Loading...
HomeMy WebLinkAboutMMPC.2023.0926.MinutesMCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES Post -Production File TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 26, 2023 MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION MEETING VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES Transcription Provided By: https://Otter.ai ********* Transcription is provided to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. - 1 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023 A Regular Meeting of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission was convened at 16705 E. Avenue of the Fountains in open and public session at 5:00 p.m. Members Present: Chair Scott Grzybowski; Vice Chair Steven Nurney; Commissioner Bill Craig; Commissioner Janice Holden; Commissioner Sherry Irwin; Commissioner Brian Jennings (Called In); Commissioner DJ Willard Staff Present: Interim Community Services Director Kevin Snipes; Executive Assistant Patti Lopuszanski Audience: None 2 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: We're calling the MMPC Regular Meeting to order at 1700 on Wednesday, the 26th of September. So again, to remind everybody before Roll Call that Brian is on the phone, so we need to turn our mics on and speak. So, with that, let's do Roll Call. LOPUSZANSKI: Chairman Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Vice Chair Nurney? NURNEY: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Craig? CRAIG: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Holden? HOLDEN: Here LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Irwin? IRWIN: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Jennings? JENNINGS: You bet. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Willard? WILLARD: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: All right. Thank you. Item number 3. Reports by Commissioners. Did anybody do anything exciting this summer that you would like to report on? Okay, Item number 4. Call the Public. LOPUSZANSKI: No Call to the Public. GRZYBOWSKI: This brings us to Item number 5. Consideration of and Possible Action the Approval of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission June 27, 2023, Verbatim Minutes. Again, they are verbatim minutes, and I had no concern with that. If no one else does. Can we get a motion to approve? WILLARD: So, move. HOLDEN: Second. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Any opposed? No. GRZYBOWSKI: Motion Carries 7-0. This brings us to Item number 6. Consideration and Possible Action for the Appointment of the MMPC Commission Chair. So, I saw these items six and seven on here. Do we need to vote on this or are we going to wait till new appointments? LOPUSZANSKI: We don't have any new appointments. Everyone wanted to be reappointed if they were up for their term, so this would be the time since we're a little bit behind in voting for a new term for the Chair and Vice Chair. Again, it opens it up for discussion of which way you want to go. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. So yeah, that brings up a discussion then. I'm fine with staying as the MMPC Chair, but if anybody would like to throw their name in the ring, please say so. Anybody? So, do we need to? Okay, so then I make a motion that I stay appointed as the commission chair. CRAIG: I second that motion. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor? ALL: Aye. - 3 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: All right. Any opposed? Motion Carries 7-0. That brings us to Item number 7 Consideration and Possible Action for the Appointment of the MMPC Vice Chair, which is Steve... NURNEY: I'm fine as well, when I saw this on the agenda, I was concerned that you were giving up and I was going to be left holding the bag here. I'm fine staying as Vice Chairman, but I'm also fine if someone else wants to step in. GRZYBOWSKI: Does anybody else want to nominate anyone? CRAIG: Second. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor of Steve staying as the Vice Chair? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Any opposed? No. (Motion carries 7-0) Thank you, Brian. Okay, that brings us to Item number 8, Consideration and Possible Action of the MMPC Scope of Charter. I'll start with that and Janice, and Steve, if you want to pipe in, but the working group met, which is myself, Janice, and Steve. We met just a few weeks ago to discuss the scope of the charter. So, a couple of things came out of this one, let me see if I could find my notes quick. I always like to be prepared. But in general, the consensus we had as a working group, and this could be a discussion item of course, our feeling is that the MMPC has done everything it has set out to do from the beginning and we were okay to sunset, the MMPC as a commission. And here's why. So, I'll give you some background on that. So if you think about it, as we discussed the last time, there are a couple of things we could do. We could change the charter, we could sunset it, and maybe create a new commission. But the bottom line is what we were thinking of is that we have accomplished everything we said I think the number one priority for the MMPC was to get the Adero Canyon Trailhead built working with Toll Brothers to get all that done. That has been accomplished, super excited about that. We built and documented the Guidelines for the Preserve, mostly DJ was kind of this spirit on that which is great. We built the Masters Trail Plan which is good for 10 years in conjunction or in alignment with the Strategic Plan of the parks and recreation. We've got three new trails that which is part of our Trails Master Plan approved, which is already moving forward. And ultimately, if you think about how, today the MMPC in our mind is kind of an impediment to getting things done. Right? So, if you think about how the Sonoran Conservancy works with the trailblazer, right, the Sonora Conservancy, is in a perfect place, to actually work directly with Community Services and Parks and Rec. Right. So, do we need a commission to talk about signs? Do we need a commission to change rules and regulations? And our thinking was that? No. So that's my thoughts on this. Janice, Steve, any other thoughts? HOLDEN: Well, I mean, I think what we, so we went through a number of different areas that we could participate in or that we could approach or work on. And I think there was nothing that we came up with, that the Conservancy couldn't do, if not as well, better, because we're not restricted by the Open Meeting Rules. We do the work so we do know what's going on. On the conservancy side, the majority of us here are conservancy volunteers. And I think part of the truth is, that everybody on the commission joined this commission because they wanted to be involved in what happens in our Preserve. But you can be so much more involved as a trailblazer or a host, or a steward as part of the Conservancy than we can sitting up here, which is really kind of like everybody likes to get their hands dirty and get involved and this isn't as good an opportunity. So, to Scott's point, I mean, everything that we have accomplished, since, you know, opening the trailhead, the Conservancy could have done as well. And most of it was done by the Conservancy and the Trailblazers. So, I guess that was kind of - 4 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES really where we came up with not being able to come up with anything additional that we could add value by maintaining the commission. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, and we were discussing that, you know, we have the Community Service Advisory Commission, right? So if we were to agree that this should be sunset, and the staff agrees, and if the Council has to agree, right, the somebody that may not want to may want to continue on a commission or a board, they can go to Sonoran Conservancy, join that board, they can join one of the community service or one of the other commission's, I'm thinking, of course, Community Services, because that also deals with Parks and Rec and Community Services. And if that is the case, we may want to put in, you know, a word or language that says, you know, maybe if there's one of us that wants to move to one of those commissions, we would have priority, maybe we don't, because we're already vetted. You know, I don't even know if we need wording. But the point was that hey, well, if one of us wants to jump over to one of those commissions, and there's an opening, we're already vetted. We're already commissioners, maybe we could just slide in there, as some of the thoughts. WILLARD: I've got a couple of thoughts. One is I essentially agree with your recommendation. But there's a process question in terms of, we didn't create our own Commission, the town council created the commission. So, I mean, all we can do as a commission is recommended, right? So, there's a process issue of how you go down that path. The one thing and rather than, say disband, I would prefer to say fold into the Community Service Advisory Commission so that we still have a commission out there, even if there's only a part of the Community Services Commission worried about the Preserve, at least someone on a commission has agreed, yeah, a preserve. So, I wouldn't rather than say disband, I would prefer to save, and recommend we fold it into Community Services Advisory. GRZYBOWSKI: And that's it. Yeah, that's what we had said earlier. It makes perfect sense to make sure that CSAC has either we make sure that gets added to their charter, you know, and we get a board member to or commission member, but yeah, agreed. NURNEY: Right. So just to clarify, you're not suggesting that we all become part of the community services. WILLARD: No, not to say that the responsibility for the preserve gets, right. Yeah, good clarification. SNIPES: So, one thing that we could do is, if one or two of you wanted to join CSAC, we could expand that number for a period of time until we drop members. Then it would drop back down to seven, eventually. But we could add to that committee for a period of time until that becomes, we've done that before with other committees. That way, the voice is still there. And I'd be more than willing to lead that charge of having that angle on it. I think that would be good. If there's interest in doing that, that would be fine as well. NURNEY: So, Kevin, I guess we would ask you, and I think you and Scott already had this conversation. But from your perspective, we're not giving anything up significantly by taking this approach. As far as the town is concerned. SNIPES: Well, I think this was the original thought process was that this commission was geared toward getting it built. And then it was set up to sunset, I think it made sense to continue until we kind of got this finalized version that you guys came up with last year. And we're built out now it's maintaining, and now it's boots on the ground, so to speak, which I think Janice brought up earlier that's what the Sonoran Conservancy does. What I would recommend is when, if this is the direction that we go, then having CSAC involved, and then I would think it would be good to have a quarterly debrief from the - 5 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES Sonoran Conservancy to CSAC. So that then we can get that information documented in minutes as well. And then we can see the direction that we're going, what we're doing, and we can have those discussions still. And as you know, I'm always available. So anytime that there was a question, we could do one-off meetings, I'm happy to do that. But as far as the big picture goes, having, I think, quarterly would be often enough. And not too often, if I'm open to other suggestions, if it's three times a year, because of the summer and you know, all of that being less active times, that's fine. But I think three or four would be a good number to report in and make sure that everybody's still on the same page. CRAIG: A number of things are going through my mind; I hadn't really realized we were approaching this at this time. We are primarily supposed to be giving advice to the Council. I don't know that much gets to the Council from us. We had been trying for years to get on and have the meeting with the Council and maybe five years ago, we had a joint meeting. Another thing I think in terms of Trailblazers, would I have any less contact with Kevin as being just Conservancy, as opposed to here? I mean, you've been so good in terms of contact and talking through problems. What about things like the toolboxes that we still have to deal with? Would that be something we'd push through CSAC? GRZYBOWSKI: To me that could be that could be the Trailblazers directly to the Parks and Rec. We don't really need the commission for that type of that's really adding. SNIPES: Yeah, those day-to-day things. Like I was saying, I'm always open to it's not like there's hostility between us at all. I've thoroughly enjoyed everything that we've done together and we'll continue to do it'll just it the biggest thing that will be different will be that we won't have it this way. We'll get it a different way. And like I said, anytime anything comes up I'm always available on weekends and weeknights, I answer my phone. That's what I do. I you know it I know what value the Sonoran Conservancy is, and what this commission has been in, and that that doesn't change. It just gets modified, you know, that appreciation is still there and we'll still continue to be team members on what we're doing as far as taking care of the preserve and making sure that we're all on the same page as far as doing that. And if something needs to go to Council, the Sonoran Conservancy is more than welcome to come in and do that and I can help schedule that and set that up as well if we need to do that, or whoever's in my position that I'm in right now. So, depending on how that is, that's certainly something that's not hard to continue to set up the meeting side of getting your voice heard, to the Council, when need be, and to the Community Services Department anytime need be. CRAIG: Yeah. And I think because we have worked and the personnel is what it is, and we have worked very well together. Do we need to have anything else on paper such that you leave or if leave or the Conservancy has changes? SNIPES: I think, that's part of where the report back and forth between the CSAC so that they'll still be a connection to a committee that can go on behalf of in front of counsel as well, if that's determined to be the better route angle to take. And that way, they'll continue to be an update, we'll continue to have minutes that we'll be recording the information that's shared, to where the Sonoran Conservancy doesn't get lost in the shuffle, which would be horrible if that ever were to occur. But that would link those two together, to make sure that information was still being shared, so that it wouldn't happen, regardless of who was in my seat, your seat all of your seats, it would be a mandatory report on every so often to where that would be shared through a committee. 6 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, if you think about the CSAC today, they already are concerned about the trails and the connectors and, you know, Community Services and fitness in the community where we've always had the problem here, we're like, well, we don't do the Overlook Trail, we don't do the Botanical Garden as the MMPC can be very limited. It just makes sense. And I love Kevin's idea that maybe if there's some of us that want to join that two of us that'll join that for a year or so we become part of the CSAC. And then three times a year, we have Sonoran Conservancy come do a liaison presentation to the commission to make sure it stays connected. And the other thing I did do some research. I mean, I've been here six years, I think on this, we've been in front of the Town Council three times the only other commission that's ever been in front of the Town Council that much is the spec, which is the planning. Now the Strategic Planning. So the other Commission's Planning and Zoning sees it, they don't come in from the council. It's nerve-racking, it'll do that. We've had a lot of FaceTime with the council. So, I think we've done a good job. But just I don't feel we really need this commission. CRAIG: And the other thing that I think needs to be looked at and determined is finances. You know, we don't have a budget, it's a little bit taken here or there. And when I've asked, where's the funds come from, well, a little bit here. And I would like to make sure that if there are tools that are necessary if there is signage, whatever, that will still be available. SNIPES: So I'll say the way that the budget is done for me, it's for PR trails, what is what the account is that everything comes out of the that we buy tools or signs or anything else that goes into our trails or our trailheads. We do have a budget and it does have line items for tools and things like that. The line items to me mean less than the overall and so if I need this year, I need more tools, and next year, I need more signs, then that money shifts around it's very simple to do to make sure that we get the things that we need within our trail system to make sure that we're taking care of it. The same thing with our parks where some years vandalisms up some years it's down so that money has to you know it has to be taken care of so it gets taken care of And then it's given take from other parts of that same budget. NURNEY: But I guess it's maybe it's covered, but most of those requests are coming from your role as a trailblazer not as a commissioner, right? WILLARD: It's kind of been.... SNIPES: Yeah, it's all blended together. And that's part of the thing that this will help clear up is that there won't be a blended, it'll be a very defined collaboration between us were in and frankly, the way that it's working right now, there's been several times where we'll, we can't have too many people, or we'll hit quorum. And then next thing, you know, we're in trouble and Linda's coming down and giving speeches and telling us that we can't send emails, and it eliminates all of those issues and makes it to where they can be done in group fashion. And, and I'm happy if it goes, however, we want to go with it. But I see the value of it being split off and being set up to where it can be... It's the same voice between the Sonoran Conservancy and the group that's here, so it'll just make it to where that's coming from a different angle, but it's coming to the same people, it's still going to be going through the Community Services and like I said, we can write it up. And what I would say is, when if, if it does go, we're where we sunset, you guys write something up, send it to Mayor, Council, myself, and Linda, as well as Patti. And that way our Town Clerk has it too, and then just stating the things that we discussed here today. And I think that that should be part of how it sunsets. It sunsets with the understanding that we'll meet either three times or four times, however, you think is best. It'll report to CSAC, and then we will expand CSAC for a limited period of time if there are people who want to volunteer into that. And we'll bring - 7 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES them in, and then that way their voice will be heard a different way. And then as well as getting those reports in. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, I think that's a good segway into that action item. Right? I don't think we need to do anything here tonight. This was more of a discussion, but I'll take action to work with our working group to formulate that document. And hopefully, we'll have it done for the next meeting. We'll get it on the agenda, and we can discuss it. And if we all like it with the changes, then we can move forward and vote on it then. Okay. Everybody, good? Any other discussion on that? HOLDEN: What would the process actually be for whatever we call it for making this go away? Like folding it into something else? SNIPES: I would, I would just call it the MMPC is going to sunset, we're going to expand CSAC to add, add a couple if and that's what that's the thing that maybe we should discuss tonight to see if there's anybody that is interested in doing it. I wouldn't do more than two. I think if we bring two in that puts it at a nine -person committee for them. And then that'll drop back down to seven. And I can take care of all of that with Linda and figuring out the lingo as far as CSAC goes. And then we can go from there. CRAIG: Is CSAC okay with this? SNIPES: I have not brought it up to him because it hasn't been discussed here yet. That direction will come from here. CRAIG: Okay. WILLARD: So again, I mean, we're a commission appointed by the Town Council. So, I think the only thing we can do is recommend. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah. We're just going to write up our thoughts. This is how we think we should do it. And then we, of course, as a commission, we should vote on it. Right. So, we have consensus, and then we'll pass it to the staff and then from there. SNIPES: And then that can be sent out to the Mayor and Council and everybody that needs to see it. And unless they have a strong objection, which I would be surprised if they went against, then that action could be taken and then it'll just go through Linda to make the clerical information, so we stay legal. WILLARD: Well, then back Kevin to your comment on in terms of just to move things along to see if anybody is interested in being part of that transition to CSAC. GRZYBOWSKI: You have put everybody on the spot now. SNIPES: And frankly if not, that's okay too, it still works, I just want to make sure that you don't feel like you're losing everything. If there are some of you that want to roll over, I'm fine with that. I'm also fine with it, the CSAC just being told that look, now, because there was conversation around things that overlapped. It's funny that you brought that up. Just last night, when we were discussing, they're looking into some environmental things. And I'm like, well, there's certain things that overlap. And so we don't want to have you doing work that another group is doing, and we can share that information across to see how that wants to be handled. So it's a thing of having that happen, where there is crossover. So it's entirely up to you. And you don't have to announce tonight, if you want to send something to Patti in the next couple of weeks to let her know, that would be fine too. And we can put that into the next agenda to share with the group. That way there's not so much pressure on DJ. WILLARD: I am willing to go. - 8 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: I mean, I'm willing to go too. But I was going to talk to Janice and Bill to see if they need help on the Conservancy side as well. So that's why I didn't want to just make a decision tonight. But I'll say I'm willing to jump in as well with DJ. So, there are at least two of us interested. SNIPES: Well, if there's more then it can be a vote, we can put it to a vote and go that way with it. HOLDEN: But to that point, you don't you could become Conservancy Board Member. GRZYBOWSKI: That's what I wanted to talk to you about. HOLDEN: So, anyone, I think that's something that we should look at integrating all the some of the commissioners into the board. So that it's the same engagement, but more so because there's more we can do. NURNEY: So that's a good point. I mean, what should we say that the seven of us consider one or the other? Or of course, you could bow out if you want to? Sure. Right, with the preference be to have us all represented in one place or the other? Or is that too much? GRZYBOWSKI: Maybe too many. HOLDEN: We can't add seven people as our Board is only seven people. It could be more it could be up to nine or even Yeah, I think it could be nine. And maybe somebody will leave. SNIPES: Right. But it's, it's, it just becomes all part of it. There's it when especially when you first bring it up, then it's like, oh, there's a lot of pieces. And so it's figuring out where those all go and the more we discuss tonight that show the different angles, then the committee that that work group that's working on it has more information to iron out before we come back the next time and hopefully we can dial it in tighter than and figure out where we go from there. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, good. HOLDEN: Sorry. So I guess the three of us can try and make a plan. Not that that's a big plan, but just to try and hit all the things that need to get done. And that's what we'll come back with in addition to the draft of the letter. GRZYBOWSKI: Correct a transition plan. Exactly. All right, perfect. Okay, moving on to Item Number 9 MMPC Meeting Dates For 2024. If anybody has any, you know, conflicts this is so far in the future. I don't I don't, I'm fine with the dates. So if no one has a problem with any of the dates, we can make a Motion to Approve the Potential Meeting Dates, or future meeting dates. Alright, I move that we approve the future meeting dates. NURNEY: Second. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. All in favor? ALL: AYE GRZYBOWSKI: No, nobody opposed. Motion carries 7-0. That brings us to Item Number 10, Consideration and Possible Action of the Non-native Invasive Plant Working Group. That's some good information that Janice has passed out as well through Patti. But I guess I'll leave it up to you. Any thoughts? HOLDEN: Right. So yeah, Paul Staker is very involved in doing the assessment of the Diamond Fire that hit the gooseneck portion of the Scottsdale Preserve over the summer. It hit a couple of 100 acres and so now they're trying to figure out what they attribute the primary cause to and as of this, it seems to be a red broom, which is an invasive plant that we have growing here, not necessarily in our preserve, but that happens to be growing, certainly in Scottsdale, and anything near the Regional Park is an issue. But of course, if it's in the regional park, it's likely to be in the Scottsdale Preserve. And so, I 9 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES guess, and I did bring this up when we had our last Board meeting with the Conservancy in May and there was a pretty strong expression of people who are interested in getting involved and getting more of the volunteers involved. Because you do need like teams to go out if that's what we decide to do. Paul did agree that he would come once again, he did this a couple of years ago, he would educate us about whatever they currently do, and know, and it's a great start. At any rate, it's not necessarily the beginning and the end of what it is we do, assuming we do something. So, though, if this was now not the commission, it's the same people looking at the conservancy, which is great, perfect. It's just easier for us to communicate with Kevin what we plan to do, and kind of go ahead and start the program if that's what we want to do. And just like the commission would have made recommendations, the Conservancy can make the recommendations after we go out and look and do an assessment and then figure out whether or not there's an issue this year or not, or we put it on hold, which is what we did a couple of years ago. So, I think that's probably the recommendation that I would make to the Conservancy because they are interested. And anyone who wants to participate can do that. SNIPES: And just to kind of hit in on this even with it going to the Conservancy and saying that the MMPC is not here, then just making sure that the Sonoran Conservancy understands that it still needs to go through staff before action takes place. And I know that we understand that it's just what I want to make sure that that's something that we talk about documenting and making sure, that's where I want to make sure that connection stays with CSAC. So that information can be shared. And then we can figure out the bigger scheme of how we go through and do things just like this. CRAIG: Janice, what was the process that Scottsdale went through in terms of you're seeing groups of people go out, go out, like was indicated a couple of years ago, just identification of where there are invasive plants, you're talking about groups going out and identifying or going out and somehow eradicating, or what. What process did Scottsdale end up going through? HOLDEN: Well, Scottsdale does, as we know, they do eradicate, but I would not, I don't think that would be something we would ever recommend without going first and doing an assessment, which is, I would imagine we would do something very similar to what we did. I don't know two, three years ago, where we formed teams, everybody was assigned a trail to a trail and the five to six trails. Well, people and basically a couple of people from Scottsdale came over. GRZYBOWSKI: They used an app didn't they? HOLDEN: Unable to transcribe NURNEY: Can you say that all over again. HOLDEN: Brian, did you hear me? JENNINGS: No. HOLDEN: Oh, never mind. GRZYBOWSKI: She didn't have her mic on. JENNINGS: Okay, that's fine. HOLDEN: I guess that's all right now I think we need to do about the non-native invasive plants. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, I mean, from like, when we did the North Leg this past year, we definitely noticed more buffet grass because we didn't have a trailer. Right? So, there was no one ever going out there to really check it right. But as we were building that trail, we noticed a lot more buffelgrass, which was interesting. That's not the one that was a big mover in the Diamond Fire. So, but yeah, I agree, I think that's the approach, we need to figure this out, let's get the training. And you know, we'll probably - 10 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES get some people out there to go out and look and start identifying, because I forgot all the training to forget the plants right. CRAIG: At the same time wonder, relative to cost, Fountain Hills versus Scottsdale if they're going through and able to have the funds to eradicate are we apt to have funds if we if we don't know what the inclination of the council financially, we may be able to do a lot of work and not have it be any good. WILLARD: Well, I think there are a couple of things I had this is a while back, I had a conversation with Scott Hamilton and they have a grant that I don't quite understand the nuances of, but he said that we can somehow piggyback off his grant so that we didn't have to start from the beginning, we still would have to do some things. And then Kevin brought up a meeting or two ago, this grant that was too late for this year. But if we jumped on that that might be a possibility for us to get some funding for and that was remediation only not assessment. So, we need to be aware of that. But I think there are a couple of things that we're able to pursue and see if they pan out or not. GRZYBOWSKI: And the other thing too, I like about the Sonoran Conservancy, they're nonprofit. So, they can actually work on a grant all on their own. Whereas the Commission can't do anything. HOLDEN: We can also raise money. SNIPES: Yeah I think all those are possibilities. As far as covering the funding side of things. I think there are a lot of grants out there to help prevent fire in preserves, and even in open deserts. So it's certainly something that there's more than one way to help get the funding to help with doing a task. As far as the angle of the council at any given time, who knows? There's no way for us to have that magic crystal ball. I wish we had, but we do not. I would use it a lot. So yeah, I think that there's more than one way to figure out how we can do things down the road. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, let's move on to Item Number 11 Discussion Possible Action Moving Toolboxes, right, we still need those moves Bill? NURNEY: They didn't move themselves? GRZYBOWSKI: No They didn't move themselves. So interesting thing enough. I mean, move the wheels on there. But I don't think I know chief are they now have an ATV? I don't know if that's big enough. Can we use the ATV? Put a toolbox on it because it has a bed for carrying a person. What are the thrills? I don't know. I mean, it's a new it's a new idea because they just got the ATV. And we're not getting to helicopter unless we buy it ourselves. Like we have to rent we already went through all the channels. We checked with the fire department we checked with the sheriff they all said nope, nope, nope, nope. So, we're not getting any free helicopter support. So just thinking of another option. CRAIG: What did the only thing was that I heard of a big one wheel that I don't know that fire and rescue us or whatever that might be able to be used. I don't know. If anybody else know anything? NURNEY: Sorry, do we know definitively how much those weigh? Empty? CRAIG: No. I know a couple of us have put it in the back of my SUV to carry it up to where it is. And then four of us could do it with an auto. NURNEY: I'm kind of envisioning, unfortunately, like a funeral procession. Yeah, carrying the casket, right? Maybe that's what we have to plan for. Even if we only do 100 yards a time or 50 yards a time do it over a period of a month. I can't I don't think I ATV is going to get those trails with carrying something like that. WILLARD: Bill, you had a sense of what a helicopter rental would cost. Didn't you get some kind of a ballpark figure of what a helicopter is? - 11 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES CRAIG: Oh, I think it was Scott who told me. Yeah, it was Scott who told me $2,000 an hour. Kevin, is that worth pursuing to see exactly what? It may only take an hour. NURNEY: What kind of helicopter do I mean? It's not just any helicopter. CRAIG: Lift it from the parking lot. Go out the Ridgeline, lift the second one go out to Lower... GRZYBOWSKI: No, no, yeah, it does have to be a special helicopter that's got a vertical onboard delivery system in the hook. But again, Scottsdale uses those I mean, I'm sure that's easy to find out. CRAIG: Oh, yeah. They have a helicopter that lifts boulders, or at least large amounts of rocks, and carry some different places. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, but we should at least look, you know, can you ask Scott? CRAIG: Well, I can at least ask him who they used and a contact. WILLARD: I mean, depending on what that number is, then we can think about fundraising, GoFundMe say, hey, let's chip in to help get these done. But yeah, once we have a number, then we're going to have no option on what our options are. IRWIN: But are we moving them only once? I mean... CRAIG: My intention is to move them to a place where they'd be accessible for maintenance. GRZYBOWSKI: Right now the only one we have is the one at the beginning of the ACT. So if you're doing work way out, right, so we wanted to get one, where do you want to put that one? CRAIG: One at the top of the lollipop. Okay, on Ridgeline take care all those or actually at the power lines, and then another? Well, move it up somewhere close to where the first crossover is on the Sonoran NURNEY: So would another.... GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, go ahead, Brian. JENNINGS: Hey, could this be kind of a progressive move where you set the tools out there was one guy at a time and then you know, the box goes separately, and that way you're keeping down the weight and can figure out a way to do it without mechanizing it? GRZYBOWSKI: Yes, we did bring that up. But that would take at least four strong people to move it quite a bit. NURNEY: I don't think anyone was suggesting we move it fully, right? But Bill is there another option to build I would think that the farther out we go this may be the smaller we could get by with a smaller container if we could build something out there like a kit or something. CRAIG: Well we have two boxes now. We have three altogether with one in place. NURNEY: I know but if the other two it turns out we just can't move the other two. I mean, could we build something on site there and just have people carry the parts to build it of course corollary to that I'm assuming the answer to this is absolutely no but is there any way to take apart the existing box? GRZYBOWSKI: No, no. SNIPES: I wonder if there's a one -wheel or something like that that trail -building crews use. And if they would rent it or come out and move it at a substantially lower cost than say a helicopter. I think that would be worth looking into. NURNEY: I think the trouble is that there are parts of the trails that nothing no vehicle... GRZYBOWSKI: No these would be manual labor. But they're a one -wheeler. Just like a wheelbarrow. NURNEY: Yeah, but I still think there are parts of that that wouldn't be possible. SNIPES: You could carry it around the corner if you had to be carried around the corner and then put it back on the wheel. - 12 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, if a human can walk it we get we can get it. Just a lot of work for humans. SNIPES: Have you seen how strong Scott is? NURNEY: He can only move rocks? He's a rock specialist. GRZYBOWSKI: But there's like only like one and a half of me maybe if Nate's ankle is healed, maybe we got two there's not a lot of us on the Trailblazers. Okay, well we have a plan we're going to talk to at least Scottsdale to see if they what they do, but then I'm going to do is I'll do some research. Because in the military on the planes, we have very similar one -wheeler things that we could pick up either box and drag it. I'm sure they got something for trail building as well. That would at least be easier than four people trying to handle it by the handles, we can do that. Okay, Item Number 12 Discussion and Possible Action on the Volunteer Waiver? Janice, what's the plan for that? Do we need to sign it? Are we doing that? Patti? Okay. This is from Kim Wickland. SNIPES: What is needed for the town's insurance is to make sure that everybody is taken care of is make sure that everybody fills out a Volunteer Waiver. And then it also makes it so everybody is counted in our volunteer group so that we know what our actual number of volunteers are. And so that's where this stemmed from is making sure that everybody's covered while they're out on the trail or have signed the waiver for how they're and what their involvement is, and what and what they're doing. GRZYBOWSKI: So does Kim want to do it online? Because I'm already in the system. SNIPES: Yes. Anyone who goes out. HOLDEN: I mean, we're pretty good about getting all the documents because we need a town one, we have our own one. We even created a fillable form this summer so that you could go online and fill it out as opposed to print it out and take it somewhere. SNIPES: Kim's is fillable online as well. The volunteer form is online, it is a fillable document that can be done online. NURNEY: So I'm confused. Why is this on our agenda? Is this because we need to all do it? We haven't told them correct? GRZYBOWSKI: Because we all need to do it. To make sure all of us commissioners do it. SNIPES: Because we're making sure that everybody does it. And because there's a bunch of people that haven't done it. We need to make sure that anybody who goes out and works on the trails, or does anything like that makes sure that everybody is filling this out prior to going out. HOLDEN: We do we really try hard. You know, I get it's not all that easy all the time, we have a list of people that haven't responded. So, we just have to make sure we coordinate so that they don't show up on a trail. NURNEY: So, the seven of us are being asked to complete this? HOLDEN: No, no, no, no, no, you've already done it. SNIPES: This is for all people that haven't done it. So as long as it's been filled out. HOLDEN: And if you haven't had a phone call or email from us, then you're good. NURNEY: All right. Thank you. HOLDEN: I have the list if you want to check. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, we're in compliance case closed. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, Item Number 13 Discussion of Possible Action of Fountain Hills Trail System Designated as National Recreational Trails by the Secretary of the Interior. So this is something Bill came across. So, will you want to take us on this journey? - 13 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES CRAIG: Yes. I have a lot of information. And I'll go through some of it and try to answer questions and then look to see if we want to pursue it. National Recreation Trails Designation presently there are around 1300 trails designated in all 50 states. It's part of the National Trail System Act of 1968. Designation is made by the Secretary of Interior, there would be no cost to us. There are five criteria and essentially instead of reading those right now, I will say that we could meet the criteria. This year's application must be made by November 1, but if we don't meet that next year's application will do it. It's an online process. To apply for benefits I'm sure there would be a question coming up. We would get a certificate and letter of certificate and can use the National Recreation Trails logo on our signs at our Trailhead. Free plastic signs are available with their logo on it indicating that metal signs are available, but that's for a cost. Trails are included in an online searchable database sponsored by the American Trails Organization and would be on all states on our state's featured trail web page. There are a number of other benefits indicated there is a 10-page preview application that includes a good bit in terms of making sure we have a letter from the Town approving these pictures of the trails and trailheads. They have something that we could go through as a preview application, and you can look up on National Recreational Trails. And that gives a good bit of information. I'm not sure what the benefits are of being recognized and having the availability of being online and database is preferable or is worth the amount of time it might take. And I don't know if we would have to do this for each of our trails or if we could do it for the trail system. I would have to make a call there, right? They list somebody you can contact for information. IRWIN: Yeah, I'm looking at the application right now. And they want to know the length of trail open to public use. So that implies a single one in my mind. But yeah, we'd want obviously, more than one. CRAIG: At the same time if we did it for one, that process would be easier for the rest of them. You have to go through the length of the trail, the average width of the trail, the average, or the length of the trail, and the average climb and descent for trails. GRZYBOWSKI: Is Scottsdale an NRT are they designated? CRAIG: I don't know. HOLDEN: Would you see any value Kevin for the Town? SNIPES: When we apply for grants and awards, that's where I was going to lead to I would think that this would be a feather in the cap when you're going after any type of grant to help maintain and or improve existing trails, as well as the protection side of fire protection. Any designation that you get definitely gives you a leg up and you lead with that when you're when you're putting in for it. So yeah, I think that there. I don't know a whole lot about it about this particular designation. But any extra designation, especially at the national level, I think plays a heavier hand than not having you know, so definitely give us a leg up if we were able to pull it off. Like Bill said I still I agree with figuring out if it's worth it, depending on what the actual grant applications like some of them are heavy, and some of them are not too bad. So, you got to kind of dive into it a little bit before you can make that decision. GRZYBOWSKI: Because I'm looking over at Sherry's screen here and we see I see some that are 3.5 miles some that are 50 miles. So, it doesn't seem to be any length designation right now. IRWIN: Yeah, there's nothing in Scottsdale, but there is like the South and North Kaibab Trail there is the Central Arizona Trail, you know, the one that goes around the canal. That one's there. And it looks like the only one that's really close to us. A lot of these are like, well, Granite Mountain is that one close. Yes. There's two, there's one in Scottsdale. Yeah. And everything else is kind of far away. Well, yeah, nothing in Scottsdale that I saw. - 14 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES WILLARD: I think this is worthwhile pursuing and then to Kevin's point to see how onerous it is. I think it's not realistic to shoot for this November one that's only a month away. But to go ahead and walk down the path. And if it's not overly onerous, and we've got the time to do it. I think it's worth pursuing. And I wouldn't mind pursuing or knowing nobody else wants to or somebody else. CRAIG: How would that be? Would that be us? Or would that be Conservancy? SNIPES: Depends on where we end up. GRZYBOWSKI: Right, I think it's worth starting to look at it ourselves right now. You know, Bill's already started if DJ wants to help with looking at the research, I think it is worth a call, like, you know, do we do the trail system? Do we have to pick one and start with longer? So yeah, at least we should start the research. Yeah. I think it's a good plan. CRAIG: I'll talk with you about it. GRZYBOWSKI: So we yet again, we can establish a working group. So right now, we got Bill Craig and DJ, if anybody else wants to jump on that working group, we can do that. Brian, Sherry, Steve? IRWIN: I thought we could only have three, right? I just heard you say three. GRZYBOWSKI: Just to Bill and DJ. So, you don't have to answer now. But we could add another person to the working group. So anyway, we're going to establish a working group to start looking at what the National Trail Designation and NRT National Recreational Trails. NURNEY: Can I suggest that maybe we expand at least the first couple of meetings with this subgroup or task force to consider any designations, not just this one, because I don't know there may be other ones that we want to consider applying for as well. I don't know. I mean, this caught me kind of off guard tonight. And it sounds like a great one but maybe there are some others. Or maybe we do more than one. To put it to Kevin's it seems like the more we have the the more we're recognized, the more likelihood we might. There might be to get grants and right recognition for other things. CRAIG: So DJ and I will bring something back next month. Yep. I'm happy to help know with something like that. Yeah. As that part of it. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. leads us to Item Number 14 Update on the Installation of New Trail Counters. Exciting news. Do we have Kevin? SNIPES: We have them in. So that's a good thing. We do not have them installed. I've been trying to find a block of time where I can get with the provider to get everything set up and, and ready. But they are sitting in a box in my office and look beautiful in there. GRZYBOWSKI: We get two or three? Great. NURNEY: And now you know how many people are going into your office? SNIPES: Yeah, it's a lot, but mostly me. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, so that is good news. Right. So hopefully we'll get something installed soon. Trail season's coming up in about a month. So, Item Number 15 Sonoran Conservancy Fountain Hills Liaison Update. HOLDEN: We haven't met since May. But we did work over the summer to put together the fall program that has now been open for registration since August, and the Town's website, ours as well. Well, you go through ours to get to the towns and I think we have 19 Different hikes and activities, including interpretive hikes. So, it should be a pretty busy season. A lot of it is filling up quickly in October. And it's very encouraging. We're also working with Community Services to develop the Hiking Challenge in November. So, it's kind of the same. Well, it's always a little slightly different. So that information should be going out what's already starting to go out. I've seen it on either Instagram or - 15 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES Facebook. So that's what we've been working on and we're now putting together for the middle of October deadline. The spring activities winter, actually January through April. Anybody has any good ideas but we have we have a lot. And so it is very impressive what we're able to put together. So at least it'll be another 19 or 20 activities. I think that's the majority. Like I said, we haven't met. And we will meet again, our meeting is October 2. GRZYBOWSKI: trailblazers, we got some maintenance talking about already. CRAIG: Yes, at the beginning of the season, I hope to do maintenance, and I have trail stewards who are going out and reporting back to me in terms of whether some heavy maintenance is needed. And so far, I haven't gotten much back. I'd like to look at a few of the trails myself, to see. But I hope to start the season with maintenance and the building of the new extension of the Overlook Trail so that that can be done as soon as possible for use, which I think willl get a lot of use. The third thing is signs, we will need to do that. Kevin, I don't know the status. Haven't heard anything yet. SNIPES: I think in that still with Kenny, I think that's over with him right now for that. Not sure. We can, can check with him. And we can figure out what we need, and what our next step is. WILLARD: Okay, so I hope to start the season with all three of those things. Great. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, so, Item Number 16 Trail Counter Activity, which is in your packet. You know, again, we all know some are slow. So the numbers reflect that. So, you know, but we know it'll start picking up soon. So thanks again, for the team that checks our trail counters. Right. And hopefully, we'll have some new ones coming up for this beginning of trail season to get some awesome, no human intervention is required to get the numbers. So that'd be very exciting. HOLDEN: I did have a question, I guess, for Kevin. So what I often find confusing about these charts is that there's nothing that really tells you how many people and we don't have an accurate count of people. And we've talked about this before. And I know Scottsdale does some calculations where they do three point something people per car, and they do count cars. Would it be helpful to have even if we just took the number of people that go through the gate and divide it in half as the number of people? I mean, if you pass through the gate, chances are I mean, okay, I know you can come from Scottsdale, and you can come up from Dixie Mine and all that. But is that important? Or do we look at these numbers? It looks like oh, we have 62,000 people. But it's not even half? I mean, it's not nearly that. And so I guess my question is, depending on who looks at this, is that something that we should address? And if it's not, because what we really want to know is about? Well, it doesn't even tell us about the trails, because of course they're combined. So, you don't know how many there are on one train trail versus another. But it is a nice comparison. And I wouldn't want to give it up because it's just the comparison of volume year over year. But that would really be, is it worth it? Or do we just leave it? SNIPES: Well, I think you could, you could look at that both of those ways, right? I think looking at it year over year, you can see that we're nearly doubling a lot of the months. And so that information is valuable, saying we know what the usage was and how it affected the trail last year, and it's twice as much this year, which means we need to really know that we need to go out and pay attention to the maintenance of this trail because it's doubled what it was a year ago, which I think is probably the bigger usability of having a trail count. When we've done grants and things like that we have divided numbers where we know that there are loops, we've done that as well. So, I think knowing where it's at, and if it's something where someone's out and back primarily then we have modified the numbers to make that make it make sure that it is accurate when we're sending it out. And if you divide it in half, then all you're doing is going okay, we'll work with smaller numbers. Because it's the same number, it's - 16 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES the same differentiation from year to year. I hear what you're saying, we don't want to blow it up. But this is the actual number that cross that path. And so you can use it, however, you want to, I mean, if you want to divide it and make it, so it's that way, then that's fine. It's known when, when it's at the beginning of a loop, that it's someone that's going to come back to us, somewhere along the way. So, it makes it to where you can absolutely do that. And we know we lose a few that continue on and go in Scottsdale. I would say, fewer numbers than what go out and come back. GRZYBOWSKI: The new trail counters also identified bicycles is that the ones we got? SNIPES: Yeah they'll have differentiation as well. And I'm not positive, but they may be directional as well. So that'll eliminate that, that issue as well of going out and coming back. NURNEY: To me, it's almost a relativity thing that's important. You know, it's like, the variation by month and the variation by trail. And at least if I think you're trying to make Yeah, you're able to compare. Because I don't think there's any, there's not going to be any method that's going to accurately count the number of actual human beings. SNIPES: I was thinking we could have DJ go out, watch, and then we'll get the exact count. Give him a clicker and a camera. CRAIG: I think what we are saying is, with the technology that we have, this is the best that we can do. Tell how many clicks there are. GRZYBOWSKI: Depending on what you're doing, you have to either build your own formula, or use a standard guide identify. But I think with the new trail counters, that is going to be exciting because we're having better data when we get them installed. WILLARD: To Janice's point. I mean, we're not going to be if we try to be exact, we're going to be wrong. But if we try to be generally correct, rather than exactly wrong, I think it's important to be able to answer the question, hey, how many people do you think used the trail last year? I think 50,000. There were 96,600 clicks. I think we should be able to answer that. And yeah, it's an estimate. But come on, it's not, you know, let's be generally correct. And be able to put a number out there. SNIPES: Yeah, and like, I think we've been saying it, we can show trends of we've gone up 20% and the number of people that have passed this spot, or we've gone up 10% Or, you know, year over a year or month over month, those numbers are accurate. GRZYBOWSKI: All right, Item 17 is Future Agenda Items. The ones I think we just discussed tonight are: • Working Group Update on the Scope of the MMPC. So, I'm going to take action to draft the document and work with Janice and Steve on that. • Workgroup from the NRT, National Recreational Trails • Update on Installation of New Counters Those are the three that I can think of, we'll have our standard Update Sonoran Conservancy Liaison, Update Trail Counter Activity, and Meeting Minutes. Anything else anybody could think of for Future Agenda items? SNIPES: I'm getting ready to meet up with Stabilizer Solutions on Thursday morning to discuss the entryway up there. If any of you would like to join, you're welcome. We're meeting at 9:30 a.m. on Thursday to discuss putting the Staylock inside the gate up and looking at 100 and 150 feet, something like that, to where we can reinforce that berm. That forces the water to travel off to the side of the trail instead of running the granite and gravel down the hill. It is the product that they've done in Sedona. I - 17 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION SEPTEMBER 26, 2023, VERBATIM MINUTES don't remember what the exact miles of trails are, but lots of miles of trails in Sedona. They've done several in at South Mountain and several other spots around town. I think it's going to be a huge asset to how that entryway works now compared to how it is today. GRZYBOWSKI: We'll have an update from you on that on the next agenda item. That'd be great. WILLARD: All right, then. GRZYBOWSKI: Do I have a Motion to Adjourn? CRAIG: Motion to Adjourn GRZYBOWSKI: Okay IRWIN: Seconded. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor. ALL: Aye Motion Carried 7-0 GRZYBOWSKI: Meeting adjourned at 1810 or 1812 Actually. Thank you everybody. Having no further business, Chair Grzybowski adjourned the Regular Meeting of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission on September 26, 2023, at 6:12 P.M. Scott Grz . ows Chair ST AND PREPARED BY: PRESERVATION COMMISSION Patti Lopuszanski,Exec frfive Assistant CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Regular Meeting held by the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission in the Town Hall Council Chambers on the 26th day of September 2023. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. ED this 24th day of Octobe 2023 GrE Patti Lopuszans� tive Assistant - 18 - https://otter.ai