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HomeMy WebLinkAbout240513 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 67 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes May 13, 2024 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 67 GRAY: All right. Let's call this meeting to order. This is the May 13th version of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission. If you would, please, stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. GRAY: Thank you. All right. We're going to kind of speed things along. So Paula, all commissioners are present here on the dais this evening. We'll move on to Agenda Item 3, Call to the Public. Do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Agenda Item 4, Consideration and Possible Action on the April 8th, '24 regular meeting minutes. Commissioners, any discussion or a motion, please? Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: I'll make a motion to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission April 8th, 2024. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I'd ask that we look at the date on those minutes. I think they're February 12th. DEMPSTER: February 12th. WOODWARD: Sorry. We won't be approving those. WATTS: Yeah, that's my point. WOODWARD: I didn't notice that myself. Thank you. WATTS: It happened twice. It happened once before as well, so -- WOODWARD: Thank you, Vice Chair. WATTS: Yeah. I'm sorry. WOODWARD: Appreciate that. WATTS: Sorry. GRAY: Why you got to call Paula out like that? WATTS: I didn't want to do that. GRAY: Okay. So -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 67 WOODWARD: In the future, if you notice that prior to a meeting, I would welcome an email so I could change it and send it out. Thank you. GRAY: And there's Paula taking you to school. WATTS: Yeah, I got spanked. I get it. GRAY: All right. So we will bypass Agenda Item 4 and pick that up in the June session. Agenda Item 5, Public Hearing to Review and Consider Ordinance 24-10 regarding patio covers in front and street side yards. Mr. Wesley. WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioners. Welcome this evening. Got a little text amendment here that came to our attention over a month ago to get your consideration and recommendation on. As you know, the zoning ordinance sets setback standards and lot coverage requirements for each zoning district. In most districts, there is a requirement that buildings be set back to maintain, you know, good sight visibility and openness along the streets, but we had a request to consider amendment to the code that would allow patio covers to encroach into street and -- front and street side yards. So this resulted in a couple of places where we're proposing to make some modifications. One is to add two new definitions to the ordinance. One to define what a patio is, and then also define what a patio cover is so we know what we're regulating later on in the ordinance. And then Section 5.06(d) of the zoning ordinance sets out various exceptions or allowances for encroachment into yards. We're proposing to add a new Number 4 to that particular section, and I'll go through the different requirements or standards that are within that. The first one is that the patio cover can encroach up to half the setback distance or up to 12.5 feet into that front or street side yard. So the areas circled there in the red are what those standards are. When I was drafting this, I think I must have glanced on the rear yard because I saw those 25s, and that's why I put the 12 and a half in there. So it's half -- up to 12 and a half, but actually, the fronts and sides are 20s until you get to the 40s and 60s up top. So the 12 and a half is maybe not necessary, or maybe it could be 15 feet or some other numbers. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 67 But we're wanting to allow the encroachment, but on those larger lots, it didn't really make sense to allow patio covers that got too big out into those front yards, so we didn't want to go half of 40 feet or half of 60 feet. That would be a pretty big patio cover beyond those side yards. So anyway, have that currently recommended to ten, but no -- half -- up to 12 and a half feet. But again, depending on your discussion, that could change a little bit. We have a maximum height of 12 feet. That's the same height allowance we have in the residential districts for a small accessory structure, so I'd keep that the same. And then the other part is how much of a post can you have or wall, basically, can you be creating to hold up the cover. Again, we're talking about something that's out into the street sides of a house where we're wanting to maintain some visibility along the street, somebody pulling out of their driveway being able to see oncoming traffic or kids on the sidewalk or whatever, so you don't want to much structure there. So what we put in was you can't -- the structure holding up the roof can't be more than 20 percent of the width of that side of the -- of the patio. So that can take several forms here, as you can see by these various drawings, of how wide they might be spaced out that might be. We wanted to leave flexibility for design that would fit a particular house and the architecture of that house. We didn't want to get to prescriptive. And we think this will work with this 20 percent width. Still leave enough open space between the column so you can see. So those are the basic components of the code going back. There is one last piece at the end about what you can't do. You can't use these patio covers as a carport or a garage or to store a bunch of junk. Any questions about this? GRAY: Commissioners? Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Hi, John. Thank you. This makes sense, but I did want to ask about patio covers may be detached, so what would that look like? Because I'm concerned about building a structure in front of the house that's separate. So can you speak to that, please? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 67 WESLEY: Yes, Chair, Commissioner Dempster. So really, in some cases, the -- there may be a desire or a need, based on how far back the house is from the property line and where the patio is going to be located, that it might not actually connect to the house, and so that's why we worded it that way. So it doesn't necessarily have to connect to the house. If you think that's an issue, that could easily be changed so it does require it to be connected to the house. DEMPSTER: Well, would that, then, become a separate structure? So would it fall into a different ordinance, meaning different -- WESLEY: That's what -- it'd still be covered here. DEMPSTER: So but then -- but a separate structure would have to meet our setback -- our current setback numbers versus these amended numbers for a specific patio. So what makes it a patio, then? It's just saying a surfaced area. So if someone puts, like, pavers out to put a table, that would be not attached -- WESLEY: Right. DEMPSTER: -- and out front -- WESLEY: Right. And so that -- DEMPSTER: -- to accommodate that. I'm trying to think of any unintended -- WESLEY: Sure. Chair, Commissioner Dempster, so this is worded so that if you do have that situation where that patio is totally detached away from the house that you could still cover it, even with this encroachment. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: John, Section 1(a) talks about an enclosed patio, and along the lines of what Commissioner Dempster was talking about, would that really now be a patio if it was enclosed, and does it -- it appears to conflict with Section 2.4 where patios in the front and side yards may not be enclosed, so it sounds contradictory to me. WESLEY: Chair, Vice Chair, if I've got your question, so if we look at this definition here, this is a more general definition for any patio anywhere around the house, so in the rear yard, side yard, front yard, wherever it may be, and so those can certainly be enclosed, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 67 but in order to encroach into the front of street side yard, it would have to remain open except for the column supporting the roof. That's what this one tells us. WATTS: It just sounded confusing when I was reading it and trying to figure it out. Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Mr. Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Can you give us a little more color on the history of what brought this about? WESLEY: Mr. Schlum (ph.) may want to come up and speak to that. I think he turned in a speaker card. So if you don't mind, Chair, we can go to that. GRAY: Yeah. And then I've got a couple I want to talk with you as well. SCHLUM: Chairmen, Commissioners, staff, thanks for serving and for hearing this item. So we wanted to cover our patio. We did an addition on our house, so we did not have any room for a patio cover. We have a patio, but it's in the sun. We have two feet left, which would look goofy. It wouldn't do anything. So we came before the Board of Adjustment and said, hey, can we get a variance? I kind of knew it wasn't going to pass because it was a self-imposed hardship because we put the new patio out in the front, and now it was within the setback for a patio cover or any type of structure, I guess. But we came up with a great plan, a nice rendering. Judy Bauer is representing our neighbors here. All of our neighbors were at the Board of Adjustment meeting. We kind of made it a party. I think most of the Board of Adjustment board liked the idea, but they could not find a reason -- I think John could attest to how they felt about it. They couldn't approve it based on what the rules are. So they thought maybe we could change the rules and look at that, not allow us a full addition to go out into the setback, but to allow a patio cover might be okay. So we started the process, and here we are. So that's -- that may be what's behind it. That's what I'm familiar with, anyway. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Thanks. So my next question would be is it a -- what's your required setback? SCHLUM: Ours is 20 feet. Our setback is 20 feet in our zoning district. And our patio is TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 67 probably 14 feet off the front of the house. So if we were to cover our entire patio, it would be more like the two feet that we have left plus 12 more feet for us, but, you know -- KOVACEVIC: So that would leave six feet of front yard between the edge of your patio and the lot line? SCHLUM: It would leave -- it's 20 now, plus there's quite a bit of kind of right-of-way before the street curb starts, so I'm not sure exactly how much, but it's at least ten feet. That's 20 feet -- KOVACEVIC: Um-hum. SCHLUM: -- and then the ten. But our house is already back, so that two feet -- right now -- I guess, to the setback, it's 22 feet from the front of our house right now, so if we were to go out 12 feet, there would be ten more feet left of setback. Kind of along the lines of how this is written. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Thanks. SCHLUM: Yeah. Thank you. GRAY: I got more bullets here than I ever thought I would talking about this topic, but just some clarifications. Why would we treat this any different than we do golf nets administratively? We bring those through a special use permit process. I kind of -- you know, in isolation, this is very benign, but I worry about the bigger picture of this extrapolating. Not that it will or it won't, but to me, this is a perfect candidate for if we're going to write it, let's write it up in a way and then put it through a special use permit process. WESLEY: Oh, Chair, we sure could do that. Whatever the Commission wants to recommend. You may recall on golf nets, we changed that a couple years ago so that we can approve them administratively under certain criteria, and it's only if they exceed that criteria that they do have to come through that special use permit process. GRAY: And then just for my own purposes, patio cover, a solid or open roof structure, so is that to say it has to be rigid, or are we -- when I first read this, I thought we're talking potentially about retractable awning systems and that sort of stuff. Is that in or TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 67 is that out in this definition? WESLEY: Chairman, I suppose a retractable could be part of it. Part of the challenge is what we're really concerned about are those posts that hold up the roof and having that permanent structure in the right-of-way. You can already do a projection into side yards for eaves and overhangs. So a patio -- a retractable one that doesn't have any posts would be okay up to five feet in the front? I can't remember the distance, but some distance already. So it's -- GRAY: It's a self-supporting -- WESLEY: Yes. GRAY: -- structure in this case? WESLEY: Yes. GRAY: How's this tie back to architectural guidelines? WESLEY: The -- Chapter 19 of the town code does not apply to single family. GRAY: Does that worry you? WESLEY: Not any more than any other house would. GRAY: In our language, we say a surfaced area. Does the definition of surfaced include, like, a decomposed granite or a stabilized DG? And the reason I ask is are we going to end up in a scenario where people start doing raised-bed gardening in their front yards? WESLEY: So Chairman, I'm not sure -- as long as the raised bed and the setback was under three and a half feet, I don't know why they couldn't be doing that today anyway. GRAY: I mean under a -- but under a building structure in order to do that. WESLEY: Oh. So it's, 4, outdoor lounging, dining, or other passive outdoor activities. I don't know if gardening -- GRAY: Recreational gardening? Okay. And then just 2 -- my original 2, we've got the height capped at 12 feet. I'd also like to see us consider some architectural constraint off of the primary structure. So I don't know if that's 18 inches or two feet or three feet below the peak of the front elevation. I just don't want to see a flat roof parapet at 12 feet be contiguous with a detached shade structure at 12 feet. I just think, architecturally, that's got some diminutive value potentially. Again, not maybe in this TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 67 case, but in another application of this. And then I get the intent of the language, and I think you were alluding to it, but I think there's maybe a little bit stronger wording as we talk about half of the setback. We ought to probably add in some wording that says, you know, 12 -- well, I was going to say 12 feet from the primary structure, or maybe it doesn't need to be 12 feet from the primary structure, but 15 feet from the primary structure, and then allow as kind of a secondary that you can encroach halfway into that setback. I just think the way it reads, you could make an argument that you could set this thing well out away from the front elevation of the house. And maybe that's the intent. Maybe I missed the underlying intent of this. But you could set this well away from the front of the house and post your four posts, you know, 12 feet -- 10 -- five feet from the property line, I guess, in some cases, right? WESLEY: Chair, the minimum should never be less than ten feet from the property line. GRAY: But 20 is our minimum in the table? WESLEY: Yes. GRAY: Okay. So ten. I guess what I'm asking is maybe there ought to be some ratio that keeps it tighter to the primary structure rather than allowing it to be far detached. But I think underlying it all, I just fear this is a slippery slope if we don't -- I don't want to do special use permits, but I think this is a case where if we're going to go down this path, we probably should put these through a special use permit. So Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I'm curious if we do that -- the same thing on pergolas because we've got pergolas that are detached that are on the -- right on the edge of the property line. Do we have the same type of an issue, or would this kind of cover that issue? WESLEY: Chair, Vice Chair, today, if they couldn't be in the required yards, they may be in front of the house if they've got enough room between the house and the setback or they're under -- well, that would still apply. You know, they wouldn't be in the front or street side yards today, those pergolas. And yes, this would basically cover a pergola- type structure also. WATTS: Yeah, I don't see much a difference between this and the way it's written at TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 67 what we allow today with the pergolas. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Well, I appreciate that you included here that the covered patios could not be used as a carport, garage, or storage, so that clarifies that. Also, I think it's clear when we say the total width of the structure cannot exceed 20 percent of the width of the side of the patio. So I think kind of having those regulations there cover making sure that it's not going to block any views is what I'm trying to say. But I do think, as you mentioned in here, you know, there used to be more front porch living back in the day, and I do like to have that element here because I think that that creates more of a sense of community, and I think we should make it a little bit easier for people to be able to put this type of seating area or area out in the front of their home so they could enjoy more of their property. And we know it gets really hot around here, so between trees and these kind of structures, I think that we should, you know, let people have a little more flexibility in being able to put these up. So if this clarifies that to make it easier for people, I think that this is heading in the right direction. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: My concern is that ten feet in -- with a 20-foot front yard, if the sidewalk is on that side of the street and runs up against the right-of-way, people will, by right, be able to build a patio up to ten feet of that sidewalk. That's three steps, which is just way too close. I appreciate Mr. Schlum's, you know, comment that he's got, you know, quite a bit of right-of-way between his -- the front of his lot line and the rest of civilization, but I would -- I'm inclined to support Chairman's comment that this should be done through special use permit and not blanket the entire town because I just think three steps from the sidewalk's too close. GRAY: Paula, do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: We had one that was from the applicant, Jay Schlum. GRAY: Mr. Schlum, you want another three minutes? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 67 SCHLUM: No, I'm good. Thank you, though. GRAY: Okay. SCHLUM: Unless you got a question. GRAY: Well, I'm inclined to let it through on the condition it goes through at least administrative review and probably special use permit. I don't think -- this is -- this scenario is unique, but it's -- well, it's unique. It's a custom scenario where the applicant has the support of the neighbors. I don't think that's going to prevail across the next one and the one after that. Then I think we need to build in some protections for adjacent stakeholders if we're going to go down this path. I do appreciate Commissioner Corey's position on it. I think that opening up the front yards and creating that place of engagement is probably quite valid, but I think the adjacent stakeholders need the opportunity to have skin in that. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I have the same basic opinion that Commissioner Corey has as well, opening it up, but the concern that I've got is if we required some sort of a pony wall because I can't imagine a patio that was just right on the street or right next to the sidewalk, but if you had -- and we've got a couple of other properties, and they generally are multi- family, that have a small pony wall that kind of enclose that area so you don't have traffic cutting through your patio. So should we look at it from that standpoint that you've got to provide some protection, some landscaping, something to insulate that from the right-of-way. WESLEY: So Chairman, Vice Chair, to go back to the first part of that, typically curb to the right-of-way line is someplace between ten to 12 feet, and so a sidewalk in there that's usually behind the curb of about four feet would leave you, you know, eight feet or so to the property line, then another ten feet to the structure that's built, and so you're talking, you know, closer to, you know, someplace between 15 to 20 feet from the sidewalk to get to wherever this patio is. And then you have the different grade issues that take place here. Not very often is the ground that flat between the two already. Then there's the idea, coming back a little bit to what Chairman Gray was talking about TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 67 in terms of the architectural compatibility and design, the homeowner is trying to accomplish what they want. Do we want to prescribe a pony wall in all cases or leave that up to the property owner to design it the way they want it to work? Maybe they want -- maybe they also are putting in a sidewalk connection directly from the street side sidewalk through their patio to their front door. WATTS: I think I'm thinking more of a corner lot where you've built this patio out in front and somebody's cutting diagonally across your lot right under your patio and out you go. So I guess that would be on the applicant to protect their own property, but it does seem to me that -- some deterrent to keep people from doing exactly that. Just a thought. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: I have a quick question. Is it automatic with the application that would require an inspection to check the property, and who would do that site visit to check for obstruction for traffic and that kind of thing? WESLEY: So Chair, Commissioner Dempster, we would need a building permit for it. And as part of that building permit review, how detailed would we get into that type of issue? Certainly, there would be some consideration of it because as stated here, we'd want to be careful that it isn't creating a sight obstruction. Would that be done from the aerial images we have available or going on site? That would depend upon the individual situation. There should only be inspections when it's constructed. That's maybe starting to get to late to address what you're after. DEMPSTER: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Yeah. John, does this only apply to residential? That seems like what everybody's talking about. We are only focused on residential areas. Would this apply to, like, commercial, perhaps? WESLEY: Chair, Commissioner Dapaah, that's a good question. The way it's worded, it's -- nowhere in here does it specifically say residential. That's certainly the intent. That's where patios usually occur, although some commercial, certainly multi-family- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 67 type developments can have outdoor areas, patios that this could happen in. DAPAAH: Yeah. I think I'm also leaning towards Chairman's process of a special use permit just to ensure that someone is not, you know, running full electrical, plumbing, drains, and things for this. Anyway -- GRAY: Commissioner? SCHLOSSBERG: So Chair, then your recommendation for the special use permit would involve -- what would the protocol be? So he would basically come back to us eventually on a case-by-case basis? WESLEY: So Chair, if I can help answer that question? So I would anticipate if that's the recommendation, that here in paragraph 4, you would probably add a lead-in phrase that says subject to approval of a special use permit, you can obtain this, and so then it would be a matter of somebody who wants to do one of these patio covers to apply for the special use permit as allowed in Section 2.04 of the zoning -- or 2.0 -- SCHLOSSBERG: Thank you. WESLEY: -- whichever one it is to -- GRAY: Yeah. So I don't know if somebody wants to make a motion as written, but if I was to do it, I would make it as written with a request just to look at a relationship between maximum height and the height of the primary structure. And I don't know what the appropriate recommendation there is, but no more than 90 percent or 80 percent of the height of the primary structure or do some sort of setback ratio just so that that stays in line architecturally. I just think that could get out of hand, especially in the older neighborhoods. And I'd want to see it treated the same way golf nets are. I really don't mind if this is treated -- well, I do mind if it's treated administratively because I want -- I want the neighbors to have the opportunity to weigh in, so I think full special use permit. I would have gone the route of the Board of Adjustment, too, if I was applying for it, but I've asked John how that works, and he told me no, too. So that would be the motion I would make. If somebody wants to make another motion that's different than that, I'm happy to layer those amendments over top, and we can TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 67 take those one by one or can bundle the whole thing up. So Commissioners, your call. Going once, twice. COREY: A clarification. So you're proposing that it is a SUP that would come to Planning and Zoning versus administrative approval? GRAY: Yes. Yeah. I want the public input of the adjacent neighbors. I don't think it has to be, John, the 300-foot ring. I think that's a little excessive, certainly. But I think the immediate adjacent -- I don't know if we carve that out or if that just makes it too complicated. Too complicated? WATTS: Yeah, I think you're going to make it too complicated because that 300-foot -- GRAY: Is going to catch them all? WATTS: Yeah. GRAY: I mean, I just don't want to catch too many. You see John's body language. It's 300-foot. WATTS: Yeah. I mean, we rarely agree, but that -- I mean, 300 feet, that's -- you're going to get caught in that. WESLEY: So again, just thinking out loud, Chairman, that again, we could add a provision here that says notices as -- of only abutting property owners is required, or again, add some language in here to clarify with a special use permit, that doesn't require notice of the same 300 feet. That may get confusing when somebody then -- oh, I've got to do the special use permit, and they go to the special use permit chapter and don't look back here. Adding an exception into the special use chapter is where I start to see the confusion really coming in, so -- GRAY: Yeah. I mean, I think it's unfortunate in this scenario that we would ask residents to do that mapping and those certified letters, but for sake of continuity, I think it is what it is. So Commissioner Corey? COREY: So just my last piece for clarification. So we're going to require the homeowner to come in to the P & Z meeting if they want to put up a pergola? WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner Corey, by what has been discussed, if we make the amendment here that says a special use permit is required to do this, then yes, they TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 67 would make that application for the special use permit. It would require them to do the citizen participation process and post the property -- COREY: Okay. WESLEY: -- and come here for a hearing and then Town Council for approval. COREY: So I hear -- I hear the concerns from my colleagues here. I just -- I have a concern that we're making that a little bit too restrictive for people. Maybe not everybody wants to come and approach the dais here just to put up a pergola. WATTS: Of course, they don't, but they want to do it in the front yard. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, that's the -- not all pergolas. Just if they violate the setback. COREY: If they're violating the setback. KOVACEVIC: Yeah. COREY: Okay. KOVACEVIC: If they're violating the setback, they should come in. DEMPSTER: Yeah, they're -- COREY: So not -- okay. And maybe that's what I'm missing here. So not every front yard pergola would be violating the setback. It's just if they're going to be within that -- within that range, then they would need the -- I see. DEMPSTER: Yeah. COREY: Okay. GRAY: Yeah. Because without it, you've got, arguably, reasonable separations from all of your adjacencies. COREY: Yes. GRAY: Neighbor might not like it, but -- COREY: Okay. GRAY: Those are the underlying rules that exist today, so if we're going to carve something out -- COREY: Yeah. GRAY: -- then you bought next to me, I want to put up a sunsail shade of whatever, lavender sails, you should have a skin -- you should have skin and say, no, I'm not okay TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 67 with that. Not to say that the Commission doesn't say, you know, pass it forward, but at least you should have -- we should afford you the opportunity, I think. COREY: And does that cost us anything to do those -- have those meetings with the residents, and is there -- is that any hardship on the Town to facilitate that? Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think the more we talk about this, the more I'm inclined to support the special use permit when you think about some of the views, some of the issues we had. So the terms that we proposed are fine with the addition of the applicant applying for that special use permit so we can review the particulars of a certain situation and that we don't have any of these underlying issues because I don't know that we're catching every one of them at this point. Maybe. GRAY: Thoughts on a waiver on the fee? Or that just needs to stay, straight line across, special use permits? WESLEY: Chair, that certainly is another option. Paula, I don't know if you remember what the fee is on a special use permit? WOODWARD: I do. So administrative use permits are $50. Special use permits are $2,000 plus public notice fees and mailing fees. GRAY: Okay. I'm changing my position. WESLEY: The level of review that would go into this type of application compared to other types of special use permits would probably not be as extensive, and so there could be some justification for creating a separate fee. That's not typically done in -- well, I guess we have maybe done it one other place where we've said that the application fee was a percentage of -- I think we did that with minor site plans, that the application fee was a percentage of the regular site plan application fee. So we could look at ten percent of the standard fee is what's required or something along that line, if you'd like. GRAY: Well, I think it should be treated the same way a golf net's treated, so whatever the fee structure is there is the fee structure here. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 67 WATTS: Yeah, I don't remember what that one is. It's certainly less than $2,000. It's in the hundreds. GRAY: You know what that is, Paul? WOODWARD: I'm looking. Were we taking golf notes as a AUP? GRAY: Yes. WOODWARD: A golf ball fence administrative review is $280. GRAY: That sounds reasonable to me. Yeah, that's close to the ten percent of the SUP fee. All right. Yeah. Okay. Anybody wants to make the motion straight as written? No? Okay. So I'll make the motion open to any amendments from the Commission. The motion is to forward a recommendation to approve on 24-10, patio covers in front and street side yards, with just a request to staff to look at a ratio of height in relation to the primary structure, to incorporate the special use permit practices and the fees to be commensurate with those of our golf ball net program or roughly ten percent of the special use permit fee in this case. WATTS: I have a question. Do you want to include the percentage relationship between the highest point in the adjoining residence to the maximum height? You talked about 80 percent of the height, so for 24 feet, you going to max it out at 20 feet? GRAY: No. No. WATTS: So you're not going to have a proviso in there to -- GRAY: No. My concern was that you've got a number of late '60s flat roof parapets at 11-6 and -- WATTS: Right. GRAY: -- we've got a provision to allow a 12-foot structure in front of it. That's my concern. WATTS: Okay. GRAY: So I think -- I think it's apex of the primary structure less something. Less ten percent is fine by me. WATTS: Well, with flat roofs, wouldn't you have equal to? Less than or equal to? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 67 GRAY: I'm not sure. Or the -- I'm just saying from the top -- whatever the highest point is. WATTS: Right. GRAY: Either the apex or the parapet. I'll leave that to your discretion in my motion. WESLEY: Okay. Chair, it seemed to me that you'd mostly be looking at that wall closest to where the patio cover is being built. They may have the high point of their roof 20 or 30 feet back, and that wouldn't necessarily make much sense, so -- GRAY: Yeah. I think the adjacent elevation. WESLEY: -- look at the -- at the wall elevation. GRAY: Yeah. WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: Okay. Okay. So we got special use permit at a ten percent fee. Height restriction to be ten percent lower than the nearest adjacent elevation. And was there one more thing? That's it? That's the motion. Verbatim will tell the story. KOVACEVIC: I'll second it. GRAY: All right. I won't repeat the motion. The motion is on the table. It's been seconded by Commissioner Kovacevic. Paula, let's do roll call. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 67 WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Chair Gray? GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven-zero. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. All right. Agenda Item 6, annual report on the implementation of the Fountain Hills General Plan. Mr. Tavassoli. TAVASSOLI: Thank you. Good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the commission and the public. As we have been doing in the past three years or since the General Plan has been amended, we've been coming before you with an annual report in regards to the implementation, progress, and/or status of the General Plan. Either John or myself has been doing that, primarily myself. And so we're coming to you right now looking back at the progress that was made in 2023 regarding the General Plan, and unlike the previous years, I'll be ending the presentation with some policy issues that have come up in our latest review of the -- of our implementation project with regards to some implementation actions that have not quite yet been initiated. So the purpose, as I mentioned, of this presentation is to comply with statutory legal requirement to come before the governing body, that being the Town Council, although having gone through the Planning & Zoning Commission first to present an annual report on implementation of the General Plan. And some more prefatory remarks here. This, of course, is in regards to the adoption of the 2022 General Plan, which was approved by Council in May of 2020 and then ratified by voters in November of the same year. It addresses eight General Plan elements within three overarching principles. More on that in a little bit. But the General Plan elements cover things such as housing, land use, circulation, water resources, and so on. And finally, the body -- the whole -- the crux of the report is primarily, as I mentioned, how we're doing as far as implementation is concerned. I already went over much of this, but the -- going down to the third bullet and sub- bullets, I guess you could say, the plan is organized according to -- and these are the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 67 three overarching principles. And I should add the word thriving in front of each of these, those principles being thriving neighborhoods, thriving environment, thriving economy. It identifies various character areas throughout the town, things such as -- or places such as the Towne Center, the primary and secondary gateways down south at various intersections along Shea Boulevard, number of commercial areas along the Shea corridor. Those are just a few examples of character areas that are covered in the General Plan. And it also establishes amendment procedures and requirements for the -- for the annual report. So at the end of the General Plan, which I don't imagine any of the commissioners having a copy in front of them right now, but there is an implementation strategy, and it covers just each element of the General Plan, and it provides steps to achieving the goals that are covered in each of the elements within the overarching principles. They're addressed mainly as action items, steps that are taken to achieve those goals. It includes priorities for each item, and it designates the lead departments for each implementation step. This is just a page taken out of the implementation strategy. And by the way, feel free to jump in. There's quite a bit of information to cover here, as you'll see coming up. But this is just a page taken out of the implementation strategy, but it references the goal in the far left column, although it doesn't state verbatim what that goal is. You'd have to refer back to the pertinent chapter of the General Plan. It references the policies, and it references the implementation actions, the lead departments that would be basically directing these actions. In this case, for example, there's a implementation action related to the -- related to connectivity access and mobility plan, otherwise known as the -- I can't think -- ATP. The transportation plan. The -- I heard John before, but I didn't quite catch what the -- WESLEY: Active. TAVASSOLI: Active. Thank you. Active Transportation Plan. And the anticipated time frame to initiate -- not complete but initiate those goals is short range in this case, and, you know, other potential funding sources and other entities that might be involved. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 67 And for each -- for each implementation action, there are anticipated time frames in which these actions are to be initiated. One is categorized as ongoing. These are -- these are actions that we strive to basically act upon on a daily basis. They're ongoing. In many -- you could describe them as aspirational, but these are day-to-day tasks and tasks that, collectively, we hope to accomplish. There are immediate actions that are to be initiated with -- no later than six months after the General Plan ratification. There are short-range actions to be initiated within the first four years of ratification; midrange, five to eight years; and long range, within ten years. And hopefully, at the end of ten years, we will have accomplished all these actions. So the annual report requirements, as you might have kind of gathered from reviewing the report in front of you, models itself after the -- basically, the statutory requirements spelled out in the state statute. That is to present you with a review of plan amendments process during the previous year; in this case, 2023. I can tell you there have been no amendments -- and again, we're talking about the General Plan, not the zoning ordinance. No amendments have been processed for the General Plan. I think, as I mention in the report, it's worthwhile to mention that Fountain Hills, as you all know, is very close to build-out. The most vastly undeveloped part of town is the state land piece in the far northeast corner. It's about 1,300 acres. If there's any likelihood that there -- a major General Plan amendment will come before you, it will likely pertain to that area. It is a rather large area. But I do want to stress nobody has come in in the past three, four years expressing any interest in developing that area, so we'll just have to stay tuned and see what happens now that -- although the zoning's in place, the original developer who was interested in reviewing -- in, excuse me, developing that area backed out quite a number of years ago. It also discusses the progress and status of each implementation action. It reviews some policy issues that have come up, and I will present you with these policy issues in the form of some goals that have not quite yet been initiated. And also, I will conclude with some recommendations for amendment. In fact, I'll just say that right now. We're not TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 67 going to recommend any amendments to the General Plan as written, but we do want to initiate a discussion about some of these action items as some of them have fallen outside their time frame for initiation. I do want to speak rather positively about some of the progress that we have made in terms of some of the action items listed. There's the Pumphouse Pilot Art Project which was approved earlier in the year, which is a changing exhibition out by the fountain. A number of sidewalk infill projects or, I should say, a number of sidewalks have been -- gaps have been completed last year. And the most recent number I heard is a little over 1,000 sidewalk -- 1,000 feet, rather, of sidewalk gaps have been filled in since last year, so going a little bit into 2024. Three new trails have been approved. Over -- we've received over $1,000 in grants that were awarded to us by the Arizona Office of Tourism as well as the neighboring tribal communities to assist us in our Economic Development endeavors. A downtown parking study was initiated in 2023. That is still in progress. I'm currently into some feedback discussions with various members of the department as well as the consultant. There was the grand opening of Desert Vista -- of the Desert Vista Skate Park. It was quite an event about a year ago in June. There are currently efforts underway to add the fountain to the National Register of Historic Places. The community Economic Development strategy was approved earlier last year and as well as the Environmental Plan which was actually, in some ways, initiated by the Strategic Planning Commission, and that was approved in February of last year. Again, it's -- the Environmental Plan, just like the General Plan, it's a policy document, not a legal document such as the zoning ordinance or the subdivision ordinance. Again, real quick, again, keep in mind the time frames that I talked about going forward. I want to talk a little bit -- just a couple point -- bullet points here with regards to -- regarding some of the immediate actions that we were to take. And again, immediate actions within six months of ratification. And so these two actions were not completed. We were to consider employing a part-time grant writer, and parenthetically, I put in Economic Development. That's the element in which this was under, the General Plan TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 67 element. Traditionally, or as has been the de facto practice, basically grant writing is something that has been spearheaded by the pertinent department. For example, if it's with regards to grants for designing a section of sidewalk, our Public Works department would spearhead that. If there's any grants, as I mentioned earlier, with regards to obtaining funding for Economic Development purposes, quite obviously, our Economic Development department would be leading that effort. You know, the question is is it feasible to hire a part-time grant writer when there's no guarantee that we would actually receive those grants because as many of us have witnessed, at least at the staff level, a lot of the grants that we had applied for were not awarded to us. So should we consider -- continue to consider hiring a part-time grant writer or leave that up to the individual departments? And also, we were also to establish a General Plan monitoring system and coordinate that with the CIP. We attribute that much to disruption from the pandemic and some turnover at the management level particularly. What we plan to do as staff, including all the various departments, is to form an ad hoc committee and make sure that the General Plan action items and the CIP are mutually supportive of one another, you know, making sure that basically, for lack of a better phrase, we kill two birds with one stone by addressing the goals of each policy or budgetary goal, in this case, with the CIP. Short-term actions that we have not accomplished yet, these were to occur within -- if I look back at my notes real quick, within -- or I should say, these were to be initiated within the first four years. Now, we are entering into our fourth year. So yes, there is time to initiate these, but I think pointing these out, we are getting awfully close and wanted to bring these up for possible discussion, maybe any direction that the Commission or Council might have. So one is to develop and implement an investment plan that responds to the Economic Development plan's priorities, and that prioritizes infrastructure improvements in the CIP. That is an Economic Development goal within the respective element in the -- in the General Plan. Although we do not have or have not initiated a formal investment TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 67 plan or any effort to produce a document under that title, we have been -- various departments have been working with one another, in this case, Economic Development as well as Public Works, to make sure that, you know, they are -- you know, both efforts are mutually supportive of one another, making sure that, you know, we are making investments in terms of Economic Development, but also providing the infrastructure that would support that. The next bullet, commission a cost benefit study to identify the gap between actual subdivision regulations, particularly the infrastructure specifications within them, and determine the cost of meeting such specifications. That is another action item that, you know, obviously has not been addressed, but we hope to address that in the form of an ad hoc effort, probably over the summer. The third bullet, prepare and adopt and implement an integrated parks, recreation, trails, and open space master plan. Now, I've presented or mentioned some actions that we have taken with regards to the -- some of the trails, some of the -- basically, the expansion of the network, improvements to existing trails, but as these -- as the network continues to improve, I think later on down the line, you know, it would be ripe enough to start an all-out effort to create a more integrated master plan for our entire trial system here in town. Amend the zoning ordinance to include -- this is the next bullet. Amend the zoning ordinance to include, at a minimum, safe-by-design concepts. Let me go ahead and mention the last one because they -- in some ways, they relate to one another in terms of, you know, how we intend -- or how we may be able to go about this in implementing it. Amend the zoning ordinance to include low-impact development. Okay. Safe-by-design. These are basically policy, I guess, recommendations such as well-lit walkways or well-defined walkways, making sure that in the case of multi-family development, that the front door is visible from the driveway leading into it. These are -- these are policies that, on our day-to-day tasks, John and I particularly, we make sure that there's a -- there's a good balance between privacy and security. Low-impact development is actually a word that originated from the EPA. It basically TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 67 makes sure that, you know, water is being -- water infiltration is occurring the way it should, there's proper drainage. So particularly, some infrastructure goals related to water quality and stormwater runoff. These last two items, you know, these are things that we look at on a day-to-day basis when reviewing plans. Do they need to be codified into any one of our ordinances, either the zoning ordinance, the subdivision ordinance? You know, I think that is something that is -- that is worthy of discussion as we enter our fourth year in the efficacy of the General Plan. Okay. Now, these are mid long-range actions to be initiated within the fifth year, so we have quite a bit of time, but again, just maybe worthy of discussion today. I brought up a couple bullet points here. Update all applicable regulations and ordinances to meet the directives of the Environmental Plan. Once adopted -- again, the Environmental Plan was adopted February of last year. It echoes, primarily, what is already in the General Plan, only that there's reference to the desire for biophilic design, kind of integrating the built environment with nature. Again, the question is, you know, is that something that we want to pursue in terms of implementation in the form of working it into one of our ordinances, perhaps the zoning ordinance. And also, work with ASL -- the Arizona State Land Department to prepare a feasibility study for state trust land and base the results of a cost recovery study and consider future revenues that could be generated from development of trust land. Well, I'm not sure if we could initiate this on our own quite yet when there's no interest in developing it, but it -- you know, certainly, it might be something that could potentially come up within the -- within the next six years or so. Now, this is not intended to be an item to be taken action on in order to implement any kind of policy or anything like that. This is simply -- what we're looking for is your acknowledgment that we have presented you with the annual report just so we have something for the record and something that we could show for the fact that we met statutory requirement and then, hopefully, seek your approval to forward this over to the Town Council. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 67 And with that, I'll end my presentation. GRAY: Vice Chair? WATTS: Thank you, Farhad. I'm going to start from the back of the document that we've received, specifically -- and I'm really glad to see Councilmember Kalivianakis here because the biophilic design component, I thought, was stricken from the environmental study, and yet we're referencing it here again. Maybe Councilmember Kalivianakis can speak to that when we have -- open it up to public, but I'm pretty sure that was stricken. And then there's -- aside -- one of the things that I found most daunting here was using TOPS and being able to export information so that I can put it into some CSV or Excel file to be able to manipulate that data, so I'd like to see that accomplished going forward as well. Scottsdale and Shea. I didn't know we had apartments in Scottsdale and Shea. TAVASSOLI: Oh, is there a reference to Scottsdale and Shea? WATTS: There is. TAVASSOLI: Oh, okay. WATTS: Yeah, Scottsdale and Shea, and it's on the -- I guess the second -- third page. DEMPSTER: Under Housing Element. I think it's a typo. TAVASSOLI: Oh, is it referring -- WATTS: I think it's a typo, too, yeah. But what got me was the 57 permits, and I was trying to validate the 57 permits and all of the different things, and then I thought, Scottsdale and Shea and is that really there. I would like to know more about the safe design and how that works, who administers it. Is it a software program? Is it just instinct? Is there something that drives that process? So I'd like to see that. TAVASSOLI: Okay. WATTS: The Pumphouse Project. We talked about local artists, but I thought we had allowed somebody other than a local artist in to display this year. So are we -- maybe we should revisit that. TAVASSOLI: Right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 67 WATTS: We ought to recognize the Indian community, too, because in so many of the areas that we've talked about here, they've been very beneficial to us in one way, shape, or form. The visitor software was interesting because I'd like to see the results of that and see how that is impacted. COREY: Or why we're doing it. WATTS: Or why -- yes, both components. I'll stop there for a minute. I just want to -- there's a lot of questions. There's a few typos in here that I'd like to get corrected just to make sure that we're all on the same page. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. I enjoyed reading it because I think we've accomplished a lot despite the pandemic and such, so it was nice to read the highlights, and especially about the community garden and art. That was great. I do believe there is a second typo under Immediate Goals that -- under Goal: Consider part-time grant writer, I think that toward the bottom of that paragraph -- TAVASSOLI: I think you're talking about, Mr. Chairman, the Commissioner, the second- to-last sentence there? DEMPSTER: Yes. Yes. TAVASSOLI: Okay. That should say persistently continue to obtain. DEMPSTER: Continuing -- yes. TAVASSOLI: Yeah, not -- DEMPSTER: Yeah. And I thought I saw one other typo, but I can't -- WATTS: It's in the next paragraph. DEMPSTER: Okay. Yeah, not that. There's one other typo, and I don't want to take the time. I can just email you with that. TAVASSOLI: Sure. Yeah. Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, yeah, if you notice any typos or any other errors that you'd like to see addressed -- DEMPSTER: And -- GRAY: Commissioner -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 67 DEMPSTER: Sorry. I just want to close the loop here. The parking standard and design guidelines, I -- that was one of my questions, the results, but it sounds like it's still in progress, so I'll be very interested to see the results. But thank you for this work. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Yes. I didn't find any typos, but just looks like Susan may have had them all covered. I did like the zoning ordinance revisions to include modern developments. I'd be interested to hear more about that. I think that's great that we're including that. I like hearing about the environmental and economic integration. Also, I would agree that a parks, rec, travel master plan would be something nice to see, kind of bring that all together and see how we have a strategy behind that because that's very important in this community. And I think another win that we had was that we did work on that public participation process, and we go that -- we got more people involved in providing input. And I think we even have something on Wednesday of this week. Is it the downtown strategy meeting with the community? So yeah, so that's great. I think that's a win. The Pumphouse Project, I believe, is -- it changes every year. So I think the first year, it was local artists, and I think this current year, they had a different profile, so it was more national recognition, then they may come back to a local thing eventually. But I think it changes every year. Maybe we need a motorcycle noise ordinance next. And the last one here was -- I think we were looking at new funding models, alternate revenue. Could you clarify a little bit about that? What were you planning on doing there with funding? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman -- GRAY: It's in relation to the investment plan under Economic Development. TAVASSOLI: Yeah. GRAY: If you know. TAVASSOLI: I think -- I think that's just being on the lookout for -- the intention there is to state that we're constantly on the lookout for granting and funding opportunities -- COREY: Okay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 67 TAVASSOLI: -- from various state agencies, various federal agencies. Even at the regional level, MAG from time to time administers some funds that, I think, are received from ADOT, if I'm not mistaken, for just, like -- COREY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: -- exploring -- COREY: Got it. Okay. TAVASSOLI: -- design options for -- COREY: While I have the floor really quick, because you reminded me of the grant, I remember you had that in the PowerPoint presentation. So we don't have the grant writer, but the departments on their own have somebody who's skilled at writing or looking for grants for that particular area, so -- TAVASSOLI: Yeah. COREY: -- hopefully, that is still -- that's not an issue that we don't have somebody dedicated to it, but they're still actively trying to write these -- look for money without missing any opportunities? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, there are members in virtually all the departments that attend regular meetings virtually most of the time, either by meetings headed by MAG -- COREY: Yeah. TAVASSOLI: -- or some state agencies, and, you know, that's usually when those opportunities are -- come up and light bulbs go over our heads, and so we know -- COREY: Yes. Okay. TAVASSOLI: -- we need to hone in on this and, you know, see if that's something we can pursue. GRAY: Anything else? COREY: I'm okay. GRAY: Okay. Just parlaying on Commissioner Corey -- well, first, if you thought you weren't going to get comments, you got the wrong group, right? TAVASSOLI: I beg your pardon? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 67 GRAY: I said if you thought you weren't going to get comments from us, you got the wrong group, right? TAVASSOLI: Oh, no. That's the purpose of my presentation. GRAY: We're going to fire comments all night long. I think that we -- so many -- I mean, this is great that we're having the interaction because so many times, we do this, and we just push it forward. We just, you know, let it ride, push it forward, and then the next thing you know, we got a hearing and it's thrown back at us, right? So no more Larry Meyers using our words against us. Picking up on Commissioner Corey's discussion on the grants, in my day job, we work with grants a lot. Not me, but as an organization. And it's very specialized. It's not something that everybody should just go out and pick up and do a Google search and find a grant and go do it. So if there was a place to really look at FTE allocation, I would strongly recommend that the Council prioritize that. And one of the main reasons for that is I think we said here in the highlights that there's, what did we say, 100,000, 150,000 or something of grant revenue coming in. More often than not, what happens with grants, though, especially public grants, is you can go get them all day long, but the administrative burden of guaranteeing them, certifying them, getting your third parties lined up, that 100,000 might be minus ten by the time it's all said and done. So I think setting up an algorithm or a criteria that says, hey, you know, when we look at grants, there's going to be kind of the net bottom line look at grants is paramount, and you really have to have somebody who's specialized who can really kind of triage out what's -- you know, what's chaseable and what's not. If everybody does it, it probably isn't ending well. I wanted to ask you, in the area -- and you had a slide to it of, you know, a newer term that's not yet been picked up. Do each -- do each of those elements have, you know, let's call it a champion within staff? So the Investment Plan to be responsive to Economic Development -- the Economic Development Plan, is the Economic Development director tasked with being the champion of running that process to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 67 ground, or is it just kind of anybody's ball to grab? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, the Economic Development director in this case -- hold on just a second -- may decide to take that on or may decide to delegate that to somebody within their department, but like I showed you here, you know, there are agencies that are expected to lead each effort. Now, whether that's going to be the director of that department or a subordinate, it may depend. GRAY: So I mean, a lot of those are all in the same vein, right? They're all probably weighted as pretty important to the Town's trajectory. Is it the Council or is it the town manager who's -- we've gone three years. Probably about time the pandemic gets to be removed from Webster's Dictionary sort of thing. But who's in charge of making sure that task leader champions that objective, right? Because we're about to have five or six suns set here in another year of -- we'll have missed the short-term window. I just want to, I guess -- I don't even need an answer. I just want to make sure that we're thinking about what that process is to get there. And then just kind of one other generality. The section on Great Places -- and I get it. We're -- you know, in some respects, this is a report to tick a box under state statute, but, you know, right at the front of the Great Places in definition is, "The Great Places Element defines the Town of Fountain Hills major character areas and the land use mix supporting those areas. As a tool, the Great Places Element guides new development, redevelopment and infill development to sustain the long-range viability of the Town," which is great, but then what's used in substantiation of that is the community garden was six years ago. We're doing farmers' markets. I would say 60 percent of what's in substantiation from that probably doesn't belong there. I don't know who wrote it or how this report comes together, but I would call a lot of that out before this gets ratified by the Council. I have the same question as Vice Chair Watts on the software analytics to assess trade area and town mapping of business activity and consumer behavior. We have, like, three streets of retail, so I don't quite understand that whole thing. I would like to get a better understanding of it. And then -- well, I said the pandemic piece. So I think that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 67 was it. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think along the same lines, the comment about the Town has initiated a formal Investment Plan, I think the CFO -- the Town CFO, Paul -- and I can't remember his last name, so my apologies -- really already has that put together, and it really is pretty much like I've got capital improvement projects and I've got dollars that tie to it. It's a project management tool that should be transparent to the public to see what we've approved, where we're at in that process, what's remaining. Project management tools, grant charts, things along those lines, I think, could be very helpful not only to the Council, but also to the town residents for a better understanding. GRAY: Since you bought me time, I've got two more thoughts. Farhad, the state trust land comes up in conversation, not so much as -- lately as it used to, but does Economic Development stay in contact with the State Land Department to even know if that parcel or that allocation is something they would consider auctioning still, or are we holding onto something from ten years ago that's maybe -- you know, the State's kind of migrated their sales over to the north and the west, kind of, you know, central corridor-ish going straight north. Are they still actually considering this as a viable auction property, or is it off the radar for them? I guess the question is are we actually tracking that, or are we talking about something that's not viable any longer? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, to answer your first question, to my knowledge, Economic Development -- GRAY: Would not -- TAVASSOLI: -- has not received any communications, nor have they communicated with the State Land Department. I'm not aware of any direct line between the two. Your second question about the state land piece, could you repeat that for me again? I'm sorry. I just want to make sure I'm on point. GRAY: Well, that was just it. I mean, I just want to make sure -- we keep referencing something. A lot of times, that stuff comes and goes. You know, as the State moves their priority list around, it may not be out there for the taking any longer. TAVASSOLI: Right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 67 GRAY: You know, not to say that someone can't approach the State and say, hey, I would like to pursue this, and the State turns around and runs their auction process if they concur, but, you know, they move that -- you know, they move their corridors and their targets around, and they may not be willing to sell it today. So I just think that's something maybe Economic Development should check in on if we're going to reference it in our strategy documents. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, I do check the -- although I do have some colleagues who work there, I do check the website from the State Land Department periodically, and I hear no rumblings whatsoever about any interest in the state land piece or -- GRAY: Yeah. TAVASSOLI: -- any, you know -- GRAY: And I'm not suggesting that there is interest. I'm just suggesting -- TAVASSOLI: Right. GRAY: -- we talk about it as a municipality, and maybe we shouldn't. And then maybe we'll get to this, but I keep hearing about the biophilic design, and I'm trying to understand what the anxiety is here. So I don't -- I don't know if you can lay any context to that or not. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, I think that was an issue that came up, at least for myself, today. It may be something that I'd have to look back on, look at the minutes and see exactly what was discussed. I'd want to make sure we get that right. But otherwise, I'm not sure what else I could say about that reference to biophilic design at this point. GRAY: I just wonder -- maybe it's just a case that the definition of biophilic design needs to be tied down against the American Institute of Architects or something along those lines. Commissioner? WATTS: I think the biophilic design was discussed in the Environmental Plan, and I do think that -- and I'm hoping Councilmember Kalivianakis is going to speak to it, but that there was some discussion about deleting that component. And if I'm wrong, my apologies, but I think that it was deleted, so I don't want to have something referenced that isn't appropriate. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 67 GRAY: That's not an environmental consideration. WATTS: I think that's what was discussed. GRAY: It's the interaction between livable space and the environment. It's a -- it's an intermeshing -- WATTS: It's a -- GRAY: -- of the two. It's not about environmental policy per se. WATTS: But I think that's where it was spoken about, and I think it's the balance of -- the harmonies between the environment, whether it's color, whether it's features. And John just sighed with exasperation, so I'll let him speak. WESLEY: Chair, Vice Chair, so when we did the Environmental Plan a little over a year ago, we worked with the Strategic Planning Advisory Committee because it was one of their tasks to do. We took all the different things in the General Plan having to do with environmental policy, they were scattered a little bit through that plan, and pulled them together, and then at the request of the Commission, also added a policy with regard to biophilic, and that's the way that that then combined the overall Environmental Plan with the Council. There was discussion at the council meeting where they reviewed that and accepted that plan about a number of items. I reviewed those minutes this afternoon because this question came up, and the only substantive discussion I saw about biophilic was on page 77 of the minutes, and the discussion was about whether the first word should be encourage or incorporate. It wasn't clear from the discussion after that which of those two words they really agreed on, but I was the one, then, that took all the comments from the Council and made those adjustments according to what they approved, and I do not see where they took biophilic out as one of the policies. WATTS: Like I said, I could have been wrong, but I know that there was a fairly -- there was an interesting debate -- WESLEY: Yes, there was. WATTS: -- about the inclusion of biophilic, and it could be, you know, promoted or some adjective before it that was trying to describe it to make it more of a component TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 67 rather than a suggestion. GRAY: Well, an Environmental Plan is the wrong place for it anyway, but -- WATTS: Be that as it may, that's where it came up. GRAY: Fair enough. Speaker cards? Do you have a speaker card, Councilman? KALIVIANAKIS: (Indiscernible). GRAY: Can I do that, John? Sounds good to us. KALIVIANAKIS: Good evening. Just for the people at home, I'm Vice Mayor Kalivianakis. Thank you, Rick, for looking into this plan and all of the work that you did. Thank you, Peter, for inviting me to speak tonight. Around ten months ago, it came before the Council, the Environmental Plan. At that time, there were certain things that we didn't like about that plan, and so I wrote an amendment which went -- which was going to overlay over the plan that was submitted. The amendment was approved. The amendment was -- had struck out the discussion of the biophilic design, and also, that we were going to become a biophilic community and go for that certification. Those were both removed in the amendment. The amendment was passed. And so when you go back and look at the minutes, please go back and review the amendment, which identified clearly what we wanted in the Environmental Plan and what we excluded. And so if you do that, then I think that'll address this issue. I'm glad it was just a mistake because when I saw this today and this weekend, I was thinking, you know, are we not taking -- you know, this deliberative body, it goes through here, it goes through the Council, and I think it's just very important for the town staff to take its direction from you and from us and -- so we don't have to take a look at everything and it's not a rinse, repeat, go back to the beginning, and come back up on projects or things that they would like to push. You know, when we finally do arbitrate it and it finally goes before Council, it should be finished. I think it's a waste of the time of our staff to take things that have been dealt with and then go back and waste staff time like I think was done here. And so I would encourage you, John, to go back, look at the amendment that I filed, and I think we can TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 67 clear this up. So thank you very much. GRAY: Paula, speaker cards? WOODWARD: Chair, we have two speaker cards. The first speaker is Lori Troller, and on deck will be Larry Meyers. TROLLER: Chair, Vice Chair, Council, Paula. Lori Troller. Good evening. Here's my corrections. I'll save you all of them, but -- and most of them we've already talked about, but I am a -- I'm a stickler on documentation being correct. This is, like you said, for the record, and this needs to be correct. This becomes our history, and people are going to come back to this. Sometimes policymakers come back to this, and if -- like, the biophilic stuff is in here when it definitely should not be. This is wrong. This is very important this gets straight. This isn't just little stuff. So I will say that there's multiple times in the document places are referred to, between this point and this point, and it's often said between Saguaro and such and such. Well, that means everything to us, but anybody in the state reading that, they're going to think, you have this monster, Saguaro. It should be spelled out, Saguaro Boulevard. It's -- many, many times in this document, it doesn't say Saguaro Boulevard, it just says Saguaro. That's got to be, I think, clarified. Yeah, and I was surprised to see we're Scottsdale and Shea now. I'm like, ooh, taxes. So the thing about the biophilic that -- I don't want to belabor the point, but I will say this. It's not a typo in here. It says, literally, adding some clarifying content and adding a section regarding efforts to become biophilic community. That was an account of what we said happened in the Council meeting, which is what Ms. Kalivianakis was trying to correct. It did come up. That's not what we agreed on. This is an incorrect account of what happened in that meeting. That needs to be corrected. The other thing that needs to be corrected -- so that's in the part of the report that says what we accomplished, and then later on in the document where it says what we need to do in the future -- there's not page numbers on this, I'm sorry, before I do that. Oh, no, I can't find it. For -- in the future, it definitely says that we need to weave in biophilic language into our ordinances. Again, that's not a typo, and it can't be TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 67 misconstrued. That has to be totally rewritten so -- I wish I could find it. Sorry. But I really want to point that out. The account of what happened is incorrect, and what we need to do is incorrect because Ms. Kalivianakis got that straightened out. So just really want to point that out. Biophilic is a -- it's a trigger word in the environment we're in right now. It's not a good word for some people, so it's really important we get that straightened out. That's it. Thank you. MEYERS: Chair, Vice Chair, Commissioners. So couple things very quickly. The Pumphouse is not to change yearly. Pumphouse Art is to be local, and it's now not local. So having been associated with the arts for some 30 odd years, maybe longer, I pay attention to this stuff. And just to correct, if you're going to write something, as Ms. Troller said, write it correctly. The Pumphouse art is to be local and always to be local. It's not shifting to state, national, whatever. Second thing that I sort of picked up on in this grand plan that we always relate back to whenever we're trying to justify some of our actions for zoning, rezoning, whatever, the environmental portion of this plan. I'm all for it, but I'm also for not overlooking it when we make a major reason, like at the Target plaza, where there was absolutely no sanitation study, and what could be more environmental than sanitation. We had none, and yet we just sort of waved it on. And then we write something like this, and then we come here to comply with the state statute, and it angers me because if you're going to write some master plan, then follow the master plan because back in 1968 when the McCulloch Oil Company actually wrote the master plan for the master-planned community, your next agenda item says that the utilities go underground. That's what it says. And it's been that way for all of these years, and now we have -- seem to have some sort of discussion where we're not following -- going to follow the master plan. And then my last comment was already covered by Councilperson Kalivianakis because that discussion was pretty intense, and biophilic was amended out of the writings, so weaving it into our ordinances, I'm calling BS on that. And I think the word is kind of -- as Ms. Troller said, is a trigger word now. I think that the definition as it's written is TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 67 probably not bad, and we already have it because it talks about the interrelationship between people and the environment, and Fountain Hills certainly has that, but not as it's now being proposed. Thank you. GRAY: Paula, just the two cards, right? WOODWARD: Yes, Chairman. GRAY: Okay. Commission, what are we looking to do here? Revise and resubmit? Press forward? Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: I would say revise and resubmit. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Revise and resubmit. And I think -- with all the typos, I think we should submit back to John the issues that we saw here, kind of recap them so we -- put them in a summary and make the edits as necessary. GRAY: Okay. So Commissioners, I'll consolidate comments, issue those back to town staff off of the written notes, and we'll continue to next month's venue. A motion? Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: So moved. GRAY: Second? WATTS: Second. GRAY: Okay. Moved by Commissioner Kovacevic, seconded by Commissioner Watts. All in favor? ALL: Aye. WOODWARD: What was the motion? I didn't -- GRAY: Continue to next month. WOODWARD: Continue to the next month? GRAY: Yeah. WOODWARD: To June? Okay. GRAY: All right. We are back to Agenda Item 7, Ordinance 24-08 related to Chapter 17, Wireless Telecommunication Towers and Antennas or Antennae. Which did you want? WATTS: Yes. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 67 GRAY: See, I got him, John. WESLEY: Thank you, Chairman. Appreciate that. Any other questions? Okay. So here we are again, ready to talk some more about potential changes to Chapter 17 of the Town zoning ordinance dealing with wireless telecommunications, towers and antennae. We have been discussing this at a couple previous meetings. Based on some citizen input, Council directed staff to update the existing tower and antennae regulations. And again, small cell wireless services in the right-of-way are not covered in the zoning ordinance, and so not part of this particular discussion this evening. Goals from the update have been to balance the needs for quality service with public safety, limit towers in or near residential, establish a clear, manageable review process, provide for ongoing maintenance compliance, and to address aesthetic issues. Again, just a comparison, quickly, of the existing ordinance layout on the left with what's being proposed on the right-hand column. So we've been through the ordinance previously. At your March meeting, we went through each section of what was in there. We had some discussion last month just in general responding to some of the comments and questions that have come up. So for this evening, I thought I would approach this a little bit differently and just go through -- basically using the ordinance as it's being proposed and through that method, talk about some of the provisions that are -- that are in it now that might be different. And so starting with the idea of an application being submitted and how it enters that process and gets reviewed, we'd first be looking to see if it's something that falls under administrative review or public review. So Section 17.04 describes the different types of applications. Part A deals with administrative review applications and goes through and lists, then, the criteria for things that could be considered administratively starting with modifications to existing towers and antennas that were themselves approved administratively, and as long as they stay within the balance of an administrative approval, those could be reviewed administratively. If it's something that was approved previously as a public review but meets the criteria listed as being minor changes, then TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 40 of 67 those modifications could be approved -- reviewed and approved administratively. Co-locations on existing antennae that were approved administratively could also, then, be approved administratively, would fall within ordinance requirements. Co-locations on towers that were approved through public review initially could be considered and approved administratively, again, if they meet the parameters that were listed here in 2. And new utility service antennas that comply with height and setback requirements, administrative. Applications for temporary wireless facilities that are more than seven days, administrative. Again, the ordinance allows for temporary wireless facilities for less than seven days just to happen without any real review. And then new towers, basically if they are more than 300 feet from residential, nonresidential, those can be reviewed and considered administratively as well as alternative structures that meet height limits and 300 feet from residential. So what are public reviews? Basically, anything that doesn't fall within those categories. So any tower in residential or within 300 feet of residential as it currently stands. I know there may be some discussion about lengthening that out to some larger distance, but right now, that's what the code is is 300 feet. So once the application is received, what are the submittal requirements that somebody has to provide? So those are provided in a couple of different places in the draft ordinance. So Section 17.05 is a section on application submittals, review, and processing. A is general requirements. So again, we start with the idea that electronic submissions, same as in other sections of the zoning ordinance, that they must include the items in 17.03.A, which again lists general requirements, is applicable for the particular type of application, several things about the lot size, how they're addressing the aesthetics, their lighting plan, their co-location plan, security fencing, landscaping, noise, and the engineering certifications for the proposed structure. It also needs to include an inventory of existing sites, and that inventory needs to include those items as listed. And then for utility service antennas, there are some specific requirements there, and then specific requirements for existing towers, use scaled drawing, number talk of TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 41 of 67 proposed antenna, engineering calculations, dimensioned scale drawings for ground equipment. If it's for a new tower, then this kicks us into a more full review with a site plan that meets all the requirements of Section 2.04, site plans within the zoning ordinance, the separation distances from the towers and antennas, more detail in the method and design of fencing and compliance with the other sections of the code that are listed there. Part of the -- those that are listed are the separation requirements, and so I listed those here. Table 1, how far you had to be from different land uses, offsets from existing residential structures themselves when they're built or if it's just zoned, and then on planted lands and going on down to nonresidential. And then the separation requirements between antennas. So depending upon how tall the antennas are, they're 265-foot-tall or taller antennas, they're 2,000 feet apart. If they're 40 feet or less, 750 feet apart. Going on with those requirements for what is submitted, for new towers, in (indiscernible) of co-locations, identifying backhoe providers, suitability of using existing towers or alternate locations, and compliance with RF exposure limits, and the application fee, of course. Then once we do have that submittal meeting those requirements, we can begin the review process. So we start talking about the shot clocks, tolling, and processing. So the shot clocks are -- basically, review times are established to help maintain compliance with the federal regulations that say we have to review and approve in a timely manner or they can just be approved. So the shot clock runs while the application is in the Town's hands. It's stopped, or tolled, when it's not in our hands. But within that section, we describe some other criteria. So when reviewing an application, initial completeness review time frames for administrative and public review, and the actual application review times are specified. Again, that's the times that -- when it's in our hands. And then some parameters where the shot clock can stop. Even if it's in our hands, if it's a complete application, we mutually agree to extend the time, or if there's some reasonable delay of things such as pandemic, strikes, and TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 42 of 67 thereby, everything stops or whatever, things like that that Council can consider and use for other extensions. Then once we get into the actual review and processing, it lists a number of items to be considered for all types of applications. And then for administrative applications, there's a couple other more specific items here that would be used. And if it's a public review application, then in addition to the requirements in this section, we're going over to Section 2.02 of the zoning ordinance for special use permits and the requirements there that would have to be met in terms of the citizen participation plan, the good neighbor statement, public hearing with notice. There are standards within the SUP ordinance for review of SUPs that would apply to the review criteria. Would also need to demonstrate to Council that no existing tower technology will work, and the Council can impose whatever conditions they feel are necessary to minimize any adverse impacts. So once we get through that, towers get built. We then have the provisions there for maintenance and operations. So 17.06 of the zoning ordinance talks about the removal of abandoned towers, so if they're not used for 90 consecutive -- or for 90 days, they can be considered abandoned. We then have 90 days to -- with notice of the Town to remove, and failure to remove, the Town can remove at the owner's expense. Subsection B refers, then, to the state and federal requirements. They must meet or exceed whatever the current FCC standards are, and if those standards change, they have six months to comply and submit reports, as required by this section, to document that they've done so. When a new tower is built, they have within 45 days of initial operation to verify that they comply. There's also provisions in there for random RF testing going forward. And the zoning approval can be revoked if three or more violations in a five-year time period are found where they don't comply with the RF testing. With regard to the building codes and noise, local issues, so maintaining compliance with building codes, if found in violation, have 30 days to correct; not corrected, be grounds for removal. Maintaining compliance with the noise ordinance, and probably TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 43 of 67 the biggest thing with that is any generator testing happens between 9 a.m. and 4 p.m. So that is a quick overview of how the ordinance works and would be applied. I've got a lot more slides that go through the ordinance in detail if the Commission needs to go there, but I thought I'd stop at this point and see where you'd like to go with my comments or public input. GRAY: Commissioners? Let's do public comment cards. WOODWARD: There are two public comment cards. The first speaker is Lori Troller. The second speaker who'll be on deck is Larry Meyers. TROLLER: Notes again. Here we go. Good morning -- good evening, Commissioners. Lori Troller, resident. I didn't get too far through the ordinance he had written. Sorry, John. There was just too much. And I kind of -- I'm going to go a little bit of a different direction here. And I did ask for six minutes. I don't know if I got approved for that. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You got it. TROLLER: Okay. So as you can or cannot see, I have a lot of notes on this. There was a lot to prepare for this. There is so much on this topic that not even an experienced Mr. Wesley, Community Services Director, is the qualified person for this. Unless Mr. Wesley has extensive background in radio frequency experience or can define, down to the decibel and volt, what limits are allowed versus the exposure of the amounts that the town is already in, or has completed extensive reading of medical cases in the effects of living within 300 feet of radio frequency, or has studied the effects of industrial equipment becoming a permanent part of residential property or at least right next to it, or has the technical knowledge of telecom network infrastructure and components, or, most importantly, is a qualified lawyer that you would choose to represent you in a lawsuit against a multi-million-dollar team of lawyers, because this ordinance is all your lawyer will have to argue your case in a lawsuit if one of these things shows up in your yard, you'd better ask for the absolute best qualified person to write this, someone qualified to outwit the telecom industry. Mr. Wesley has his expertise, but this isn't it, nor is our town attorney capable of the enormity of this issue. At every opportunity, you've asked for this type of expertise so TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 44 of 67 you could bring about the best ordinance we could. You've been flat out denied when Mr. Wesley, in Mr. Wesley's own summary, states, and I'll quote, "draw upon the work of the consultants as appropriate". Your requests made that appropriate, and that consultant is one of the top three lawyers in the country on the topic, and our attorney, and now our community services director, has silenced a leading lawyer. Mr. Wesley has also -- at every opportunity has told us at each meeting he got his direction in the secrecy of executive session. He tells us he was not instructed to this -- to do this or that, but he has not provided proof of what he was instructed to do. He's got executive session to rely on. However, the spirit of our government is to operate in open transparency. Of course, we would make Robert's rules to protect the obvious discussions, like employee salary, legal issues, dealing with lawsuits, contract negotiations, real estate purchases, security plans, but never the development of an ordinance. This situation is wrought with actionable items. I have been on this Town like a badger to update this ordinance for two years. How long did it take Mr. Wesley to write this? Four months. You know when we could have had this completed in this town had we started when I first asked? That would have been November 22nd. And that's giving you -- I'm spotting him four months. So please, get to the bottom of this. And in the meantime, we need to do what it takes to write the strongest possible ordinance. I added a little bit, if I have the time. So I recommend the Commission address the Council to incorporate Article 16-2, which is small wireless facility antennas, into Chapter 17. So this moves it from the municipal code to the zoning code, and then it's in your -- the purview of Planning and Zoning. And then be sure that Chapter 17 is broken out into separate sections, one for each type of the antennas with their own specific rules and laws. And this would mirror the exact format of Davis, California. Thank you. John, nothing personal. I -- we just got to get the best people we can. Thanks. MEYERS: Chair, Vice Chair, Commissioners. Larry Meyers again. So I'm going to address just part of -- two things which Ms. Troller also mentioned. So in your packet today, it TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 45 of 67 says, quote -- I'm quoting. Just throwing your words back on you -- "Review of draft ordinance from March 11, 2024 staff report," referring to Ordinance 24-08. Review of draft ordinance. Okay. So first of all, I didn't know we were talking about cell towers because the last meetings were all dealing in broadband and small cell wireless. So here we have another meeting where we're addressing something that's not really what we were talking about and that seem to be -- come from an executive session direction from the Council to Mr. Wesley. And I'm not purview -- I don't have any privy to executive session material, but I will tell you that ordinances are not to be discussed in executive sessions unless they're ordinances that are involved in lawsuits. And so any direction by the Council in an executive session towards Mr. -- to tell Mr. Wesley to do any work on an ordinance is not compliant. Okay. So that's the first thing. Second thing is you, as a commission, requested the work from the competent consultant, Campanelli, paid for by tax dollars of the residents of Fountain Hills, and you were denied, and the reason was, quote, "The Town policy is not to have draft ordinances available to the public." May I go back to what I first said in the first sentence. Quote, "Review of the draft ordinance from the March 11, 2024 staff report." So this is a draft ordinance open to the public and in our purview, and yet Mr. Campanelli's draft ordinance is not. So I'm not sure what kind of game is being played by our town attorney, but I will be requesting Mr. Campanelli's draft ordinance, and if I don't get it -- I will get it eventually somehow. And so I would like this body to, once again, make its demand for that draft ordinance, and then we can go from there with a real expert. No offense, either, to John, and I don't think he woke up yesterday to deny you guys getting it. I think he was directed as such. And so I think it would be really helpful in a multitude of ways for this entire discussion to become more transparent because, after all, the residents and citizens of Fountain Hills are really the ones who will be most affected by this. Thank you. GRAY: Paula, just two cards, correct? Thank you. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 46 of 67 WOODWARD: Yes, Chairman. GRAY: Commissioners? I have nothing profound to say, so -- WATTS: I don't know that anything that I have to say is profound, but couple of questions. I think Chapter 17 -- the first thing that kind of smacks me in the face is the example that I want to see of the applicant's application. What does it include? What's in it? You've narratively told us what it includes, what it doesn't include, but I'd like to see that so I would have a better understanding of what's going on. WESLEY: While I'm pulling -- GRAY: Are you looking for a response? WATTS: Neither. It's a statement at this point, so I'm not looking for -- I think -- I think that application has to be -- should be included so that anybody can see what is required. And a couple more of my comments are going to be some of the things that need to be included because I don't think they are included today, but that's speculation. So I'd like to see what it is, so there's some editorializing that I can do on that end as well. I did go back and look at January, March, and April's minutes, and that's how I stumbled on my -- sorry, Paula -- faux pas, but -- and we've been talking about broadband for a long time, and unbeknownst, I thought that we were talking about broadband tonight so that we would have this conversation about how we can wrap Article 16.2 into Chapter 17. Apparently, that isn't going to happen, at least yet. So eventually, I'm going to get around to making a motion to continue for some lack of information that we've got here, that we don't have here and the initiative to move Article 16.2 into -- as part of wireless telecommunication towers and antennas because, as I said before, an antenna for broadband versus an antenna for cell phone versus an antenna for AM radios, an antenna is an antenna is an antenna, and they all ought to be included in one chapter that we can reference to to make sure that we've got everything covered, and then we can talk about additional things. COREY: Why don't you ask why it's parsed out. WATTS: Huh? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 47 of 67 COREY: Ask why it's parsed out. WATTS: That's a good question. I don't know why it is parsed out in 16.2 as opposed to being included. Do you have any insight into how that happened? WESLEY: Yes. Chairman, Vice Chairman, I wasn't here when it was done to have details on it, but it's pretty clear in that the zoning ordinance deals with what happens on private property. Chapter 16 of the town code is streets and rights-of-ways. Small cell in the right-of-way is in the right-of-way, not on private property that zoning deals with, so that's why it was determined to separate it out. WATTS: It just seems like we've talked about other issues that are applicable to right-of- ways and setbacks and so on that are in the zoning component, but they -- sometimes we get issues that are ancillary to that. So it just seems more applicable here to me, anyway. I'd like Town Council to look at that and say -- give you the approval to roll that up into one. I also question the consultant again because I've asked numerous times about why we can't see the consultant, and yet we've got references in this document about the consultant and the recommendation the consultant made, and we're still being denied access to the consultant, but we're referencing it here. So I'm not sure how we can approve something to move forward without knowing what the back story is on the consultant. The distances -- you mentioned 300 feet, and I think -- for what we're doing today, I think that I'd look at 500 feet at a minimum. So that's one thing. And I think I'd look at 500 feet from separation for each instance, and that would be separation requirements for off-site uses. And then when it comes to separation distances between towers, I would recommend half a mile -- 2,640 feet for the monopoles 65 feet in height and greater, 15 feet -- 2,040 feet for monopoles less than 65 feet, and 1,500 feet for monopoles less than 40 feet. And if I go right across that whole chapter, then the monopole less than 65 feet in height but greater than 40 feet in height, I'd say 2,000 feet for the ones that are 65 feet and higher, monopoles less than 65 feet in height be 2,000 feet, and 1,500 feet for TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 48 of 67 monopoles less than 40 feet. The monopoles less than 40 feet in height be 1,500, 1,500, and 1,000 respectively in those categories. And my question with monopoles is what about the superstructure that holds the monopole? Is that included in the 65 feet or in the height, or is monopole different than the structure that we see in a conventional tower that we've got a tower and then we've got a pole on top of the tower? WESLEY: That's -- it's overall height -- Chair, Vice Chair, it's overall height to whatever is the tallest, the top of the tower, the top of the tallest antenna. Whatever is the top is that distance. WATTS: So the term monopole is inclusive of the superstructure that a pole sits on as well? Okay. All right. I just wanted to make sure I was -- I was clear on that. The issue about noise. I think that there is a different kind of noise that's related to RF that could be detrimental to residential areas, and I think I've mentioned this before. It could be, like, transient noise across fluorescent lights. When you've got electrical issues and you've got data cables going across, that there's a induced transient noise. Causes static. Causes lots of other things. And I think we ought to be cognizant, at least, to be able to measure that. So with that said, I think we also ought to have a table included with the specifics about the radio frequency exposure standards. We should have a reference that at least talks about where it exists in the telecom document itself. And just from a point of clarification, there's a new document out that's 512 pages from the -- from the FCC, that they have proposed some of these changes, but those proposed changes have not taken effect. It's a recommendation from the FCC that has to go before Congress to get approval because they've got the last say on those types of things. So it's in the works, and we may have to come back and revisit some of these, but right now, broadband still stands by itself, but I would like to find a way to get 16.2 wrapped up into 17 -- Chapter 17. So with that, I'll give the floor back. GRAY: So you're tabbing that for a motion that you wish to make when we're done deliberating? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 49 of 67 WATTS: Once we're done deliberating, yes. GRAY: Okay. John, I just had one thought specific to Chapter 17. I mean, I do think I agree. If we can find a way to fold 16.2 in or bring that to within our authority to weigh in, I'd like to do it, too. Mechanically, whether or not that's viable or not, I'll leave that to you, but I think there's probably good logic there. But in and amongst 17.05 and 17.06, probably more specifically in 17.06, we talk about random validations or certifications. I assume we're talking about the municipality conducting those? WESLEY: Chair, I'll go there. I believe it says that the Town would do it at the owner's expense at least one time a year. More than that, I think the Town would have to pay for it itself. Let's see. GRAY: So I'd prefer the Town take possession of that, and I like the randomization process. What I also like, kind of in conjunction with that, is -- you know, we get the annual report from the sanitary district, for example. I like the idea of, you know, those adjacent stakeholders or maybe a town-wide report that's published at some interval that's -- you know, that's pushed out or, you know, that you don't have to go digging to find necessarily. So maybe it doesn't have to be a mailer per se. But I don't know. I think in the years to come, people may become more and more interested in seeing those distributions being conforming or nonconforming. So just a thought. And then I don't know if it's viable or not within 17, but, you know, we keep hearing references and making references back to the original incorporation docs from McCulloch and utilities being underground, and I wonder if we shouldn't just consider a catch-all within 17 -- and then maybe it makes it easier now that 16.2 is parsed out, but within 17, it basically says any service or utility that can be provisioned for underground in accordance with those McCulloch-era development standards shall be -- and then if we need a means of accommodation, you know, maybe we -- maybe we set up a pathway to that for a -- you know, for a variance off of it. I think maybe adding a sentence or two to that effect in here would tie a bow on some of that for some people. WESLEY: Okay. I guess I'm lost, Chairman, about what that would mean because we TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 50 of 67 already have code requirements that no wires are to be above ground. It's already in the town codes those don't happen, and so what's -- GRAY: Well, it's the extrapolation of saying what you're doing with your tower apparatus. If it can be done underground via direct cable connection, then that shall prevail over a wireless version of that service or utility. And I -- the way I view it is with 16.02 being parsed out with the small cell right-of-way, then what's left, we ought to have full jurisdiction over to make that clarifying point. WESLEY: So if there's any way to have strictly a cable system with no antennas in town, that that's what an applicant needs to do first to show why they can't just bury a cable instead of putting in a new tower? GRAY: Essentially, yes. And I think you could have a carve-out for, you know, let's just say the lock system or something from the canals. You know, maybe we have a few line-of-sight radio towers that, you know, that's all -- it was, at one point, all controlled by line-of-sight radio towers. Maybe you have a carve-out for that where it's -- you know, it's signal relay, so to speak. But essentially, in this scenario, obviously, the broadband component, if it can be provided via a tethered cabled connection underground in accordance with the original development guidelines, then that provision should prevail. You shouldn't -- we shouldn't allow a towered antenna platform to deliver the same service. I just -- I think the -- I think that that is a unique component of this town. Maybe it's not the most progressive of defining characteristics, but I think it's unique in the same way no streetlights is unique. And I think -- I think I said it last time. I think, you know, we -- somebody -- not me. Somebody was bold once upon a time and said, hey, we're not going to have streetlights around here. It's kind of weird in an energy-hungry era. I think maybe this is kind of the same deal, and maybe we need to stick to those original tenets, and this might be a way to do that outside of the public right-of-way. If, eventually, we fold 16.02 in here somehow, then it's got to come back to the table, but -- see the look he's giving me? WATTS: Um-hum. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 51 of 67 GRAY: And then just one other tangential thought. I think we need to come up with a fact and fiction sheet. And maybe it's five items, maybe it's ten items, but I think we need to define very, very clearly and succinctly what exactly these things are. You know, what are they? What do they do? You know, what's the difference -- you know, people waving cell phones and saying 5G this, I need my 5G, people saying I want to be able to take my Internet connection with me everywhere. It's still wildly unclear to most what all of this is or isn't, and I think we probably need to look at some sort of -- some sort of city-generated, town-generated fact sheet, cheat sheet -- there you go -- cheat sheet that people can reference. I still got the same look, Rick. WATTS: I know. That's because Susan is anxious to ask her question. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. This is a lot. And I have to say, each meeting, we seem to add and change what we're talking about, so it's -- you know, we put in a lot of time to try and learn these -- the different dynamics and such. I think it would be helpful to see the application, and that may answer some of my questions, such as the requirements for insurance and proving -- the burden of proof that there's even a gap in service or no service, that there is even a need. And I know you started to pull it up. So for me, I'd like to see the application, and I think it may help us with a lot of the questions that I have. You talked about inspections. I think that's really important. And the distances. I agree with Commissioner Watts. When you think about an acre could be -- you know, if it's a perfect square, that's 660 feet. You know, I'd like to -- if you have a property that's less than an acre, and we do have many properties that's, you know, a quarter of an acre, you could have multiple antennas or -- I don't know. I mean, it's all very confusing is my point, but I think the application is a missing link here to see what the requirements are and the questions asked there, I guess, would be my primary need. And we had different information in a previous packet of the map of the current towers, and I still have the same question. Like, why isn't fiberoptics an option? Why -- WESLEY: It is. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 52 of 67 DEMPSTER: Okay. WESLEY: If a company wants to come put in fiberoptics, they're welcome to. They are doing it to some degree currently. Doesn't prohibit it. Doesn't discourage it. It's just a different topic. DEMPSTER: Okay. WESLEY: I guess I want to go back to that a little bit. DEMPSTER: Yeah. WESLEY: In January, we'd been talking about one thing -- or I'd been talking about one thing, and that's what amendments to make to Chapter 17, which is wireless telecommunications, towers, and antennas. Others have brought up broadbanding and things in the right-of-way and underground. That's fine. We have a concern about those things. It's good to know that. But the direction is what amendments, if any, do we want to make to Chapter 17, which is the wireless. DEMPSTER: Well, that's putting it in a silo, and all of these other things are very related, and I think that's kind of putting the blinders on this. There are many components to it, and there's a lot of confusion about it. So I don't think we're there yet. WATTS: I couldn't agree more with Commissioner Dempster. And I think had we go back to December-January and said at that point -- this discussion isn't applicable to Chapter 17, and we'd have had that guidance back then, but I think we were all under the impression that broadband was going to be a component of this. But having said that, I think there's a number of additional items that I don't know that we need to get into at this point assuming that Chairman Gray is going to allow me to make a motion that says we're going to continue with the impetus to really rule in -- Article 16.2 into 17 so that it becomes all-inclusive about any type of communication -- wireless communication and any type of antenna. But once we get to that point, then we're going to have more issues to talk about, like how do we protect property values, how do we protect residents? So we've kind of scratched the surface of it, but the motivation right now is that we don't have the consultant's information. We have lots of questions about the existing document the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 53 of 67 way it sits, and for those reasons, that's why I'm going to move to continue until we get more clarification, direction, and the consultant's report. So you let me know when I can do that. And the format. GRAY: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah. And I will follow up on Commissioner Watts' and Commissioner Dempster's comments, and especially Commissioner Dempster where it's confusing. It's incredibly confusing because this isn't my forte. I'm still trying to understand why we're being tasked with this and some of the comments. And I mean, Commissioner Watts was arbitrarily throwing out heights of towers and spacing between towers. Where's the -- where's the professional advice and the help for us? I don't know. I'm at a loss. So I technically -- I will agree with whatever you say as far as a continuance or -- GRAY: Dan, did you have something? KOVACEVIC: I mean, I'm just going to say what everybody else already said, but -- yeah. GRAY: Any comments, Commissioner Corey, Commissioner Dapaah? The floor is yours for a moment. Well, Commissioner Kovacevic couldn't hold back. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I am going to ask. Please reconsider turning over the consultant's report for us so that we can see it. I mean, it's really not fair to us to withhold expert advice and expect us to make a decision when this is -- it's not my field. And so I'm just going to go on record saying please reconsider and let us see the expert advice. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: You're going to help me craft this, aren't you? GRAY: I'll try. WATTS: So I think the motion is to continue until we receive the information regarding the questions that we posed as well as the consultant's information, and at that point, if we can get Article 16.2 wrapped into Chapter 17, I think that's what is going to work best for all of us. It'll help provide some clarity. It'll take away the confusion about the two chapters -- the article and the chapter. And what I don't want to have happen -- and I'll be very honest about this. I'm not sure if tabling this is the best avenue to go, if continuing, postponing. So the terminology is TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 54 of 67 where -- I just don't want it to get out of Planning and Zoning until we have the opportunity to review it, consolidate it, and digest it and get it to Town Council because that would just simply mean that Town Council would have to do exactly the same kind of work in order to be prudent in the decision moving forward. So what is the best motion: continue, postpone, table? GRAY: I think -- WATTS: Continue? GRAY: -- continue, but I think we said last month and I think we said two months ago we weren't going to take up a motion to recommend up or down until the town attorney, at minimum, puts us in a room under admonishment and explains to us why we can't see the report. WATTS: So okay. We could do that, and then we can eliminate all the other ancillary verbiage that says we're not going to -- we're going to -- GRAY: Well, at least if you get to that point, at least if we get there, then we have a fundamental understanding of why we're not in the circle of trust, right? WATTS: That's step one. And then step two is then we have to look at can we get it ruled up. So I almost think that it's easier to have both happen simultaneously. Have 16.2 rolled into 17 so that we have one focus, and then have the same conversation about the consultant and why we aren't privy to the information. GRAY: Or to stick with the format of the ordinances and to be deliberated in the future, but maybe you have mirrored language between 16.2 and 17 ultimately. WATTS: Does it make it more complex? GRAY: As John said, 16 is set up to deal with right-of-way and the municipal side of things. 17 is set up to deal with private property. So you combo them, it accomplishes the goal in isolation here, but it creates a bigger fundamental structure problem of the ordinances. There's going to be a way to skin it. We just don't -- we don't have to make that determination today. But we need -- what you're asking for, I think, is that the small cell component of 16.2 is on the table for consideration and to make a recommendation for enhancement or TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 55 of 67 modification to the Council. You're asking for access to 16.2, jurisdiction to 16.2 to modify. WATTS: It might take two motions, then. Access to that ability -- GRAY: I mean, you only have one agenda item, so you may want to motion -- WATTS: Then I would make the motion to include both, 16.2 into 17 as well as the consultant's information, because you can't make the decision to move forward if you do roll them together unless you have the consultant's recommendations first and foremost. Why do we keep getting it referenced without having that back story, and yet we do. GRAY: I already told you, you're not in the circle of trust. WATTS: I got that. GRAY: Okay. So your motion has got two components to it. WATTS: Yes. GRAY: First component is are you requiring the Commission -- are you requiring the consultant's report? Are you requiring an admonished explanation from the Town's attorney as to why you cannot see the report? Me personally, I would accept that before I would say, I need to see the full report. I think you can still ask for the full report after that, but I think to -- for me, that's what I need to understand to feel comfortable carrying this forward. Maybe there's a good reason. WATTS: So I'd be happy, first and foremost, to have the two combined. So 16.2 and 17 combined, first and foremost. GRAY: So you're making a request of town staff to seek approval from Town Council to fold 16.2 into the discussion with Chapter 17? WATTS: Yes, and that is the essence of the continuation. And once we got the continuation, I was trying to make it easier where if we got the consultant's report at the same time, we wouldn't have to go back because you know we're going to go right back to where's the consultant's report if we are able to get them combined. GRAY: It's okay to have both elements in your motion. WATTS: Okay. Well, then I want both in the motion. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 56 of 67 GRAY: Okay. WATTS: I want both a consolidation of 16.2 and 17 to be combined in addition to -- well, in addition, I want the consultant's reports to be made available to the Planning and Zoning Commission. GRAY: Okay. You're asking town staff to seek approval from the Town Council to allow Planning and Zoning the ability to review Chapter 16 -- WATTS: Article 16. GRAY: -- specifically 16.2 in concert with our review of Chapter 17? WATTS: Right. And just for clarification, it's Article 16.2. GRAY: Okay. And you're also asking for town staff to seek approval from the town attorney and the town manager for -- to allow public access to the Campanelli report, or are you allowing for an explanation in executive session which, then, may result in your request for the report to be released? That's what I need clarification on. My fear is if you ask for the report to be released publicly -- not a fear. What I -- my hypothesis is if you ask for the report to be released publicly, we may not get it. We may just be stalemated here. WATTS: That's what I'm -- that's what I'm pondering. GRAY: But at least if you get to the room, you can ask why can I not see the report without actually adjudicating the report of the ordinance in executive session, which may or may not be illegal. I don't know. WATTS: I would like to have the consultant's report provided to the Planning and Zoning commissioners in executive session so that we can look at it and have a discussion with the town attorney. GRAY: Can't do it, I don't -- John, can we do that or not? WESLEY: Chair, my understanding would be that probably not, but I would have to check for sure with the attorney, but I don't think so. It's -- GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: -- attorneys giving legal advice to the Council, so -- GRAY: So make that request, but then I'm asking you, please, have a subset of it. If that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 57 of 67 doesn't fly, at least get us an explanation. WATTS: Fair enough. GRAY: And the explanation can become an e-session under Rules and Regs. WATTS: I'd be satisfied with that. GRAY: Okay. WATTS: Because we keep referencing it, but we don't have anything, so I want to know why. GRAY: Okay. Clear as -- wow, there's verbatim. WESLEY: Right. The last piece, Chair, is kind of where we started this discussion. Are you continuing, postponing, or tabling? GRAY: We're continuing. WESLEY: Until? GRAY: 60 days. WESLEY: June? July? WATTS: Well, that's middle of summer, and Council is on vacation -- GRAY: Correct. WATTS: -- in the summer, so anything over 30 days, we've got a problem. GRAY: Okay. So do 30 days. WATTS: Can we get an answer in 30 days? I know you're not speaking for, but is that reasonable? GRAY: I think you ought to allow 60. WATTS: Well, then we'll go 60. I'll take your advice and go 60. GRAY: I mean -- WOODWARD: That would be July -- WATTS: It can't hurt to give as much latitude because nothing's going to happen between now and then. And then if we get it, then we can have it on the first Planning and Zoning meeting after -- GRAY: It would be July -- WATTS: When's the first -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 58 of 67 WOODWARD: July 8th -- WATTS: When's the first Planning and Zoning meeting after summer break, Paula? WOODWARD: So you have June 10th, July 8th, and August 12th, and then September 9th. WATTS: So when's Town Council back? WESLEY: 19th of August. WOODWARD: 19th of August. And our meeting for P & Z is August 12th. WATTS: So why don't we make it September, then? That gives you 120 days to get it done. WESLEY: So Mr. Chair and Vice Chair, I'm not sure how this plays into where this is going, but do want to point out one other provision of the ordinance. Zoning Ordinance, Section 2.01.G.1.C. Basically, Planning Commission may continue up to 90 days, and then has to render a decision once you've had a public hearing. WATTS: So if we continue 90 days but Council hasn't been able to convene to be able to render a decision, does Council continue this on our behalf? GRAY: You only have to -- we only have to hear it. You can turn around and continue it for another 90 days. WATTS: I'm looking for John's -- for a head -- to give me a head nod on that. WESLEY: Shall, within 90 days after the date of the original hearing, render its decision in the form of a written recommendation to the Council. GRAY: Isn't that only in response to an applicant, though? WESLEY: It's not specific to -- GRAY: It's not? Okay. WESLEY: And if we're talking about wrapping in 16.2, that becomes a new ordinance, a new notice, and so that might start the clock over again. So there's little caveats in here, but I did want to throw that out so you are aware of it, not surprise you with it later if we learn, well, you really should have acted on it. GRAY: I think, under that interpretation, we've already run the clock out. WESLEY: No, because this started -- this is your first public hearing tonight. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 59 of 67 GRAY: Oh, okay. WESLEY: So it starts your 90 days. WOODWARD: 90 days would be August 9th. WESLEY: August? WOODWARD: 8th, 9th, 10th. WESLEY: Yeah. WOODWARD: Whatever day you're looking at. WESLEY: Looking at maybe, like, the 7th and your meeting's on the 8th or something like that, but -- GRAY: So if we go to August and we get no feedback from the Council, clock's up, and we default a recommendation to do nothing at that point. WESLEY: I would -- the couple basic questions that you asked, I would hope we could have that answer for you in June. WATTS: Well, let's give ample time anyway. Let's move it until August. That gives plenty of time in case we don't have an answer, and there's time for some discussion. GRAY: If I understand John correctly, though, we go to August. Somebody -- well, if four of us don't like what we have on the table in August and we can't do it via amendment here that night, we're done. So -- WATTS: So back it back down, then, into July. GRAY: Into July so we have one more -- WATTS: Right. One more opportunity to discuss. Okay. July works. WOODWARD: July 8th. KOVACEVIC: All right. Now I'm confused. Didn't I hear you say that wrapping 16.2 into 17 is a new ordinance? WESLEY: If we are given direction to do that, and so we're starting back over and have to hold another new public hearing because it's a different ordinance, I think that would start the clock over. KOVACEVIC: So we could ask you to do that and start the clock again? WESLEY: Town Council or at least the City Manager would need to give me direction to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 60 of 67 do that. KOVACEVIC: Can you get the answer to that question? WESLEY: Yes, I can. When? I would think that wouldn't take very long. KOVACEVIC: Okay. WESLEY: I can't guarantee that. KOVACEVIC: So I guess what I'm thinking is we can get -- we can start the clock again, so we don't need to go all the way to August and get -- GRAY: Well, I think tonight, though, you have to leave yourself -- in my opinion, you got to leave -- we have to leave ourselves the opportunity to adjust one more time, which is what going to July would afford. If the Town Manager or the Council says no, leave it at 17, they're all done. At least then we get July. That's our last crack at modifications, and then we have to take an up-down vote on it in August. If we go all the way to August, we'd be here until 2 a.m. because we're going to have to hash everything out right here and take an up-down vote on it. If it plays out that Town Manager or Council says, sure, fold it in, yeah, then all that's up. But I think tonight, we have to say -- well, we're either okay with going to August and pulling the all-nighter potentially, or we hedge a little bit and we say let's target July and buy ourselves, you know, one more -- one more do-over. KOVACEVIC: I'd rather hedge. GRAY: I would, too. WATTS: Yeah. And since it's my motion -- GRAY: Well, I mean -- yeah. So sorry. WATTS: I'm going with July. So July seems to work. And that gives us an opportunity, then, to convince Town Council, directly or indirectly, but it also -- to me, it makes the whole process easier because, like I said, an antenna is an antenna is an antenna. So that's what I want to do. That's my motion. GRAY: Okay. WATTS: Okay? GRAY: Anybody want to second your motion? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 61 of 67 DAPAAH: I have a question for John on this. John, it's clear that we are all perplexed. We've been confused about this for some time now. Would it be right to say that the Council members are clear on this after meeting with the expert, that they have a better understanding on this matter than we do? GRAY: That's a good question. WESLEY: Chair, Commissioner, I don't know that I'm in a position to answer that question. I think this commission has certainly, over the last few months, spent more time with it than the Council has, but the Council looked at that particular proposal and found that it wasn't meeting the needs of what they were expecting or thought was needed by the Town. DAPAAH: Okay. Because it seems we're just being pushed to make a recommendation that we may not be clear on, and so -- okay. Well, I'll leave it there. GRAY: Yeah. I mean, I think that if we get to July or we get to August and -- you know, folding 16.2 into 17, I don't know. 50-50 whether they allow that. But if they say no access to that report with no explanation to it, then we're going to have to make a judgment call on whether or not we step back and say, sorry, no recommendation without the -- without all the cards in the deck or whether we want to roll the dice a little bit. Commissioner? DEMPSTER: Let me ask you a quick question. Can we go back to a previous Town Council meeting where they discussed the report, or was that done in executive session? WESLEY: Executive session. DEMPSTER: Okay. On what premise -- I thought executive session would be for, like, HR. What category would that fall under for executive session? WESLEY: Chair, Commissioner Dempster, I'm not the attorney to remember all those nuances, but it was reviewing the work product of a legal document that was submitted. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: So are you going to amend? WATTS: No. I'm going to follow up with Commissioner Dempster. And I thought TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 62 of 67 executive session precluded working in ordinance. I thought that had to be done in the transparency of the public. So can they talk about -- and that's what becomes so confusing. If Town Council members were actually working to generate an ordinance or develop it, then that wasn't what they were doing? Just simply discussing the product that the consultant -- whether or not it fit? And it may not fit in 17. It may fit in 16 and vice versa. So whatever transpired, again, becomes more confusing. So I have no amendment, and I'd like to make that -- GRAY: Still looking for a friend here. WATTS: Oh, that's right. DEMPSTER: I second the motion. GRAY: All right. Motion on the table from Commissioner Watts for verbatim transcript, seconded by Commissioner Dempster. Roll call vote, please, Paula. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? WOODWARD: Aye. GRAY: Were you both nay? I couldn't hear. DAPAAH: Yeah. GRAY: Okay. DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? WATTS: Aye. GRAY: Hold on. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 63 of 67 WATTS: Aye. GRAY: He forgot again, Paula. WOODWARD: Okay. Chair Gray? GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Five-two. GRAY: Could I ask what you guys were looking for? DAPAAH: I'm not sure if we want to continue sitting on this. I'd rather we -- I'd actually rather that we forfeit this and pass it -- pass it on to the Council members. It seems they may know more than what we -- GRAY: Turn your mic on. DAPAAH: Yeah. I'm sorry. And we should perhaps stick to just, you know, land use and have them focus on everything else, yeah, because this is just dragging on way too long, and we -- for all these months, we still haven't come to a clear understanding on this, and we're not getting the information we need. So how much longer? What, 90 days, 60 days? We're just going to keep prolonging this discussion and -- yeah. GRAY: Okay. WATTS: Can I comment? GRAY: Sure. WATTS: So I can certainly appreciate your concern, but the work of a commission is to do the heavy lifting and make the recommendation to the Council. I guarantee you that even though we may all not understand all of the nuances of 5G, cellular, broadband, all of those things, no disrespect to Council, but nor do they. And it's our job to delve into the details to understand exactly what's going on, to make the recommendation, and then for the Town Council to tweak it. So I -- DAPAAH: Well, if they -- if they didn't, they would -- they would reach out and help us with the expertise that we requested, and for whatever reason, we're not getting it. GRAY: He's got a point. DAPAAH: Okay? So we -- how long are we just going to -- GRAY: We aren't getting -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 64 of 67 WATTS: I know. DAPAAH: -- continue to debate on this matter. I'd rather we just move it on to them. It seems they have a better understanding on it. GRAY: I think you're right. I mean, I appreciate your explanation because I concur with you, but I do think -- I think we should -- well, my opinion, we should hold out on this and exhaust all possible options. It's like -- it's like going to the NBA draft, right? It's like play another year or go. You exhaust all your playing options at one level before it goes up, and I think that's here. This is a huge topic. Maybe not to some. But there's a lot of downstream impacts or implications from this, and I wouldn't -- I don't want to leave 60 days on the clock kind of thing. So I absolutely appreciate where you're coming from, though. DAPAAH: Yeah. But right as we sit here, do we actually -- are we confident that we will get more information on this? GRAY: No. DAPAAH: So why wait? WATTS: It's worth a shot. It's worth -- okay. We have, effectively, a fiduciary obligation to our -- to the Town constituents, right, all of them, to protect their best interest, and that best interest is property values, the unintended consequence of making a decision that we really don't know and why we don't know. And I'll use the example of asbestos one more time. 50 years ago, we didn't know how bad asbestos was. Now we do. And there are billion-dollar suits because of the impact. They were devastating impacts. So what if -- somebody that has the technical understanding and the legal understanding of how to best protect our constituents today, don't we have that obligation to continue to explore it to make sure we do the best we can possibly do? That's where I'm coming from. So I'm willing to waive another 60 days, work harder, keep studying, and keep promoting Town Council to say you got to do your job, too. Give us -- give us the tools to be able to do our job. GRAY: All right. Shall we move on? Good idea. WATTS: Yeah. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 65 of 67 GRAY: All right Number 8, Commission Discussion, Request of Research to Staff. I think we pretty well covered that in Agenda Item 7. Anything else we want to throw on the whiteboard? Agenda 9, Summary of Commission Request from the Development Services Director and Report. WESLEY: Oh, Commissioners, just a heads-up. For your June meeting, we do have a rezoning request. That will be on that agenda. Anything else, Farhad, that you know of? I guess the -- I guess -- yeah, the General Plan report revisions to come back to you, so -- GRAY: What's the rezone? WESLEY: Rezone is on Indigo. GRAY: What is it? WESLEY: On Indigo. You haven't got it yet, so -- GRAY: Oh, okay. WATTS: It's just -- those are the key lots? WESLEY: They will be. WATTS: Yeah. WESLEY: Okay. So that's going to be -- GRAY: Okay. DEMPSTER: Thanks, John. GRAY: Thank you. We're adjourned. What? Oh, sorry. Commissioner? COREY: I'm sorry. John, I don't know if everybody agrees with me here, but the PowerPoint presentations are very effective. I'm wondering if there's any way that we could possibly get those with the agendas. Is there any way that we can kind of get a sneak peek of that? Because it summarizes the content really well, and I think that I would better understand the agenda if I could look at that PowerPoint in advance. WESLEY: Chairperson, Commissioner, I would sure love to share those with you in advance if I had them ready in advance. Usually, like this one, I finished it up, like, 3 o'clock this afternoon. COREY: Okay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 66 of 67 WESLEY: So unfortunately, it usually is, you know, after we get the report finished and, okay, what did we actually end up with and settle with in the report so now I can prepare a PowerPoint that can go with it. If we get it done earlier, we could send it out to you so that you would have it. We can try to keep that in mind. But usually, it's the same day as the meeting that we're finishing them up. COREY: Then I think, yeah, if they're -- if you had it ready early, we -- I think we would all appreciate it. WESLEY: Certainly, if it's helpful, we could send it out to you after the fact, if that's still helpful, but -- WOODWARD: Chair, Director Wesley, actually, the post-action agenda, those PowerPoints have been added to the agenda item as an attachment. GRAY: Okay. (Indiscernible). WOODWARD: So you now can go back and look at those. But because we don't get them always in time with -- for the packet, I can't post until after the fact once they've been given. WATTS: Just -- GRAY: Yeah, I -- sorry. Go ahead. WATTS: Just as an FYI, I was ecstatic to get the agenda -- I think it was on Thursday, might have been Wednesday -- WOODWARD: Um-hum. WATTS: -- rather than get it on Friday at 5 o'clock and my entire weekend is gone. So it was really nice to get it, so I do appreciate that. GRAY: Yeah, but then you burned her with it. WATTS: I'm going to pay the price. I get it. I get it. GRAY: I agree with Commissioner Corey. I like them, too, and I think even if we did get them a couple hours ahead, being able to tie your notes back to that at least, you know, to link that is valuable because my notes don't necessarily follow the cadence or the structure there. So if possible. No pressure. All right. Let's adjourn. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MAY 13, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 67 of 67 WATTS: Perfect. Thank you.