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HomeMy WebLinkAboutAGENDApacket__08-14-23_0250_515       NOTICE OF MEETING REGULAR MEETING FOUNTAIN HILLS PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION      Chairman Peter Gray  Vice Chairman Scott Schlossberg Commissioner Patrick Dapaah Commissioner Clayton Corey Commissioner Susan Dempster Commissioner Dan Kovacevic Commissioner Rick Watts    TIME:6:00 P.M. – REGULAR MEETING WHEN: MONDAY, AUGUST 14, 2023 WHERE:FOUNTAIN HILLS COUNCIL CHAMBERS 16705 E. AVENUE OF THE FOUNTAINS, FOUNTAIN HILLS, AZ Commissioners of the Town of Fountain Hills will attend either in person or by telephone conference call; a quorum of the Town’s Council,  various Commission, Committee or Board members may be in attendance at the Commission meeting. Notice is hereby given that pursuant to A.R.S. §1-602.A.9, subject to certain specified statutory exceptions, parents have a right to consent before the State or any of its political subdivisions make a video or audio recording of a minor child. Meetings of the Commission are audio and/or video recorded and, as a result, proceedings in which children are present may be subject to such recording. Parents, in order to exercise their rights may either file written consent with the Town Clerk to such recording, or take personal action to ensure that their child or children are not present when a recording may be made. If a child is present at the time a recording is made, the Town will assume that the rights afforded parents pursuant to A.R.S. §1-602.A.9 have been waived.    REQUEST TO COMMENT   The public is welcome to participate in Commission meetings. TO SPEAK TO AN AGENDA ITEM, please complete a Request to Comment card, located in the back of the Council Chambers, and hand it to the Executive Assistant prior to discussion of that item, if possible. Include the agenda item on which you wish to comment. Speakers will be allowed three contiguous minutes to address the Commission. Verbal comments should be directed through the Presiding Officer and not to individual Commissioners. TO COMMENT ON AN AGENDA ITEM IN WRITING ONLY, please complete a Request to Comment card, indicating it is a written comment, and check the box on whether you are FOR or AGAINST and agenda item, and hand it to the Executive Assistant prior to discussion, if possible.   REGULAR MEETING    REGULAR MEETING        1.CALL TO ORDER, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE AND MOMENT OF SILENCE – Chairman Gray     2.ROLL CALL – Chairman Gray     3.CALL TO THE PUBLIC Pursuant to A.R.S. §38-431.01(H), public comment is permitted (not required) on matters NOT listed on the agenda. Any such comment (i) must be within the jurisdiction of the Commission, and (ii) is subject to reasonable time, place, and manner restrictions. The Commission will not discuss or take legal action on matters raised during Call to the Public unless the matters are properly noticed for discussion and legal action. At the conclusion of the Call to the Public, individual commissioners may (i) respond to criticism, (ii) ask staff to review a matter, or (iii) ask that the matter be placed on a future Commission agenda.     4.CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: approving the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission June 12, 2023. APPROVED   5.PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: Request for a SPECIAL USE PERMIT to allow up to 7 apartment units in the CC, Common Commercial Zoning District, on three lots totaling 0.27 acres located north of the northwest corner of El Pueblo Boulevard and Ivory Drive (16822, 16828, and 16830 E. Pueblo Blvd). Case #SUP23-000006. APPROVED   6.COMMISSION DISCUSSION/REQUEST FOR RESEARCH to staff.    7.SUMMARY OF COMMISSION REQUESTS from Development Services Director.    8.REPORT from Development Services Director.    9.ADJOURNMENT - 7:22 PM     CERTIFICATE OF POSTING OF NOTICE The undersigned hereby certifies that a copy of the foregoing notice was duly posted in accordance with the statement filed by the Planning and Zoning Commission with the Town Clerk. Dated this ______ day of ____________________, 2023. _____________________________________________  Paula Woodward, Executive Assistant The Town of Fountain Hills endeavors to make all public meetings accessible to persons with disabilities. Please call 480-816-5199 (voice) or 1-800-367-8939 (TDD) 48 hours prior to the meeting to request a reasonable accommodation to participate in the meeting or to obtain agenda information in large print format. Supporting documentation and staff reports furnished the Commission with this agenda are available for review in the Development Services' Office.    Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting of August 14, 2023 2 of 3    Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting of August 14, 2023 3 of 3 ITEM 4. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS STAFF REPORT    Meeting Date: 08/14/2023 Meeting Type: Planning and Zoning Commission Agenda Type: Submitting Department: Development Services Prepared by: Paula Woodward, Executive Assistant Staff Contact Information: Paula Woodward, Executive Assistant Request to Planning and Zoning Commission (Agenda Language):  CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: approving the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission June 12, 2023. Staff Summary (Background) The intent of approving meeting minutes is to ensure an accurate account of the discussion and action that took place at the meeting for archival purposes. Approved minutes are placed on the Town's website and maintained as permanent records in compliance with state law.   Related Ordinance, Policy or Guiding Principle N/A Risk Analysis N/A Recommendation(s) by Board(s) or Commission(s) N/A Staff Recommendation(s) Staff recommends approving the meeting minutes of the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission June 12, 2023. SUGGESTED MOTION MOVE to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission June 12, 2023. Attachments Summary Minutes & Verbatim Transcript  Planning and Zoning Commission June 12, 2023 1 of 2 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION JUNE 12, 2023 1. CALL TO ORDER, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE AND MOMENT OF SILENCE Chairman Gray called the Regular Meeting of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission held on June 12, 2023, to order at 6:00 p.m. and led the Commission and audience in the Pledge of Allegiance and Moment of Silence. 2. ROLLCALL Commissioners Present: Chairman Peter Gray: Vice Chairman Scott Schlossberg; Commissioner Clayton Corey; Commissioner Susan Dempster; Commissioner Dapaah (telephonically); Commissioner Dan Kovacevic; Commissioner Rick Watts Commissioners Absent: None Staff Present: Development Services Director John Wesley, Senior Planner Farhad Tavassoli, and Executive Assistant Paula Woodward 3. CALL TO THE PUBLIC No one from the public spoke. 4. CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: approving the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission May 8, 2023. MOVED BY Commissioner Dempster to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission May 8, 2023, SECONDED BY Commissioner Corey. Vote: 7 - 0 Unanimously 5. CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: annual report on the implementation of the Fountain Hills General Plan 2020. MOVED BY Commissioner Corey to recommend the Town Council approve the annual report on the implementation of the Fountain Hills General Plan 2020. SECONDED BY Dempster. Vote: 7 - 0 passed – Unanimously 6. PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION, AND POSSIBLE ACTION: Ordinance 23-04, repealing and replacing Zoning Ordinance Chapter 6, Sign Regulations. MOVED BY Chairman Gray to continue Agenda Item 6 to the Planning and Zoning Commission meeting, September 11, 2023. SECONDED BY Commission Kovacevic. Vote: 7 - 0 Unanimously 7. SUMMARY OF COMMISSION REQUESTS from Development Services Director. 8. REPORT from Development Services Director. 9. ADJOURNMENT Chairman Gray adjourned the Regular meeting of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission held on June 12, 2023, at 7 :46 p.m. Planning and Zoning Commission June 12, 2023 2 of 2 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Chairman Peter Gray ATTESTED AND PREPARED BY Paula Woodward, Executive Assistant CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Regular Meeting held by the Planning and Zoning Commission, Fountain Hills in the Town Hall Council Chambers on June 12, 2023. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. DATED this day of June 14, 2023. Paula Woodward, Executive Assistant TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 1 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 43 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes June 12, 2023 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 2 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 43 GRAY: All right. Let's go ahead and call the meeting to order with the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence, please. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [MOMENT OF SILENCE OBSERVED] GRAY: All right. Paula, roll call, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: (No audio response). ALL: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Here. DAPAAH: Here. GRAY: Ah, he is here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic. DAPAAH: Right here. KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg. SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray. GRAY: Here. WOODWARD: And did I hear Commissioner Dapaah on the line? DAPAAH: Yes. I am here, Paula, thank you. WOODWARD: Thank you. GRAY: Nice to hear from you, Commissioner. DAPAAH: Thank you. GRAY: All right. Agenda Item 3, Call to the Public. Paula, any speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Are you sure, Farhad? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 3 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 43 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). [LAUGHTER] GRAY: All right. Number 4, Consideration and Possible Action: approving the regular meeting minutes from May 8, 2023. Commissioners, comments or any motion, please? Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: I would like to make a motion to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission, May 8th, 2023. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Second. GRAY: Very good. All in favor. ALL: Aye. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Aye. GRAY: Thank you. You're spotlighted, sir. WOODWARD: Seven, zero. GRAY: All right. Number 5, Consideration and Possible Action on the annual report on the implementation of the Fountain Hills General Plan 2020. Farhad. TAVASSOLI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. The reason this item is before you is because the Arizona State statutes requires -- oh, I beg your pardon. Let me start from top. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, and the public. The reason this item is before you is because the Arizona State statutes requires each governing body of each municipality with a general plan to provide and update to the governing body, but also the Planning and Zoning Commission. So that's why I'm before you tonight, to kind of give you a progress report, if you will, of some of the implementation items in the General Plan and how we're progressing or how we're moving forward with them. But this is a particular focus on the '20-'22 calendar year. I know it's been about six months, but information has been coming in from various departments that are involved with some of the policies, goals, and implementation actions in the General Plan. And hence the reason here we are just before the next fiscal calendar year, presenting this before you. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 4 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 43 So real quick, the report reviews the adoption of the 2020 General Plan, which is the current in effect General Plan. The General Plan covers eight specific elements related to economic development, mobility, connectivity, public works projects, and parks and rec, and the like. And as I said, this is to provide an overview of some of the implementation progress as of now. And hopefully, we can generate some discussion. As I mentioned, the General Plan was updated in 2020. That's an updated from the -- update from the 2010 General Plan. And although the -- it's been about three years since the 2020 General Plan has taken effect. It might be -- I think it's still a good idea to go over some of the differences between the two. So the current General Plan focuses on neighborhoods, environment, and the economy. But more importantly, it looks at character areas instead of kind of looking at our inventory of specific land uses and how much is accounted for, for each specific land use. It also establishes procedures and requirements for the annual report. And again, the current General Plan was approved by Council in June but it was ratified by the voters in November of 2020. So really, this is our third year into the General Plan. And I'll be providing some overview of how we plan on moving forward at the end of this presentation. So the General Plan provides an implementation strategy, which is included in the last few pages of the General Plan, the last several pages, actually. And why don't I just jump over to one page of the General Plan to give you an overview of how it's organized, while using the previous slide as kind of a guide. But the implementation strategy, as I mentioned, it covers each element of the General Plan. Here's a page from the Thriving Environment Element, the Built Environment, Connectivity, Access, and Mobility. So the goals are organized numerically in each section. Each goal has policies and implementation actions associated with them. There's a column here about the lead department and/or agency that is responsible for implementing -- or I should say primarily responsible for implementing the actions listed and the anticipated timeframe, ranging from immediate to long term. I'll talk a little bit more about that at the end. And also, some additional comments and some of the players involved with each implementation action. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 5 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 43 So the annual report requirements, which are stated in the General Plan but really are dictated by the State statute, is to provide you with a review of the planned amendments processed during the previous year, 2022. But I can tell you, there have been none in that calendar year. Also, provide progress and strategy for implementation, which is really what the report lists. It just discusses the -- some of the accomplishments made by each department relating to each General Plan element. Also, review of some policy issues. None have been identified yet. And also some recommendations for amendments, and we have none to present before you today. But really, what the report does is highlight some of the implementation actions that have been taken in the previous calendar year. By no means is it -- does it cover each goal under each General Plan element. Really, it's just a small percentage of what's listed in the implementation strategy. But some of the things that are noteworthy are listed here. A couple of zoning ordinance text amendments that were approved by the trust. The thriving neighborhoods plan include the additional provisions and limitations for guest houses and additions to guest house -- I should say primary residences such as mother-in-law suites and other guest quarters in a primary residence. I highlighted briefly the sidewalk infill project along Saguaro Boulevard. A very significant gap has been completed over by around Rand Drive where the commercial area is. The north leg of the -- I should say the North Leg Trail has been completed, which is pretty significant because it's about a 4,000-foot trail between Eagles Nest and Sunridge Canyon. The McDowell Mountain Preserve Trail Master Plan has been revised. And also, the town online and permitting system, that was actually launched back in 2021. But it's really helped us in moving forward a lot of these projects with regard -- especially with regards to Park Place and some of the site design and design review applications that have been coming in. The Economic Development Department is working with the Arizona Office of Tourism, the various Indian communities, to identify grant funding opportunities. And I've also listed in their multiple public works projects. Of significant -- I think I said to note that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 6 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 43 the town completed 390 lane miles of street sweeping and 290 square yards of preservative treatment, the majority of which was along Shae Boulevard and areas that were in need of considerable repair. But I mentioned that the anticipated timeframes are listed in the General Plan. Range anywhere from ongoing to long range. Now, I haven't concluded my report with any suggestions with regards to the policies listed there. And you know, the fact that we may need to reevaluate some of these in the coming year because, for example, the short-range timeframe applies to some of the implementation strategies that I spoke about earlier. Well, we're coming up on four years of the General Plan and it doesn't look like we have gone too deeply into some of these projects with regards to economic development, public works, not to single any department out, but in the coming year, we think we're going to reevaluate some of the policies and the direction that we would like to go in and come back to you in about a year from now to discuss what the results of that reevaluation were. So with that, I'll conclude my presentation and open up the questions or comments. GRAY: You might get off easy, Farhad. Commissioners, any questions for Farhad? Commissioner Dapaah, any questions? DAPAAH: No. No, I do not have any questions at this time. Thank you. GRAY: So Farhad, are you looking for -- you're not looking for any action, necessarily. It's just informative? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, the only action I guess you could say we're looking for is, I guess a motion to forward this over to the Town Council at their next meeting. GRAY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: And you know, it's open to suggestions for revisions to the General Plan as well -- or not the General Plan but the update. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. COREY: No. I think it looks good, Farhad. So I'd like to make a motion that we forward the General Plan Annual Report to the Town Council. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: I will second that motion. GRAY: All in favor of the motion to forward the Plan to the Town Council. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 7 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 43 ALL: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven, zero. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. All right. Agenda Item 6, public hearing, consideration, and possible action 23-04, to repeal and replace Ordinance Chapter 6. Mr. Wesley. WESLEY: My expectation is this ought to go just as fast as the first item. Maybe not. Okay. All right. Chairman, Commissioners, good evening. We will continue our review of the sign ordinance we began back in April with review, but again, just a little bit of background. Town Council, after some review and discussion, directed the staff and P and Z Commission to look at the sign ordinance based on some comments and suggestions they had for possible amendment and go through this text amendment process through the public hearings to bring back to them, then, some recommended modifications along the lines of what they were thinking. In particular, looking for opportunities in the code to be more business friendly and allow businesses to provide more signage to help customers find them and take advantage of the things they offer. We did have a, again, a discussion back in April with a draft that included a first-round attempt to include in it what the Council had identified as possible changes and a few things that staff had identified. We had a very good discussion at that meeting. And so with that, I have gone into what was the draft you saw in April and adjusted that with what I had as take aways from your April discussion as possible recommendations to take back to the Town Council. But again, subject to your ongoing discussion this evening. So we're going to go through the sections of the ordinance here and see what those changes are and what additional comments you have and where I need to continue to make modifications. So Section 6.01 of the ordinance is the Introduction. There were no changes identified previously. And still no changes suggested. So unless somebody on the Commission has identified something in Section 6.01, we can move on to 6.02. In Section 6.02, it provides definitions that are used in the ordinance. And with -- we TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 8 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 43 have a definition relating to the sign types. It was suggested that we add here a reference to Section 6.08, where we then provide the regulations associated with each of those sign types. So a person that might just look at the definitions and thinks that's all there is would know they'd need to go on into 6.08 to find the details. So unless there -- I gave an example here on awning or canopy sign. Similar thing then with each of the other sign types. I need to go ahead and list them all out here. Any questions, comments, changes there? And Section 6.03, which deals with building permits and fees, there is a statement in here with regard to whether a building permit is needed. And it says, "No building permit for temporary signs." But then it says, "except banner sign." And going back and reviewing this, while there isn't a building permit required for banner signs, there's a banner sign. And we didn't want there to be confusion. So the suggestion is we take out this, "except banner signs," here so that, again, there's no confusion. That's a building permit that's needed for a banner sign. Any questions, concerns about that one? See, this is so easy. Section 6.04, no proposed changes to the penalties and -- or the Violation and Penalty section. Section 6.05, Enforcement and Remedies. No proposed changes in that section. Section 6.06, Sign Plans. No proposed changes in that section. Section 6.07, General Regulations. So it covers a lot of different topics within the sign code. We have just a few things here that were suggested for modification. This first one in Section 6.07 B 1, this talks about temporary signs in the right-of-way, because there's some changes that are being made elsewhere to allow more signage in the right-of-way, it seemed like it would be helpful to adjust the wording here a little bit to make sure there were no conflicts, with the understanding that, that indeed there are places where signs will be allowed on the right-of-way. Any questions, concerns about this language? WATTS: Chairman. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: John, in B 1 a, where it says, "Common area can be used for" -- "signage for any occupancy within the condominium." TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 9 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 43 WESLEY: Right. WATTS: Does that mean we can have 100 signs out there if there's 100 condos? WESLEY: So yes, within the condominium project itself. The condominium unit is on the inside of the walls. And so if you're a business in a condominium, in order to put something outside your business, this allows for that. WATTS: So this is commercial only, not residential, when it says, "condominium"? WESLEY: So this would apply also to, you know, residentials -- I guess I should back up, when you say 100. 100 would be based on there being 100 units -- WATTS: Yes. WESLEY: -- it depends upon the type of signage because there are individual limitations, depending upon the type of signs, how many there can be. WATTS: I think, as I read through this, it became kind of a theme that in our effort to make it more business friendly, it now seems to open up Pandora's Box and we can have, in a commercial, and we'll get to it eventually, multiple signs. And you have this proliferation of signs where I think it's going to be as ugly as heck. WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner Watts, it's definitely a balance we're going to be discussing this evening. I got several points along that line that I'll be bringing up later. This specific language is not being proposed for a change. Maybe it does need to be looked at a little closer based on some of the other language that we talked about. So maybe we want to put this, you know, aside for the moment and possibly come back to it so I can see where you're headed with it. You know, maybe there needs to be some statement here about number. WATTS: Well, I think either the number and/or the time limits. I think both of them because with this proliferation of signs, how long are they allowed to be up? And how many? And -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- to what degree. So that was -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- that was one -- WESLEY: Right. So this particular provision really just deals with the fact that, by the start of this statement, you can only put your sign on your property. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 10 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 43 WATTS: Um-hum. WESLEY: And when you're in a condominium, there's no place to put it except inside your unit, which doesn't do it any good. So just to clarify that you can put it outside your unit. WATTS: That's how I -- WESLEY: And this provision does. WATTS: -- that's how I read this, as -- WESLEY: Later we talk about numbers and sizes and times and so forth, so. WATTS: And then in B, could you help me understand where it says, "two areas, commercial and industrial developments that have multiple properties." I'm not clear on what that means. And -- "But not on the same property as the sign". WESLEY: Yes. That's any type of group commercial center such as over here at the Bashes'. WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: You've got multiple business, but only one property. And so for them to have signs, it needs to go on that common property and not on their individual unit. WATTS: Okay. So when I get to the last sentence where it says, "But not on the same property as the sign." That to me seems confusing. And maybe it's just me not reading the entire sentence to you, but. WESLEY: So I -- so again, another example that maybe applies to this one a little bit more would be the Target Center where you have multiple property owners, because it's been subdivided. And so you can have that common Target sign out front that advertises the different businesses on their monument sign, but it's only on one of the properties. It's not on all of the properties. So we're going to let you have that sign without it being considered an off-premise sign. WATTS: Are those -- is the Target property actually owned by separate individuals? Or isn't -- WESLEY: There are three or four different properties there. I can't remember how many but there are, there's more than one. WATTS: But common areas within the parking lots? WESLEY: Right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 11 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 43 WATTS: So could they put the signs in the easement between the road and the parking lot where it is a easement or right-of-way? WESLEY: So this is not allowed on the right-of-way. This is still on property, private property. And a sign typically wouldn't go in an easement. But it does allow the one sign to advertise businesses that are on that property because it's developed as a joint center. WATTS: Okay. So I understand the pendant sign where you've got listing all the different properties and -- WESLEY: Right. Um-hum. WATTS: -- the size of the pendant. But there could be other signs out there that could be on that property somewhere? WESLEY: So it allows for, through a sign plan, to allow four of the common street frontage monument sign. That's what it says. So it is talking about just the monument sign in this paragraph. WATTS: Just monument sign? WESLEY: Right. That's what it says. For -- "To allow for common street frontage monument signs." WATTS: Um-hum. WESLEY: So it's not just any sign scattered around the property, it is the monument sign that this provides for. WATTS: So they are precluded -- all the tenants are precluded from having any kind of A-frame sign or anything, easement, right-of-way, other than the monument sign? WESLEY: No. This allows for the monument sign. The temporary signs are handled separately, as we'll talk about later when we get to them. WATTS: And I think that's where my confusion comes in because there's not necessarily conflicting, but if I go to different areas that it becomes challenging to understand each of the components. WESLEY: Um-hum. WATTS: I'll be patient for a while. GRAY: Ultimately, you're trying to get to a place where, if there's a monument, then the temporary is not permissible? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 12 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 43 WATTS: Not necessarily. My concern is, just like in the condominiums scenario, that the proliferation of signs becomes overwhelming. And so you have all of these different types of signs that are allowed, that are going to degrade the aesthetics of the property. I get -- that's my biggest concern. And it's an overriding concern throughout, that we don't have some mechanism, either time or number, that we can control the number of signs so it doesn't look like billboards, A-frames, post, you know, all those different types that we have exclusions throughout here. To me it gets very confusing and again, I hope we get to that. But that seemed to be an overriding theme both on the residential side and the commercial side. GRAY: It's almost like the, I mean, you're almost back to the original intent of the ordinance that was on paper, right? I mean, that's where you're -- WATTS: It's gone from one extreme to the other. GRAY: Right. WATTS: And now we can do -- in order to accommodate businesses, we can do, or recommending we can do anything. GRAY: Yeah. Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: I wanted to make a comment with residential condominiums, most if not all HOAs, that common area, they don't allow signs per each resident. So like for example, for sale sign, you can't put in the common areas in condominiums. So there may be several cases where an HOA will be more restrictive. WATTS: So then, maybe we have to integrate, weave in somehow, except as dictated by the HOAs. DEMPSTER: Well, the HOA rules would trump the town rules. The town is saying it's okay, but if the HOA says it's not okay, then it's not okay. WATTS: But do we want to acknowledge that in our stipulations or recommendations? WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner Watts, while what Commissioner Dempster says is true, it's only up the HOA to enforce their rules, we can't do that. And so it's kind of that ongoing relationship we have with HOAs in a variety of ways. It's not -- I don't know if there's anything to do in our ordinance that would highlight that. WATTS: Okay. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 13 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 43 COREY: Just my last -- just one comment on the industrial development with the sign plan and the monument sign. I can understand what this is saying, so the monument sign is just going to basically, maybe, have the name of the business. Whereas the additional sign would be their opportunity to market whatever they're doing. If there's a special or something, right? So they won't have the opportunity to maybe change the face of the monument sign. That's just telling you that they're -- that business is there. So I can see the value in having the two different ones. Just wanted to share that perspective. WATTS: I can certainly understand the perspective, but I don't know that I agree with it because if everybody can put out these A-frame signs, then again, you've got, without some constraint about time or number, then you have, I put it out there because I can't change the monument sign. So how do we accommodate that? Or do we just say, okay, we've accommodated what Council wanted, which is make it business friendly and wait and see what happens? COREY: But I think the monument signs are more, like, directional. A way of finding kind of sign. Whereas the temporary sign is for a temporary sale or advertisement of some sort. WATTS: As long as you can define temporary. GRAY: Yeah. Unless you have a 20 percent off sale every day -- WATTS: Yeah. GRAY: -- all day. WATTS: Yeah. GRAY: I mean, you're back to the original -- WATTS: Exactly. GRAY: -- the decluttering exercise -- and we've swung the pendulum all the way to, want to be all things to all businesses. The balance is, in my opinion, it's closer to where you are. But I also understand Commissioner Corey's position, which is more aligned with the, you know, how we got back here. WATTS: Understanding is one thing and accommodating is something else. So while I understand Commissioner Corey as well, I understand the words, I understand the wording, I'm concerned about the blight that unintentionally is created by the unregulated TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 14 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 43 signs that can be placed virtually anywhere because they're temporary. With that, I'll make it easy again -- GRAY: Paula. WESLEY: So Commissioners Watts, thank you. That's going to be the key thing that we're going to have to noodle through this evening and see, you know, pick some numbers kind of based on where the commission came -- the Council came from, what I was hearing from the Commission last time, to give us a place to start. They probably need to be adjusted up and down, whatever you see as we discuss them as we get on into some of the details. So we will be getting there soon. So going on in Section 6.07, there's a couple of other things that we had in here. We talked about these last time, because of the confusion and conflict between our local ordinance and the state statute when it comes to political signs. Signs put up during election season. We thought it might be helpful to add this number 3 in 6.07 B 2 i, that within -- exempt the prohibition to allow signs per state statutes during elections, but not in the sign-free zone. This really doesn't change any, we hope it just helps clarify that if we need it at some point in the future. And then going down amending the provision that currently says, "Signs are prohibited in the Shae Road right-of-way. That's still true but, except as specifically provided in this chapter. So we'll see when we get down into A-frames and yard signs, that there are provisions in commercial areas to allow, but only in those commercial areas. GRAY: John, I know that this isn't going to go through this way but I -- if I read that correctly, the addition of 3 and 6.07, I'd prefer that those remain, unless there's a statute that says they can't, I'd prefer to recommend that those remain clutter free. I think that's one of the innate benefits of our landscape are those sign-free zones, even during political season. WESLEY: Right. And so -- let me get back here and find that. Okay. So I can put it back in context. So prohibited locations, signs are prohibited in the following locations. They're prohibited in town rights-of-way. And then with that we're checking over the right-of-way, except as allowed by state statutes and the town's sign-free zone. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 15 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 43 So the town's sign-free zone is still there. And you still can't put them in the town's sign- free zone. But you could put them other places in the right-of-way, which would otherwise be excluded. GRAY: Okay. So that's not a -- that's not a carve out that allows it during political season? WESLEY: So no, in the political season, and that's the only time the sign-free zone -- GRAY: Exists. WESLEY: -- really applies. GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: And so during the political season, you still can't put them in the sign-free zone, whatever that is. But otherwise, you can't put them in the right-of-way. COREY: Just a question of clarification. I'm sorry if this is a silly question. Where is the town's sign-free zone? WESLEY: We're going to see that map a little bit later. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: If you'd like, we can go there now, if you really want to. But it's going to be more important, I think, later. I think it's going to be more important later, but we can look at it now, if you really want to, but -- WATTS: I may have another silly question, but does zoning have enough enforcement personnel with as creative as this sign ordinance could be? WESLEY: We are going to discuss that. WATTS: Oh, it's -- WESLEY: You all get deputized to -- WATTS: Great. WESLEY: So Chairman, Commissioners, particularly get down and talk about, I think, the yard signs and what used to be called garage sale signs, the off-premise residential directional signs, that's where it's really going to come up, and how we treat those and how it interplays with these others, allowances for right-of-way and times. That's where I'm really going to discuss that in detail, which is basically at the end. But it's important to keep in mind as we go through all these. So also, just a couple of housekeeping things. For clarification, 6.07, for consistency TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 16 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 43 with other provisions, adding in this chapter and then in 12, taking off the "except as specifically permitted," because it's not specifically permitted anyplace for, you can put a sign on somebody else's property. So then we get into 6.08. And that's where all the real meat is of the specific regulations. And 6.08 A addresses individual sign types. Again, the goal from the town council was to try to better meet some of the businesses' sign needs. So the first one is the A-frames and T-frames. The Council direction was to allow them in the right-of-way in commercial areas including Shae. Allow it to be displayed some distance from the actual property being advertised and allow for more than one per business. So here's the regulation as currently proposed. So when we allow for two signs per business is what is being proposed at one per public entry, but up to a maximum of two. Maximum sign area for one sign is still six square feet. And then an aggregate sign area of nine. So you can have one at six, you can have another one at three. You can have one at four and one at five, type of thing. But no sign bigger than six and an aggregate, if you do have two, nine square feet. Last time we -- GRAY: Well, before you leave that -- WESLEY: -- okay. GRAY: -- I was trying to let it go. Before you have that, if -- do we need to introduce a separation, minimum separation distance so that you can't stack two signs right on top of each other to get to your nine? WESLEY: We could. GRAY: I mean, that's the intent, right? You got two entrances, you're coming from north and south and you can hit it from both sides. WESLEY: Yes. That would be the general idea. You have the two instances. You have one front and one back in the plateau area, for example -- GRAY: That's not how that will be utilized. WESLEY: -- but yet, there's nothing here that wouldn't keep you from putting them both, one on each side of the door or wherever, so they're basically on top of each other. So any suggestions on what a minimum separation distance should be? GRAY: I mean, if -- to follow the spirit of that, then maybe it's either introduce language TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 17 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 43 that says, I don't know, in support of way finding, but then exclude direct adjacency. Or just simply say that the signs should not be visible from one another. Or just say one sign per business and be done with it. COREY: Maybe one sign per side? GRAY: Per elevation. COREY: Yeah, or per -- however you word that, yeah. WESLEY: So let's go ahead and jump into a challenge. GRAY: We like challenges. WESLEY: So as we're going to talk about in a moment, the Counsel wanted us to consider is that you could locate a sign some distance from your property. And we talked about that in some detail last time. And I showed you several maps of different scenarios around town and what some of those distances might need to be. And so we'll be talking about that a little bit more specifically in a moment. And so with that, the sign you're putting up may not actually be in front of your business. It might be in front of a business, you know, some distance away down at the corner. So that's one challenge. And then also, since we can't read the sign to regulate it, if there're two signs right in front of your business that are ten feet apart, and our regulation says you have to have them 20 feet apart, one sign is really yours and one sign is really somebody else's, how do we then enforce that because we are in -- the sign may actually say, I like whales. And doesn't really identify a business that we go to and say, hey, your sign needs to move. So if we talk about separations here, if you're going to have two signs, got to be at least so far apart, it may be challenging to actually enforce such a provision. GRAY: So take that in reverse. I have the same comment that I did last time on this. I think we're trying to be too much to too many scenarios. And a sign -- and that was all based on the Technology Drive and that whole area, right? WESLEY: That was part of it, yes. GRAY: My thought there is the same. If you're standing up business and it's in the technology district back behind the Target plaza, then you chose to stand up business in that location because it wasn't a high-prominence, you know, high-traffic, foot-traffic location. Why should we extend the sign ordinance to provision way finding to your TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 18 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 43 place of business? I don't' think that we should. And so I think then, once you tie a bow on that, then I think you're back to, if there's a need to have multiple signs, and it needs to be per elevation, or at least not in direct adjacency. Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: I just thought of -- if, like, your example with, I like whales, how would code enforcement be able to do their job if they didn't know who belongs to those signs? So do all our signs need a label of the name of the business or their contact person? WESLEY: So I -- DEMPSTER: So they can enforce -- do their job if needed? WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner Dempster, so that is a possibility, if I understood what you're saying. I mean, we can't make the sign itself say anything, but we could, and we've done this before, require a permit for every temporary sign. And they have to put that permit on the sign. And we could use that to potentially help with enforcement. I wasn't here before when he did that sign-permit process. I'm told it was, however, a very big challenge and was eventually done away with because the challenges outweighed the benefits at the time. It may be different today, but that may be where we would need to go, if we continue down some of these routes in terms of numbers and locations. WATTS: I'm in agreement with Commissioner Dempster, but as far as the regulation, if we don't have a mechanism to control this, we can put the distances, we can put whatever we want as far as the codes go, but much like EPCORE, the technology's out there. The technology to scan and have an RF frequency that comes off of your meter or off of your sign or your sticker, as the code enforcement drives by and they have a legend that they're looking at on their computer, and they see that somebody is out of date, maybe we give them 90 days, just arbitrarily, 90 days on the sign, and it's out of compliance, they stop and they advise. They know who pulled the permit. And I know that that, or is that draconian, when you say all of a sudden, and I think, while I wasn't part of the previous sign requirements for permits, I can see how it can be problematic if we don't have a mechanism that easy, not only to do online, much like our building permits are now, but also, for code enforcement TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 19 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 43 and for people to understand it. So I think we're getting the cart in front of the horse, to some degree, if we don't have that mechanism. WESLEY: Okay. That's certainly something we can spend more time before we come back again, as fleshing out what a permit procedure might be like. So before we, again, we had several maps of, you know, possible distances that might happen from a business to allow something out in a right-of-way, some distance from the business. And we had the one for commercial and one for industrial. In your packet, this is the solution that I came up with. But as I thought about some more today, putting this presentation together, I came up with a different solution. So one of the concerns is, you see here, if you can go 1,200 feet from a lot line to a street, it doesn't mean necessarily down the street, even though I tried to do that by using the term, Front Street, it could actually allow you to get quite some distance away to other streets that may -- we're not interested in. So I'm proposing something slightly different now. But again, looking for your feedback for additional modifications. So the proposal now for that section is that all commercial and industrial zoned areas you can have -- place that A-frame sign in the right-of-way adjoining your property. So that's right there in front, wherever that may be. If you're in a commercial zone area, you also may place it up to 90 feet from the property corner at the right-of-way line, measured along the right-of-way without crossing a street. So that keeps you going down that same street and not being able to jump over property, like is shown here. And then a similar thing, then, with the industrial, that with the 12, 25, which then gets you from -- so that gets you, again, from this last property here down to here, along the right-of-way without crossing a street, it wouldn't allow you to -- any of those types of things. GRAY: It's a T intersection cross a street? WESLEY: So in this case, if this were a street, you couldn't go any further than right there. But in this case, it's an alley. So you could still go all the way down to here. But yes, if there were a T intersection, you couldn't cross the street to go on down to that next corner. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 20 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 43 GRAY: And if you were to go north -- WESLEY: So -- GRAY: -- your route -- WESLEY: -- you still, this corner property could still come all the way up here. But that's the only one. GRAY: Now, the other challenge with being this liberal with this kind of policy is you're to end up with signs in front of other businesses that are in no way related to that business. I just don't like this at all. And I think that if you rent space in one of those industrial suites, that's -- you rented it there for a reason. I don't think we should do this. I figured you'd have something to say. WATTS: I just see the same exact thing that you're talking about. If you go down Technology today, there's A-frames, all kinds of signs up and down that road. And I'm probably making it more exaggerated than I need to be, but there's a lot of different types of signs there in addition to the monument signs. And I think, even with the footages, the distances you've got lined out here, personally, I would gravitate towards the corner. That's where I've got the most traffic, most exposure. And if I could -- if I was a business, I'm going to that corner. I'm going to figure it out, how I can get there. So I think you're going to have this concentration of signs that are not going to be consistent. They're not going to be a monument sign. And they're going to create a mess. GRAY: And by the way, you're not to pick it up at night. WESLEY: Oh, didn't even think about that. So yeah, they're going to be out there forever. Without a time and distance and some mechanism -- so we're going back to the mechanisms. All of this could be doable, but the mechanism isn't in place for enforcement. COREY: But we do have that they have to be picked up at the end of the day, right? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). [CROSS TALK] WESLEY: So the code does require that, if you put it in the right of way, it has to be taken down. It could be put at official sunrise, taken down at official sunset. But if it's on your property, no, that's it. WATTS: And what's the fine for not picking it up? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 21 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 43 WESLEY: Confiscation of the sign or, I think it starts at a $50 fine. It's been a while since I've looked at fine instruction, but there is a fine structure that goes with it. It escalates, based on -- WATTS: So we're going to be able to afford four or five more zone enforcement people pretty readily. WESLEY: The exception to that was in the Town Center area, where you could leave them out in the right-of-way, in the pedestrian area. GRAY: I would just lobby hard to have that section almost struck. WESLEY: Okay. Is there -- anybody want to argue the other way? Looking for some consensus here as I work on a modification. I don't' want to go this way and come back and have a push to go back another way. But what I'm hearing is mostly is concern, you know, we've gone to too much signage, particularly without any mechanism to help with the enforcement. WATTS: I definitely agree with that. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: You now, the concentration just become overwhelming and it's just going to look worse. So unfortunately, I agree with chairman that, you picked Technology Drive. You knew what the monument signs were there. The consequences of your action are not my responsibility, necessarily. So I need to contain it to make sure that the town is protected as opposed to the individual businesses. WESLEY: Okay. I just, by the way, from all the different examples we looked at, I felt like this one was probably the most compelling as far as if we're going to come up with a distance for the commercial. Again, you may not like it, maybe it's too much, from all them, this seemed the most compelling. So that's why I use the 130 feet in that one. Although, I think with this one, with this different way of doing the measurement, I reduce it to 90. Moving on -- WATTS: Before we move on, John, when we go back up to, I believe it was item 1 above where it says, "in single family and multi-family districts," and that's again, where I think that the concentration, and maybe you're going to get to this too, but the concentration is, if I've got multi-family and I've got 20 units and I can put two signs per some number, I'm going to have 40 signs out there. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 22 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 43 So I'm going to voice that same concern about density and how we're going to contain that. So same thing. WESLEY: And so A-frames are only allowed in the single and multi-residents when used as the directional sign for the garage sale or the open house. Otherwise, we're not permitted. WATTS: How does that apply to multi-family? WESLEY: Multi-family zoning can still have some type of -- multi-family zoning can, again, include condominium projects where people have individual ownerships. And there can be -- and they also include uses, such as churches that might be in them. Might have events that go on that would use what we call weekend directional signs. WATTS: So do some condominiums actually sell their piece -- the land? Or is it generally held in -- as common? WESLEY: The land is common. WATTS: It's always common? WESLEY: Yeah. Yes, part of the definition of a condo. WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: So the last piece we've already pretty well discussed it in terms of the A- frames and when they're placed in the right-of-way, can be located on a sidewalk -- that was one of the concerns with -- during your draft. So change that to be, just in the Town Center area, that it could be on a sidewalk. Four-foot clear passage. And again, the last provision, shall be removed between sunset and sunrise versus when a business is closed. And can't modify or damage the landscaping. Moving on to banner signs. You know, that's one we had a lot of discussion about last time. So proposed several changes to what we looked at before. Again, I think get a little closer to what the Commission was looking for before we had some discussion about 90 days and waivers for nonresidential uses and residential districts and so forth. It was kind of confusing. And what I wrote in the staff report was different than what I attached, if you -- ordinance, if you compared this to -- and I realized I grabbed the wrong ordinance that I attached as far as this provisions. So this is what was actually in the report and what was intended. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 23 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 43 So you can have a banner sign through a permit for a maximum of 120 days per calendar year but no more than 30 days at a time. And then you can also then apply for the administrative, temporary use permit that you can apply for today. So if you are, that special use that -- in those common examples, the church in the residential zones has lots of different seasonal activities. If this hasn't cut it for you, you could apply for that temporary permit. The other main discussion was for the new business. I went ahead with a calendar year versus, we talked about everything from 180 days to 70 to the full year and went ahead with the full year. And then we have discussion about that becoming tattered, torn, or the need to change the message because, maybe they start off with just, grand opening, while six months later they don't still need to be saying grand opening. And so, must remain in good repair and does allow them to change it up to four times a year. It may start off with a sign that just say their business name and stays in good repair and there's no need to change it. Then, if that's the case, we wouldn't have to -- this allows them if they need to. Which is a little bit tenuous, because now we're reading the message to some degree. But do you think it's okay? COREY: Yeah, just one thing that I noticed, and you may have corrected it with what you just said, but in the -- where you have all of the changes listed, it says here that "it is a maximum of 90 days per calendar year, four times a calendar year". WESLEY: Right. Yeah, that's the one that I corrected to this. COREY: Okay. Okay. WESLEY: Yeah. I corrected it some place and that's -- I wrote the staff report with the correction. But I guess I never got it corrected in the actual copy of the ordinance that's attached to the -- COREY: Because the way that reads -- WESLEY: -- report. COREY: -- is, like, all year, pretty much. Okay. WATTS: Clearly. And so I'm not a fan of additional days may be approved through a temporary use permit. I think particularly when it's an administrative function it should be black and white. If you can't manage your own schedule for the year, and I don't TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 24 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 43 know one organization that doesn't have a schedule, and utilize 120 days, having gone from 30 days, something's wrong. And you may have an extreme exception, but that's pretty ambiguous and in being an administrative issue, I'd be dead set against that. WESLEY: To your point, Commissioner, that's -- ten times a year, you have that for 12 days at a time. That's for every month for ten days a month. That's quite a bit of usage right there off the top. Anybody object to taking -- striking that out? COREY: Just. I have a general question. WESLEY: Yes. COREY: So what's to say that if we get this pretty good and they approve it, that if we find out that some of these are bigger issues than we discovered then we can revisit this again in the future? WESLEY: Oh, yes. COREY: All right. Okay. WESLEY: Be recycling the same text amendments over and over again. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: Okay. Post and board signs, otherwise known as for sale signs, couple of issues here. Go to this one first, although it's second in the ordinance itself. This is one that came up, Commissioner Dempster brought it up last time. The current code does not allow most post and board signs or for sale signs to be in the right-of-way. Traditionally, they are. You're putting that sign out so people driving down the street can see it. And so the proposal was that we amend the code to go back to allow them within the public right-of-way. So that's a simple piece there. As I was working on that piece, I was thinking about the number. And I said again, this ideas of condominium units. And the thing that we see mostly with regard to condominiums is the duplex that got built and now the owner wants to come back and divide it into condominiums. And so you got two units owned separately with a common area out in front. And so if both units want to be sold at the same time, and we limit you to one post and board sign to your property, one of the two gets to put that for sale sign out there and the other one doesn't. And so that's what kind of drove thinking about, well, how can we address that type of TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 25 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 43 situation for a post and board sign. And so I came up with some numbers, certainly subject to your review and consideration and adjustment as you see fit. But if you have one to five dwelling units on a property, that you can go ahead and have one post and board sign per unit. Whatever that sign is used for. If you got six or more, okay, that's starting to get big enough for you, and again, you probably do have that property under owner's group, like Commissioner Dempster was talking about, it's probably going to take more interest and active control of what's happening in that common area. And a little bit more on how that might happen. And so reduced at that point to then just two signs for the property per street front. And then, when you get back into the nonresidential use, it's what we have today in terms of one sign per property per street front. DEMPSTER: John, I don't know that that solves the problem for a duplex versus a condo because we have that situation right now going on -- there's a duplex on West B, both sides A and B are for sale. And I believe the other one is on Chama. So both sides are for sale. In the realty world we -- I know the town zoning might recognize the duplex as a condominium. But we look at it as kind of two separate -- if it is, you know, if they've been condominiumized and are two separate entities, two separate units, two different people own them. And then typically, they do maintain their own front yard. It's not like an HOA association has -- rarely are there a lot of CC and R's as well. Versus a condominium complex where you know you do not maintain the exterior. You do not have a yard. You, you know, you don't have anything to worry about on the exterior. Nor is there an expectation that you have, versus that duplex where you are responsible for the maintenance and everything. So I understand what you're trying to resolve but -- WESLEY: So should it -- the first category just be two, no more than two units? DEMPSTER: Can you -- WESLEY: Versus -- DEMPSTER: -- separate out duplex from condominiums? Because I think that would resolve it. WESLEY: It's still a condominium. I mean -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 26 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 43 DEMPSTER: There -- condominiumized -- WESLEY: if you -- DEMPSTER: -- but -- WESLEY: -- if you are just a duplex, one owner owns all the building, all the lot. That's different than the condominium where you do have the two separate unit owners. DEMPSTER: Can we spell it out? A duplex where there are two separate owners? WESLEY: But, yeah that's a condominium -- DEMPSTER: It isn't that -- well, there would be two separate plats though. There might -- there may be, there may not be common area. WESLEY: Everything outside of the unit is a common area, whether it's limited or -- limited common or straight common, it's all common. And the condominium association, per the declaration, has responsibility for that. KOVACEVIC: But a duplex wouldn't necessarily be a condominium -- WESLEY: No. Right. Not necessarily. WATTS: I think it's the wording that can change as many -- condominium versus duplex. Initially, when you have a duplex, you have a common ownership on the land. When you divide it, what do you call it at that point? Are they single family, attached? Are they -- they didn't no longer have the designation to duplex, what do they call it? WESLEY: Condominium. DEMPSTER: Condos -- WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: Condominium. WATTS: But earlier we talked about that the land is common. WESLEY: Right. WATTS: So is it still common or is it divided now? WESLEY: It's common. In a condominium. WATTS: So then you've got to stick with it's a duplex and it can only have one sign -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- upon the property, period. WESLEY: Correct. But if it's condominium, they condominiumized it, so you have now, units that are owned separately. You can still have one per unit. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 27 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 43 WATTS: Is that assuming the same ownership and is it rental -- WESLEY: It's typically, they're different. WATTS: They're different? WESLEY: Typically. If somebody might buy both parts of it and rent one and live in one. But -- WATTS: I think the word is confusing. And I think Commissioner Dempster's point, if we can somehow clean it up to make it clearer. Either that or I've got to take a real estate class. One of the two. Maybe I should. KOVACEVIC: We're struck here anyways, so you might as well do something. I mean, duplex could be a condominium. It could be fee simple with each side owning their half of the lot and -- WESLEY: So if they owned -- if actually owned the property, that would be attached, single residence or a -- KOVACEVIC: Right. WESLEY: -- town home type situation where they own the land, then we're still at one sign per property because the properties are separate, even though the buildings join. And so that works with this. Or if it's been -- it's a condominium where they just own the inside of their unit, but the ground is owned in common, then each unit owner may need to be able to put a for sale sign out in front, because they are individually selling their unit. KOVACEVIC: Right. WESLEY: So this covers that ability. If we don't have this, then it's one per lot. And those unit owners got to fight it out to see who puts their sign out there. KOVACEVIC: That doesn't happen very often, I wouldn't think. WESLEY: Probably not. KOVACEVIC: Because the minute they sold -- the minute the own, I mean, to build a duplex, they're renting it out, they're doing something with the other unit, whatever. But the minute they go to sell, they have to either subdivide it or condominiumize it. Otherwise, what are they selling? WESLEY: They're selling the property as a whole, the building and the property as a whole, or they have somehow subdivided it, correct, to be able to sell pieces. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 28 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 43 KOVACEVIC: They just don't -- I don't see a situation where the two units are for sale from different owners without it either being a condominium or each unit being fee simple. WESLEY: Right. Right. KOVACEVIC: So we should be good, right? WESLEY: Now, when you have multiple owners in one building, you have right to their individual piece of that building can sell it independently. And we're trying to provide for them to be able to provide that signage for them to independently sell their unit and got more than one unit owners wanted to do that at the same time. For them each to be able to put their sign out. If we just leave it at one per property, then the individual unit owners, whoever gets their sign out there first, that's it, until that sign is taken down. GRAY: That's the piece that I can't -- how does 2 A and 2 B not set us up for some sort of disenfranchisement? If I'm the number two owner to want to sell under 2 A, how can the town tell me I have to wait to put my post and board sign out -- WESLEY: That's what I'm trying to do. Trying to cover that so you don't have to wait. Which way, we're giving you the allowance so that you can have more than one if you're a condominium project and you -- GRAY: Oh, one per -- okay. I read that wrong. WESLEY: -- one per property or per condominium unit. GRAY: Okay. So then it's only applicable under 2 B, because the way that reads -- and then I turn around and apply -- that's 2A. So 2 B says six or more dwelling units on a property. Two signs per property. So should that also say, or condominium unit? WESLEY: So at this point, can we go back again to what Commissioner Dempster has said, you're more likely to have some type of overall management company, organized owner's association, that's likely to not allow you to do that. It's also less likely you're going to have that many selling at one time. Again, these numbers are arbitrary. Maybe the first one should be one or two. And that's as far as it should go. Or maybe there should be three categories here of somehow breaking it out. But at some point, you do get large enough and you're going to have that ownership association that's probably not going to let you do it. And we wouldn't want that many signs anyway, cluttering up the place, should it happen. Because -- throw this out again, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 29 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 43 while the traditional use a post and board sign is for sale or for rent, once we give you the allowance, you can put that sign on your property and it can say anything you want it to say and it can be there for a long time. So again, we don't want to get too crazy about this but trying to cover what I see as at least enough of a potential to consider. Because as I mentioned, we see a lot of these, we have a lot of these duplexes in particular in town that are condominiumized. And it just seems possible that could have both units trying to be sold at one time. Without something like this, they couldn't each put out a sign. WATTS: Do we have a definition somewhere of a condominium, duplex, single family, or is there -- is that codified somewhere? WESLEY: How much it specifically in our ordinance, I'd have to go back and see, but in the industry, they're understood terms. WATTS: Well, I understand that they're understood and -- I'm trying to follow what you're saying. But I think the wording is what has confused me because I don't have a definition of each of those in front me. And I pity the zoning guy that's got to, you know, understand all of this if we don't elaborate on what it is and maybe reduce it to one or two for duplex. And then more from that point, with the stipulation and a clarification of what a duplex is, what a condominium is, so it's clear, rather than -- I've read this numerous times and I'm still befuddled by it. WESLEY: I'll give you a picture. WATTS: Thanks. GRAY: I just have one other thought, and I'm not convicted by it either way, on the previous slide it changed the distance from the curb to be two feet. I'm just wondering, should that be the height of the sign, versus two feet, in the event it lays over out into the street? Susan's probably going to disagree with me, but I'd just thought I'd throw that out there. I think it's -- the reality is, a post and board sign is what? The arm on it is 18 to 24 inches. So two feet means it's hanging at the curb by just -- if it goes over, it's in the street. WESLEY: So the -- yeah, the face of the sign or the edge of the sign has to be two feet back. So then your post is another two to three feet back from there. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 30 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 43 And so the sign -- or some place around four to five feet tall, six feet, I think from the X. GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: So you're pretty close to -- GRAY: As long as it's not from the post, then I guess. WESLEY: So back on this one, we heard a lot of enthusiasm. So some pictures, some description, I'm hearing more, I think, of reduce it down to maybe just one or two, just to cover the duplex-type situation. DEMPSTER: Can you repeat that. WESLEY: So -- DEMPSTER: For -- what would you do -- WESLEY: -- so it changed 1 A to one or two dwelling units on a property. And then, have to think about it or see if you give me further direction, then the other one becomes three or more. Which is just two per property per street front, or it could be one. DEMPSTER: I just, I mean, there is not -- I don't believe there's an expectation to have a sign in an apartment complex or a condominium complex. I understand what the town is trying to do, to give the opportunity but this is just confusing. I don't know. WESLEY: So you know, I can also think of quite a number of up to four-unit condos in town. Which again, my guess is the association isn't really more than the four-unit owners, although some of them still have some absentee unit owner -- or common area owner that's not even one of the unit owners. Again, those situations, seems like it might be beneficial to allow the opportunity for more than one post and board sign. Or maybe it's one and two, then three and four, to allow two. And then from there it's back to just one type deal. Maybe that's what I'll work on. DEMPSTER: Some of the subdivisions in town do a great job with having permanent, they're metal tubes. They're very nicely done. The Enclave is a great example. And there's a little complex on Chama. There's several that do that, to allow for materials for -- when properties are for sale because they don't allow signs on the -- in the common areas. WESLEY: So this brings us to yard signs. So this is another place where I've got a similar thing. And based on our discussion we've already had regarding the post and board signs, can adjust this. Because when you are -- well, we can start again where we TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 31 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 43 are in today's code. Right now we allow one yard sign per property. The proposal that came from Council is to up that to two. And in considering that and thinking about the different types of districts and what can go on, again, proposed some other modifications. So if, again, I'm in a resident in a duplex and the sign allowance is two signs per property, if my neighbor in the other half of the duplex puts out two signs for whatever reason, I can't put any on my side of the duplex. Similar thing for a condominium. And so it's, again, to be fair to residents in those situations, seem like it'd be beneficial to make some allowance. Based on our discussion, we probably could -- should come down from the one to five to one to two or three, something in that range, rather than going to five. DEMPSTER: Yard signs being temporary? WESLEY: Yes. DEMPSTER: And a open house sign or a garage sale sign would be examples? WESLEY: That's some of the more typical examples. When we get into campaign season, the onsite signs are regulated through this provision. The other political sign thing that causes most controversy out in the right-of-way is different. DEMPSTER: Right. WESLEY: But on this, this would control that type of thing. Or the other thing they may, probably the most often used for is, like, I got my roof repaired by or, you know, whatever type of sign that you might put in your yard. But it's really the campaign type signs that probably addresses most often. WATTS: If you were a homeowner, I assume you're a homeowner, and you have the urge to put a sign up, how many signs could you put up, based upon the definitions of yard signs, A-frame signs, all the variety of signs that we've got. How many could you put on your property? WESLEY: Today? WATTS: Um-hum. WESLEY: You could put one yard sign, one post and board per street front, and I could only do an A-frame if I'm having some type of weekend event. WATTS: So I have to pick one of those three? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 32 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 43 WESLEY: You could do all three at the same time. WATTS: So I can put three signs out there? WESLEY: For a period of time, yes. WATTS: But we don't describe the period of time. WESLEY: Only for the A-frames with regard to the weekend activity. Because that's going to leave you Friday, Saturday, Sunday or a holiday between sunrise and sunset. WATTS: Would it be prudent somewhere in the ordinances to put, you get to choose one? You can only have one type of sign at a time? WESLEY: We could certainly look at doing that. Again, the challenge may be I've got my house for sale and while I've got it for sale, I'm having a garage sale so I can get rid of a bunch of junk. Or while I've got my home for sale, I've had my roof repaired and the roofer wanted to put a roofer sign in my yard. WATTS: Well, the for sale sign on the residence is one thing. A temporary use permit on the garage sale and garage sign is another. And you could get that temporary permit because we've talked about it being an administrative function. And the roofer is out of luck. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I agree. DEMPSTER: Just as an example, the HOA I lived in, that roofer sign can only be in the yard as long as the work is being done on the house. Once it's completed, it goes away. So we may have -- I don't know if the NPOA has any regulations, but with all the HOAs, I think it's most likely in their CC and R's. You're in the NPOA, correct? WATTS: Yeah, that's another -- anyway, so then, shouldn't we make the roofer get a permit? He's getting free advertising, putting it in somebody's back yard. And all the neighbors are seeing it. So he -- that's why he puts it there, so they know who to call. DEMPSTER: Um-hum, yup. WATTS: Why shouldn't he pay for it? And I know it's not business friendly to charge a roofer for putting a sign up, but I'm trying to mitigate the number of signs that are going to be a particular property. DEMPSTER: But we have a timeframe on temporary signs, correct? WESLEY: Only on, for -- again, in the current discussion with regard to residential, the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 33 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 43 A-frame signs used for the weekend directional, that's on here, it has a timeframe on it. DEMPSTER: So do we put a timeframe then on temporary? WATTS: I think we ought to have timeframes on all types of signs. There shouldn't be this unlimited number of -- well, the variety of signs that you can put up and the duration. But we don't have the mechanism to control it yet. So I think what we're going to end up with, virtually all of these sections are going to be -- how we going to implement time and number? DEMPSTER: Sounds like a tough job to maintain. We're making it very complicated. WATTS: Well, but on the other hand you see what is going on now. And it's only going to get worse if we don't do something to at least control it. Be fair, be supportive of businesses. But be fair and reasonable in the approach and then be able to manage that expectation. And I think that's the challenge. So we can change the wording here and maybe I can even understand some of it at that point, but you know, we got to have the mechanism. So hopefully, we get to that point. WESLEY: So going on just a little bit with yard signs. So they're allowed only on private property with these exceptions, residential areas subject to Section D that we'll talk about in a minute. And then in the right-of-way adjacent to commercial and industrial, except on Shae. So it's again, not allowing them as I reworded here, not on Shae at all. It's only the A-frames that can go in the right-of-way on Shae in the commercial areas. Electronic message centers, we had some good discussion about last time and it's still on the table to eliminate the section. And if you want to go that way. But if we make changes after listening to the discussion, here's what I'm proposing, is that the only change would be that signs are turned off between 10:00 and 6:00. However, you need to understand, any changes we make in the code will not be applied to any existing signs, only to new signs. GRAY: Is there a mechanism to make that universal? WESLEY: To make it to apply to existing signs? They're grandfathered in, basically, under the rules at the time they were permitted. WATTS: But don't they have -- don't the people that have the signs have to get an annual renewal on their permits? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 34 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 43 WESLEY: No. WATTS: It's in perpetuity? WESLEY: Yes. WATTS: Maybe that's what we ought to change. So then, when they are renewed, that they have to become compliant with current requirements. WESLEY: Just for this type of signage? Again, it'd only apply to any new ones that get built. Wouldn't apply to anything existing. WATTS: I think all signs ought to have the renewal, I think that it's -- I think that most cities have, or maybe I'm mistaken, they have an initial sign permit but I know that some I've been involved with have had a renewal process. Whether it was one year, five years, but some timeframe where they had to update their signs by way of permitting. WESLEY: I haven't seen that personally, but I can look for some examples. GRAY: I mean, notwithstanding the existing, or what would be nonconforming, what's the thought about just prohibiting electronic messaging signs? WESLEY: Again, that's already an option. There was some good discussion about that last time. Maybe we can go that route. GRAY: I mean, I'd be in favor of that, frankly. WATTS: I'd be in favor of it, but I think you're opening a can of worms that somebody's going to want one and say that Joe's got one down the street and over here, he's got one, and why can't I have one? WESLEY: Because Peter said he couldn't. GRAY: Because I don't like him. WATTS: Okay. That works. GRAY: Toastmaster have to remember that. WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: So before you, I mean, on that last one, if elimination isn't on the table, then I agree with the on-off. WESLEY: I think that's easier for us to enforce versus what's in there today. GRAY: And we also, I think, we also, somewhere else we've got the lumens or the lux -- WESLEY: Yeah, that's all in, I just didn't put it back in here. It's in the code itself. None of the rest changed. This one change in here. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 35 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 43 It's another thing that had been presented before was to change time from 8 seconds to 4 seconds. But I didn't hear support for that, so I didn't include that as a change at this point. So we do have in the current code, and we talked about this a little bit last time, a provision about aggregate temporary sign area. But at least the way it's drafted in the code, it's virtually impossible to enforce. It would maybe become possible again if we did come up with some of the other mechanisms, permitting all types of temporary signs. So we could really know whose sign was there and who got it first and, you know, allow them to be spread out. But certainly the one we have doesn't work and so we proposed to just eliminate that. And then restructuring this particular section to cover a little better the provisions for signs on undeveloped property. And then this last one is coming back to what we'll call the residential directional signs. And the proposed changes here, to increase the number allowed from three to five. The way it was discussed at Town Council was to, in that second provision, eliminate the provision on the hours, as well as the Friday, Saturday, Sunday. So this would then allow these residential directional signs to be out on all rights-of-way, except Shae, any day of the week, any time of the day. Part of the challenge with that, that comes is, if we do that, we're again, in absence of any other enforcement mechanisms, virtually eliminated our ability to enforce the yard signs and A-frame signs in the right-of-way. At least this way, we preserve the ability to eliminate them if they are out too late or put up too early. Because once we say it's okay to put a yard sign in the street right-of-way for this purpose, any yard sign can go in that location for any purpose. Because we can't read the message. And so this, while may be okay with garage sale this way, if it says, I pick up junk, we couldn't remove that without something in the code. That's one of the reasons I left the timeframe in here. At least in the morning or night you could send code officers by and pull up any sign that was left. We'll get to your map now, Commissioner Corey. This is the map of the sign-free zones. Currently, during election season, all this gets extra confusing and muddy because even though this says it's a sign-free zone for political signs during political season, if you can TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 36 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 43 put a sign in that location for a garage sale, we can't judge the content, so we're back to potentially allowing political signs during political seasons in those locations if the garage sale sign is allowed in those locations. So that -- we get with that this last political season, they could have gone up on the weekends in these sign-free zones. But they had to come down at the end of the weekend. And maybe that happened some. But they couldn't just be put out there. But if we get rid of the provision here that only allows them on the weekend, allows them every day of the week, then those sign-free zones, you'd be able to put up your campaign sign during campaign season. Per state statue, we couldn't enforce it. WATTS: Question for you. Actually, it's for Commissioner Dempster. How many signs, directional signs do we use, because, first of all, I don't think five is enough for some areas of town. If you're going into Sunridge Canyon or Adaro Canyon, back parts, but how difficult would it be to pull a permit for directions, issue a QR code, put it on the sign itself because somebody already knows where they're going. And then get downloaded directions? I mean, that's what we do for every other application. Why can't we do something like that there and reduce the number of signs? Reduce that proliferation. And have the town do the work in conjunction with zoning? So my question is how many do we -- how many do we have? And then I'm going to go back to John with another question about numbers. DEMPSTER: Sure. Well, it is very difficult, as you say, some of the houses might last, you know, listing, in North Heights it was pretty much impossible to do it with five. And you know, personally, I plan open houses ahead of time so it wouldn't be difficult to get a permit to have signs. But not every, I mean, so to use a QR code, someone would have to be up, next to the sign. To me, that's not feasible. You know, so you're driving along, you see an open house sign. You stop and you have to use a QR code. Is that what you're -- WATTS: No, I'm not clear on that -- DEMPSTER: Oh, okay. WATTS: -- so they already know where they want to go. They saw the listing -- DEMPSTER: Sometimes. WATTS: So you're -- it's random people -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 37 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 43 DEMPSTER: Sometimes people -- WESLEY: -- just driving around? DEMPSTER: -- absolutely, I ask everyone, sometimes they're just, they're here for their kid's soccer game or they're coming home from church and they're following signs. WATTS: So what percentage of the people that are looking at houses know where they're going? Is it 50/50? Is it 75/25? Would you guess? DEMPSTER: It's a hard one to guess -- WATTS: Okay. DEMPSTER: Maybe 50/50. WATTS: If you had the opportunity, at least we'd reduce 50 percent of the signs if you had it on some sort of listing-- DEMPSTER: You'd still need the signs for that 50 percent that are following signs -- WATTS: I don't disagree with that. DEMPSTER: -- where to drive. WATTS: I don't disagree that we need something, somewhere. But I don't think five is enough. As anti-sign as I appear to be. DEMPSTER: I would be cautious, even though I'd like more, there are companies that hire groups to put out ugly, you know, quantities of ugly, neon, crazy signs. WATTS: Um-hum. DEMPSTER: So you get up past, you know, too many, quantity wise, it would make it worthwhile for these companies to come in and, you know, I could call them in and have them sign my property with obnoxious -- WATTS: Please don't do that. DEMPSTER: -- eye-catching signs. Well, you know, I'm just making a point that it could go in the reverse by trying to accommodate those, you know, addresses that are a little further out. WATTS: John, do we have any idea of the number of signs in -- by each type of sign that we're talking about, that are in town? Whether they're for sale signs, yard signs, we don't have any idea? Is that something that the code enforcement could tell us so we had some ideas. And I'm looking at the -- sort of back into how to get compliance and how to get management. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 38 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 43 And if it's even possible. WESLEY: So Chairman, Commissioner Watts, I could give you some numbers on the numbers of signs they move or relocate over the course of a weekend that are put out inappropriately. But how many total signs there are, I'm not sure how he's going to come up with that type of information. WATTS: I assume it's a heavy lift. But there's a lot of signs and zoning is -- WESLEY: It varies by time of year and so forth. But sort of factoring political season, it's a lot more than it is -- WATTS: Right. WESLEY: -- otherwise. But there are times it is quite a chore on the weekend to keep up with them. So Commissioners, the main things that I've heard this evening are to look at enforcement mechanisms. Again, probably some type of permitting system that can help insure that we would be able to control the number consistent with the types of language that's in the code. To potentially reduce some of the numbers in here. And in here, except for this last discussion, any discussion of increasing the numbers. A few things we talked about eliminating. That's the direction I will take from here to work on the next version. WATTS: I think just a little of clarification in some of the terminology. WESLEY: Right. DEMPSTER: Is it possible to list some examples? Because I'm thinking about the average resident who wants to have a garage sale who has no idea that their garage sale signs are covered under the sign ordinance. Because they think, I'm just going to put up a couple of signs, you know, Saturday and Sunday, and you know, write it on a cardboard box. And so say they do -- well, let me check, I mean to search through this ordinance that it's not intuitive for a garage sale sign -- I know it's temporary from, you know, but I don't know that the average person really would know where to look. WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner, you're right. I doubt somebody getting ready to have a garage sale is going to say, I better go look at the sign code to find out what it is and what -- look through that. When we adopted the new code a few years ago, you know, got some publicity out on it at the time. That's gotten old by now. Don't know if TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 39 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 43 it's even out there anymore. But one of the things that our code officers do first is try to educate people. And the reports I'm getting back as they, really for the most part, don't have as much problem with people putting out the cardboard box type of sign as they used to. Because it has become more and now in the community, what their standard is. It still happens some. DEMPSTER: Sure. WESLEY: And but probably, I take it once we finish this and get something new out there will be good to do some new education and get some publicity out with whatever we come up with. DEMPSTER: Okay. SCHLOSSBERG: Question on code enforcement and, you mentioned two and a half staff, if you will. That's not their primary duty is, I mean as far as signs. There's other code ordinances, I -- my question is, are they just out there on the weekends, driving around, trying to find what you just discussed? Or are they doing this eight hours a day, five days a week, or -- WESLEY: Chairman, Vice Chair, so back before we had the repeal of the sign ordinance, we did have somebody working each day of the week. And one of the main reasons for that was for sign enforcement to make sure we had somebody on the weekends out there to enforce the temporary sign provisions. When the code was repealed and then reinstated with limited temporary sign code enforcement, we stopped doing that because we didn't need to, but we'll be moving back into that again. So there are more codes they are working to enforce and violation that they're working on. It's not just signs, but it does become a big part of what they do. WATTS: One more suggestion. And this is for zoning, that it's kind of like a parking ticket. If they drive around and they happen to see a garage sale sign, some sign that is not compliant, to be able to not shut down or pick up and confiscate the signs, but to say, here's your envelope, here's the code that you need to comply with, send in your $25, whatever that might be. It might make it easier on code enforcement. It might bring it home easier. It certainly would be in the paper, where I got a parking ticket for something that did. But I wouldn't TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 40 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 40 of 43 disrupt the business. And I wouldn't disrupt the resident for something that they weren't aware of. And if there were multiple infractions, we'd keep track of that. So there's a lot of different mechanisms. But I don't want to make it more onerous on somebody that's having an innocent garage sale or even businesses. As much as, just to manage it, manage that process and help rather than hinder. WESLEY: Yes. Chairman, Commissioner, yes, that's why they approach, that they take particularly for people that are doing it on an infrequent basis. A lot of times, if a sign just need to be moved a few feet, they'll just move the sign. If it's a little more than that, they'll go to the property owner and say, hey, you know, here's the information about the code, what you can do, can't do, these need to, you go need to take care of. Or sometimes, they'll bring them back to them and say, you find a new location, whatever. Only when it gets a little more egregious so they get some of the repeat offenders, well, they just take the sign and move on into potential other enforcement mechanisms. DEMPSTER: I have one more question about Section 15, Vehicle Signs. WESLEY: Yes. DEMPSTER: So this states that the -- "If there's a vehicle or a truck that has the business signage displayed, they shall not remain in the same parking space for more than 48 hours." WESLEY: Yes. DEMPSTER: Has that always been in there? In our -- WESLEY: In this -- DEMPSTER: -- performance. WESLEY: -- in this code. I can't recall what we had in the code before this one with regard to this. DEMPSTER: Okay. All right. WATTS: I think you got to have longer than 48 hours. Service trucks have parked Friday night, they get cited come Sunday night before they even get out of their driveway? I think you got to have at least 72 hours. DEMPSTER: Yeah, I -- WATTS: That's too tight. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 41 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 41 of 43 DEMPSTER: -- observant -- GRAY: (Indiscernible). DEMPSTER: -- what, well, I'm not sure. It say if -- let's see, "Business or commercial vehicles displaying signage or advertising as a normal part of business activity may be parked in an off-street parking space adjacent to the business to which the vehicle relates as far from the public right-of-way as possible. If the vehicle is visible from the public right-of-way, it shall not remain in the same parking space for more than 48 hours". So this is parked at the business, not at their home. I don't know. GRAY: I mean, I think if it's adjacent to the business -- DEMPSTER: I'm just, like, thinking all the delivery, you know. GRAY: One example would be, you know, Erik Batchelor's got his barbecue joint. And he's got a mobile food truck. He parks the food truck adjacent to the business. To me, that can sit there indefinitely. It's just an extension of the business, so to speak. But if you're talking about parking that same food truck out on Shae and Saguaro in the MCO parking lot for everybody to see, I think that that's a different scenario. So I think there's an adjacency piece to that that makes it, that covers what you're asking for. And the 72 hours, give or take, versus the intent of this, which is to avoid leveraging that for advertisement out and away from the business, right? DEMPSTER: Um-hum. WATTS: I'd agree with you. And I think, but I do think that in the case of the barbecue place, does he have to get a permit for his truck if he's going to sit there? The way the codes read, the way the codes will ultimately read? WESLEY: So if it's parked back, as I assume it is, behind the business and the plateau parking lot, that's not along the street, we don't care. WATTS: Okay. Then I think I'd stick with the 72 hours because I think that that's -- 48 hours is just too tight, particularly for service vehicles that are poster boarded all over their trucks now. WESLEY: So if something is being stored versus parked, it should be in a screened yard and not in a parking place anyway. DEMPSTER: Yeah, but this is public parking. WESLEY: Right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 42 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 42 of 43 DEMPSTER: So -- WESLEY: And so it sounds like they're storing for the weekend and that it should be some place besides the parking lot. SCHLOSSBERG: I have no objection to adjusting that to 72. GRAY: So Commissioners, I think we're looking for a motion to continue, John? WESLEY: To August. I know we had some discussion about who was going to be here in different months. And we're -- or maybe we'd go all the way to September. I won't be ready in July, I know. We have two members going to be gone in August? Two gone, so I think, I don't know, maybe to go to September. WATTS: Is there any expectation on the part of the Council for when to return it? WESLEY: They were looking to have it back in April or May of -- so -- WATTS: And is -- what happens in the interim? That too, is it get, it seems to me that it's gotten worse. Are people taking more and more advantage of it and there's nothing we can do about the blight. WESLEY: Again, initially, the Council, when they reinstated the ordinance, wanted us to take a limited enforcement of temporary signs. I think some of the Council has seen some concerns with that. And we've been asked to step it up some and go back closer to what the code is. There was discussion about having it on the council meeting next week, for the council to reconsider that because their discussion back in February, I think it was, when they had this, was a little bit confusing, in order to know exactly what they wanted. So we may see that. I'm not sure exactly going to be on next week or not. But we are starting to do a little more enforcement of temporary signs because that has become a concern. So Chair, again, up to you and the Commissioners, knowing that we have at least two that won't be here in August. I suggest be September but it's up to you. GRAY: Okay. I'll go ahead and make the motion to continue Agenda Item 6, Ordinance 23-04, to the September venue of the Zoning Commission. Looking for a second. SCHLOSSBERG: I'll second. GRAY: All in favor. ALL: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven, zero. September 11th. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 43 of 43 JUNE 12, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 43 of 43 GRAY: Thank you, Paula. WOODWARD: Monday, September 11th. GRAY: All right. Discussion request from research to staff. Commissioners. Number 8, Commissioner request from the Development Services Director. WESLEY: Going to be working on a sign ordinance, some more. We always, I don't know, we should maybe someday amend our agenda because we always do 8 and 9 kind of together. As far as other items coming up, we do have a request for a special use permit that will probably be ready for your August agenda. Farhad, are you familiar with anything else that may be on that at this point? So we'll see how that goes. Otherwise, you know, we may not even have to have the August meeting at all. But if we do, that would be the purpose of it, that special use permit. GRAY: Okay. Adjourned. Thanks, John. [MEETING ADJOURNED AT 7:46 P.M.] ITEM 5. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS STAFF REPORT    Meeting Date: 08/14/2023 Meeting Type: Planning and Zoning Commission Agenda Type: Submitting Department: Development Services Prepared by: John Wesley, Development Services Director Staff Contact Information: John Wesley, Development Services Director Request to Planning and Zoning Commission (Agenda Language):  PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: Request for a SPECIAL USE PERMIT to allow up to 7 apartment units in the CC, Common Commercial Zoning District, on three lots totaling 0.27 acres located north of the northwest corner of El Pueblo Boulevard and Ivory Drive (16822, 16828, and 16830 E. Pueblo Blvd). Case #SUP23-000006. Staff Summary (Background) The commercial development at the northeast corner of Fountain Hills Blvd. and El Pueblo Blvd. is zoned C-C, Common Commercial.  This zoning district is the same as the C-1, Neighborhood Commercial and Professional, Zoning District, but allows for common parking areas rather than parking on individual lots.  The property at this corner was platted in 1973 for this type of development.  The existing building at 16726 E. El Pueblo Blvd. and a portion of the parking lot to the east were constructed prior to January 1986.  Additional buildings and parking were slowly added over the years.  The development as it exists today has been in place since 2004. This request includes the three lots on the north side of the parking lot along Ivory Drive.  Together, these lots total just over 11,800 sq. ft. The applicant is proposing to construct a building on the property that will have seven, two-story apartments.  Each apartment is approximately 1,656 sq. ft. in size.  Six of the units will have a two-car garage, one will have a one car garage.  A concept plan has been submitted to illustrate how the owner plans to develop the property. Residential uses are allowed in the commercial zoning districts only through approval of a Special Use Permit (SUP).  The alternative would be to rezone the property to a multi-family zoning district.  The R-5 zoning district (the Town's highest density multi-family zoning district) would allow six units on this property if it were combined into one lot.  If the SUP is approved, the next step for the applicant will be to prepare a final site plan as required by Sec. 2.04 of the Zoning Ordinance for review and approval by staff. General Plan The General Plan includes the following Goals and Policies: Neighborhoods Element  GOAL 2: Support a housing strategy that encourages a broad range of quality housing types to GOAL 2: Support a housing strategy that encourages a broad range of quality housing types to address current and future housing needs and to support long-term economic vitality. POLICIES  1. Encourage a broad range of housing types affordable to all income ranges and age groups in a manner compatible with adjacent development. 2. Encourage a range of housing types and residential densities and maintain consistency with the existing character of infill areas in conformance with criteria provided in Table 1: Character Areas Plan. 5. Direct higher-density residential and mixed-used development to the Town Center and redevelopment areas such as Shea Corridor as opportunities arise.  Character Areas Element  GOAL 1: Encourage future development, redevelopment and infill in a manner that will maintain and protect existing neighborhoods, the Town’s economic health, community well-being, and natural environment. POLICIES 1. Achieve and maintain a diverse and sustainable land use mix consistent with our small-town character that supports thriving neighborhoods, environment and economy by attracting and retaining revenue-generating uses that: a. Enhance the Town’s economic vitality; and b. Increase the Town’s revenue base to maintain quality infrastructure, services and amenities. GOAL: 2: Development, redevelopment and infill support Fountain Hills' small-town identity and the distinct character of each area while fostering long-term viability. POLICIES 3. Support a mix of residential, employment, and commercial uses at densities and intensities and in the development form that reflect the small-Town character of Fountain Hills. 5. Strongly encourage a wide range of housing types, densities and prices to support the current and projected populations (particularly families and working professionals) and to ensure the future stock of affordable housing for all income ranges.  6. Require that development, redevelopment, and infill conform with Exhibit 2, Character Aras Plan map, and Table 1. Section III of the general plan includes the information on the Character Areas in the Town.  This small commercial area at Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevards was included as part of the surrounding Neighborhood character type.  More specifically, this area is considered a Mixed Neighborhood with smaller lots and a mix of non-residential uses.  This existing commercial area is intended to remain a low intensity area with any further development or redevelopment consistent with the surrounding neighborhood and supportive of the commercial use of the area. Ordinance Requirements The zoning ordinance Section 12.03 allows consideration of residential uses in all commercial zoning districts with the approval of a SUP.  Section 2.02 of the zoning ordinance establishes the process and criteria for consideration of a SUP.  Section 2.02 F. 1. d. of the zoning ordinance states:   d. In order to recommend approval of any use permit, the findings of the Commission must be that the establishment, maintenance, or operation of the use or building applied for will not be detrimental to the public health, safety, peace, comfort, and general welfare of persons residing or working in the neighborhood of such proposed use, nor shall it be detrimental or injurious to property and improvements in the neighborhood or to the general welfare of the Town. This area has been zoned and platted prior to incorporation of the Town for commercial uses.  It is still the desire of the Town to have this be a successful commercial center.  The questions become:  Would allowing residential use of this property be detrimental to the desired commercial activity?1. Would the residential use be detrimental to the public health, safety, peace, or comfort of the neighborhood? 2. Is the residential use being designed and established in a manner that creates a desirable living environment in a manner compatible with the adjacent development and supportive of the general welfare of the Town? 3. A review of this property shows that over its almost 50-year history it has not fully developed and has largely been underutilized.  Two recent additions have been approved through Special Use Permits, one at the corner of Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard for a 10-unit apartment complex and one at the corner of El Pueblo and Ivory for a mixed use building that included ground floor office and four apartments a second floor.  The development at Ivory and El Pueblo has progressed to the building permit stage, the apartments at Fountain Hills Boulevard and Glenbrook are ready to submit for site plan review.  Over the last year, as staff processed the SUP's, site plans, and building permit, for this plat, more has been learned about this plat and commercial development.  There are approximately 10 different property owners in this development.  Each owner owns their individual lot(s) and is part of the common ownership of the parking lots and other common features.  For many years the Property Owner's Association was non-functioning, but has gotten revived the last few years and is starting to make some improvements.  The CC&R's for this development designate all the parking as common parking, which prohibits assigned parking.  The CC&R's also do not allow overnight parking, which becomes a problem when residential uses are allowed.  With these conditions, allowing more residential uses in this commercially zoned property will set up the likelihood of legal issues for the property owners.  The last time they tried to amend the CC&R's it took over two years to get all the owners to approve and sign the revised document.  (Note, the lot at Fountain Hills Blvd. and Glenbrook Blvd. that was approved for the 10-unit apartment development is not part of the Property Owners Association and is not impacted by the CC&Rs.)  The adjacent properties to the north and east are zoned and developed for residential uses.  Residential use on this property would be compatible with those uses.  However, the proposed scale and intensity of the new residential use is out of scale with the adjacent residential uses.  The adjacent properties are built with single-residence and duplex uses and zoned R-2.  With 7 units proposed on this property the density would be over 25 units per acre, which exceeds the R-5 density.  The General Plan encourages the highest densities in Town to be located near the Town Center and along Shea Boulevard. The C-C zoning district allows buildings up to 25' tall.  The adjacent property to the east and north is zoned R-2.  The lots to the north are built with single-story, single-family homes.  The properties across Ivory Dr. are developed with single-story, duplex condominiums.  According to the information available from the County Assessor's website, these homes have around 1,500 sq. ft. of living space in each home.  The proposed dwellings are two-story and 1,656 sq. ft. in size plus the garages.  The overall building mass, however, 25' tall, 150' long, 48' deep with a combined total square footage over 14,000 sq. ft. While none of the adjacent properties are currently developed with two-story buildings, they are permitted up to 30' in height. permitted up to 30' in height. The residential use is being designed as one large building broken into the seven individual dwelling units.  The small courtyard space in front of each unit provides an outdoor area for that unit.  The next closest existing building in the area in terms of size and mass is the former charter school building on the south side of El Pueblo. If these lots were developed with commercial uses, each lot could have 100% lot coverage at two stories in height.  However, given the limited parking this amount of commercial space could not be added; actual development would have to be smaller and more in keeping with the rest of the center.  There are approximately 113 parking spaces currently in this part of the development.  Using the standard for typical office and retail space (not restaurant space) this number of spaces would support up to 28,250 sq. ft. of commercial space.  There is already approximately 16,000 sq. ft. of space developed or planned so only about 12,000 additional sq. ft. of commercial space could be added. This number of residential dwelling units will require a minimum 16 parking spaces, 14 as required spaces for the residents and two as guest spaces.  Thirteen spaces are in the garages that will be part of the units, which means one of the required resident spaces and the two guest spaces will be in the associated parking lot.  While not a code violation from the Town's perspective, it will violate the CC&R's to have a resident parked in the parking lot overnight. If the Commission votes to recommend approval, a condition should be included that requires all 16 required parking spaces be provided on these lots, not in the associated common parking lot. If approved, the property owner will need to process a replat to combine the three lots into one prior to receiving a building permit. Citizen Participation The applicant mailed letters to property owners within 300' of the property on June 9th.  Staff received no comments as a result of those letters.  The Citizen Participation Report submitted by the applicant states he mailed letters to all the property owners within 300' on June 23, 2023.  He provided information to them on the type of development proposed and provided both an email address and postal address where comments could be made.  No comments were received.  Staff has not received any comments. Related Ordinance, Policy or Guiding Principle Fountain Hills General Plan 2020 Zoning Ordinance Section 2.02, Special Use Permits Zoning Ordinance Section 12.03 Risk Analysis N/A Recommendation(s) by Board(s) or Commission(s) N/A Staff Recommendation(s) This is property is zoned, platted and developed for commercial uses.  While additional residential uses This is property is zoned, platted and developed for commercial uses.  While additional residential uses in this commercial area may be beneficial, additional residential should only be considered in light of an overall plan for this commercial center and with resolution of the parking issues.  If the desire of the property owners is for this to transition to residential uses, it should be rezoned to an appropriate residential zoning district. For these reasons, staff believes the establishment, maintenance, or operation of the proposed use applied for will be detrimental to the public health, safety, peace, comfort, and general welfare of persons residing or working in the neighborhood of such and would be detrimental or injurious to property and improvements in this commercial development.  Therefore, staff recommends denial of this application. SUGGESTED MOTION MOVE to recommend denial SUP23-000006. Attachments Vicinity Map  Project Narrative  Site Plan  Elevations  Vicinity CASE: SUP23-000006 SITE / ADDRESS: 16822-16830 E EL PUEBLO BLVD APN 176-04-712A APN 176-04-713A APN 176-04-714A REQUEST: SUP FOR MULTI-FAMILY RESIDENTIAL FOR 7 UNITS IN THE COMMERCIAL PROPERTY. All that is Ariz on a FO U N TAIN HIL L S TOWN OF INC. 1989 MCDOWELL MOUNTAIN REGIONAL PARK SALT RIVER PIMA - MARICOPA INDIAN COMMUNITY FO R T M C D O W E L L Y A V A P A I N A T I O N SC O T T S D A L E Site Location Vicinity MapMap ::CaseCase DetailsDetailsSUP23-000006SUP23-000006 E GLENBROOK B L V D N F O U N T A I N H I L L S B L V D E EL PUEBLO BL V D N I V O R Y D R AL L E Y BA L B O A W A S H AL L E Y E A L A M O S A A V E N E S C O N D I D O D R CAL I E N T E W A S H M I R A G E C R O S S I N G C T N D E L R A Y D R This project consists of a proposed 7 Unit, 2-story Townhouse Development on a vacant commercial lot. Each unit will have approx. 1,656 sq. ft. with 6 units having a 2 car garage & 1 unit having a 1 car garage. Each unit would also have a private driveway for additional parking in addition to being a part of the shared parking plaza. The parcels are zoned C-C & part of an existing, largely undeveloped, commercial shared parking development.