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HomeMy WebLinkAbout240108 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 52 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes January 8, 2024 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 52 GRAY: All right. Let's go ahead and call this meeting to order. This is the January 8th venue of the Planning & Zoning Commission for the Town of Fountain Hills. If you would all please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. GRAY: Thank you. Agenda Item 2, Roll Call. Paula? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Watts? WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Chair Gray? GRAY: Here. Thank you, Paula. Agenda Item 3, Call to the Public. Paula, do we have any open call speaker cards? WOODWARD: Yes, we do. We have one, and the speaker is Larry Meyers. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. MEYERS: So real brief. Happy New Year. Thanks, Commissioner, Vice Commissioner -- or Vice Chair, Chair, Commissioners. I just want to say we club people over the head enough in our everyday lives in the town, so you got to give credit where credit is due and pay the compliment. Last month, whether I agree or disagree with your vote, at least you were there and you TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 52 were thoughtful. We don't always have to agree, but if we're thoughtful, we'll probably get somewhere. So that's all I want to say. I just want to thank you for doing what you do. And I know it's a lot of work, especially the 5G. See ya. GRAY: Thanks, Larry. Agenda Item 4, Consideration and Possible Action on the Regular Meeting Minutes from the December 11th, 2023 venue. Commissioners, any discussion or a motion, please? WATTS: I move to approve it -- move to approve it as submitted. KOVACEVIC: I'll second. GRAY: Commissioner Watts has moved, seconded by Commissioner Kovacevic. Paula, can we do a roll call vote, please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Chair Gray? GRAY: Aye. Thank you, Paula. All right. Swiftly on to Agenda Item 5, Public Hearing Consideration and Possible Action on Ordinance 24.03 to Amend Chapter 24, Medical Marijuana Uses Both in the Realm of Operating Hours and Off-Site Delivery. Farhad, your presentation, please? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 52 TAVASSOLI: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission, and Happy New Year. So what you have before you is Zoning Ordinance text amendment request requesting expanded operation hours and delivery service for medical marijuana dispensaries. So the Zoning Ordinance text amendment request, quite straightforwardly, requests expanded operation hours between 9 a.m. to 7 p.m. So the Zoning Ordinance regulates these hours. It's ten hours altogether. The applicant is requesting expanded hours totaling 14 hours, that running between 7 a.m. and 9 p.m. And along with that request is a request to remove the prohibition of delivery services. Now, although the text amendment request is not site-specific, there is only one medical marijuana dispensary in town. I kind of provided a -- whoops. Beg your pardon -- a contextual map on the left side. This is Saguaro Boulevard. Just south of the lake, there's a concentration of parcels that are zoned C-3. In fact, by my last analysis, that's the only area where there is C-3 zoning. Medical marijuana facilities are only allowed in the C-3 zoning district. And aside from that, there are a number of distance separation requirements from other uses in town that come into play when determining where such facilities can be located. And as I mentioned, there's one facility in town in this area. I believe it goes by the name of Nature's Medicine. But other than the two text amendment requests, everything else in Chapter 24 of the Zoning Ordinance, which addresses medical marijuana facilities, shall stay intact. That includes all the distance separation requirements from neighboring uses, such as schools, substance abuse treatment facilities, public parks and libraries, places of worship, and so on, as well as the other restrictions or limitations as well, such as only being able to locate in a C-3 zoning district. There's prohibitions on manufacturing and testing and consumption on premises that will remain unchanged. Security guards will still be required, as well as patrolling. Upon the request of the Town Manager, outdoor seating is prohibited so to discourage loitering. There are specific lighting requirements within the facility and also TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 52 unrestricted access by Town code enforcement and MCSO. So staff is recommending approval of the proposed ordinance as we believe it provides a competitive advantage for existing medical marijuana dispensaries -- or in our case, a dispensary -- over those in neighboring jurisdiction, and that's important to mention because neighboring jurisdictions -- or I should say dispensaries in neighboring jurisdictions -- are not precluded from providing delivery services to the Town of Fountain Hills. So a dispensary from Scottsdale can cross jurisdictional boundaries to make deliveries, and so that could be seen as kind of a competitive disadvantage to the existing facility. And plus, also, there's the opportunity for additional sales tax revenue. And with that, I conclude my presentation and open it up to questions. And I know the applicant has a fairly informative and extensive presentation to share, and she may -- might get into the state statutes and how those come into play as well. GRAY: Commissioners, unless there's an objection, I'd like to go ahead and have the presentation from the applicant. SCHUBE: Thank you so much. Chair, Vice Chair, Commissioners. For your record, Lindsay Schube with the law firm of Gammage & Burnham, 40 North Central in Phoenix, Arizona. Chivalry is not dead. Farhad, thank you for getting my presentation up for me. One correction on his presentation. The current dispensary is now Phoenix Cannabis. The previous dispensary that you had in town was Nature's Medicines, but just a minor detail. With me tonight is Tabitha Myers. She's a general counsel at Phoenix Cannabis. And Chloe Plaisance with Gammage & Burnham. So hopefully, between the three of us, we can answer all of your questions. Again, as Farhad mentioned, it's a relatively straightforward request in terms of the substance. Again, we're asking for four additional hours of operation, two on the front end and two on the back end. And we also want to remove the prohibition on delivery. As Farhad stated, Fountain Hills residents can get delivery. We actually found out yesterday that Mint Cannabis is actually putting a really big push in from their Scottsdale TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 52 dispensary to do more delivery in the Fountain Hills Area. The unfortunate thing, though, is the sales tax are generated from the store where you make the purchase, and so even though there are some companies in town that own multiple dispensaries, kind of a -- Mint Cannabis, for example, multiple storefronts, every license is an individual entity, and therefore , you know -- and is regarded that way in terms of the vertical integration of the business, and so wherever the sale is made, a delivery can be made anywhere in the state. So all of your neighboring jurisdictions, Scottsdale, Mesa, Payson, Chandler, Gilbert. I didn't put Gilbert on my list, but I know for a fact it is because I got that one approved. The West Valley cities, I know, are not as interesting to you, but they do all allow for delivery and could deliver to a Fountain Hills resident if they put in the order, and then the sales tax goes back to the jurisdiction the store -- the retail store -- is located in. What does the sales tax look like? There's a 2.9 percent sales tax that's on both the medical and the adult use purchase. Fountain Hills does prohibit an establishment only. You cannot have adult use only here in Fountain Hills. So the dispensary we have is a dual licensee. The 130 original licenses, when they converted to allow adult use, they had the opportunity and the obligation to sell both, so the dual license that you have here must sell both to medical and in the adult use market. With the adult use or recreational marijuana, you've got the 2.9 percent sales tax plus 16 percent medical excise tax -- or marijuana excise tax. Have the girl in the back who did all the research. 31.4 percent of that goes to law enforcement and fire, which will be very important to you now that I understand you have a new fire department. So you'll collect a portion of that 16 percent excise tax that's collected in the entire state. I would say the other reason, Commission, that I'm going to respectfully request approval of this request tonight is there's just an increase in demand. You did have a dispensary here in 2011 when the medical marijuana program started. That was a previous owner. That dispensary did leave. This new dispensary, Phoenix Cannabis, just opened their doors in August, August 25th of 2023. They are a small business owner. The owners and operators do have other dispensaries out-of-state, but this is the only TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 52 dispensary in the state of Arizona. They are committed to Fountain Hills. They would like to make a business work here. But we are respectfully requesting from the Commission and then, ultimately, the Council to support this small business in its revenue generation, which we feel we will be able to generate more revenue with the increased hours and the delivery. In terms of what that looks like, if the hours are increased, we will double our staff because we will need two shifts a day as well as drivers. And our -- so again, we opened August 25th. Our revenue has steadily increased 40 percent from when we opened up until now, and our daily transactions have increased 50 percent. So again, as we continue to attract customers, to let everyone know we're back, we hope that with the addition of the hours and the delivery that there will be an average of 13 to 25 percent increase on the business that we're doing already. So again, you are -- your citizens are getting delivery, but the tax is leaking out. And I know we don't make land use decisions based on that, but it is just a fact. The other thing -- if you are to allow delivery, hopefully, not only will you recapture tax dollars from your citizens, but the goal is that let's -- you guys can take some tax from Scottsdale and Mesa and some of those other people. So hopefully, also, the Fountain Hills dispensary will be able to deliver. Dispensaries are very specific. Again, like I said, the vertical integration -- there are certain products that people want. There are people who live outside of Fountain Hills who have requested that we deliver to them. But because there's a prohibition in the Zoning Ordinance, we cannot deliver to -- our products to Phoenix, Scottsdale, or Mesa, even if there is a resident in that jurisdiction who would like it, so -- but Fountain Hills would be able to capture that sales tax. For a state that does not like regulation, we have a lot of regulation in the -- in the medical marijuana program, and I think it's proven to be -- it's proven to be good because we do have a very safe and limited and restricted marijuana program compared to other states. You can't compare what we do here in Arizona to California or Colorado or some of those other states that sometimes you hear complaints about their TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 52 marijuana program. For delivery, there is a camera on the person driving the unmarked car. That is a requirement of state statute. There is also a camera on the person. The person driving the unmarked car is a facility agent. They've had a background check. They cannot have ever been convicted of a -- of a felony. And again, they have that camera on them and wearing it at all times when they're making deliveries. There is a trip log that has not only the address to and from but has west on Shea, north on 100th. AZDHS does two unannounced inspections. They not only look at cameras, the interior security, the inventory control, the fact that everyone has the FA card on their person. You get dinged if you leave your FA card over there and then you go over to a -- over to a register. You have to have that FA card on you at all times. They also look at trip logs. It is a $500 fine if your trip log is missing any information. When you make the delivery or when you put in a request, the dispensary has to have the medical card as well as the ID. It is loaded onto the system. And when the facility agent makes the delivery, and it's just one from the retail location there, they check the same identification and take a picture of it. Those records must stay on file for five years. So it is a very, very regulated system that is checked. Not -- you know, not only is it in state statute and we have to make sure that we stick with it, but again, two unannounced inspections a year. I would say dispensaries are the most regulated business we have in the state. As far as operating hours, either surprisingly or not, Fountain Hills is the most restrictive in terms of hours in the entire state. You are limited from 9 to 7. I say that somewhat tongue-in-cheek because obviously, all the jurisdictions had very restrictive zoning ordinances in the space when they were adopted. It made sense. No one knew how it was going to roll out. I will tell you I've processed at least six text amendments in this space. In the town of Gilbert most recently, we got the hours increased. This was our second hours text amendment to allow us to go from 8 a.m. to 7 p.m. It was approved on December 12th on the consent agenda. Who would have guessed? You know, when we started this, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 52 there was a lot more public comment and a lot more going on. But you know, Scottsdale is 6 a.m. to 10 p.m. I would say that's one of our biggest competitors. We are not asking to match them, but we have had a request not only for the early hours, but also the later hours. Another important thing to note, Commission, if you are to recommend approval of the 7 to 9. That doesn't mean we will be open the entire time, but it allows us the flexibility. Weekends, we may have more hours, weekdays, but it does allow us to operate and to deliver within those hours. So again, you know, Scottsdale has the most, from 6 to 10. Chandler, 7 a.m. to 10 p.m. Chandler also has the early residents. Gilbert -- my client didn't ask for 7, so I don't know what Gilbert would have done if we would have asked. They don't seem to have the demand earlier in the morning, but we just got the 10 p.m. approved in December. And Payson was just approved from 8 a.m. to 9 p.m. So with that, I think I've answered a lot of the questions. I stand for questions and respectfully come forward with the recommendation of approval from staff and respectfully recommend -- request approval from your body. GRAY: Other one. Commissioner Schlossberg -- SCHLOSSBERG: It's been a while. GRAY: -- maybe there's -- SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah, it's been a while. Okay. Sorry about that. Question. I read what I've read several times. As far as delivery goes, the delivery is medical and nonmedical, correct? SCHUBE: Chair, Commissioner, no. As of right now, medical is the only delivery that's permitted. They do have to make rules on recreational delivery sometime before 2025. I have heard from people at Arizona Department of Health Services that it will look a lot like medical, if not exactly, but at this time, no, the State prohibits recreational delivery. It will -- and you're -- there is also something in Prop 207 that says, you know, the cities are allowed to make more restrictive rules than the state. However, adult use and medical have to be the same. So you can't allow the delivery of one but not the other. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 52 SCHLOSSBERG: So what we're working with today is only for medical delivery -- SCHUBE: Correct. SCHLOSSBERG: -- in Fountain Hills. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I've only got a couple dozen questions, so bear with me. The food cart that's out in front, is that by design? With the -- not having loitering out front, a food cart seems to be contradictory to that. Who put the food cart there? GRAY: It's an advertisement. I don't think it's a food cart. WATTS: It is. [CROSS TALK] UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Accessory business. SCHUBE: Through the Chair, Vice Chair, I wanted to make sure I gave the right answer. It is not a food truck. It is simply a truck with our logo on it. We do not -- there's no food or anything. It's just a truck that we use. WATTS: Then I mis -- then you misunderstood. I said food cart. There is a food cart on the end of that strip center, on the east end, taking up -- I guess it's a handicap spot, and it is right underneath the canopy selling hot dogs, hamburgers, that sort of thing. Not that I was there or anything. I just saw it, right, so -- SCHUBE: Chair, Vice Chair, I don't think that's -- WATTS: But it's not theirs is what you're telling me? SCHUBE: It's not our operation. Correct. WATTS: Okay. So I'll accept that. Sorry about that. Does the current dispensary have any affiliation with any other municipalities or any other locations or are they singular license only? SCHUBE: Chair, Vice Chair, the only retail location is here in Fountain Hills. We do have cultivation in Tolleson, but it all operates under the license that's registered here to Fountain Hills. WATTS: And the cultivation that goes on inside this facility is for compliance purposes, for the regulations? I mean, there's two plants in there is what he's got? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 52 SCHUBE: Correct. Chair, Vice Chair, it's for -- yes, so that we can be -- WATTS: It's for compliance for the second part, the dual license issue? SCHUBE: Correct. WATTS: Okay. You said it's going to double the staff. How many people are you talking about employing in addition to who you already have when you double? SCHUBE: Through the Chair, Vice Chair Watts, we don't -- we don't know. We will know for sure that we have to double the existing staff if we double the hours because right now, we can have employees just work one shift. We will break off into two shifts, so there'll be double the amount of people there a day if we take advantage of the full hours. WATTS: So how many direct employees do you have now? SCHUBE: There are, operating in the retail location, anywhere between six to ten at a time. We actually, if anyone's watching, are looking for employees. It's a tough market to -- the leadership team obviously does not work out of that office, and these changes won't impact the leadership team, but we will have to increase our retail staff. And that also doesn't count the cultivation staff that we have in Tolleson. WATTS: But you're really not going to double the 6 to 10. You're going to double the shift, effectively, to complement the existing shifts? SCHUBE: Through the Chair, we would need a lot more people if we get these additional hours as well as delivery because, again, the delivery and the unmarked car must be done by a facility agent. You can't do it in conjunction with, let's say, an Uber Eats or a taxi service or anything like that. We need one of -- it needs to be an employee. And generally, they deliver out in two-hour shifts, so there's a lot of driving back and forth that happens between the dispensary and -- WATTS: Okay. We had talked earlier about the impact of sales tax revenue, and you were going to do some figuring out what the current -- when you say we could increase by ten to 15 percent. And having the conversation with your general manager there, very informative. Very helpful, by the way. And he did say that he's looking at a ten to 15 percent incremental increase if the hours are expanded. So what would that mean TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 52 from a revenue standpoint to the Town? SCHUBE: Through the Chair, Vice Chair, as we discussed the other day, because we only opened on August 25th, there are a lot of unknowns out there right now. We don't have the historic data from when Nature's Meds was operating because that was under a different ownership group. Again, as I said, the revenue has increased 40 percent since August. Now, again, is some of that seasonal? Because obviously, the summer, it's not as busy as in the winter. We also had the issue of -- there were some amazing transportation improvements that are really necessary, but that did hinder our sales for a couple weeks. So we really don't have the historic data of how much we think we can generate from that location, but they do say -- the general manager said he does think it's a 13 to 25 percent increase depending on the month if we were to have -- or the CFO did. And -- but again, we hope to also just have an incremental increase in our revenue by just people knowing that we're there. WATTS: And that incremental revenue really comes down to right around 5.3, 5.4 percent of the MET plus the 2.9 percent for the current sales tax. So just to be clear, we're not 16 percent on the MET. We're that five point plus. SCHUBE: Correct. Through the Chair, again, I like to say high tides raise all boats. The 16 percent MET does go to the state and does go to things like education and other areas, but correct, it's a smaller amount that directly impacts Fountain Hills, greater now that you have a fire department. WATTS: Do you know what the breakdown is between medical and recreational? SCHUBE: In terms of sales? WATTS: Yes. SCHUBE: Through the Chair, I'd say from an industry standpoint, it's getting to be about 80 percent recreational, 20 percent medical. WATTS: Okay. SCHUBE: And that's not specific to this dispensary. I'm just speaking statewide. WATTS: I think that does it for me. Thank you. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 52 SCHUBE: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Lindsay. I had some questions coming into this. Oh, and I will note that I stopped by today. SCHUBE: Okay. COREY: I don't know that I've ever been in a store like that before, and I wanted to see what the operation was like and the people, and they were very courteous. And they took my ID at the front. I had to walk around, and then they gave it back to me. So I could definitely see there was a process there. And in fact, on my way out, I passed by somebody in a wheelchair that was sitting at the window waiting to get in, and it just made me realize what they may have had to go through to get into there today, so definitely can see where that may be effective to deliver. But my questions were mainly around confirming that when it's delivered, it's the right person, and you addressed that, that they have to take a picture of the ID and make sure that it's the right person. Okay. But then also, safety of the delivery driver. As you mentioned, there's an unmarked car, but you said that they'll deliver for two hours. How many deliveries would they typically do in one stretch? SCHUBE: Yeah. Through the Chair, Commissioner Corey, great question. Again, it's very dependent on how many orders come in. When I say kind of two-hour batches, they'll -- again, they take the orders online. You'll have a delivery window. And again, we do have a narrow delivery window because, yes, not only do they take the picture of the ID, but you cannot leave the product with anyone other -- you can't leave it on the doorstep. You can't give it to your -- you know, can't give it to the wife or the -- you know -- COREY: Okay. SCHUBE: -- you can't give it to anyone else. It has to go to the person that ordered. Most of the time, there's only one or two deliveries that go out an hour, but again, it just depends. But we -- and the product also -- state statute requires that the product TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 52 cannot be seen. So not only are you in an unmarked car, in a sealed package -- COREY: Okay. SCHUBE: -- the customer gets a sealed package, but the product cannot be visible from the outside of the car. COREY: Well, you answered my next question as well, so thank you. SCHUBE: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioners, no other questions for the applicant? All right. Let's open up the public hearing. Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: I have a couple questions. Yes. Thank you. Hi, Lindsay. Sorry I couldn't be there this evening. I just have a couple of questions. I did a little research online, and do you -- do you have to follow the arizonastatecannabis.org's delivery guideline, or is that just a add-on? SCHUBE: Yeah. Through the Chair, Commissioner Dempster, I mean, the -- so statute is the -- is the first thing that regulates delivery, and then there are, in -- through the Arizona Department of Health Services, additional rules and regulations under statute. If you found a delivery guide online as a tool, you know, there are different groups, the Arizona Dispensary Association, et cetera, that will take statute and rule, you know, and devise it down. But at the end of the day, the law does come from statute and rule from AZDHS, but I bet you found something online that maybe pared it back to a little bit more of a reader-friendly version. I'm not aware of which document you're talking about, but it all stems from statute. DEMPSTER: You covered, you know, the trip plan and the vehicle has to be not identifiable and the product not visible. There was something interesting on here that I was just curious if you would be doing. It's the amount of marijuana in the possession of the dispensary agent transporting the delivery is -- cannot exceed the amount disclosed on the trip plan. So I think there's some -- if that's followed, there's some safety in that as well. SCHUBE: Through the Chair, Commissioner, absolutely. So the trip log -- and I will say if TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 52 there is one error on that trip log -- so again, two unannounced inspections from AZDHS a year. Any error on the trip log is a $500 fine. And as soon as they find one, they audit the rest of them. I've seen some -- you know, again, not ever malicious or intentional, but AZDHS checks on that. Commissioner Dempster, it is a max of 2.5 ounces a person. And yes, however much is on the trip log, the vehicle cannot carry any more than that. DEMPSTER: Yeah. So I could see there could be multiple trips because they can't carry multiple people's orders. They kind of have to go back and forth. Are they able to give the product to the caregiver, or does it have to be the actual person? SCHUBE: Great question. Through the Chair, Commissioner Dempster, if the caregiver is registered as -- but you need your caregiver card. They will not give it to a caregiver that doesn't have a caregiver card. You must be registered and have a caregiver card in order to receive the product. If not, the actual patient will have to be there at the door to receive it. DEMPSTER: Okay. Great. Thank you. And one last question. It is possible that you would deliver outside of Fountain Hills, correct, with staff? But I also saw there were many services online like DoorDash and such but for the marijuana industry, but I'm guessing you are able to then, if approved, deliver outside of Fountain Hills as well for those towns? SCHUBE: Through the Chair, correct. And I will -- yeah. I will say there are, from what I understand, maybe a couple illegal delivery services that the Arizona Dispensary Association is working on shutting down. But yes, this would -- we can deliver anywhere in the state of Arizona. DEMPSTER: Okay. Great. Thank you very much. Those are all my questions. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I got one more follow-up question pursuant to what Commissioner Dempster asked about the -- if the caregiver doesn't have to be a medical user, as being a registrant, is there something like -- I know what it is. It's like an ROI. But either a HIPAA -- -- why am I stumbling here? There is some form that they can fill out and have TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 52 notarized or signed by the user so that the caregiver can receive instead of the patient itself receiving? SCHUBE: Yeah. WATTS: Yes? SCHUBE: Through the Chair, correct. Yes. And you can get a caregiver card that allows you to pick up on behalf of a medical patient. So you can get a caregiver card that allows you -- especially in dispensaries when it was medical only, you could go on with your caregiver card that was attached to a patient card, and therefore, they would sell to you on behalf of the medical patient. But that's all regulated through the State. You absolute -- it's the same thing -- it's kind of a power of -- a medical power of attorney, kind of, that you fill out and you're connected to the person. WATTS: So we don't know the name of it, though, so -- because the next time I ask this question, I want to know what I'm asking to be specific about the form, so maybe you can find that out later and let me know what that form is. Thank you. SCHUBE: Through the Chair, Vice Chair Watts, I will follow up with you. But I do know it's a caregiver card. GRAY: Anything else, Commissioners? Paula, speaker cards? WOODWARD: We have one speaker card for Matthew Corrigan. And while he's walking to the podium, we had two written submittals. One person is against the zoning change. That would be Liz Gildersleeve. And then I just want to read a small comment. J.P. Ward is for the off-site delivery of medical marijuana, and he was noted to say that, "It would be a godsend for medical marijuana patients who rely on cannabis strains to treat their pain and PTSD. It would also encourage discreet, socially responsible and housebound use of legal cannabis as opposed to smoking and vaping in public. Thank you for your consideration." GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Sir, the floor is yours. CORRIGAN: Mr. Chair, Vice Chair, and Commissioners, Matthew Corrigan, a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 52 homeowner, a full-time resident of Fountain Hills, and I'm here to oppose this amendment. I do have the package by Linda (sic) Schube of Gammage & Burnham law office, and they're asking for an amendment to the Fountain Hills Ordinance 24.03. I've read the narrative statement of justification from the lawyer and would like to respond by item. Number one, the increase in sales tax. This is not a compelling benefit for the Town of Fountain Hills. The 2.9 percent sales tax increase revenue from the additional four business hours per day is really not significant enough to impact the entire asset base of Fountain Hills, and so the argument is nullified by the note that marijuana users already get free delivery from existing dispensaries outside of Fountain Hills. This really does not justify an ordinance of this type for this change. Number two, increase and demand. This is not an appealing reason, from my opinion, for residents of Fountain Hills. What benefit does it really bring Fountain Hills? That's the question. How does it enhance the Fountain Hills environment? How does it impact us as a town? And really, what does that have to do with making Fountain Hills unique or better? I think very little. The National Institute of Health, on May 4th, 2023 -- I'm just talking about the product now, marijuana. The National Institute of Health, on May 4th, 2023, said that, "Young men," and I quote, "with cannabis use disorder have increased risk of schizophrenia." On August 1st, 2022, Dr. Ken Finn, president of the American Board of Pain Medicine and the vice president of International Academy of Science Impacts of Cannabis (sic) said, "High-potency cannabis use being linked to poisonings in young children as well as psychosis and schizophrenia in an increasing number of regular users is standard. A lot of my colleagues" -- this is a quote, still, from him. "A lot of my colleagues that work in psychiatry and emergency medicine are seeking a sharp -- seeing a sharp rise in marijuana-related psychosis, Finn told NTD, The Nation Speaks Out (ph.) program interviewer. High-potency THC, tetrahydrocannabinol, the photo -- the psychoactive agent of cannabis, is generally about ten percent, but some contain as much as 40 to 60 percent THC." TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 52 And the third point, the competitive advantage. I don't see how the competitive advantage for a business helps, again, the Town of Fountain Hills. And thank you very much for your time and attention. By the way, Happy New Year, and thanks for your work. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Corrigan. No more speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Okay. We'll go ahead and close the public hearing. We'll call the applicant back up and Farhad back up. Final discussion. Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes. Thank you. Just something that Mr. Corrigan mentioned. I just wanted to see if you could address that what is available is safe. SCHUBE: Through the Chair, Commissioner Corey, thank you for that. Correct. This is all regulated, tested product that's being sold. There are some higher potencies. Those are in medical only. The one interesting thing about the adult use or recreational cannabis, it has lower quantities that you can purchase and lower potencies. The high potencies is normally just for really severe cancer patients who need something, and you must have that medical card to get it. There are quite a few studies that say when you have the regulated sale of cannabis, it does help push out the illegal market. The -- it's a legal business. We have testing, a ton of regulation. And you know, what I would say to you in terms of it being a benefit to Fountain Hills, I was talking to Farhad, and I want to make sure I get it right, but in your C-1 zoning district, right, your C-1, it's supposed to be the most compatible with neighbors. That's the only district that does have any hour regulation, and that's 7 a.m. to 11 p.m. We're in C-3. Any other business located in C-3 can operate any hours. We're asking for 7 to 9, which is less restrictive -- or which is more restrictive, sorry, than what is even allowed in your C-1 district, which is the most -- which is the -- supposed to be the closest to the neighbors. So I believe this is an appropriately placed use in this location and that these changes TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 52 will be a good impact to the small business owner that we have here and, hopefully, a good impact for the customers of -- the residents of Fountain Hills that are customers of the dispensary. GRAY: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Chair. For, I think, Commissioner Gray and myself, we were here several years ago when we heard this before for Nature's Medicine, and if I remember correctly, I think Nature's Medicine was requesting to stay open until 10 p.m., and they also wanted the delivery. And I don't believe recreational was allowed at that time, if I remember correctly. But as a commission, we did send a recommendation of approval to town council, which we know kind of how that went, and as a result, Nature's Medicine checked out of town, and that was a detriment. So I don't -- honestly, I don't want to say the same thing happened because I think this is a benefit to the Town, so -- GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: So this is going to sound like eavesdropping, but the half hour, forty-five minutes that I was sitting in the facility, do you anticipate the same patient stream, would you think, in those after hours or do you think it would be the same? Because during that period of time, I probably witnessed somewhere between 1,000 and $1,500 worth of transactions, and if you extrapolate that over the course of the year, it's going to be somewhere between -- just at the 2.9 percent, not including MET, it's going to be somewhere beneficial to ten to $15,000 worth of sales tax revenue. So the question is, is the anticipation that the additional hours will have the same volume? Is it going to be more volume? Do you have any -- have you done any kind of traffic studies on what this impact could benefit? SCHUBE: Through the Chair, Vice Chair Watts -- and I love that you're -- again, lawyers aren't -- math is not my forte, but I'm working on it, and I appreciate all these math- oriented questions. Part of the additional hours is not only just the dollar-for-dollar sales that we are going to get by those additional four hours. It's increasing our customer base. With such TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 52 limited hours, we just can't attract enough customers. With 9 o'clock in the morning to 7 o'clock at night, the average person -- you know, zoning attorneys -- heck, I'm out in all these jurisdictions in the evenings, you know. So it's just all -- it's not only the hour-for- hour we anticipate additional sales tax. We also anticipate adding to our customer base by allowing delivery and having more hours in order to serve customers. We're hoping that that will help attract customers overall. So yes, at least that amount of money, if not more. WATTS: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster, anything further? DEMPSTER: No. But I did (audio interference) not a question but just a clarification. I think, Commissioner Schlossberg, we did look at this in the past with the other company, but this is, I think you said, recreational, and this is just for medical delivery, not recreational delivery. And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you said recreational delivery, but this is just medical delivery, to clarify, correct? SCHUBE: Through the Chair, medical delivery is the only thing that's permitted in the state at this time, correct. SCHLOSSBERG: Commissioner Dempster, that's a relevant statement up until 2025, but January 1, 2025, the State will have to have criteria in place to facilitate recreational delivery. So I think we assume, at this point, what we put through here is pertinent to both ultimately. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. And I -- just another statement, I guess. You know, other towns and cities are coming into Fountain Hills, delivering. I would feel better if it was being delivered, you know, from our own dispensary in town, someone who's familiar with the clientele and the area. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I want to echo that sentiment from Commissioner Dempster. If we're going to have a good corporate citizen in our town that's paying its sales taxes, we ought to give them the tools to compete. We did see this once before. I think most of us were on the board -- or on the commission here. And once they were turned down TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 52 by town council, they wound up leaving town, and I don't -- I don't think we want that. As long as you're a good corporate citizen, we -- you should be able to compete. So I'm in favor of -- I support the amendment -- or the text amendment. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes. And I would agree with them as well, and I do support this. I think primarily, you know, increased access for patients is important. And I can remember when I was a kid, my uncle had MS, and I remember that he used marijuana to help him with his conditions, but he didn't have a local provider that could deliver it. I remember the challenges that he had to go through to get that. He's no longer with us, but I wish that he had those opportunities. And then also, like you mentioned, the competitive advantage. If people here are already getting it from other communities, then it should come from our town. So yeah, I'm for that as well. Thanks. GRAY: Anything, Commissioner Dapaah? No? Just a couple softball questions for you. C-1 being 7 to 11, and you're paying the applicant fee for a text amendment, why not go for something that's synonymous with the C-1 hours of operation? SCHUBE: Chair, that's a fabulous question. We'd take 7 to 11. We saw Mark Steinmetz and Nature's Med. Again, and Commissioner Schlossberg was correct, it was before adult use. He was asking for, I believe, 7 a.m. to 10 p.m., and he was asking for delivery. He was my client at the time, but I didn't represent him in this case. We wanted to give something that we thought was lined up with the town. Again, it's one hour less than Scottsdale on either end. Again, Scottsdale is 6 to 10. We feel it aligns with the town's values, and we wanted to be respectful. It's time we actually think we're going to be open. I don't want to ask for additional hours that we don't think we're going to need. So Chair, I wanted to have a respectful request that is something that could be approved and supported by the Commission and the Council. GRAY: And then my other question is on the deliveries. You know, we say deliveries in that window. Is that -- is the start of that window leaving the shop? You know, so doors TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 52 open at 7. Delivery driver leaves, and delivery driver must be back to the shop for doors closed. So is the delivery window actually 8:45, or could someone place an order at 8:59 and the delivery actually then happen, let's just say, for argument's sake, an hour later? SCHUBE: Chair Gray, that's a -- I mean, the State doesn't have any limits, right, and the -- for example, if there were -- a county island could deliver at any time, I would say to stay within the confines of the ordinance that we would deliver from 7 a.m. to 9 p.m. And if it was 8:45, depending on how close they were, maybe we could make it. If not, it would be a first thing in the morning delivery. GRAY: So the drop would be time stamped prior to 9 p.m.? SCHUBE: Yes. GRAY: Okay. Any other comments, Commissioners? Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Did you get your answer to your question? Did Council turn down the 11 to -- the 7 to 11? Did you -- GRAY: They turned down everything. WATTS: -- reject it? You don't want anything at this point? GRAY: No, no, no. I -- SCHUBE: Through the Chair, we never asked for it. GRAY: No, I asked why -- if you're -- WATTS: I know you did. GRAY: But if you're paying a $3,500 application fee -- WATTS: Right. I just want to make sure she rejected it. GRAY: Well, she didn't reject it. SCHUBE: I didn't reject it, Chair, if you -- but we do -- we do want to give -- I would like to bring forward a proposal that can be successful. WATTS: So I don't want to convolute this thing, so you guys tell me if this is off base. And Lindsay, you guys as well. But I would propose, for a little further discussion, that we recommend you get storefront hours from 7 to 11 commensurate with C-1, but we limit your delivery window from either 7 to 8 p.m. or even 8 to 8. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 52 I'd like to see in-town deliveries constrained a little bit so they don't, you know, run into the tail of the night. Out-of-town deliveries, have a nice day. You can deliver until 11 p.m. for all I care. But I'd like to see some constraint on the in-town deliveries, but I see no harm, no foul in giving you storefront hours that are commensurate with C-1. All likelihood, you're back here in two years asking for the same thing anyway. I think it cleans up -- it just makes the timetables simpler for everyone to remember, code enforcement, et cetera. So Commissioners, I -- actually, Lindsay, I'd like to ask you first, your thoughts on that or the applicant's thoughts, and Commissioners, any thoughts as well. SCHUBE: Chair, Commission, thank you for letting me ask my client. If -- I agree, you know, Gilbert -- when I just showed that we just got another time extension in December of this year -- I think it's our second or third request. Again, I've done bite-size chunks in Gilbert as well. We would take 7 to 11. I don't think we would probably stay open that long. But if -- again, if the delivery hours are limited, they'll be limited for out of town as well. So 7 to 9 is our hours that we are very comfortable with. If anything, maybe 7 to 10. I know, then, that's not commensurate with the C-1, but 7 to 9 is something we're comfortable with in this jurisdiction. We do want the early hours. You do seem to have a lot of early risers who are asking us to be open earlier. So yes, I'd never want to say no, Chair, to additional hours, but again, looking forward to making sure that something goes to Council that they can support as well, and the additional four would be very meaningful in our business in terms of moving forward and being a good steward of the community. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: How long would it take the applicant to get a procedure in place to manage the difference between storefront hours and delivery hours and -- because that's not a requirement now. How long would it take to set that up so you'd be comfortable with it if you ever got checked on it? SCHUBE: Yeah. Through the Chair, Vice Chair Watts, good question. In our policies and TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 52 procedures right now, you are required to have all of those sections, including delivery, even though in these policies and procedures, it says not permitted by the Town. So I think it would be relatively straightforward. Again, it would all originate out of -- out of the location. But I don't think it would be that complicated to have the difference, although if they align, you know, then there is zero room for error, so -- WATTS: Well, you could assure the -- you could assure the Commission that within the 30-day -- from the time that we would make a decision, you would have it in place, operational? SCHUBE: Chair, absolutely. And through -- sorry, Vice Chair. Through the Chair, Vice Chair Watts, any changes we make have to be updated in our policies and procedures manual, and again, that is checked with the two unannounced inspections a year. They look through all of it and make sure it's up to date. So it will have to be in place before we implement anything. WATTS: I think Farhad wants to yell at me. SCHUBE: You can yell, Farhad. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, pursuant to the idea of expanding those operating hours even further to 11 p.m., we should note that the -- this item was advertised in the local paper to reflect the actual proposal, which is between the hours of 7 a.m. and 9 p.m., so -- WATTS: So to extend beyond would be unbecoming. TAVASSOLI: To extend beyond only from -- I guess from a procedural standpoint, but certainly, if that's something the Commission or the Town has their heart set on, then we could readvertise. WATTS: So let's go down this path just once again. I mean, if we have this discussion and if, Lindsay, you guys are wanting to do it, we would propose to continue in order to get that advertised publicly? SCHUBE: We normally don't have these problems. Chair -- WATTS: We like to make these things difficult. SCHUBE: I know. You're being very, very business-friendly. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 52 I think -- WATTS: You know, often we're told we're not, interestingly enough. SCHUBE: Well, right now, you are. I think it's very important to us to move forward and get the additional hours and additional delivery, so I think a continuance would be a hindrance. I think, by law, if you had a city attorney here, they would say you can make whatever recommendation you want because then it would be advertised for town council at those hours. But it is important for us to move forward, especially under this construction -- the time constraints with the construction of the road. Again, it was -- it's an us problem. It's not a -- it's not a Town problem. The Town was fabulous at helping us react to the roads being closed, but the hindrance in hours was -- you know, we did find -- no one -- the customers did not come while the construction was going. So we've had three weeks of really tough going in December, which is normally a pretty good time of year. So -- WATTS: Okay. SCHUBE: -- we're really interested in moving forward -- WATTS: Okay. Fair enough. SCHUBE: -- and working (indiscernible). GRAY: Commissioner? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And I think, I mean, personally, I would rather keep the hours where they are and have the delivery until 9 -- GRAY: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- in my humble opinion. GRAY: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You going to make a motion? WATTS: No? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do you not agree with that? WATTS: No, no, I do. I'm asking -- if you want to make the motion, then go ahead. Or if you want me to, I will. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Go ahead. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 52 WATTS: So it's real simple. I move to approve as submitted. GRAY: Okay. DEMPSTER: I'll second that. GRAY: She beat you. How did she beat you to it, both of you? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She's watching you. GRAY: Seriously. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: She's on YouTube. She doesn't have to push a red button. GRAY: Well, that's disappointing. Okay. So Commissioner Watts has made the motion to forward a recommendation to approve Agenda Item Number 5, Amending Chapter 24 to Allow Hours of Operation Between 7 and 9 as well as Off-Site Delivery of Medical Marijuana. Commissioner Dempster jumped in ahead of two other commissioners to second the motion. Paula, let's go to a roll call vote, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Chair Gray? GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven-zero. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Thank you, Lindsay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 52 SCHUBE: Thank you all very much. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. Bye-bye. SCHUBE: Good luck (indiscernible). GRAY: All right. Agenda Item 6, Review, Discuss, and Direction Potentially in Relation to Wireless Services, Broadband Services, and Underground Utilities. Mr. Wesley. WESLEY: Commissioners, Happy New Year. I know that you are used to me standing here for hours on end giving you presentations on various topics. I'm not going to do that this evening. We are here to mostly hear from the public to see what their comments, concerns, issues are that they'd like to see addressed with regard to wireless communication facilities in town and also to hear from you as commissioners, what you think we ought to be working on in terms of any text amendments. The information I have available for you at this time was all provided in the staff report, and so rather than reiterating that at this point, I'd rather just go ahead and hear from you and from the public. GRAY: Commissioners, you want to do public comment first, and then we can deliberate, discuss? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). GRAY: All right. Let's open the public -- guess it's not a hearing -- public discussion. Paula, speaker cards, please? WOODWARD: We have one speaker card. Lori Troller. GRAY: Lori, you didn't ask for it, but I know you put a lot of work into this, so we are going to probably turn the clock off for you, give you five minutes. TROLLER: Oh, my God. I just want to preface this with I'm used to dealing with the council, and it's a little bit different environment, so I'm at a -- GRAY: Well, you know what? TROLLER: -- (indiscernible) right now, so it's going to be a little bit much for you guys (indiscernible) good. GRAY: We're business-friendly today. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 52 TROLLER: I don't have to fly through this. Okay. Hello, Chairman, Vice Chairman, Commissioners, and Paula. I'm Lori Troller, resident 28 years. I'm going to jump straight into the heart of this. It is a disservice to the topics to require discussion to write the ordinance that contains all the protections that the Town can possibly include according to federal and state law. There are many reasons that this is not clear-cut, so I stress the importance of transparent discussion on the topic, and with that, I guarantee you we'll get there. Among the typical monthly bills most of us pay are our phone, TV, and Internet services. Most folks incorrectly refer to this stuff as 5G. Let's clarify that from the start. The confusion through this process will be the difference between broadband and cellular services, technically referred to as Type 1 and Type 2 services, Type 1 being broadband, and that's the one pertaining to this ordinance. From the perspective of paying bills every month versus a technology perspective, we know these are different services because our phone bill can go up and the Internet and TV bills don't and vice versa in any combination. But from a technology perspective, these services are extremely different. The technical protocols are so different that if telecom companies tried to send cellular data on a broadband technology, it won't work. Same as if you put diesel in an electric car. Again, from a consumer's perspective, it seems there's not much need to understand anything about the technology. It's nothing to be ashamed of. It's baked into our culture. For instance, how many of us can open the car hood, know all the car parts, and fix the car when it's broke? Again, ownership is more about using the service and paying the monthly bill. But to you guys who sit here tonight as lawmakers, if you are going to say X, Y, Z is required, hopefully you understand exactly what that means technically. Keep in mind, there's no insurance the Town can buy when one of these thousands of antennas fails or catches fire, which they do. It will come back to the council. There are series blowbacks for failure of these technical devices, which have a significant impact on the human environment. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 52 We are residents that are extremely reasonable and educated people and simply want answers that you can't give us yet, and that's only because you don't have the information as of yet. We don't want to see Fountain Hills littered with multiple poles. We want to make sure things are done in a fashion that's not determined by our property -- or that is not detrimental to our property values. There's a very simple solution to all this. The Telecommunication Act regulates Type 2 communications, which is cellular, not broadband. With this very simple fact, broadband services aren't regulated. Thus, we can set any standard for service of delivery. Our general plan has always stated each services are to be delivered underground, preserving the very first vision of the town: the views, the very special way of living here and enjoying our property values. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Ms. Troller. WOODWARD: We have another speaker. Larry Meyers. MEYERS: Chair, Commissioners. So without being too technical about all this, because you'll probably need the 30 years that I have to understand it, it can be regulated. It should be regulated. And where it gets regulated, the broadband portion of this, is right here. So I'm not going to go into how you do that. What I would encourage is massive amounts of research, which I'm sure you've probably already tried to do. It's really confusing because of the way they -- way the FCC has broken everything down into classes. There are considerations such as output, power limitations, requirements. All those things are all something that should be considered when we put this ordinance together. And with all due respect, I wouldn't even begin to think that the town staff has enough time in the day to focus on this one particular issue to understand it, which is why we should actually have an expert in this field that is representing the town, not the telecom industry. I think we attempted to do that. I'm not sure we actually achieved it over the past six months or so. And so my hope would be you come to your own self-understanding of the really TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 52 technical nature of this stuff. I spent my life in it, so there -- it's no mystery to me how complicated and broken down it is because it's just the way it is, and it becomes more complicated every day because there's a new service or an expanded service. I mean, if you go from 5G to 10G, you've added new things to be considered. So I would hope that we get some real serious research and some really serious advice from professionals, and especially not professionals who are representing the telecoms. They represent us, the town and the citizens by extension. Thank you. Appreciate it. DAPAAH: Larry, do you -- do you believe that this is something that we can take on as a town? I mean, do you know of any towns or cities that have successfully regulated or stopped the telecom industry from proceeding? MEYERS: It's not about stopping. There is no stopping. There is only regulating to the point that the municipality is capable of regulating to. And yes, Anthem is a perfect example just locally. There's plenty across the country that have done it, and they've all done it in the same fashion. It's -- the research is -- I don't want to -- it's sort of analogous to when we were doing the detox -- residential detox. There's -- the government's regulations are convoluted because they made addicts into disabled people, and then disabled people have certain privileges and protections that other people don't have. So in order to create rules and regulations to fit within the boundaries of what you want your town to be, I think this is probably as close to that as you can possibly get. But like I said, the power -- the output -- antenna power outputs for these various antennas -- and we're not talking about the cell towers because that's a different class. DAPAAH: Okay. MEYERS: That's going to happen. And you can pull your phone out right now and pull 5G. There -- it's -- that's why using the term 5G is a -- it's sort of like when we use the term sober homes. It was not correct -- it's not really correct. So knowing all of that stuff is really important for you guys and for the council people and for the staff, but let's face it, they're working on this much stuff every day. This is a -- this is something where somebody actually put -- it's a full-time job, really, to -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 52 DAPAAH: Right. Right. MEYERS: -- to figure it out. And I think that there are people to be hired, but there are people on the telecom side who want their way, which is not really what we should be considering. We should be considering -- DAPAAH: Well, we couldn't -- we couldn't stop them. I mean, I'm seeing this stuff -- these towers up as far as Pinetop. It's -- MEYERS: No, no, no, it's not about stopping. DAPAAH: It's -- MEYERS: And we're not talking about cell -- like the tall -- you're talking the tall cell towers? DAPAAH: Talking about the 5G, you know, towers that they're installing everywhere. MEYERS: No, these are -- we're talking about broadband, which is underground -- which is fiber connected to small wave. DAPAAH: Okay. MEYERS: The small wave -- well, I'm trying to think where I -- where the closest one I see is -- GRAY: ADERO? MEYERS: Yeah, there's one at ADERO already. So you just -- you have to limit where they can be and what their strength -- it's really -- it's really about how strong of an output the power is is really where the regulation comes in because that's the -- where everybody makes their medical claim, the -- where it's harmful. It's about the power. I could tell you right now, if you want to be damaged, go hug a tower because you're putting yourself next to the antenna that's putting out that power. And I can only give you the one example. When I first started in the television industry, we transmitted our signals with the big, giant C-band dishes. They used to rope them off with caution tape and say don't stand over in this area because the spill from the power of those things was not good for you. So that's another analogy. That's the only example I can give you, the proximity that a human is to the -- to the antenna and the power of the output of the antenna. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 52 And that's as deep as I want to get with you guys because I could stand here all night and answer questions. But experts are divided into two. Telecoms want them everywhere. Cities want them only where they are absolutely necessary and to preserve the character of the neighborhood and the town. And so that's where I stand on it. Thanks very much. I appreciate the question. DAPAAH: Thank you. GRAY: So as good as that exchange was, folks, in point of order, we're going to draft -- we're going to route all communications that are out of protocol through the Chair, please. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I want to help clarify one -- a bunch of things, but I'll start with one simple one, and that's the term 5G. 5G, to me, is very similar to a basket of fruit. A basket of apples and a basket of oranges. It's all fruit, hence 5G. But the apples are actually under -- it's Title I, not Type 1. Not to correct you, but when you look at the TCA, they're clear that they have Title I, Title II. Title I is the broadband. And it kind of has it in reverse when I think about it because I would think that the cellular component, which is Title II, would have been first. Title II is absolutely regulated. It's about cellular communication with phones. There's nothing that we can do to regulate it. It's prohibited. But Title I is unregulated. That's the one that we can establish distances, much like sober homes. We can establish outputs. We can establish insurance. We can establish criteria for measurement and proximity to one another. So keeping Title I and Title II separate, the telecom industry has done a great job of convoluting 5G. 5G is two components, apples and oranges. Remember that Title -- and I'll get this screwed up if I don't look at it. Title I is broadband. That's the one that we can address. Title II is cellular, and we're not interested in addressing it because it's pointless. We can't address it. We don't want to address it. You've got 5G today. You don't need more. Broadband is what we want to do to make sure that we protect the public from the radio frequencies. And Mr. Meyers talked about the intensity. It's decibel milliwatts. It isn't the input TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 52 power. It isn't the 120 or 240. It's the output power. So we've got to keep this in as simple terms as we can so it doesn't get convoluted again. So that's where I'll start and stop for tonight. Thank you. GRAY: And what is that that -- that is the most concise explanation of that -- this that I've heard so far. WATTS: Apples and oranges? GRAY: Well, that, too. John, what are your thoughts on Title I versus II and the preemption language that was clearly written in favor of the industry at the state level? WESLEY: Chairman, this is very helpful this evening to bring focus to, you know, where we really need to concentrate our efforts. It's been a little bit confusing as we've talked about different things and people have thrown around terminologies maybe inconsistently in the past, so understanding that the emphasis is on the Title I broadband and how we can regulate those gives us a good, clear direction. As Mr. Meyers just pointed out, our knowledge in these areas is somewhat limited. We are learning as we go here. And so, you know, what are the options and opportunities? I don't know. We'll have to go from here and go out and learn a little more about it and come back with what those options might be. WATTS: John, my suggestion would be that we start with a definition of broadband, you know, Title I, X, Title II, X, here's the definitions, and then we -- clearly, we're not going to touch Title II, cell phones, so we can eliminate that component of the discussion and, hence, debate. But Title I, when we say broadband -- and it's really pretty clear, when you look at it in the TCA '96 and 2022, that it is unregulated. And unless something has changed in the last year -- and granted, I didn't go to '23, but it is clear in '96 that it's unregulated, so we can do pretty much anything we want within reason. And again, we don't want to prohibit it, but we want to manage it on an output side and a proximity and public interest, property values, all of those things that are a subset of how do we control it, much like sober living homes. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 52 WESLEY: Yes. It's about the needs on the one hand versus the impacts on the other and trying to see what's appropriate for the community. WATTS: Yeah, but I don't think that -- I think we have to emphasize to the public when they hear 5G, fear is set in that we're going to challenge their gaming, we're going to challenge their connectivity, and I think we need to be clear that we're not touching that. That has -- we have nothing to do -- no interest in doing anything with it. But we want to manage things that could potentially be detrimental. How detrimental? That's where the expert comes in because they have the knowledge. And to answer a question that Commissioner Dapaah asked, are there other cities that have done it? There's a plethora. California's one of the leading places that has instituted constraints so that they can manage the process and the consequences of those processes. So there's a lot of them across the country. I'm not an expert at it. I don't believe we got anybody on staff that is an expert at it. I think that it is way past any of our capabilities, but that doesn't mean it's not doable. GRAY: Commissioner? SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah, I think -- I don't think we have a professional, but maybe we have a semi-professional in our -- in our audience out there. Larry Meyers maybe would be willing to do some pro bono work because he's offered to do it before, so maybe Larry Meyers could be our semi-pro and go to work for us. GRAY: I think Lori's your subject matter expert. [CROSS TALK] GRAY: So Commissioner Watts, providing definition of Title I versus Title II and the bifurcation of what 5G actually is, and then potentially identifying a frequency threshold that separates the two as well? WATTS: Each of the -- each of the broadband providers is issued a specific frequency, a band. So they vary. They're -- they start it -- and this is counterintuitive. Like an 85- decibel limit, and then they go higher, which makes it more problematic. GRAY: Potent? WATTS: Yeah, potent's a good word. So yes, you could do that as well. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 52 GRAY: So -- and I, by no means, am a subject matter expert here, but based on some of the information that Ms. Troller had compiled, it seemed that 85 dBm was kind of the threshold where you broached into that -- into that broadband -- into those broadband frequencies. So if we could establish that or something along those lines as fact, then we develop safe zone criteria off of that threshold and up, and we leave everything below that alone. WATTS: Kind -- GRAY: That's in the -- let me finish that. So that's in the public right-of-way that's affected by preemption, and then we look at a completely different set of standards for private property. WATTS: I think that's a good starting point, but I also think that it's not that finite. We're not talking about the input power. We're talking about the output power of the DC device, so we want to be able to manage and/or limit that through some sort of a process. You can't do it as a fuse on the input power, so 120, 240, you can't do it there on the disconnect side, but you can do it on the output side because every DC device has some sort of rectification, step-down transformers, et cetera. And so you've got this output that has millivolts, and that's what we end up dealing with. That's what drives this whole process. And we could stipulate what the maximum output is, and then we have to have a means of validating through the application process and then measurement. Annually, we're going to measure something, we're going to -- somehow, we're going to have to craft that part of the applications process, and then, again, back to things like insurance and distances and so on. GRAY: So are you -- I'm trying to extrapolate this, but if you -- so then are you saying that a 100-decibel frequency -- I don't know if that even goes together. If a provider is assigned 85 dBm, they can crank that dial up, right, depending on utilization? So it's not so much -- I'm thinking the threshold is the frequency. You're thinking it's the output. WATTS: Well, the output -- the output is the -- the frequency is the output. And I don't want to get saddled to 85 decibel milliwatts. I don't want to do that. There is a frequency band that we'd have to establish that would be applicable to all providers, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 52 and we'd have to have the conversation where we have some sort of a limiting device of the output. So what happens is if there isn't closer proximity between towers, then you have to increase the output of the device so you can jump from tower to tower and hand off that signal. So if you keep the -- it's a Catch-22. If you have limited power, then you have to have the towers closer. That's the beauty of having it underground and having fiberoptics, for instance. So that kind of is a solution for proliferation of multiple towers. So if we talk in generalities about frequencies as opposed to the specifics of the 85 decibels, then you really want to be careful about that. That help? GRAY: No. WATTS: Okay. DAPAAH: Chairman Gray, is it possible that we request for an expert to speak to us on this matter? We certainly lack the knowledge on this. I definitely have homework to do on it. But John, is there -- do we have the resources for that, someone that can -- someone that is well-versed in this to help clarify -- we don't want to be guessing and making -- WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner, sorry I'm not on staff. We -- again, as we're clarifying more and more of what we're looking for, we'd have to go out and look and see -- in addition to the folks already named here in the audience who might be experts who could come and help us understand this area and how we could best regulate it. DAPAAH: Well, I'm not sure if Larry's an expert either. MEYERS: No, I'm not. I don't put myself out there as an expert -- DAPAAH: Yeah. MEYERS: -- but I certainly have an understanding of it. Commissioner Watts definitely does, though. WATTS: I think you got to be careful because the expert that you need has to understand land use. They have to understand zoning. They have to understand a lot of things that are ancillary to not only the 5G and that nuance that it projects what the consequences of the broadband are. So you've got multiple components. That's why TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 52 you need somebody that specializes in 5G specifically for broadband, and they have to be an advocate for the town benefit, not for the telecom industry benefit. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes. Thank you, Chair. And I have not done as much research as Commissioner Watts has, but two things that come to mind. One is -- WATTS: Copy that. COREY: -- I tried to get 5G Internet at home. You know, the -- AT&T, Verizon have them. You get this box and you get the Internet, but I don't have the service of 5G at home. Is this the same 5G that we're talking about? WATTS: No. COREY: This is the cellular 5G, so that's different. Okay. GRAY: Well, no, I think we are talk -- I'm with him. That was my understanding because I have the same -- I've got the Verizon box at home. I can't get anything out of it other than really, really bad service because the 5G frequency is not available to me. COREY: Same here. WATTS: Are you sure that's not a repeater? GRAY: I don't know what it is. A little box like that. WATTS: Okay. COREY: I think it's a 5G broadband Internet receiver. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It is. GRAY: Yeah. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It is. COREY: Okay. WATTS: But is it fiberoptics? MEYER: Can I -- can I give you just -- WATTS: Hold on. MEYER: -- two sentences? GRAY: Come up. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 52 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible)? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). GRAY: Doesn't work. COREY: The same here. MEYER: Two more, maybe three. So picture the town completely connected with fiberoptic underground. Okay? So the idea of the power of the antenna, which is the detrimental portion of the whole topic health-wise. Okay? So lower the power of the antenna, and you have to put more of them up. Then you have to put one in your front yard, so to speak. COREY: Okay. MEYER: I made that joke today because T-Mobile was having bad service at my house. If you take fiberoptic strung through the town, then you're not jumping tower to tower. You're jumping tower to fiber to tower. Less towers, same signal, lower power because you're only using the area where you're putting the antenna. And so that's really, in a -- kind of a layman term, the simple concept that you're trying to achieve while you're mixing all your land use and your other ordinances, and then you don't have one in your front yard because you're jump -- you're on the fiber. Your broadband is on the fiber, which is -- I made a suggestion while we're ripping our streets up, why don't we make a deal with Cox, and instead of them -- having them have to carve up newly-paved streets to lay the conduit for the fiber in town, why don't we tell them we're going to pave over -- you don't need to pave. We'll rip them up, you lay it in, we'll pave it over. You have no cost, and we accelerate our process. But that's really the -- the concept is not jumping tower to tower. Signal going out. Want to get over here? Underground over to here. And that's simple lay terms, but it -- COREY: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Challenge it. WATTS: I don't think I completely agree. I think -- and I don't agree -- I don't disagree TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 52 with your analogy because I agree with the tower to tower and the proximity, but the devices that they've got in front of their house, unless they have a current -- unless they have current fiberoptics feeding those devices, much like Anthem has -- Anthem has a device that is a broad -- it is not really broadband. It's a cellular connection by way of a fiberoptics, so they don't have to have so many transmission towers for cellular use, not necessarily for broadband. So I don't know what their devices are, but specific is if we had fiberoptics, we could eliminate the tower -- or minimize the towers, put a demarcation point in front of your house and one of these conversion boxes to get you in -- like the old-style indoor router. We could do that. That would be the most reasonable thing to do, particularly in consistency with the general plan and the strategic plan and everything it suggests, if not specifically states, that we ought have all of our utilities underground. So the -- but the broadband really isn't here yet. And as soon as we open Pandora's box so that we can have an application for broadband, are we going to have -- what we're trying to do is avoid a proliferation of all these towers everywhere. And if we control the output, we're going to have more towers. If we boost the output, we'll have less. But the consequences of boosting is that there is a radiation effect. Much like on the front of a microwave, you have Faraday screen to protect yourself. What we're trying to do here, I think, is to save ourselves from irradiating ourselves because there's proven data, whether it's in Europe or whether it's here -- even the -- I think it's the FHA and Disability Act has specifications for irradiation and how close you can be. So all of those things come back into play with a consultant that is versed in all of it. And I'm stumbling through a lot of this, but I know there are consequences if we don't do something to protect ourselves both from a health standpoint, a property value standpoint, and just a flat ugliness standpoint. COREY: So my second point -- okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Sorry. COREY: Thank you. My second point is we've all been to the Avenue of the Fountains when we have the art shows and whatnot. If you ever tried to purchase something, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 40 of 52 sometimes you see they have to keep swiping your card or tapping your card because they can't connect. I've seen many artists that they just -- they say there's too many people here, there's not enough service for these devices to connect. So in relation to what Larry and you were saying where if it's along the street, it's connected, I get that for homes, but what about for the wireless services and the wireless technology? And it can go as far as what about autonomous driving, which uses a lot of this technology? If we don't have that, are we going to be able to enable that kind of driving around here? WATTS: Personally, I think your point is well taken. The broadband concept handles massive amounts of data as opposed to a limited amount of data that cellular handles. That's why there's a differentiation between the two. And right now, we're connecting by way of cellular through those hand terminals, and you do get an overload because you can only manage so much through a particular broadband -- through a particular bandwidth, so we're stuck. And again, I'm going to defer back to some expert that has his arms around all of this so that they can do the best thing for the benefit of the town, the residents, and not the telecom industry. Final thought. And I don't want to sound like I want to prohibit broadband or the telecom industry. That's not it at all. I want to manage it. Manage it, control it, make sure that we're doing the best that we can do for everybody and not just the telecom industry. They'll make money regardless. And we're not going to screw around with the cellular aspect of it. That's a done deal. We can't touch that. But the broadband we can, so we should. COREY: Thank you. And just on that note, the 5G Internet that we were talking about that some of us have and some of us don't, I mean, my Cox bill is 100 something a month, and I think that device is, like, $25 a month if I tap it into my cellphone plan, so I -- GRAY: Because it doesn't work. COREY: Because it doesn't work. So you know, that would be something good if we could provide that. That's it. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 41 of 52 GRAY: Come up, Lori. TROLLER: Just to address the cost -- well, there's a lot -- I'm dying here. On the cost, I know there's a lot of people that have a Cox bill. A friend of mine called me up, said the Cox bill is 120 something dollars a month, but that's their phone, cell, and Internet. I have friends in Anthem. Phone, cell, and Internet on Cox fiber-delivered, I think it was $70 a month. So why are -- why is Fountain Hills paying for the Cox service that we have? And some of that is on fiber underground. John gave you a map, and you can see that. So some are receiving those services. It's not installed yet. So it's just like a sewer system. If we were to have a sewer system installed in town, as taxpayers, we pay that bond up front until that installation is paid for, so on our bill, we would -- on our taxes, we would always see that. So we're seeing that on our Cox bills right now because they're building out that infrastructure and we're paying for the installation. But once Cox gets that fully installed here like they are in Anthem, those prices come down. So we're paying for the infrastructure build. What T-Mobile is doing -- now, this is industry against industry. Now you're in -- now you're in big boy territory with competition. What do they want to do to get customers? They're going to undersell right now. They're going to say, hey, you take this box for 25 bucks, you got 5G, right? So now, as a consumer in your home, you have two choices. You got the $125 bill or you got this $50 bill with this -- the box. But what that box does is then it allows Verizon to say, oh, we have a need, and it's kind of a false need because it's a competition going on right now. So once everybody gets their systems in and built, then the prices are going to even out. And that's nothing we can see right now or won't see for a few years. But I will tell you in Anthem, the full Cox service, that's fiber-delivered, and the way that's delivered is -- if you guys remember your Cox box that was on the house, that cable that came up the driveway and hooked into the box on the side of the house? That's how fiber Internet -- broadband will be delivered, those boxes. I have a picture of some of those. I know some of the ones -- the modules that they're using over in Anthem if you guys want the specs on those. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 42 of 52 So like Larry was saying, you can eliminate the tower to tower. You've got fiber right up to a box. And the -- there's lots about -- when you're using airwaves, you get a dust storm in there, you lose connectivity. Your service is going to go down. That's why they do not -- emergency services won't use this. Emergency uses will not use broadband tower connections because they walk up to a building that's on fire, that smoke will cut the signal. They won't be able to talk from the front of the building to the back. They don't use it. It's -- they will always rely on the system they have. So the same thing is going to happen to us. When we get a monsoon or something, you're going to lose your signal. In Mahina, those guys didn't have signal. There was a lot of things shut off. That's (indiscernible). But we will -- in big storms and stuff like that, if we have this fiber underground, we're good. We're golden. Scottsdale will be out. Mesa will be out, Gilbert out. They'll all -- their services won't be up and running. So going underground is a -- is a faster thing for those who are gaming, that millisecond. It's just a better delivery. And you had asked about the prohibition, I guess. There are some counties that have done it. I wouldn't -- as a town, you have to sit and decide whether you provide these services for the residents. So would somebody want to move to Fountain Hills knowing we don't have broadband? They might pick a different place because they want to work from home and have broadband. So you either choose to have that service, like we have trash service, we have electrical service. WATTS: We have to have a point of demarcation (indiscernible) house (indiscernible) house -- TROLLER: It's a service, and as a town, you would consider that. But how you bring it in with this -- WATTS: -- or your business. TROLLER: -- particular product, we do have a choice. So it's not regulated. It's just like the trash service. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). TROLLER: We used to have multiple trucks or multiple services providers, and we TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 43 of 52 brought it down to one. And that's not what's going to happen. WATTS: That's the difference. TROLLER: You can't really discriminate -- they call that discrimination -- with broadband services, so -- WATTS: So you just did something that I suggest you don't do. And when you talk about 5G, you've got to be specific about talking 5G cellular, 5G broadband. TROLLER: Did I say 5G? That's my own -- WATTS: You said 5G generic, and that -- TROLLER: That's my rule. I -- WATTS: -- and that's the problem because we get apples and oranges mixed up again. And so while I've simplified it saying apples and oranges, 5G -- saying that is incorrect. TROLLER: Correct. And that's fair because -- WATTS: So it's 5G -- we're not -- there's no disruption in the 5G cellular. The management of the 5G broadband is what we want to do. And today, we've got 5G cellular, and how you get it to your house can be the router through T-Mobile and its $25 box, it can be hardwired. There's a variety of ways to receive it. We want to manage the future broadband. TROLLER: Broadband? WATTS: 5G broadband. So -- TROLLER: And so people understand that there is 4G, right, and this is 5G. 5G doesn't replace 4G. It's -- 5G is a protocol that needs the 4G protocol also. So when I say protocol, let's just think languages. We're speaking English. I'm not speaking Chinese. We can understand each other right now. So if your phone is a 4G phone and those towers are 4G, so -- but in order to have any 5G cellular communication, the 4G has to exist. So the reason I'm saying that is the amount of emissions that we have right now in the town, if you could see what's coming out of the towers, we're going to add to that. And then also, if you go with a tower configuration, and we're talking about 5G technology, which is already becoming dated, and they switch it to 10, now those signals are even -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 44 of 52 technologically, those signals are weaker and smaller, and they have to be closer to our heads, and they -- and those towers have to get closer. So if we do an infrastructure of 5G broadband towers and they want to switch to 10 -- and there's nothing stopping that. We can't do -- we can't stop that -- they stick another tower in between because now the distance has to -- and when you think about towers, kind of think of it generically. When you're talking to someone, you -- when we're speaking to each other, we normally stand three feet apart. If I'm standing ten feet apart, I have to speak louder. I have to put more energy out. And that's what these towers do. If you separate them farther apart, they're emitting farther -- or harder. So that's why telecommunication companies love to keep these things close, because they want their service up. They don't want to be known for bad service. They don't want to have dropped calls. They don't want to have you sitting at home and your computer is blipping on you. They -- you -- as a customer, you know what that is. You want that full on all the time. So what are they going to do? They're going to double up because it's their business and their stockholders are pushing things. So there's a lot of -- there's so much to this. WATTS: One last question, maybe. 5G stands for what? TROLLER: Fifth generation. WATTS: Exactly. Fifth generation. So what are generations? Much like Windows or Apple, generation is generation. It's just a new technology. It's a new software program. It's an enhancement. It's more powerful. It's whatever it is. But it's only five -- it's fifth generation, so going to the sixth generation, et cetera. And the point of that is that it's still 5G cellular, and they've just improved the technology to get you more cheaper through the nature of competitiveness. So scaring people with 5G, making sure we say 5G cellular, 5G broadband, I think, is really important. Those are the two leading components of any document that we end up with, so we're on the same page from a definition standpoint. TROLLER: That was a -- it's a marketing -- I guess a thing with telecom industries. If they just say 5G, what they know is you're going to associate it with that 5G that's on your -- I TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 45 of 52 need that. And they want you to want you to need it. Whether you think you do or don't, the broadband services -- I guarantee you, none of us at our homes are going to be -- if you're doing 5G stuff, you're at the level of Elon and got 50,000 robots in a room, and they all need connectivity and be able to move. That's what broadband handles. So there's a lot to it. GRAY: Thank you, Lori. TROLLER: You're welcome. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: John's (indiscernible). DAPAAH: Well, Chairman Gray, this is going to be quite a challenge. From what I'm understanding so far, I'm not sure if broadband is ever going to come into play here in Fountain Hills with the hard dig that we have through this town. I'm sure -- you know, most homes in Fountain Hills don't have natural gas because of that. So now, we're talking something that we may never see in our time, if we'll even see it pick up because we've been -- you know, we were talking about even more development in town that could contribute to this, but that's all been -- Fountain Hills is not welcoming that, so I'm not sure where this is going to go. But I think, from the beginning, Chairman, we're going to need some expert advice on this and at least some clarification and understanding on it. This is a good start, though. WATTS: I'm not going to sound quite as dismal about the future. I think there's a way to get it done, but I think the issue is that we don't want it -- want a tower every 100 feet, 500 feet, maybe 1,000 feet. We want the proliferation of towers to be at the maximum distance with the best benefit. And how do you achieve that without compromising values and help? That I don't know. So I think we can get it done. I think the technology to pole optics underground today is pretty amazing. You know, years ago, we had to trench everything, and now we don't have to do things like that. So consideration -- and again, it's going to go back to the consultant that has this basket of tools, the knowledge that they've got. That's what we need to rely on. So I'm in agreement with you on that. GRAY: Commissioners, anything further? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 46 of 52 TROLLER: (Indiscernible)? GRAY: Sure. TROLLER: I've been in this space for over two years, and a lot of these nights just ran into the next morning. I've done a lot of research on this. To make you a little bit more comfortable, there are people out there that can help us. I mean, we aren't -- we aren't running in the dark. There's people around with a huge amount of flashlights and full rooms of light that we can -- we can easily talk to. So don't get -- don't get too worried about that. There are some wonderful people out there that can -- that can do this. And there's towns -- there's plenty of towns. Tennessee -- oh, where in Tennessee. There's two towns, and there is one town that looks exactly like Fountain Hills. It's kind of funny. When you go to the website, it's a copy of our website. It's the same colors, it's everything. Farragut -- DAPAAH: Gatlinburg. TROLLER: Farragut, Tennessee. DAPAAH: I think that's -- oh, is that what it is? Okay. TROLLER: Yeah. DAPAAH: I always want to say -- TROLLER: And they have the same population size as we do. Their ordinance is a blend. They have a tower and underground. They obviously are pushing the underground stuff. And when you can't get it underground because of certain demographics of the -- or geological situations, they'll put towers in to do that. So they have an ordinance that's pretty cool. Another really neat ordinance -- this is -- now, this is done very differently than most anybody. I happen to really like it because it's super clean. There's Davis, California, and what they've done is they've taken an ordinance, and they said if it's a tower -- we don't care what it's for. We don't care if it's for SRP. We don't care if it's a radio. We don't care if it's broadband or cellular. If it's cellular -- or I'm sorry. If it's -- if it's a tower, here's the ordinance. And then -- so the ordinance opens up, and then it says if you're this kind of tower, this kind of tower, and then it directs, then, what you can do. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 47 of 52 It's very clean. So what we have -- right now, we have -- we keep saying we're not touching the cellular piece. There -- that's a whole different ordinance we have. And most towns do that layout. They have special ordinance for this, special ordinance for this. The small wireless facility -- that's what they call this because, actually, the antenna is much smaller. It's 10-inch by 10-inch and not these four feet long by 10 inches wide. You will be able to see these. When you go drive down Scottsdale, you're going to say, yeah, hey, that's cellular, that's broadband. You're going to -- you'll know this by the end. But they -- their ordinance says if it's broadband, it goes underground, period. But it's a clean little ordinance. It's 20 pages. That's it. And our SWF ordinance, I think, right now is 120, 140, somewhere in there. Not the one that you've proposed, but the one that's standing right now. It's a big, long ordinance. So there is a lot of work that's gone before us that we can definitely take advantage of, and there's help out there. So it's not all that bleak. It's just the important thing is to realize there's a lot to know, and none of us here are of that specialty, and we can bring that specialty in and help us. That's it. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you. John, closing thoughts? Got it all? WESLEY: (Indiscernible). GRAY: So process from -- WESLEY: (Indiscernible). GRAY: -- process from here, John, then, is couple months of investigation just with some regular updates and then come back to a larger public venue? WESLEY: Yes, Chairman. I think there'll be some -- I'm sure I'll have some type of update for you next month based on whatever research we can get done between now and then, but that's probably all it will be at that point would be an update. It would probably take at least a couple months to have anything substantive to come back and really discuss in detail. GRAY: So in your opinion, I mean, do we -- do we have some of this latitude with the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 48 of 52 current state language in the broadband arena? WESLEY: Chairman, that's, you know, something I'm mulling over, you know, as you've been talking. The state legislation is about small cell in the right-of-way, and it doesn't really specify, to my knowledge, whether that is -- has anything to do with broadband or cellular. It's small cell. And so I'll have to see if that gives us any flexibility there or not in terms of that right-of-way. That's one of the things we'll be investigating. GRAY: Okay. So I think, you know, major takeaway is they're all health and safety, property value, setback-related at their core, right? WESLEY: Insurance type of stuff. GRAY: Insurance. WESLEY: There's a lot of them. If there's anything that I can share with you, please do let me know. Please do. GRAY: And balancing, right? It's one big balancing act of -- WESLEY: It is. GRAY: We're not -- we're not trying to keep something out. We're not trying to go overly restrictive to where -- you know, we could take this far enough to where we diminish property values the other way, right? So there's some happy medium in the middle here, so -- All right. Commissioners, anything further? I'm going to close this agenda item and move on to Number 7. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Do it. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster, I keep forgetting about you. DEMPSTER: No, I'm here. I'm listening. It's a lot. I agree with the suggestions of getting an expert and having clear definitions. I spent a lot of hours doing research and stuff, and it's very overwhelming, so if we could break it down. Just learning the Title I versus Title II was helpful. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner. All right. Let's go ahead and close Agenda Item Number 6 and move on to Number 7, Commission Discussion Amongst Ourselves. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 49 of 52 Commissioners? Anything Commissioner Dempster? Commissioner Watts? DEMPSTER: No. WATTS: I'm sorry. Is this open for discussion? It is? GRAY: Sure. WATTS: Okay. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: So I have a, basically, a statement to read. And this is in relation to the December 19th town council Call to the Public. "I just wanted to take a minute to go on record to express my frustrations with the comments made by Commissioner Schlossberg. Commissioner Schlossberg confirmed that he had not attended the December 11th P & Z meeting referencing rezoning detailed in Agenda Items 5 and 6, and therefore, I'm not sure how he could make the statement that it was four hours of craziness and that he actually was not sad that he was unable to attend, either in person or by conference call. "I'm really baffled by how simply opening a set of plans and immediately stating that I love this project and, without looking at anything else, can be taken seriously without considering, as the P & Z commissioners did, such issues as ensuring fire and life safety accessibility for emergencies is adequate; understanding the basis for increasing dwelling unit density by 30 percent in deference to current zoning ordinances; why allow increasing building height by 50 to 80 percent over current ordinances have been official; why even considering parking requirements that do not meet the Town of Fountain Hills' current ordinances; whether or not the Town of Fountain Hills' economic development department had enough time to consider the impact from a financial perspective; how the project fulfills the needs of the town based on current economic conditions as directed through the updated general and other plans. "What, if any, impact is there on local businesses? Did anyone representing the Town of Fountain Hills confirm that Target corporate actually supports the proposal plan and is committed to staying long-term if the project was to be approved? If so, where's the supporting evidence, if only in the way of a letter from Target? Maybe Commissioner TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 50 of 52 Schlossberg could share with the other P & Z commissioners the logic behind recommending that the Town simply ignore the recommendation of the P & Z commission and move forward with approving the project. The suggestion to ignore the recommendation of the P & Z commission is based on what? I spent eight hours prepping for that P & Z meeting, reviewing plans and documents in detail, reviewing -- visiting the site as well as meeting with the developer and the property owner's representative. I take exception to what I view as unfounded comments made by Commissioner and others. I steadfastly believe that all the commissioners present or on the conference call were genuine in asking thought-provoking questions in an effort to see if we could find a way to support the project. It is unfortunate that the motion to approve was made and seconded so quickly before the P & Z commissioners had the opportunity to formalize questions, obtain and review answers, and were, therefore, left with little option other than to deny to the council -- recommend to deny to the council. The P & Z commission reviewed this project, as we do all others, with the intent to understand and protect the interests of the town and its residents and make our final recommendations in accord with current ordinances, no more, no less." GRAY: Commissioners, any other -- DAPAAH: Chairman Gray, I'm a little perplexed about this letter we read. Who did this letter come from? WATTS: Me. DAPAAH: From you. Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioners, anything else? John, I think that in light of the last couple meetings, I think it would probably be beneficial for the Commission to entertain a working session on kind of the underpinnings of our -- of our duties here. We seem -- we seem to be migrating a little bit more towards how we feel instead of rooting ourselves in ordinances from time to time. So I don't know what your thoughts are on, you know, maybe a small working session TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 51 of 52 just to kind of reground ourselves in that because I agree with Commissioner Watts in a lot of respects. I thought that -- I thought that that was disingenuous, what happened, and kind of unbecoming with respect to some of the statements that were made about the Commission that night. So I'd like to level set it. I don't know if we could do that in an executive session or if that needs to be an open session, but -- WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioners, that's something we can explore. Jumping, maybe, a little bit ahead to Item 9 on the agenda where I usually talk about upcoming meetings and what we anticipate, at this point, we don't have anything specific for your February meeting, and so if you'd like, we can explore the opportunity to use that meeting for such an item. GRAY: Okay. And then -- and then maybe, also, you know, some -- just some coaching on, you know, what are the options coming out of a scenario like that for a commission. Maybe we could discuss that in February as well. WESLEY: We can see. I'll have to talk with, again, the town clerk and the town attorney about what the protocols are for something like that and what we may -- what would be the appropriate venue and approach, in work session, executive session, so forth. But we'll look at that and get back with you as far as what we determine to be the best approach. GRAY: Okay. Commissioner? WATTS: Yeah. John, I said my piece. I took exception to what happened. I don't want to make this a public event. Is there a way we can do this so we can all be on the same page and, to Commissioner Gray's point, level set so we don't talk out of order representing the P & Z to the town council, town council people don't come? Because we've had to go both ways, and there's been problems, and I'd like to see those problems leveled once and for all, but I don't know that -- I hope it's not in a public session because I said my piece, and from that perspective, I'm done with it, and I don't want to make it -- but I do want a level set for everybody. WESLEY: Well, I'll have to check because state statute sets forth what can be discussed TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 8, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 52 of 52 in executive session -- WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: -- and whether or not this is what I'm -- you know, I'll have to talk to attorneys. WATTS: Okay. Thanks. GRAY: Okay. I guess Number 8, then. We'll jump in between there. Summary Commission Requests from John? WESLEY: Wireless broadband, Title I, 5G. And I'm trying to get the words right here. That's the direction of staff, it sounds like. GRAY: Very good. All right. We are adjourned. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you.