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HomeMy WebLinkAboutMMPC.2023.1128.MinutesMCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023 A Regular Meeting of the MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION was convened at 16705 E. Avenue of the Fountains in open and public session at 5:04 p.m. Members Present: Chair Scott Grzybowski, Commissioner Bill Craig, Commissioner Janice Holden, Commissioner Sherry Irwin; Commissioner Brian Jennings, Commissioner DJ Williard Absent: Vice Chair Steve Nurney Staff Present: Community Services Director Kevin Snipes; Executive Assistant Patti Lopuszanski https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, let's call to order the November 28, 2023, MMPC Regular Meeting at 1702 (5:02 p.m.). Roll Call, please. LOPUSZANSKI: Chairman Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Vice Chair Nurney is absent. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Craig? CRAIG: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Holden? HOLDEN: Yes. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Irwin? IRWIN: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Jennings? JENNINGS: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Commissioner Willard? WILLARD: Here. LOPUSZANSKI: Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: Any call to reports by commissioners? Does anybody have anything exciting that happened? Related to MMPC? Let me qualify that. Okay. Do we have any Call to the Public? LOPUSZANSKI: No, Call to the Public. GRZYBOWSKI: All right. Okay. Number Item number 5. Consideration and Possible Action for the Approval of McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission, September 26 Verbatim Minutes. I move to approve those minutes. All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Any opposed? No. Item number 6. Consideration Possible Action for the Approval of McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission, October 24, 2023, Verbatim Minutes. I motion to approve those minutes. All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Any opposed? No. Alright, Item number 7. Consideration and Possible Action for the Community Service Strategic Plan through 2024- 2027. I did a quick review of that. I think they've got some good strategic plans in alignment with the Master Plan. Any comments on that? Let me scroll down to find it. HOLDEN: So yeah, I have a couple of things. What was it three years ago, Kevin? They did this every three years. So, three years ago we took this plan and the Commission 2 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES created working groups that identified and highlighted ideas. I don't remember if any of you were on it, I don't think so. We highlighted all the items that could fall under the purview of the commission. And that's how we created the working groups that would correspond to those items. Of course, it's sort of again, I think, because it was a great idea. But I think it is because the commission is an advisory capacity, as opposed to a doing capacity. We decided for good reason we disbanded the working groups at the beginning of this year whenever it was, which actually makes sense. It's a much more, I guess, it's not really a practical approach. But having said that, what it does kind of, I think lead to is areas where the Conservancy who manages a lot of the Town's open spaces could do a lot to help support and promote Community Services, certainly in the way in which a lot of these things are looking to educate and to recreate and to have hikes and to have runs and things kind of like that. And I'm wondering how we could kind of take it to the next step. What would be the best way? And is it the commission to take it to the next step? Or is it the Conservancy? GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, so I think, you know, this is based on what we've also been talking recently about what we do as a commission. This is a great example of where the Conservancy should be. You should get involved with the Community Service Advisory Commission, whether that's to get on their agenda to provide a plan and then you could present to them. But these are the areas I think we should help you with because we're the operating arm. I think this is another good example of where the Conservancy can direct action. HOLDEN: Yeah, I would agree. And I don't know if we take that up with Ryan and kind of get a sense of where they think we can help. I mean, we already have a structure in place that is pretty well defined, we do already throw out about 40 or 40 some -odd events every year, and we can tweak them to something that the Town might want better or more, although I would imagine it's pretty. It's pretty right on for what they would want to do we educate, recreate, and advocate kind of thing. So it's, but yeah, so I think we should sit down and kind of maybe identify a few key item points where we could work together and fulfill some of these issues here. SNIPES: Yeah, so just as kind of a reminder, we did one for three years. And so the idea being a 100%, staff -driven initiative, we start with our managers and supervisors. And then we take it out to our teams below the managers and supervisors, and then they bring it then the managers and supervisors bring it back, and we go through it again. And the 3 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES final step on this one, because of where we were at was Rachael and I looked at it and did some fine tweaking, mostly to pull it further away. The idea is we want our umbrella to be as big as the umbrella can be so that you can fit more things under it. So, if, say, for instance, there's a spot that says we want the Community Center to do X, Y, and Z. Well, what if we want somebody else to do X, Y, and Z as well so we take Community Center out, and we'll put it in Community Services and then it makes it so that parks could do it, or the Community Center could do it. And so, the hardest part about doing this Strategic Plan is it's 3 to 5 years max. We try and do a three-year turnaround on it because we feel like it starts to get bogged down in that time. And you know, which ones are either good or bad or done. And any one of those can apply. And some of that is, depending on what staff you have at any of those times, because you might have somebody good at X, and now you got somebody good at Y. So, you start leaning in a different direction. This is our 1000-foot view, so to speak, instead of the 10,000-foot view, that is our Master Plan. This one's a little more active. And then what will happen is each year, each of the groups will plug in what they did that year into certain spots in here. So, the Strategic Plan starts small, and it grows each year by us adding stuff that we've done that meets those criteria. And then when we start our next one, we look at the full layout of that Strategic Plan. And then we cut it back down to make it again, a 1000-foot view. So just as a heads up, as you're looking at it, you'll notice that there are not a lot of particulars, there are a lot of big ideas. And the idea is we shoot big every time that we try and do something. And so, this makes it to where that the last thing we want to do is start going after something, realize it didn't meet this, and then it's harder to defend when we go to Council. So, we try and make this have as broad of a brushstroke as we can. GRZYBOWSKI: So with that, I mean, do we have to take any action on this? SNIPES: The only thing that we're looking at you to do is vote for approval of the Strategic Plan. That way when we go to Council, we can say that both of our Commission's are in support of it. We took it to CSAC last night and so to you guys tonight and then HCAC next month. GRZYBOWSKI: Got it, very good. HOLDEN: Is it possible to get a copy? How can I get this as a PDF? Can I get a copy of the plan somewhere so that we can look at it and then kind of take it up further? SNIPES: This is the whole thing. But yeah, we can get you a PDF version today. GRZYBOWSKI: Great. Thanks. Can I get a Motion to Approve this? - 4 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES WILLARD: I make a Motion to Approve the Strategic Plan. HOLDEN: I'll second. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Anybody opposed? No? Motion carries. Very good. Alright, that brings us to Item Number 8. Consideration Possible Action Sunsetting the MMPC. So again, based on last month's input, we edited the document and that's the version that's included in the packet is what Janice, Steve and I came up with. So let's open the floor for discussion on that. I think we've met everybody's requirements or input basically, let me find the document. So, I know for sure, that there were a couple of comments about how the Sonoran Conservancy should meet regularly. Well, one, so we added a sentence in there towards the end, it's the third paragraph from the bottom, you go way the bottom it says the Sonoran Conservancy meets regularly with the Community Services Director, and this will not change. So there was a question or concern about when they should meet, we also had a recommendation to change the minimum requirement to semi- annually right annually in there. So there's a minimum in here that says, at least twice a year, the Sonoran Conservancy will meet with CSAC to provide updates and input as to what's happening in trails. And again, additional presentations are at the discretion of the Town and the CSAC. We did recommend the date that they sunset, the MMPC, effective January 1, again, this is just a recommendation coming from us. Staff could shoot it down, staff could say it's delayed, and the Council may not get it on the agenda for two months. So those were the those were the highlights. I remember changing overall. HOLDEN: I don't I don't have any additional comments other than to say that I didn't have a chance to present this version to the Conservancy because we meet the first Monday of the month. So, we're meeting whatever Monday is in December. And I would like to then give them this as the final. I've shared with Pam, the initial draft, but I haven't shared this one yet. So, I certainly would like to include the Board's input. So, I know we don't meet in December, right? GRZYBOWSKI: We don't meet till January 20 something. HOLDEN: So, what's the best way to handle that? Is the deadline date pushed from January 1st to February 1st? And I can get comments back to Patti and we can distribute them if there are any. And if there aren't any, I can also get comments that comment back. So, I guess my only question then is do we need to change the January 1st date? - 5 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: Well, yeah, there might be some other changes. Right. So, I think the best plan for that is that we would just Table this item for any consideration today. We can still discuss it as we are, but we'll table it and wait for your input from the Sonoran Conservancy and the other input, and we can then put it on the January agenda. IRWIN: So, I have a question. What are the logistics behind this? So, it goes to staff first, and then they make comments and concerns and then it goes to the Council? GRZYBOWSKI: Correct. So even if it's a Consent Agenda item. I do know someone on the Town Council since I'm married to her, she recommended that if it's a Consent Agenda item, someone from here should be there. In case there are any questions. So, with the Consent Agenda items they're supposed to just all vote on them at once. But they can break them out. Right? So, she just recommends, however, it gets put on the agenda that some of us should be here. That's the only recommendation on that part. WILLARD: Kevin, do you have any comments to share with the Commission relative to this? SNIPES: Not a whole lot more than what I shared last time, I think that we hit on some really good points and getting those in to make sure that it doesn't get lost down the road, someone will have something to look back on and see how we determined that the connection would be sustainable without the MMPC being here, which I think is doable. I think that through CSAC, as well as offline meetings, are certainly doable. It's not like we don't do that with other groups. So, I think it's something that we can do. But other than that, I mean, I think it opens the door for it to be more of a working process, you know, and it makes it to where that you can have bigger groups working on things together to figure out if it is a viable option or not. And then it can still be brought back to staff and then it can still be run up the food chain and determined if it works or doesn't work and then we can go from there. But yeah, I think, if anything, because of the strength that's on this panel, it limits the strength of this panel, because you can only work with a limited number of people. And so there's an advantage to going the other route, I think. Especially when this was set up to be a get Adero done so now it's maintaining and keeping it preserved the way that it should be. And I think we can do that many ways through this. HOLDEN: So with the idea of still be that we would go to you, so are they going to appoint someone in your to your former position? Do you know? SNIPES: I hope I can hire someone. We're getting ready to do interviews probably next week, for that position. - 6 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES HOLDEN: So okay, so should we change the name of the person or the title, maybe? SNIPES: Yeah, we'll just have it with the title.Yep. GRZYBOWSKI: We didn't put any names in here. So that's good. WILLARD: So I think we're saying we'll table this agenda item, which makes a lot of sense. But are we clear about what we want to do, I think what we want to do is, you know, get the Conservancy input, get that back to the work group, which you're on, and revise this so that when we come next time, we're not tabling this, we're going to revise this, including the potential date. GRZYBOWSKI: Correct. SNIPES: So hopefully, we can get that information back from the Conservancy and then get it put into a document and get it sent out to you guys so that we can vote on it next time and we can get it on the agenda for Council as soon as possible. Exactly. HOLDEN: The reason it didn't come before the Conservancy board yet was because of waiting on this meeting for any comments on it, because we needed to come back to you with these comments. So, it's kind of a chicken in the egg, but we'll get there. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, like I said, there's no rush, you know, let's just get it done right. And, when it happens, it happens. WILLARD: So, I guess the other thing that I'm not sure where it fits, but we should explicitly call out if there are any things that we want to wrap up and conclude as a commission before we recommend disbanding. The one thing I can think of is the next item on the agenda which is the trail news. But that's the only thing I can think about there. There may well be some others. HOLDEN: Well didn't we Scott, look a list of like our to-do list? Didn't we have one of those things? Have we gone through it all? Scott? Because you had the list at one time? And I don't know. GRZYBOWSKI: I mean, yes, I looked through the list. I think we did look. HOLDEN: I don't we should probably kind of either produce it or show it or attach it or something to say well, this was kind of our, our sunset. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, I'll clean it up and send it to Patti to send that to all of us. CRAIG: Scott a couple of things. First of all, under accomplishments in that indication of trails, Andrews Kinsey I thought it had been left out but see that it has been added in. I was looking for the 10-year plan. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, yeah. It wasn't before it No, I added a good point. Yeah. 7 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES CRAIG: The other thing is I felt it very important that the Conservancy have very good access and back and forth with whoever is going to be Kevin's replacement. And I see that as being right now through the CSAC and I thought that we had sort of indicated that it would be preferable before to specifically indicate meetings with Kevin or.... GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, that was that third paragraph from the bottom that we added that the Conservancy meets regularly with the Community Services Director. Right, where we could put Parks and Community Services, we probably don't need to put the word Director. Sorry. And this will not change. CRAIG: Gotcha. Sorry. GRZYBOWSKI: I did. I don't know if we should put director just a Community Services wanted to be the Director is a title. Okay, then that's good. SNIPES: I think that's fine. And then whoever the Director is, can bring in whoever they need to do that meeting. HOLDEN: So did you want to define regularly, as in twice a month, twice a year, three times a year? Because we talked about somewhere that we change it? Didn't we have something in there that said, we've made three times a year? And then we said, Well, why don't we figure out what the best guess is? GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, originally, we only had it annually. Right. And then we also did not have the sentence that the Conservancy regularly meets with the Community Services. And then we changed that last paragraph. CRAIG: Say semi semi-annually. That's CSAC. GRZYBOWSKI: That's the CSAC. Correct. But for the regular. SNIPES: Well, and I think as long as we have the semi-annual CSAC. So that's, that's two guaranteed and then meeting with anyone that's within the Community Services, as far as staff goes, I think saying regularly is okay because then it's on you guys to figure out as the Sonoran Conservancy how often that needs to happen, because if you're at a point where you're almost to doing something, and we say it needs to be in January, then doesn't make any sense. So why don't we leave it to that one has a little bit more leeway in it, where you guys can make those decisions and just reach out and we'll certainly be able to set up meetings with you. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, makes sense. So, what we decided is that we will Table this, as DJ pointed out to the next agenda item, the next meeting, which will be in January, and you're going to take it to Conservancy to get their OK, so we'll be ready for the January meeting to vote on this is what our focus is. - 8 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES SNIPES: And then we should be able to get it in February, maybe the second meeting in February to get it on Council. Right? That would give us enough time. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah. Because they're always looking for stuff. SNIPES: Yeah, they've been short meetings. Yeah, we're out of here by nine last time. So, there's a new League record. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, Item number 9. Consideration of Possible Action for the Naming of Two Recently Approved Trails. So, I think DJ and Bill, or both, one of them gave some recommendations. But here we can discuss them. I don't know if there's anything you've heard from the Conservancy. CRAIG: I did at the last at the Conservancy meeting. Nobody offered anything and I mentioned it at the Steward's and Host's meeting. I haven't heard anything other than what DJ and I.... HOLDEN: And these are your recommendations? GRZYBOWSKI: Yes. WILLARD: Well, I mean, I think recommendations for these. This would be my pick for the names. But I think this deserves some discussion. Bill and I've talked a little bit about I'm not sure Bill signed this. So, I think we can discuss it. But I do think that this is something that as a commission we should decide on before getting disbanded. HOLDEN: So, I guess my only thought would be the Lower Sonoran and then the Upper, not as creative, as the Saguaro View but it sort of places it on the map. That's a thought. It's not necessarily my favorite name. WILLARD: Because there are two trails above the Sonoran then it's problematic in terms of once you say upper well, which upper does that mean? So, for me, and as Bill and I have talked about it, we said you know, one of the naming criteria, I think that we went through earlier on is to describe what we've got. And so, this Saguaro View is a nice descriptor, and then the High Sonoran is, you know, you got the High Sonoran View. JENNINGS: Can I suggest rather than high we use Alta Sonoran seems a little more in line with the community of our heritage. HOLDEN: Alta? JENNINGS: Yeah. Alta meaning high. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah. I mean, I like it. WILLARD: I prefer high. HOLDEN: I like High because it's like the high desert and we have the High Sonoran and I like that one for sure. And it is going to be the highest trail that we have which is a - 9 https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES good reason to skip upper. So is there a huge Saguaro View from the Saguaro View Trail? That I mean, I'm sure you see lots of different things. WILLARD: It highlights a number of Saguaros. Okay, so yeah, it wasn't just a random name. HOLDEN: Well, it could have been Ocotillo too but you see a lot of Sonoran. CRAIG: Yes. I felt they really stand out the Saguaros there on the trail. I tried to pull the trail itself within a nice viewing distance of them so that people could take pictures if they wanted. GRZYBOWSKI: Do we do we need to say view? Can we just say Saguaro Trail? CRAIG: I kind of like Saguaro View. There is another Saguaro Trail I believe down in southern Arizona. I did look that up. I forget exactly where it is now. But that's why we think that Saguaro View is more appropriate. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. HOLDEN: And then we know neither of these are loops. So, we've been consistent with the use of the name trail? GRZYBOWSKI: Correct. We finally got that all figured out. Okay. Then I Motion to Approve the two names as noted in the agenda, the Saguaro View and the High Sonoran. Do I have a second? WILLARD: I second. GRZYBOWSKI: All in favor say Aye. ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Any opposed? No opposed. Motion carries. WILLARD: So now that has to get, again, hopefully, on a Consent Agenda. But that ultimately has to go through the Town Council? GRZYBOWSKI: Correct. Okay, Item number 10. Update and Possible Action for the Fountain Hills Trail System Designations National Recreational Trails, by Secretary of the Interior? Sherry, are you taking that action item? IRWIN: Yeah, I can give you the update. So, I walked through and added some links here in the attachment. There's a webinar that was done in June of this year and it did a really nice job of walking through what the program is, how to get, how to apply, advantages, disadvantages, etc. And then there's a current NRT list that just gives you a list of the United States NRT list throughout the US. So, then I went through, and I looked at what it would take to apply and the application is tedious. But it's not overly tedious. And when I look at the application, the most tedious items are you have to come - 10 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES up with a trail. And then there are they want length, elevation, width, and then the width of certain elevations. And so it's like, you know, five or six sections of the same information, and when I go to and that's why I included the link if you go to the current NRT list, many of in fact most have very few of the information filled out so they've gotten them approved without filling in that information. When I look at the application, depending on regardless of which trail we pick, I would be able to fill out at least half of it just based on information. I can get off of our trail maps and stuff or even the other applications I have here. So, I don't think it's going to be cumbersome, I think the biggest thing we're going to have to do is come up with which trail we want. They did mention, I think it was either in the readings or the video saying that they encourage more than one. We could just do one to start with, or however many we want. The toughest part of the application depends on whether it's on the Department of Agriculture, land, or Department of Interior, anything that's state, local, federal, anything aside, not a national park, and not a national grassland is considered Department of Interior application. So, you fill out the Department of Interior application. And aside from choosing the trail and putting the details in, two things that are weird one, we have to go to the local owners, and in this case, it would be the city, and just get approval saying, Yeah, we agree that this is okay. And then you must do this State Trail administrator support, if you click on that link, there's a consent that you have to go to the state administrator, and it lists all of the administrators for trails within every state. So, it's some guy that sits somewhere in Arizona, that gets the sign -off on this sheet. So, we would just provide it and send it to them. So that would probably be the most difficult thing. I would say, you know, after we've picked a trail, we could do this, I could do it in a couple of days, and then just submit it. So the biggest thing would be waiting on the signature. Kevin would help us with the signatures on the first and the second, we'd have to be at the I guess we're at the mercy of the state's trail administrator support guy. And if you look it some guy, I have no idea. I've never heard his name or anything. GRZYBOWSKI: I've never heard of Mickey Rogers, State Trails Coordinator. IRWIN: Yeah, exactly. SNIPES: He is the one who got us our restroom for Four Peaks. So, we do know him. IRWIN: Perfect. Better you can grease the skids. Yeah. So, the only other thing is unless anybody has questions, I don't know what the criteria are. They didn't talk about the general criteria, and they didn't say everybody who submits gets selected. Right now, they're approving about 10 trails a year. And I don't know if only 10 people applied or if - 11 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES 20 or 100, or whatever. So that would be the only question I might ask this fellow. There are a couple of names we can talk to. But, unless you guys have questions on the specifics, I'd really like to talk about which trails we'd like to recommend. And I have a couple thoughts on that. CRAIG: The other thing is I remember; they will not go to approval till next November. IRWIN: Yeah, right November 1st is the deadline. So, we have plenty of time. HOLDEN: And you did say you can put in for more than one trail. So, if we decide we put in for Ridgeline, and then two years from now we can put in for the High Sonoran. GRZYBOWSKI: But it sounds like you have to complete two separate applications, though. HOLDEN: Right? Well, it would be two years later. IRWIN: I suppose. Yeah. But I mean, I would if we want to put in two now, I'll do two. I mean, because like I said, except for the details on the trails it's not going to be hard. CRAIG: And if we sunset, we ought to take it to Conservancy and make sure that they would follow through. GRZYBOWSKI: And Sherry said she would keep working on it. HOLDEN: We took it to the Board, and we did mention it. Okay, last month. And that you would help out doing it. IRWIN: Okay. Sure. GRZYBOWSKI: All right. I mean, you know, brainstorming here, I like either the Lower Sonoran or Sonoran because they're one of the longer trails. And I like the Ridgeline, just because of the unique view are the two I could think of. HOLDEN: So, I guess I'm curious to know what your suggestions are, given that you've spent more time looking at the criteria. And I mean, I did not dig too deep I will confess. IRWIN: And I will confess, Bill and I had an offline conversation and we both agree on the Lower Sonoran because it's got multiple access. It's easier for bikes than on the regular Sonoran. So that's an idea. I would consider a loop I would rather say upper lower and so it's a complete loop or sorry, Sonoran and lower so it's a complete loop. So you include the Promenade. The other one and I like the Ridgeline so that's an option, too, because it's my favorite trail out there, but one of the other ones that I was thinking of is from the trailhead all the way over to what do we call the other Trailhead, Eagle Mountain or whatever? Golden Eagle? Yeah, so you can Though take the lower Sonoran to the Dixie Mine and then hike back to the trailhead over there on Golden Eagle so that - 12 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES would just give you exposure to trailheads and you know just kind of a different it's not a loop though I kind of.... GRZYBOWSKI: The problem with that is though that it's part of the park. IRWIN: Oh I didn't know.... HOLDEN: Oh yeah the whole thing is in the regional park. GRZYBOWSKI: It's like Andrews Kinsey, I won't do that either, because that connects to Scottsdale. IRWIN: Scottsdale? Is that true? HOLDEN: Once you get off the Sonoran, and you get onto the Dixie Mine Trail that's all the Regional Park. IRWIN: Okay. All right. Well, then never mind that wouldn't work. CRAIG: That's called the Sonoran. All the way there at the end of the Lower Sonoran to the Dixie Mine. IRWIN: Okay. Gotcha. All right. Well, never mind, that one. So, I guess it's Ridgeline, and either the loop of Promenade, Sonoran, and Lower Sonoran. HOLDEN: Does it need to be a bike with the bikes? Because the Ridgeline with this would disqualify? GRZYBOWSKI: No, it could be anything. HOLDEN: I mean, if it has bike access, does that.... IRWIN: I think if it's multi -use, it's probably better probably puts it. Like if we were to get ranked. And again, I can call this guy or send him an email or something and ask him about, like, is there a ranking? Well, we know what the criteria is. There's like five slides of criteria, but they don't say how many people apply? And you know how selective it is? GRZYBOWSKI: Well, yeah, I mean, I think we're going to go with one, we got to do the Lower Sonoran. IRWN: Okay. HOLDEN: Or the loop? Sonoran, and lower, right. CRAIG: If we seem to have a connection with that, fellow, probably good to call and ask him, should we just do Lower Sonoran or your suggestion of Promenade Lower Sonoran? IRWIN: When you say the fellow you mean, Mickey Rogers? I don't think he has anything to do with that though. All he does is sign off the person I'm talking about is the NRT guy. Oh, the actual guy at NRT. I can email them or call them, I could probably just email them and say, Okay, what's your criteria? You know, how selective is this? And if - 13 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES there is an element of selection, is it preferable to do something that's a multi -trail or multi -use over single -use? And I think, bring that back? Okay. HOLDEN: And then I guess, you could do the Ridgeline and the Lower Ridgeline, if that was where we decided to go because you'd have that. You don't have a great number. You don't have the three crossovers. You have only one. But it still is a nice loop. IRWIN: Yeah, it's like a little loop. Yeah. Okay. HOLDEN: And then I forget what, how do you use this? In what ways do we assume we get the designation? IRWIN: Okay, that's the cool part. So, they used to have an ambassador program, but they don't do that anymore. They wouldn't even tell me what the ambassador program was. But if you go to one of the last couple of slides it talks about the benefits and we get an additional sign. That's a free sign, we get. And so national registered tree, yeah. And it tells you how many you get. And then you can apply for some free plastic ones and stuff. But then if you look at the very last slide, it's got kind of you can see how it looks on a post against the trail. It's just cool another feather in our cap. JENNINGS: I saw one of these last summer around the lake in California. WILLARD: I think one of the things we talked about when this first came up was that this is a very nice addition to the Town saying hey, here's the amenities in Fountain Hills that we have a National Recreation Trail. So I think there's some real benefit. SNIPES: It could help us get grants down the road too. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, well, that's good. We have a plan. Keep moving forward. So we should put this on the next agenda as well. Like another update on this very good. Okay. Okay, Number 11 update from the Sonoran Conservancy Liaison, Janice? HOLDEN: So a couple of things. I was really surprised. We had two articles in the Fountain Hills Times, one was on the Trailblazers and the other was an interview I gave to a woman who was writing for I forget what the bigger name of the papers group is. And it was about trails and it was Fountain Hills and Phoenix area. She was really lovely to work with. And so I go to try and grab the link so that I can share it and the Fountain Hills Times is now like the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal and I must pay and I keep laughing like, is the journalism the same? Like they won't let you share the link? Unless you're a subscriber. GRZYBOWSKI: Right? Then if you share it with somebody who's not a subscriber it doesn't work and they cannot open it. - 14 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES HOLDEN: It's like a New York Times article. And it's like, wait a minute, I sent them a note going, wait a minute, I get my New York Times. I know I can't share it with non - New York Times, people, you can't share a Wall Street Journal article. And now you can't share the Fountain Hills joins. So I mean, those two articles. Sorry, you can't copy paste because it's full of ads. So every time you pull up the article it's 14 pages. I'm not printing that. But I don't know how to do that. I mean, if there's a way to do it, let me know. There's not an easy way now. And if you take a photocopy, it's just kind of I mean, you can but I can't the article is too big, and I can't photocopy it. So, I was just really disappointed. We've done a lot getting ready for this big season. We did the challenge, which was a pretty big success. I haven't seen the Town's final results yet on how many people participated. And I'm not sure we know yet how many participated in all our events, but we had a great turnout. And really, what we're seeing is that every year, we get more people signing up early. So, we used to have events where we only showed like five people signed up now everything is a minimum of 10. And that would be a low number for all our events. December is full except for two big hikes that are only at 10. But you know, sometimes that's okay. So, I'm pretty excited. I think we're pleased and that all the January through April, events are now up and loaded in the town system so people can start booking, which is great. We've got a whole bunch of different hikes and different events. I think it's a nice, well-balanced program. And I hope everyone will take advantage of some of them. We also had the training. So I think on November 5, we did and on November 3, you did your training for the Trailblazers for the crew leaders, right? And on the fifth of November on Sunday, we trained the hosts and the stewards and it was a nice turnout of about 35 people and well attended, which was really good. And then we have the two we're hosting to first aid two -and -a -half hour training classes so that our people out there are trained and familiar with what to do in the event of an emergency, including use of the AED, which is up in the bathroom for anyone that doesn't know. So that's on December 1 on Friday. And then the second one I think is January 9. Those normally get well attended. I think we're set for the season. And we're looking forward, we've got about a total of 40 events more than 40, I think, which is very impressive. We had the survey summary that I thought it was an impressive number, the Town does take stats on, you know, they do a survey, as most of you know, if you've ever taken one of well, you don't have to sign up. But if you do sign up, you'll get a survey and be asked a lot of, you know, reasonably good questions. So, one of them is how did you hear about us? And I think the amazing thing is that the largest number of people are - 15 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES repeat participants, which speaks highly to how we organize it. And the people who we have leading it are stewards but also are the people who are kind of our people who know the, you know, what they're talking about the birds and the skies. And so it's a nice thing. And then the next thing is that they refer family and friends. So that's huge I mean, that's speaks highly to the program. And then our newsletter, which is the basic form of information. So I was really pleased to see that so I think that speaks well. And I think that's all I have for today. SNIPES: I think from now on we're going to make it so you have to sign up to fill out the forms. I think it just makes sense. HOLDEN: So I think that that's it. We have these now but we're not printing them. These are the Town's maps. Are you going to redo them when we get the new trail names? SNIPES: We're not printing them that is right? It's just too expensive. We'll probably redo something similar but in a more digital -friendly version than something that's in a trifold setup. HOLDEN: We will use something like this that we're working on, which is a one page and we can put it at the Chamber of Commerce. And we have to figure out whether we want to promote harder, because if we're kind of fall, we don't want to exceed our fullness, because it just puts more pressure on stewards to have to come in, you know, so it's kind of an interesting position to be in for the first time that we're going to have to decide on because Pam and I, as co-chairs don't agree. So we're going to have to figure out what the best way to kind of like we put all this stuff together, I like to promote it. But the truth is why people come and then we don't have to promote it so hard. So it's a good thing. good problem to have. And that was it. Anything else on your side Bill? GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, that brings us to the Update to Stayloc Installation Entryway. SNIPES: Tomorrow morning, 7am to 8am. They should be up there starting, we're closing the trailhead for tomorrow. There are signs up there to let people know we posted on the Town's Facebook page and other social media platforms. HOLDEN: And we in turn posted it on ours as well. SNIPES: So, we're trying to get out in front, I'm sure that it'll make no difference. GRZYBOWSKI: I did see it in several different mediums on the Fountain Hills Connections. I saw it on the Conservancy page. You know, I've seen it in the paper. We - 16 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES were at the trails, of course, and I saw the sign there too. So, I've seen it a bunch of places. SNIPES: And you ignored it every single time. GRZYBOWSKI: Right? If I didn't have to work tomorrow, I would have come up to see it. CRAIG: What time did you say? SNIPES: Between 7 am and 8am? They'll be there. They asked us to have it unlocked by then. I think it's going to be a really cool project, I'm anxious to see it once they get it done. I've seen it used for golf cart pathways and stuff like that. Which is the only thing they were doing parking lots and golf cart pathways is all they were doing. And then when Sedona asked him to do the massive amount that they did, it changed their whole thought process on how to do it and what equipment to use, and how they can work that in. So, I think it's going to be a cool asset to that area. It's a very unique problem in that spot, I think just because of the different mediums that are coming together. So hopefully this will help eliminate some of that risk there right at the entrance where everybody must cross it. Nothing like your most dangerous spot to be the first thing is that that's a good test. GRZYBOWSKI: It's a good test. JENNINGS: Are they going to be doing grading in conjunction with this? Or are we just using what we have? SNIPES: A little bit of both. So, we're changing some slope to try and force more water to move where we want it to move. It'll probably be more above -ground material and manipulation than it will be making the rock do what rock doesn't want to do. But they'll certainly be doing a little bit of both. CRAIG: Seven of us were up there today and it's all swept off. SNIPES: That is awesome. I appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, that'll make a big difference in their speed of getting in and out too. CRAIG: So yeah, we had to push it more towards where the drainage issues are going to be instead of uphill. Yeah. And we didn't take any of the brittle Bush off the side. I'm not sure if that was wanted or not. But in terms of a base, there's not a lot of that Digi. SNIPES: Excellent. I appreciate that. Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: All right. Number 13. Installation of New Trail Counters. Is there any update on that? - 17 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES SNIPES: So they're not installed yet. I have got them all working and they're counting people that walk across my desk as we speak. It's zero in case anyone's wondering. But I was messing around with the online stuff and I wanted to do it in my office versus out there but it is. It's neat technology. It's set up to where going out and setting it up in the field and then coming in and being able to manipulate that from your office to do the accounting in the ways you want it to do. I'm impressed with it so far, there's a lot to it more than what I thought there would be to figure it all out. And so, my times semi limited from time to time, so I keep setting calendar times they get me as a slot open, and then it just depends on that really closes or not so but I did have them out and they can track different things, you can set up windows of time to have it if you want to a certain window of time. So, it's, it's, I think it's going to be helpful for us in the long run. So, I'm excited to get them up there. And I'm hoping to still pull that off this week. Now that I've gotten a couple of activated and ready to roll, there are three of them. So I just need to do one more, and then I can take them all out there and set them up and then they'll have pinpoints on mapping GPS markings, where you'll know exactly where they're at, you can set them up with pictures of where they're at, to where that when you look online, you'll see the picture of exactly where it's at, you'll know exactly what you're looking for. So, if someone else were to have to go up there, it would make it way easier to find the exact location to where if you were trying to hide them, to where the people wouldn't see him, you could certainly hide them and still get pictures of them and be able to show the people so. So yeah, I think it's going to be a good technology for us. HOLDEN: Where are the three going? SNIPES: Because I know the parking lot, I want to get counts and the building, you're going to put it on the what I'm what I'm trying to do is catch. And once I get up there, I'll see if it's, if we're able to shoot clear across, that'd be great, because then I can use a single one for dual direction. And then that'll allow us to see when the parking lots are full. And it won't be a lie. It'll be a factual base rate. And so I'm hoping it'll be able to shoot clear across and if it won't, then I should be able to take two of them and do the same thing. It just won't be as simple as having it all calculated by a single device. And then the other one, I was thinking if we can get it right inside and just for a while until we figure out how they work. And we'll keep them close to where we can mess with them. And then I would think just the opposite, we'd want to be as far away as possible to whether we're not going out. And having to do those readings as far away from the gate. But until we run them for a little bit, I'd like to get some numbers on him. And by then - 18 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES we might just be buying new, more new ones to replace the other ones that are farther away, and then they won't matter either. So just to where we can have them close and get a handle on him and figure out the goods and the bads and the uglies to them we can move them out further and take care of them that way. GRZYBOWSKI: So yeah, I assume you probably have to set a post, right, it's to get clear across. SNIPES: So yeah, and there is a there's a post on that there's a counter there. And so I'm hoping I can grab that counter spot, run clear all the way across, and just put in a single it's like 33 feet, I think is the max distance. So, it'll be close, in certain spots up there to be able to get both directions. So, once we get up there and get it set up we will know. GRZYBOWSKI: Awesome. Let's see item, forgot the item number, but the Trail Counter Report is the next item on the agenda. And, you know, again, looking at the numbers is consistent with what we see it's October, big numbers, things are going up Lake Overlook is nearly twice as much as it was in the previous month. The Promenade almost twice as much as well, right? So the parking lot is not quite twice as much, which is interesting. So but the point is everything's going up. And that's what we'd like to see. Right. So I would assume November's numbers are going to be bigger, because there's more and more people showing up. So, all good. SNIPES: Why don't you figure this to the time of year when more and more people are coming with family and friends that are coming out to visit so it's fewer cars, twice as many people in the car? This just says if we don't continue to increase our parking lot, people will get smarter and bring more people in cars. GRZYBOWSKI: I mean, that's on Saturday morning. It was funny because all of us Trailblazers were parking and down the road, and people would come up and like, oh, wow, really busy full. There are still parking spots. But yes, they see this car down the street and they think they assume it's full. Like, no, we're still there's still spots. So it's interesting. Right, and we start our exercise early, because we know we got to walk up the street up there just to get going to go get cool tools and then go out. So it's good. It's a good morning. No worries. Okay, let's bring us to number 15, which is our Future Agenda Items. I do know we mentioned we're going to have the Sunsetting MMPC, of course, will have the Approval of the Minutes if verbatim gets some done in time. Let's see. What else are we going to have on there? We'll have an Update from the Conservancy, an Update about the Stayloc, an Update on the Trail Counters and an Update from the NRT. Does anybody else think of another future item? - 19 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES CRAIG: I've got a couple of items yet to request, once again Town equipment to go above where the Stayloc is going to be up to the culvert. I know this is probably not going to be an easy thing to get done. But it would be between that and just that area right before the North Leg. If there's any way of getting those two areas smoothed out better, it would be an addition to the Promenade and Preserve, I think. GRZYBOWSKI: Right? And that will take heavy machinery so yeah. That'll take heavy machinery. Yeah. HOLDEN: Well, somebody did a nice one of the one of you did a nice job. I'm cleaning out the promenade, right, where the North Leg starts. Bad? Urn, yeah, I week or two ago. or longer? I don't know, I thought it looked really good. Before the night hike, I always kind of go to check. CRAIG: I do have one or two people that do things on their own. And I've got a second item, the Movement of the Toolboxes. I've changed a little bit where I think one should go instead of at the first crossover between the Sonoran and Lower Sonoran with the new trails going in, Saguaro View, and a High Sonoran. And I think one of the toolboxes should be at the end of the Promenade where there's better access to the other trails. And I initially wanted to have the other one where the power lines are, where they crossed the Ridgeline. But if we can get Scott's suggestion of a big hand truck and get them out, at least as far as where the Lower Ridgeline starts. I think we could probably do it with a hand truck. And if we could get the Town to pay for running that. GRZYBOWSKI: We just got to find six younger people to help me. CRAIG: I'm not sure what we might be able to get through the gate and drive out. I'm not sure if we can get over where that new culvert is past that. But with somebody with a jeep, we might be able to take it out to the end of the Promenade and on one of them. SNIPES: Well, we could probably take one of our mules out there too, and get it out there as are Utility Cart. Just strap it on the back of that. It would make it out through there. GRZYBOWSKI: Yeah, they got off -road tires. SNIPES: Yeah, they're all four-wheel drive. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, that's a pretty full agenda for a meeting that we may not have. No worries. So yeah, our next meeting is going to be January 22, 2024. We do get the Christmas break. No, MMPC meeting is in December. LOPUSZANSKI: Scott, DJ did let me know I put the wrong date for the next meeting. It is the 23rd. So, please note January 23. Thank you. - 20 - https://otter.ai MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN PRESERVATION COMMISSION NOVEMBER 28, 2023, VERBATIM MEETING MINUTES GRZYBOWSKI: It's a Tuesday. Right? Okay, just checking. Okay, so then I would like to Motion to Adjourn. WILLARD: Second. GRZYBOWSKI: I have a second. Okay. All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRZYBOWSKI: Meeting adjourned at 1802 (6:02 p.m.) Having no further business, Chair Grzybowski adjourned the Regular Meeting of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission on November 28, 2023, at 6:02 P.M. MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN P&LSERVATION COMMISSION Cott Grzybowski, Chair ATTEST AND PREPARED BY: Patti Lopusza ski, ecutive Assistant CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Regular Meeting held by the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission in the Town Hall Council Chambers on the 28th day of November 2023. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. DATED thi14`' day of Nl rch 2024 Patti Lopusza(hski xecutive Assistant -21 - https://otter.ai