath. I just found out that I was looking for this really cool spot that I like httos://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES on the high trail. I've talked to you guys about this before and did this with you DJ. I don't know if you guys know Relive App. It basically does a video of your track. And so I can play it in video and it's got all the pictures and that one cool spot that I had of the 4 Saguaros is in there. It takes like five seconds. I'll show it to you Scott and you can decide but it also gives some of the views so maybe along with your idea put more of the slides in the pictures. So, I don't know I think you're right about the I think this is better than the map though. I think the 3D is better than the map. And so maybe anchoring with a parking lot is the best solution right now. NURNEY: Yeah, that's the one thing everybody can orient themselves to. Yeah, and to Sherry's point, you know, in my professional career, I made a lot of really important presentations, and with a lot of them, I saved the best for last and never got there. It gets so frustrating. Oh, geez, you know. GRZYBOWSKI: So, I think, very good point, we'll reorder the slides. We'II start off with why were here. These are the two agenda items. This is what were asking for. And well have a picture or two of the trail. Here's a picture of this for review. And then boom, we'll go right into Bill. And then well have all the other slides, but well have well have the overview. Here's MMPC right, and the word SCFH is the operational arm where the planning and the oversight are. And here's why were here today. We already said that and then well talk about cool stuff. And then we'll talk about putting the fun slides in about trailblazing though, and then well get into Bill. WILLARD: Just the one other thing, and I'm kind of going back to one of Kevin's early comments is we need to recognize where the audience is coming from. And where the audience comes from is the budget. And that's going to be hopefully with this. This is going to be in front of the budget. And they're going to say let's get going here, guys. And so, I think that we should assume that they've done their homework or that they can read the slide when it's up there. And kind of get it up there and make a comment or two and say, Guys, if you have questions, please stop me. But I'm going to move on because you've got a lot of other things to do tonight. So yeah, just the thought. HOLDEN: Just another thought. And it's long. And I think I mean; I think it's good. There's a lot of good information here. But it's a lot. And I'm wondering, and I know we've already voted on this, do you want to reconsider not going to the trail renaming? Because that's like a whole other. So, all this stuff that we've done already, is on how long? 15 minutes? Maybe we take the Trail Renaming in September, what's the difference? We're not going to do it before then I know we have voted on it. It's just a thought because then you're going to have to explain trails that have already been complicated by people not knowing what you're talking about exactly with renaming them. It's just a thought. WILLARD: Yeah. The other side of that is I think, you know, again, from a Town Council standpoint, they probably want to hear what the commission talking about trails be done. GRZYBOWSKI: Well, the thing is, yeah, so WILLARD: I would think we could.. JENNINGS: Yeah, I think it would be just a quick add -in. And I don't think there'll be a whole lot of questions about renaming. GRZYBOWSKI: We hope not. JENNINGS: And I might, like, you had a lot of statistics in there about man hours, and that sort of stuff and trail visits, you might put those at the end of the presentation and use them for answering questions. Why do we need more trails? Well, here, take a look. We had this many visits to our trails, we need more trails, GRZYBOWSKI: We had this many visits in our trails, we need more trails, Tess education but keep them as background or backup slides for questions. And we'll get to the point. https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES CRAIG: I have another question. What if they say "Why do you need to trails up there? Why don't you just put one? And I think in your comments, you did a good job of differentiating that these are two very different flavors of trail. So, I think you did a good job of covering that. But what if they say Hey choose one? Maybe it won't come to that? What if they say to choose one? I think Scott and I differ and some of the rest of you differ on one. GRZYBOWSKI: But I like to hike one. Because it's cool. They could ask us what our opinion is because they could decide they could do whatever they want. They could make a motion to approve only one. And then they could all vote on it. And we have nothing to say they could ask our opinion like Bill says, and if we do, you know, I should at least be united. We're going to do well do the middle trail. HOLDEN: But you could say that the commission reviewed it and it's part of the vetting process. The Commission decided that all three trails were the recommendation it fit the 10-year plan that we had already prepared and presented and approved. GRZYBOWSKI: Well, we already said that right? HOLDEN: And if they say only two or I don't think they'll vote right there, would they be good? Okay. SNIPES: One of the things that you might do as well, as far as trying to get them on board with what you've done is talk about the background of so, you know, we looked at multiple different scenarios, multiple different trails, multiple different names, and make sure that they understand that you've whittled things down to this. And having that, you know, to where that it doesn't look like, you know, we throw a whole bunch of stuff out now were hoping that you'll follow. I think letting them know that you took it seriously. And you've come up with final selections? JENNINGS: Yeah, yeah. These were the results of working groups and many hours of discussions. GRZYBOWSKI: making those there now and discussions, and this is what we came up with? Correct. It's all its in that it's in the frequently asked questions as well. This is our final recommendation. CRAIG: What is where are we then relative to renaming? Go ahead with it. Yeah, I would say we go with it. Okay. HOLDEN: That's not that they have nothing to do. I mean, in a way, they have nothing to do with each other the new trails that were asking for within the plan, and the renaming, which is they're not we're not renaming new trails. GRZYBOWSKI: There's no renaming of the extension. HOLDEN: Okay. All right. SNIPES: Let's make sure that we were I get that we're all over the place. But let's make sure that were hitting the miss because otherwise all of this goes for naught. So don't forget that. JENNINGS: So, Bill, you've gone before Council before? CRAIG: Yes. JENNINGS: And are they inquisitive? Do they have a lot of questions, or do they just want to rely on the committee? CRAIG: Previously, there were a few questions. Very few. We have no idea what the status of the council will be, hopefully, with the other agenda items. There won't be much in the way of questions. We don't anticipate anything really from the audience in terns of questions. HOLDEN: We do plan to send it out to our volunteers for the conservancies. And you won't get that. If SCFH volunteers ask them, encourage them to fill out the cards to put it in their vote of approval if they do and make sure that we get Tots of cards that say, oh, yeah, three great trails. CRAIG: Correct. The more I think the more of those we get the Tess chance there probably is for the council to turn down or ask questions. - 10 - , httos://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, well, well do the same for the Trailblazers again, we'll resend that email. Oh, that's right they are the Conservancy. HOLDEN: So if you get it just saying I don't I don't remember if WILLARD: I didn't catch it. If you just emphasized in your comments, that there are zero homeowners impact. GRZYBOWSKI: I did say that it was in that slide. So when I reorder the slides tomorrow, I will kind of give one like, like Sherry says one quick overview slide. Here's why we're here. Here's what we think. And I'll make sure that has zero impact on there and zero cost, which is the ones remember, you don't want death by PowerPoint. So just a couple of bullets. And we'll get that as one of the first slides. And then that's a great idea, because then if we just do that get to the pictures. And then if they have questions, we could pop to the other slides. They've already got the slides in the packet, right? Yeah, they're going to have all that stuff, at least two weeks at a time. Well, now maybe to one of these No not two weeks. We have to get everything in two weeks. Two days before 48 hours. LOPUSZANSKI: It usually goes out Thursday night prior to the Tuesday meeting. GRZYBOWSKI: So, they may have five days to review. All right, great. Thanks for all the feedback and input and well get through this. So again, Item Number 3 are there any other Reports by Commissioners anything fun you saw? Exciting trails? HOLDEN: The report from the Conservancy will be that chart that you showed, which I don't have with me. But you know, with all the number of volunteers and how many they did, it's a pretty impressive number. So that's all that I was going to report. All right. GRZYBOWSKI: Do we have a CaII to the Public and Item Number 4? LOPUSZANSKI: We do not. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. So, Item Number 5 our Consideration of Possible Action for the Approval of April 27, 2023 MMPC Verbatim Meeting Minutes. Is there anybody with any comments? Pretty much simple when they're verbatim because we can't correct anything because that's what we said. I Motion to Move to Approve the minutes as written. WILLARD: I Second. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: No, opposed. Very good. Motion carries. Item number 6. So we just talked about the review and discussion of the draft Town Council, meeting presentation, and great feedback, I will try to get those updates done tomorrow and get them to Patti. Item number 7 Discussion and Possible Action of the Proposal of Invasive Plant Working Group. HOLDEN: It is non-native invasive plants because we've got all kinds of native invasive ones. And it's okay. Its not on the list. It's confusing. I think. I know, we had a discussion on this last month. And I guess my and what we ended up doing was kind of tuming it over to the Town saying, Okay, you figure out how to get the grant, and then well figure out what to do. And I think that's a little maybe backward. And that if this is the preserve that the commission is dedicated to, why would the commission not want to set up a working group that does an investigation, we talked last month correctly about we don't want her besides. Well, okay, well, what does that mean? What are the options, are there options? Or you're stuck? I don't know the answer, Sherry. I mean, we don't know. So I think it would be if you want to talk about the purpose of the Commission, which is one of the tasks one of the working groups that we are looking at, I dont see why we are putting it on the Town, even though I know we took about without doing some of the research and investigation and make a recommendation ourselves to each other, - 11 - httas://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES and then to the Town with how we think we should go. And that was really my thought. Otherwise, I don't know how the town's going to look for a grant when we don't even know what were looking at, other than to look at the same grant that came out of Tucson or that the Conservancy in Scottsdale is using. So that was just that was my thought. And I just wanted to raise it as a suggestion. CRAIG: Just a comment that there are more places in Town that might have to deal with the invasive plants than just the Preserve So I still question whether relative to the Preserve Yes I agree. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, I mean, I think I don't have an issue with you know, doing a workgroup. That's what were here for. Right. So, if we all agree that we should just have a workgroup that talks about this. I know Sherry had some ideas. Last time we talked in Janice. So, I already see two potential workgroup people, unless Janice doesn't want to be on it. WILLARD: But I'd like to see, you know, just get Kevin's perspective on this. SNIPES: Well, I think I think it's a good idea that you know, the more information we gather, the better off we are. And it doesn't mean that I won't be looking for stuff and or other staff. But it doesn't mean it can't happen in conjunction, you know, I agree with Bill, it may end up being a town -wide thing. But it doesn't mean that it doesn't need a grassroots start to kick it off, so to speak. No pun intended with the grass. So that's my fault. That's my fault. I felt it as it was going out. So, um, but yeah, I think that's a good idea. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, then, who would like to volunteer for the working group? Volunteers, we need at least three. No, more than three? I mean, you could have two. HOLDEN: Do we have to, in my opinion, that says at all, there's no purpose for the I mean, what if the commission doesn't care enough? And nobody wants to do the work? Then it's just not an issue. And maybe it's not. I don't understand the purpose of the commission. But that was my thought. NURNEY: No, I agree with you Janice. I think maybe the first step of this workgroup is to define what the workgroup's responsibility is. HOLDEN: Nobody wants to step forward and do the work. NURNEY: I would participate in a group that defines the scope of this workgroup, sub group or task force, whatever we're going to call it will entail. HOLDEN: I also know this was raised by the Conservancy or at our last conservancy meeting, I raised it there stressing I guess emphasizing some concern that if this is a concern to somebody, then who's whose responsibility it is, and conservancy sort of also felt that this was a preserve issue. And so I commissioned a commission issue, not a conservancy so much as a conservancy issue. If we are the kind of operational arm, that's just the easy way to describe it, then I think this is one of those issues that kind of lives at the 30,000-foot level in terms of a strategic evaluation and discussion and research, and its work. So that was my only thought. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, I mean, I think that's I mean, so again, we need some people that want to do this. We could do the work. I mean, to me, the definition of the workgroup would be to propose a strategy for our non-native invasive plant species, what are we going to do? We already know they're here. It's not like we have to do that step above. NURNEY: Its I lost my train of thought, but it's to determine if we even have an issue that needs to be dealt with. Right. And then how do we deal with? GRZYBOWSKI: Yes, we are we are all assuming we have an issue. But you're right. I think you're right. We should. NURNEY: We know we have one issue right now. But next year, we might have a different issue. Right. So, you know, we and I agree that this commission should have that responsibility for at least - 12 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES bringing to the attention of the town council that we have an issue. This is the issue. It's a serious issue. If it is, these are the ways that that issue could be addressed. And this is what we recommend, and then we step away. WILLARD: I am willing to serve. NURNEY: If DJ does, I will. Okay. GRZYBOWSKI: Any other takers? HOLDEN: If you guys do it, I'll do it. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. Okay, so we have a working group formed. Okay, that's fair. So right now we do have.... HOLDEN: This is kind of a higher level than the working group I described. Right? GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, I think the first plan is the three of you would get together and the high level identify what everything is, what's the purpose? What's the charter? What are we planning on doing? Then based on the next meeting, or whenever we discuss it next, then maybe we need to formulate a plan or add another working group or something like that. Okay. So we have the three of you, we have DJ, Steve, and Janice, on this working group will call it the Non-native Invasive Plant. NURNEY: there must be a fancy acronym for that now. HOLDEN: It's a non-native, invasive plant. GRZYBOWSKI: It's not fun to say no good acronym needs to be able to say something. Yeah, NURNEY: like implants or something. GRZYBOWSKI: And did everybody get a quick look at this thing, that thing that jettison out the Yeti? That's frightening. NURNEY: And we you know, we were saying that it may be a townwide. There may be townwide issues, but it goes beyond far beyond even the town right. I mean, not necessarily what we have in the Preserve, but the invasive species thing is big everywhere. After the winter we have especially when the process CRAIG: of this I definitely think we have to make contact somehow Tucson. That was a lower level probably than what the workgroup is thinking about, but it wouldn't hurt to make that initial contract agreed. HOLDEN: But I also think Scottsdale which a lot is easier, and we know that people is because what's happening over there, I mean to sounds a problem, but what's happening next door and in Scottsdale, and they're finding so much that they've got this huge project and they've been whatever they've been acknowledged and recognized as these invasive plant people. Um, I think it would be worth having. I mean, I think at our, at the working group level, initially, we could kind of talk to them and maybe kind of come up with some suggestions about how to approach it because I know I don't know. So that's just a thought. And then Tucs n if we decided that we need to do something more, for sure. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, so just remind me, of course, next month if you have anything to add to the agenda, like an update from the working group. All right, so let's move on to Item number 8, which is an update from the Sonoran Conservancy Fountain Hills liaison. HOLDEN: I think we sort of discussed as far as our annual outcome for the season for the 2023 season, which is rather remarkable. It was the most we ever did on every level. And it was really all successful. We've got we've put together I guess, for the next newsletter, which I hope you won't get the kind of some of the really interesting comments and feedback, and they really are, everything is always really positive on everything we've done. We also put together the fall program for June, actually, I've got one thing in June and one thing in September, and then we've got something in - 13 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES October, November, and December. So, I think there are 20 events in all, which is quite a lot. We've never done quite that many in the fall, or what we call the fall so and then at the end and we got it into the town and the town is now getting it up on their website. They're in the process of doing that. We'II have it on our website, we'll get it out on our newsletter, and I'll work with Bob Burns from the Fountain Hills Times to get some of that stuff out, especially the June one for anybody who's here. Scorpion Scorpius and stars with Vicki Dirksen finding scorpions in the sky on the ground. GRZYBOWSKI: So, without Ranger Amy, we... HOLDEN: Ranger Vicki Jackson and I work really closely together because she's great to work with and the dark skies, folks and the new Discovery Center, which got a $10 million grant in our town. And so, the Conservancy is very keen to work more closely with those folks and every way we can, because that preserve is our open skies to the dark skies. Let's put it that way. So, it's a really, really nice opportunity. So, Vicki, and I have a whole series this fall. But that's the first one and then I can't remember the September one, God, someday I'll think of it. But I'll let you know what this there's one in September, it'll be hotter than hell. It'II be fun. GRZYBOWSKI: Very good. Yet, I just made a note to myself to meet, I need to change these numbers and the frequently asked questions to match the slides. Because I think the numbers, we came up with 2254 times $31.80 equals whatever that $71,700 cost savings was. So, I'll just make sure the notes match. HOLDEN: And yeah, I forgot about that. Okay. So, did I miss anything now? GRZYBOWSKI: This brings up to item number nine, which is the trail counter activity. Does anybody have any comments on that? I mean, those are the numbers we use for the presentation from the past season. So again, I you know, I've been here seven years, I think working with the Commission, those are the highest numbers I've ever seen from the trail Connors, really, those are really awesome. HOLDEN: Pam did send me a comment on this. I cannot find it, but I'll keep looking at my email. CRAIG: I wonder if there is some way we should put a caveat explaining the difference in the numbers. They don't add up. question whether we should put totals, like Bob Burns, who is Bob Burns, who is a host was here saying hey, help me with these numbers. Some explanation at the top would be advisable or just leave it the way it is? GRZYBOWSKI: I mean, we did we did put a summation at the top. HOLDEN: I suggest you not use the total of the columns the total because you're repeating repeatedly, people so it looks as though we have 48,000 people I know we changed it to unique heads but maybe that number shouldn't even be there because you count them all going in at the Promenade. You count them coming out of the promenade and then we count them again going up on the Sonoran and we count them again going on the Ridgeline and the Andrews Kinsey and so it looks like we have so many but in fact, it's what comes into the parking lot and the few people that come in through Scottsdale or come up through go through Golden Eagle well okay at a few more but I think our numbers are really wrong and Bill, Bob pointed it out. CRAIG: And the bicycles count for the number of bikes that come up and then just turn around and go back. HOLDEN: Of course, all good bicycles count, and we don't even know. GRZYBOWSKI: Well, I mean, yes, we had been asking for like a year now to get real trail counters in the town is not had a hard time trying to get to procurement. But there's a really good system out there that several national parks use that would actually give you unique bicycles versus people. And it - 14 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES wouldn't just be a hit, they would actually be people. In the know, there's there are self covers that the data gets uploaded to a website automatically. We don't need humans to go out and pull cards anymore. But they're not cheap. And, you know, I don't even know if SNIPES: they made the budget. I don't know. And they won't respond, and GRZYBOWSKI: they won't even respond now that comes others for that. Okay, there's that. WILLARD: I mean, relative to all the various trail counters I think this chart is useful for us but should be kept completely internally to us. And the only thing that needs to go out maybe is the AC T promenade trail count. And the ACT parking count, maybe just those two numbers. Because otherwise it is confusing and its hard to allocate. Say, I think it's useful for us to have these other things but maybe to go out to general publication, maybe just those two numbers might be a lot three. I mean, with Botanical Garden, ACT parking, and Lake Overlook. GRZYBOWSKI: Well, I mean, yeah, I'll change that slide. I'll just put the three numbers there. ACT HOLDEN: Botanical Garden, the Lake Overlook Trail, yep. ACT. Promenade, parking to get an idea of how many cars you. WILLARD: go through there. And that's just putting it out to the public. Still, keep this for us? Oh, correct. Yeah, agreed, right? NURNEY: So, I'm embarrassed to ask this question. But where is the parking lot counter located? CRAIG: At the first gate? NURNEY: Oh, it is okay. JENNINGS: So, it's only counting entries and not exits, CRAIG: no. entry and exit, and bikes and people. GRZYBOWSKI: I mean, for all these numbers, we can play statisticians. And we could do division and this and extrapolate. We do all that if we want to do, but we would have been trying to keep it just simple. Here are the clicks, you know, but there are standards that we could use that are out there that say okay, based on trail counter hits, you could assume it's this many people based on this many hits. And that would be very confusing for everybody. So we haven't done that. I think anyway, for the presentation, that one slide about trail usage, I will just put the three numbers for the four numbers, just keep it simple. In the middle, stay there that these are these are trail counter clicks or whatever we call it these statistics, just so they know it's that people. Okay, next item on the agenda. Can you go up at last to my agenda, my screen? Item Number 10 Future Agenda Items. I don't have any additions to the future dynamics. If we have information from the working group on the non-native invasive plants, we could add that one. Do you think we'll have any Updates from the Charter and MMPC Scope? haven't really talked much about that. The MMPC Scope? So the next meeting is our last before Yeah, so we should add that one then we should okay. SNIPES: And I'll do another reach out to the trail counter people just for you. GRZYBOWSKI: Thank you. I mean, I could find another company. I remember I found a bunch of companies that looked like the most. SNIPES: I liked what it shows in I was encouraged by putting in and then it was just like nope, so So and we tried multiple times to reach out to them with different people didn't believe in Patti even reached out trying a different person than I tried thinking well, maybe it's the person but so we've struck out a lot so but I think its cool and I like the technology of it and I think we can fund it and it may be a process over years. But so we found what we can fund and we then the next year we fund what we can fund again, you know, and so, so I'll try and reach out again. - 15 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, and I'll see if we can dig, I'll try to dig up my research of the other places I found. Hopefully, I took notes. The older I get, the more I take notes because I don't remember things. But sometimes it's hard to forgive them. I can say that it's hard to find the notes like, I don't I don't know what I don't know what question to ask them in the refrigerator. Okay, so Patti, our next meeting is June 27th. Still on the calendar? Same time. 5 pm. LOPUSZANSKI: Just a reminder you're on a break for the summer. So, July and August there are no meetings, and we reconvene in September. GRZYBOWSKI: Well, again, it's it would be nice if you're in attendance, so people can see that you're supporting it. And what we'll do with email is we'll send out so if they don't want to come here and fill out a public speaking card, they could go online and do it electronically. Right. And then Linda, who runs a meeting? LOPUSZANSKI: Linda Mendenhall. So sometimes when they get sent electronically, if it's a busy meeting, it's a really packed agenda. She will have a packet of all of those comment cards and she'll give them to each of the council members. She may not read them, but they will each have it. SNIPES: She could do is simple as this is, you know, there are 27 people that reported in all of them for the answer, so that's how they'll get the numbers out there. Okay. HOLDEN: And we'll ask them to show up in cap and gown in shirts and caps so it'll make a presence if we have enough of us here. I have no idea how many people are here. GRZYBOWSKI: Correct yet. It's out of season. Okay, then I say we adjoum at make a Motion to Adjourn at 1802. JENNINGS: Second. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Adjoumed. Having no further business, Chair Grzybowski adjourned the Regular Meeting of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission on May 23, 2023, at 6:02 PM MCDOW 1 MOUNT PRESERVATION COMMISSION Scott Grzybo - ski, Chair ATTEST AND PREPARED BY: Patti LopuszanSki, Executive Assistant - 16 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MAY 23, 2023 VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES CERTIFICATION 1 hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Regular Meeting held by the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission in the Town Hall Council Chambers on the 23rd day of May 2023. 1 further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. QTED this 2 t^ day of June 203. Patti Lopuszans i, Ex9'c Jtive Assistant - 17 - https://otter.ai