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HomeMy WebLinkAbout240812 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 42 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes August 12, 2024 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 42 CHAIR GRAY: Commissioners, ready? All right. Let's go ahead and call this meeting to order. If you would all please stand for the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. CHAIR GRAY: Thank you. Paula, roll call, please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? CHAIR GRAY: Here. Thank you, Paula. Agenda item 3: call to the public. Any open speaker cards, Paula? WOODWARD: No, Chair. CHAIR GRAY: Thank you. Quickly on to 4: consideration and possible action to approve the meeting minutes from July 8th, 2024. Commissioners, any discussion? Or a motion, please? VICE CHAIR WATTS: I'll move to approve as submitted. COREY: Second. CHAIR GRAY: Moved and seconded. All in favor? ALL: Aye. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 42 WOODWARD: Seven, zero. CHAIR GRAY: Thank you. Number 5. Hold a public hearing and consideration with possible action on a special use permit for a property at 12005 North Panorama to allow residential use in a commercially-zoned property. Mr. Wesley, your presentation, please? WESLEY: Yes, Commissioners. Good evening. Good to see you this evening. Oops. I didn't want to move through it that fast. So the request this evening is for consideration of a possible allowance special use permit for residential in a C-3 zone. Just a little background. The property area is zoned C-3. It was platted in 1973. The lots developed in the late 80s. Current office building on the site with 12 suites. It's been vacant for a few years. New property owners requesting residential use of the building. As the commission is aware, the C-3 zoning district does not allow for residential uses by right. Options include either rezoning to a residential multifamily zone that would allow it or requesting a special use permit, and that's the option that the property owner has chosen. So here you can see the map with the lot highlighted and the zoning around the area. So all the immediate area is zoned C-3. But you go a little further out either across Saguaro or to the east down by the wash, and there is some multifamily in those locations. Land uses in the area; you can see on the map a lot of commercial outdoor storage rather intense type of commercial activities going on in the immediate area. General plan for the area does look for a variety of housing options in town. I won't read all these statements to you, but we are looking for a mix of different types of residential to occur in different areas of the town. We're also looking for that mix of residential and employment, commercial uses. And the specific character area really anticipates a mix of nonresidential uses. Section 2.02 F1d of the Zoning Ordinance sets out the criteria for the commission to consider for a special use permit. And the underlying piece is the parts that the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 42 commission is specifically tasked to looking at and making a recommendation. We'll go through each of those here briefly. So first of all, will the proposed use be detrimental to the public health safety, peace, comfort of the neighborhood? So reuse of these buildings for residential uses is not likely to have a detrimental impact on the health, safety, or peace of people living in the neighborhood, there aren't any immediate residential neighbors of this, but they're not likely to have an impact on them. But there's potential for them having an impact -- as we'll talk about a little more in a minute -- on those working in the neighborhood. Will residential use of this property be detrimental or injurious to the current commercial property improvements? So as noted with the land use around this area, with the auto repairs, the storage, the commercial activities, or construction type activities, those particular types of commercial activities can generate a lot of noise, dust, dirt, activity at odd hours, and so forth, and so that may not really be conducive to a residential setting. Future residents of the apartments may find those uses annoying and be a bother to them. On the other hand, getting an active use of this property may stimulate other developments or redevelopments in the area for higher and better uses. Will the neighborhood provide a desirable living environment for the residents? So again, the surrounding uses could create a challenging environment. It's not really an urban mixed use kind of area where you can see that residential use integrated with a variety of other commercial activities. There's limited sidewalk connections in the area for somebody to get out and walk through the area. But there is close proximity to some commercial along Saguaro, parks in the area, and does have direct access to an overall street network to get to other places in town. As required by the Code, the applicant has provided a good neighbor statement discussing how they will manage the construction or redevelopment of the property for the residential use, how they'll manage the parking, and how they will contribute to neighborhood safety and maintain the property. They are also required to go through the citizen participation process, where they notified property owners within 300 feet of their application and held a neighborhood TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 42 meeting. They had one person come to that meeting who had support for the project. We have received a couple of emails that were in your packet of some of the neighbors who have the concerns about the impact this use could have on the residential activities, or again, kind of the reverse, the impact their residential activities may have on their commercial activities in terms of, again, the noise and so forth, they generate may be negative for the residents. So with regard to what the ordinance requires for the commission to find, there is some concern that this proposal meets those standards, that it might not be a good fit with the surrounding uses, but again, would utilize an existing vacant building, would provide additional variety of housing types and options, and might stimulate other reuse in the general area. So that is my quick presentation. I could answer questions if you have them now. Commissioners, the applicant does have a presentation that they would like to make and a few speakers. CHAIR GRAY: Let's go ahead and see the applicant's presentation. ENOS: Thank you. Honorable commissioners. Good evening. My name is Chris Enos. I'm an attorney. I confess to that. And I represent Art Tolis and Heather Tolis. Art and Heather are contract vendees for the property that's under consideration, 12005 North Panorama Drive. And as such, we are making this application as an essential part of the requirements to be able to follow through on that contract for the purchase of the property. So the preparation that you see here, I'll explain before they present it, is not for a rezoning. I think that's important to note. It's for what's -- acknowledgment of what is a permitted, specially permitted use for the zoning. Now, that's important because the underpinning for that legally are very different. What we have to show here is that it's going to be a use that will be beneficial overall. That's basically the legal standard. Unlike a rezoning, where you have to show that there are a lot of other hoops that you have to jump through. We don't have to jump through them here. Nonetheless, we want to be a good neighbor, so we are going to show to this board, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 42 we're going to show that the permitted use is the one that should be permitted here. And before I do that, I'm just going to say that. This, as has been noted, is vacant. It's not being used. It has no use right now and nobody has any use for it. And yet look at it. It's a beautiful -- excuse me -- a beautiful building. So all I can say is when an existing use has become disused, well, then I guess the town has to be practical in seeking to permit those uses that may be more able to be addressed. And so what's to consider? Well, the staff report says it all. And, of course, we support the staff report. If you look at it, they say, okay, well yeah, it's in a commercial zone. And if you look at the commercial zone, though, and look where it is, it's very close to Saguaro, where there are restaurants and other amenities that people would tend to like if they're in an apartment. And one of the things I like to do is to see where other places in town have had this. The most recent of which was on January 17th of this year, when the town board considered a very large residential use for a very commercial area. And, in fact, they rezoned it, which you're -- I'm asking you to do. They rezoned it for that purpose, down on Technology Drive and Shea Boulevard. So this is -- that was a residential use. It was being put where there wasn't any residential use before, but there was a need for it, and the town approved of it. So we're not asking for anything that's out of line. We're asking for something that merely requires somebody to look at it and say, okay, what you have here hasn't worked. Let's give this a try. And as a result, Mr. Tolis has, basically, invested his money and time into showing how this could be done. Now, I'm going to introduce Mr. Ted Peterson, who is from PF Design Group, who has the particulars as to the way we envision it right now, how this is going to be done. It doesn't necessarily have to be precisely this way, but it has to be -- the use has to be authorized for it. So when you see the presentation and you look at, well, okay, that floor, maybe you can move a wall, do something like that. That's not as important as the overall use being able to be utilized. Walls can be moved. The fire marshal will have something to say about everything. They already have -- they've already consulted with Peter Johnson, who's had some suggestions with regard to some of the walls and TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 42 everything where they are. And quite frankly, that's not for your concern. No disrespect, but your concern is whether or not the overall use being permitted here will help the area. And that's basically what we're trying to do. We're trying to help the area. So with that, and I'm going to introduce Mr. Ted Peterson, who will now explain the current plans as we have outlined them. PETERSON: Hello. My name is Ted Peterson. Sorry. So this is a -- this is a site plan of it. It's already set up into six suites on two different levels. They're all approximately just around 800 square feet. We looked at utilizing each individual suite as two-bedroom apartments. We tried to organize it so that we weren't changing the physical structure of the building. We utilized the existing windows and tried to organize the bedrooms around that, so they all had egress out of them. And it has a courtyard space in the middle of it that is right now is just kind of a gravel setup. So we wanted -- as a residential component, we tried to make that, like, a green space. And that's this area in the middle there that we're showing. This is existing. How it is as it is right now. They're basically open. Some of them have some interior walls. There is plumbing in every suite. There's a bathroom and a sink. So we utilize the -- we already have the plumbing there. So we were able to try to locate the bathrooms as close as possible and use what we have. Here's the proposed new layout for it. So you can see each suite's a little bit different. The top two, they have a electrical room in the top two corners of the space. So we're stuck with those. We had to work around those. But as you can see, the bedrooms are all set up with egress windows out, so that we didn't have to change any of the structure of the building. We were able to reuse that. Here's a 3D version of it so you can see a little bit clearer how it lays out. And then some more 3D images of it. You can see that courtyard space in this area right here. Gives it a little bit more residential feel to it. A little bit not so cold. That's it. It's the last page. Any questions? CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? SVEUM: What about reuse of the solar? Are you going to continue? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 42 PETERSON: Yes, we will. We were planning on reusing it. Yes. I don't have particulars on how much power it generates or what the component of it, but it's a -- it is an asset to the building that would be utilized. SVEUM: What part of the utility are you planning to have it to serve? Are these separately metered units? Are they -- PETERSON: They are. SVEUM: -- are they separate furnaces and so on, or air conditioning systems? PETERSON: Yes, they are separate. I don't know how the solar -- I don't know how the solar is set up to whether -- how it's generated or where it's stored, or if it goes per suite or if it's just a common thing for the building. So I don't particularly know how it's generated, but it is an asset of the building that would be -- that would be utilized. SVEUM: Well, how was it used before? PETERSON: I don't know how the current tenant used it. SVEUM: Okay. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: All right, Chair. Mr. Peterson, you mentioned reusing the existing windows. PETERSON: Yes. DAPAAH: Most of them do not open. How are you going to address that for a residential use? PETERSON: They'll be replaced -- they'll be replaced with operable windows, but we won't be making the -- we won't need to make the size bigger. We won't need to increase the size of it. So we won't need to change the structure of the building for that -- DAPAAH: Good. PETERSON: -- particular reason, so yeah. But they will need to be -- they will need to be able to be opened for fire egress and things like that. DAPAAH: Very good. How are you going to address handicap accessibility to comply with ADA for the second floors in particular? And then, in the back there's quite a drop TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 42 from the sidewalk. Do you have any plan for that? PETERSON: There is a drop. There are currently ramps there. I noticed that they aren't -- there isn't handrails or anything on it, so it would have to be up -- bring it up to code. DAPAAH: Yeah. PETERSON: I don't believe that every suite has to be ADA accessible. So second floor -- would be something that wouldn't be. DAPAAH: Right. PETERSON: So there would be six individual units on the ground floor that would accommodate that. DAPAAH: When was this structure built? PETERSON: I believe I heard it was, I think, 1980, I think Mr. Wesley had said. DAPAAH: When? PETERSON: 1980, I believe. DAPAAH: '80? Are we sure of that? COREY: Late '80s, I think, it said in the slide. WESLEY: I had that in the slide. I remember the numbers now without going back to that slide. DAPAAH: Okay. All right. Just wondering if there are any concerns for hazardous material like -- PETERSON: I'm sorry. DAPAAH: Just wondering if you would have to abate, get rid of some hazardous materials like asbestos and those kind of things that can be another concern. PETERSON: It's possible, I guess. We'd have to investigate that. DAPAAH: And that's all a brick structure? PETERSON: It is. DAPAAH: All right. Well, thank you. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Schlossberg? PETERSON: Anybody else? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 42 SCHLOSSBERG: : Yeah. I don't really have any -- I was just going to make a comment. I mean, if we're still taking questions, I can wait for my comments. But -- CHAIR GRAY: Go ahead. SCHLOSSBERG: -- I was so intrigued by this project, I actually asked to have a tour of the project. And it -- I mean, I think the use that's being planned is pretty spectacular. The construction of the road is, I guess, it's nearing completion almost. So the sidewalks are already out in front of there. I mean, there's easy access to Saguaro. You've got access to restaurants; you've got access to Sapori. You got access to the convenience store up there, easy walking. And I went there purposely during business hours, and it was around 10 a.m. and the sounds of silence were all I heard. So I didn't hear any kind of body shop working going on or anything crazy like that. So I visited several of the units, and I mean, there's actually pretty awesome views from the upstairs units of Four Peaks and some of the others. So it's I think -- it's I think it's a well thought out, and I think it's much needed in town, especially depending on what happens with some of the other projects, whether they come to fruition or not. So I think this one's well done and well thought out. CHAIR GRAY: How are you going to vote on it, Scott? SCHLOSSBERG: I don't know. I don't know what I'm going to do. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Somewhere along the line I heard 1973. John, and this may be to you. '73 was when it was zoning only from C-3? WESLEY: That was when it was platted. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Platted. And when was it actually zoned C-3? WESLEY: Original zone. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. So the special use permit is an overlay to the C-3 zoning, then? Yes? Thank you. Why has it been vacant? And this is probably for the applicant. Why has it been vacant for so long with no resident or no occupants, actually? PETERSON: I don't know the answer to that. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 42 TOLIS: Thank you, Chairman Gray and commissioners, my name is Art Tolis. My wife, Heather Tolis. And we are the applicants. So the building was built in 1988. The solar panels currently have -- all their units, is that utility closet that Ted had indicated that we had to have a carve-out for. Peter Johnson had come to the building when we were in the initial stages of putting this deal together, and I wanted to make sure that there weren't any hurdles that we couldn't overcome. So Peter came to the building. He went through the building, and he did a little checklist with us as to some of the issues that we need to make sure we resolve. One of which was that utility area which we have with the architectural drawings. Other issues that had been brought up was those sidewalks in the back. And he had suggested to us to just make a small partial wall so that that's not actually a sidewalk on the back of the building, so that it's separated, so it's not a sidewalk. So that you would not be utilizing it as a sidewalk. The other question that you had was the metering in the utilities. Each one of these units is separately metered for electrical and the solar. So as part of the rents that are going to be -- we're going to be moving forward with that will be an offset to the utilities to the tenants that rent this property. Right now, it's about a net zero cost of the utilities in the building. The air conditioners have been going all summer long. So the building is relatively vacant. The current owner of the building that has a computer company, he has been the owner since the '90s. So all of those units had been utilized for his computer company. When he sold his computer company, the property has been effectively vacant and for sale with no buyers. So that's where my wife and I had come originally to look at this building and thinking of the different needs that we have, not only for the businesses that we own in Fountain Hills, but we also have six children that are all renting elsewhere. And when you look for rentals and you look for properties in town, there are not a lot of options. So we walked through this building, and I really felt that it was highest and best use was for the apartments. And as Commissioner Schlossberg had indicated, I too have been going to this building TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 42 on a regular basis, and this has been for months, and I have been parking in a parking lot, and I have been listening from the inside, from the outside, and I have not at one time heard anything that I would think would be a detrimental situation for a tenant that would be complaining. Our attorney, Chris Enos, I also had provided a sample of a lease addendum that would indicate that this is C-3 zoning and it is special use for residential, and that the tenants need to be aware that unlike a completely 100 percent residential area, there may be times when you do have some noise, and there may be times that it's a little bit louder than the norm would be. I laugh with -- my wife and I, we live up behind the high school, and pickleball is louder than probably anything I've heard at this property so far. And we live with pickleball noise on a regular basis. So if there's any other questions for me, I'd be happy to try to answer. I've done a lot of research. My wife and I have invested in a lot of those types of inspections and things that are necessary to move forward with this process. Be happy to answer any questions. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Just a couple more. You did the 300-foot outreach to the adjoining neighbors. How many were yes? How many were no? TOLIS: There was only one that called in for the meeting. And that was Andrea next door. That's Jamie and Andrea, the automotive dealership, Mike's Automotive, they live up in northern Arizona, and they were interested in the project, and I spoke to her for a good 20 minutes. I was actually in -- I was actually out of town myself, and my wife was at the building. And they thought, you know what? This is great. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Supportive then? TOLIS: So they were supportive at the time, yes. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. And two more questions. How does the project help the area in your estimation? Because it's so heavily commercial right now when you go to the Enterprise and Panorama? TOLIS: So when I think of a heavily commercial area, I think of when I lived in Boston, Massachusetts, in an apartment on Commonwealth Avenue, and there was a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 42 tremendous amount of noise and activity on a 24/7. And when I drive through this area, it's actually pretty peaceful. And you have a storage unit across the street for RVs. You have a little yard in the back on the right, across the street, that it looks like they store some equipment and things of that nature. But has not been -- I haven't heard a lot of noise coming from that. You have the water company next door. I have hardly ever seen anyone even there when I was down there. And then you have Mike's Automotive and Mike's Automotive has their normal activity that you'd have with cars and things of that nature. So I've lived in much busier and much louder areas myself. So for me, I think to myself, well, maybe this is actually going to create housing for businesses that are in that surrounding area. And if I have an automotive shop or if I have a repair company, maybe this is an area where when I'm advertising for employment, that I can say there is a property that has twelve units that's coming up in line, and it's expected to be certificate of occupancy as of April 1st. And this might be a great area that you can live in. So I see it as a benefit. It's .3 miles away from Fountain Park. You can walk to Fountain Park in four minutes. I've done it on a regular basis. And the sidewalk is actually right across the street that walks down, and then you connect right on that corner right past the water company. So it's a ten-second walk to the sidewalk that leads you directly to Fountain Park. And then, on the other side, you have all the restaurants that has already been discussed that you have a lot of the deli, the convenience store. So I think it's a very nice property. And I think it's an attractive place for people to rent, and I think it would be a good fit for the area. And we plan to make it very desirable. And one thing that the architect had not brought up that we have discussed is that there is a utility easement in the back that is maybe about 15 feet by about 50, and that area, we're going to make it nice and cleaned out and make it so that if someone had a small dog that was in this apartment complex, like any other apartment complex, someplace where they might walk the dog. The dog park and Desert Vista Park is also right around the corner from this property. So there's a lot of amenities that anyone who would TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 42 want to live in a residential area, I think it would be a desirable spot. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Have you considered any of the landscaping in front of the project to buffer any of the sound? Because I think the storage yard is a town storage yard, and that activity starts early in the morning. So buffering. And then, I think some of the apartments could generate their own noise that would be disturbing the neighbors. So do you have a plan to do anything on the front? TOLIS: Haven't really discussed that. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I think it's a consideration. TOLIS: There's a big -- right now, there's some big pine trees in the front. The evergreens that are in the front of this building currently. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I missed those. TOLIS: Yeah. There's one on the right side, there's one on the left side -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. TOLIS: -- as well. And then on the around the sides of the building there are oleanders that are surrounding the property on the right and the left. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. And it sounds like you've already got tenants lined up with your kids; all six or eight of them are going -- right? Is that what it is? TOLIS: I at least have two. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. TOLIS: At least 2 of the 12 units -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: It sounded like it. TOLIS: Yeah. VICE CHAIR WATTS: All right. Thank you. TOLIS: Anything else? CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Art. I also visited the property because I read that the sound was an issue, and I wanted to get a first-hand look at that myself. I didn't go during the week. I went yesterday at 2 p.m., so it was a Sunday. But I really wanted to get my own perspective on what that sound was like. And it was -- it was very quiet. I TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 42 drove around. I also stood outside the property and went into the courtyard area. And even Art was able to show me inside some of the units, and it was surprisingly quiet. Given, it was a Sunday, but it was quiet. So I think that, you know, there's other properties that are along Saguaro, even that are right on the road, could even be noisier than something like this. So that was my primary concern and wanting to hear that. But as I drove around, I noticed that, like Art mentioned, it is close to the dog park. There is a sidewalk on the property. The road is newly paved. It is also, I don't know if we saw the map, but it's close proximity to other, like, residential properties. So even though it's situated kind of in commercial, it's still also very close to other residential properties; I think that's important. And like Art mentioned, it's right behind the deli store and it's also a close walk to Fountain Park. So those are some of the things I looked for; is this in a good -- is this in a good position? Would people want to live in a place like this? And it looks like they could still walk around and enjoy some of the amenities. So is it suitable for residential use? I think it is. I'm glad that you brought up, though, that when you're renting it, having something in the rental agreement that might say that where it's located, you might hear some noise. That's my major concern is to make sure that people know that going in, so they don't end up coming to us later saying it's too loud over here. But from what I heard at 2 o'clock on a Sunday, it was very quiet. And I've been to other places in town where my friends live, and it's not nearly that quiet. So I don't think that's a concern. And then I just wanted to call out a few other things. Some of the things that I would look for is, as John mentioned, it does align with the general plan. It supports a variety of housing options, and the housing needs. We have the housing need. And I think this is a unique change in what it currently is today and what it could be in the future. It's a strategic use of underutilized space. Right now it's office space. It's been like that for a long time. Not used. So I love seeing that we can repurpose something that we already have. And I think we talk about balancing preservation of land with development. I love seeing when we can convert something that already exists into a new use. So I think TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 42 that that's good. And then also mixed use. Like I mentioned before, this is in a place that if people live there, they can walk to other places. So mixed use isn't always necessarily -- like we talk about where you're living on top and there's commercial property on the bottom, but it could be that you're living within a neighborhood of the deli store or some of the other restaurants. And surprisingly, a lot is within walking distance here. So I think that would be a benefit to people that may want to rent there. So I think overall, especially after having visited in-person, it's interesting, Art, that the layout is almost like they weren't sure what they were going to do with it. And then when they built it anyways, it could have been residential at the time, just the uniqueness of the six properties on the bottom and the six properties on the top. So I think if it was converted to residential, it still would make a nice use. I think people would think that the layout was conducive to a residential setting. So yeah. TOLIS: For the record, I'd also add that during our process of investigating the feasibility of this, we had builder Dennis Brown, who will be the general contractor on the building, and then we had Peter Johnson come out, as I indicated. And we also had Dave Ott from the fire department come out. So everything has been evaluated as to what the requirements would be. And we feel we can achieve them, and we can make this happen. COREY: Okay. Thank you. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Hi. Art, the prior owner of the building, you said sold his computer company and then put the building up for sale. Has anybody tried to make this work as office space? TOLIS: I don't know what offers this seller may have had in the past, but I do know that it was on the market for quite some time, and that no one stepped forward with an offer that was acceptable to move this to having commercial use in the property. KOVACEVIC: So he never tried to lease the individual suites as office space himself? TOLIS: Not that I'm aware of. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 42 KOVACEVIC: Okay. My concern, or we don't have much in town in the way of C-3 zoning; there just isn't much. And to put residential into the heart of the C-3 zoning we do have and the lot -- there's a vacant lot to the south and west you'd access from Tioga. I think having residential, a border with residential would severely limit the use of that property. And that's my concern, is that we're hamstringing the other C-3 users. Somebody wants to put a landscape business in there and run their trucks, for example, at 6 o'clock in the morning. Now, all of a sudden, you have 12 residents, you have 12 voters that don't want that in their backyard, literally, in their backyard. And that's my concern because -- and my concern and I understand what counsel said about not asking for a rezoning, but you're in essence rezoning not just this property but the properties around it. Because when you try to bring in an intense commercial use, now you're going to have a lot of objection. And I that's my concern. TOLIS: Have at it. ENOS: I will. Okay. Again, the best question -- and they're all great questions. You're all great questioners. God bless you. But the best one was why is this vacant? That was Commissioner Watts. And he says why is it vacant? Well, it turns out that these are offices that nobody needs, nobody wants, in a building that's been long constructed. We don't have any other way to make it desirable other than to make it desirable to prospective tenants. You're not going to have a mortuary come and move in there. You're not going to have a gravel business come and move in there. It's a building. It's already there. It looks residential, and it probably should have been residential to begin with. And again, I must point out, I have case -- lawyers bring law with them. In the Sandblom v. Corbin it was quoted: "The issuance of a special use permit is generally recognized as an administrative act. Because even though the permit may authorize a change in the property's use, such use is already sanctioned by the provisions of the existing ordinance upon approval of the proper administrative authorities", namely you and the town council. So "as a result, the public is not affected to as great a degree by the issuance of these permits", such as this, "as they would be in cases of change of zoning, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 42 because they're already on notice that these special uses are permissible by the administrative decree." In other words, the difference between this and a rezoning, if you bought a property that had to be rezoned. So hey, they're rezoning a property. I moved in here not thinking anything was going to ever happen. In this case, it's already on a matter of record that this is a specially permitted use, and anybody who would buy property adjacent or work on property adjacent or do anything adjacent to it is on notice that this could be specially permitted use. I didn't say that. That's what the court said. So all I can say is -- CHAIR GRAY: Mr. Enos, let's save the closing arguments. Let's open up the public hearing. We have any speaker cards, Paula? WOODWARD: We do, Chair. We have three speakers. The first speaker is Matthew Corrigan. The next speaker would be Shelby Blecker. And on deck after that's Jared Trulson (ph.). CORRIGAN: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. I am Matthew Corrigan, homeowner and full-time resident here in Fountain Hills, and I want to thank you for your volunteer time and effort and work in the Planning and Zoning Commission. I have also visited the site, the office building at 12005 North Panorama Drive, and acknowledge that the area described by the staff is C-3 zoning, including outdoor storage, auto repair, mixed retail, and a couple of restaurants. By the way, the conceptual plans from PF Design Group are very appealing. They're very attractive and compelling. But in keeping with the general plan vision on page 14 in mind, describing a variety of housing options that are available in safe, quiet, pleasant, and enjoyable neighborhoods. This is maybe not that. C-3 zoning district is described as the most intense commercial district in Fountain Hills. And the neighborhood is just that, very commercial: EPCOR, water, and office, storage, yard, auto repair, and other commercial businesses. This is not residential. According to staff question number 3 -- the question is, is residential use designed and established in a manner that creates a desirable living environment? In a manner compatible with the adjacent development and supportive of the general welfare of the town? Again good question. The report also notes, in this type of heavy commercial TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 42 area, higher levels of noise and activity are anticipated and expected. The introduction of people living in the area creates the potential that the residents will expect and not tolerate the level of noise and activity historically associated with this area. Not my words, the staff's words. There is a term that I might use, and it's a common term in real estate. It's called spot zoning. And that seems to describe or could describe this particular project. Although staff reports that this building has been vacant for many years, adding residential to such an area, in my opinion, will do nothing but compound that problem by creating a potential climate of conflict between the residents and commercial tenants. Quite frankly, I don't have a dog in the fight. That's an observation. Again, beautiful plan, may be the wrong place. Thank you. WOODWARD: Shelby Blecker, please. BLECKER: Good evening, Commissioner, and chair people. My name is Shelby Blecker. I'm a new resident in Fountain Hills. I just wanted to bring a little perspective from where I came from in this type of zoning. I have seen where heavy industrial and commercial use has been repurposed into multifamily. It's incredibly challenging, but it can work. It would be better if there was some type of community plan for that area, whether it's four or five blocks around it. But just as it sits, I have to echo what Matthew Corrigan said. It's really challenging. The residents may end up fighting against this at some point in the future. But if there are other vacant commercial properties and other owners that are also looking to do this, if there was some type of community plan that offered this or encouraged this, you have a great opportunity here. Thank you. TRULSON: My name is Jared Trulson. I'm the president and owner of T&T Construction. We're located directly to the east of the property that they're looking to develop. Just so you guys know, I am born and raised in Fountain Hills, graduated high school here, wrestled here. I'm in the Hall of Fame for athletics. I love this town. I live right next door. My wife didn't really want to live in Fountain Hills, but I got her won right away. I know the Christianson's (ph.), the former owners of the building. I went to high school with their daughter. Their son was a little bit younger than me. I'm very pro- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 42 development. I'm a third generation construction company owner. We grew from Wisconsin down to Arizona. We've been in that building since 1996. But we also can see that building directly from our yard. We hold multiple contracts that are on a job order contract or on call basis that require us to respond to emergency water line, sewer, or other utility breaks. The other storage yard to the northwest of it is Carume Contracting, who also is the same age as me, second-generation family-owned construction company, and they have the same contract with EPCOR. So the reason why you don't hear noise when you go out and visit at 10 a.m. or 2 p.m., or any time throughout the day, is because we're not working there. We're working where there are utility damages. So you may not hear the noise, but when all of a sudden, if EPCOR calls up Carume and there's a water line break on Palisades like there was a couple of years ago, they may need them to come out and help. And so at 2 in the morning, 1 in the morning, whatever time it may be, they're mobilizing equipment, getting things ready, getting out there to repair it so that water can be restored to the users that it is lost to. Same with us. We're getting equipment ready. We're getting material ready, not for EPCOR, but for other municipalities throughout the Valley. We've been in business since 1983. I love Fountain Hills, and I love the idea of developing that property. But the residents that live there are going to experience noise. It's inevitable, and it's within the town ordinance because it is responding to restore service for utilities, and there's nothing we can do about that. And while I would love to see that building turn into something, and I don't think that it'll necessarily impact our operations, it will be at the detriment of the people that live there because we are following the noise ordinance. We are doing what we're supposed to. We're trying to help. And so I just hope that everybody considers that if that office building does become apartments, they are going to live with noise. They aren't going to live with dust because we maintain that. That would be a violation. But they will deal with noise at odd hours of the night. I have two young children, a four-year-old and a one-year-old. I'd much rather be putting them to bed right now. It pains me to be here, but it's TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 42 important because I want to make sure that everybody on the zoning commission understands that once those residents move in, they are going to experience a lot of noise. It's going to generate complaints, and there's very little that they can do about it because we're not doing something that's wrong. Thank you. DAPAAH: Chairman Gray, I have a question for him, if that's okay? CHAIR GRAY: It's out of protocol but go ahead. DAPAAH: Jared, right? TRULSON: Um-hum. DAPAAH: What type of noise are you making at 1 a.m.? TRULSON: We're getting equipment ready, so we're firing up equipment. They have backup alarms. It's loud. You're moving material around. It can be metal. You could be welding on equipment if there's damage because you have to have it ready and operational in order to do it. You may not have anticipated it. We're moving things around to get the parts or pieces that we need. A lot of it is metal. You know, the town of Fountain Hills has a lot of asbestos cement pipe for their water lines. AC pipe wasn't built by EPCOR; it's from back when it was originally developed. You get a loud or a strong monsoon storm, that pipe breaks because of the lightning strike, just because of the way that it was constructed and installed. And so you're grabbing the -- DAPAAH: Right. But I'm not talking about the pipe breaks. I'm talking about you pulling up in the yard to get your equipment ready. What are you doing to make the -- to get -- I mean, what type of noise are you producing at that time? TRULSON: We could be welding on buckets. Grinding on buckets. We could be moving metal pipe around to get it ready, to get it onto a trailer, to move out to the job site or wherever the repair would be. It all just depends upon the break. DAPAAH: How often does this happen? How often are you getting these midnight calls? TRULSON: It's sporadic. It could be two times a year. It could be ten times. DAPAAH: When was the last time it happened? TRULSON: April. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 42 DAPAAH: Just this last April? TRULSON: Um-hum. DAPAAH: One time? TRULSON: That was the last time. Yes. DAPAAH: Okay. TRULSON: And like I said, either way, you guys decide on this -- and gals -- is immaterial to us because we're not doing it -- we're not generating noise outside of the noise ordinance. It is mainly for the people that would live there. DAPAAH: Thank you. Thank you very much. MAYOR GRAY: More speaker cards? WOODWARD: No Chair. CHAIR GRAY: All right. Let's go ahead and close the public hearing. Bring John back up. COREY: Could we have? I did have a question for Art based on what that person said. CHAIR GRAY: All right. Let's bring Art up first then. COREY: I think I appreciate that Jared came up and shared his perspective from what of business they have there. And I think that's the key thing here is, as the business -- as the property owner, would you be able to, like, let those residents know that these are the types of noises they may experience at certain times during the year to make sure that that is something that they agree to, that they can expect, and wouldn't be complaining about it, I guess, you know. Can you address that? TOLIS: Sure. Thank you. And some of the points Commissioner, you had just brought up, I was going to address as well. And that was specifically in regards to how many complaints from existing homes and apartments have they had? Because there are already I can drive a golf ball to the apartments down the street, and the condos and townhomes, not only on this street, on Panorama, but if you go around the block to Desert Vista Park, Hollywood Auto Body, and right across the street right there, there's a whole other residential neighborhood that's in this same vicinity. So if we're having the decibel level of noise that's above and beyond what's normal, everyone in that area is hearing it. So I'm glad that you asked how often does this happen? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 42 So one of the things I did in expectation of this question was to do an addendum to a lease agreement and what I did here, and I'll just briefly read it to you. There's five parts to it. "Zoning disclosure. The property you're about to lease is within a C-3 zoned area with a special use permit for residential apartments. This zoning designation means that there are various businesses in the vicinity that may occasionally produce noise as part of their regular operations. Number 2, the noise ordinance compliance. All businesses within the area are required to adhere to the Town of Fountain Hills noise ordinance. While it is expected that businesses will respect the rules and regulations concerning noise, please note and be aware"-- and I had a nice conversation with this gentleman here -- "from time to time, noises may be heard from this location that are different from those in traditional, strictly residential areas. In this situations where you have emergency response teams that are addressing utility issues and things of that nature." So the noise that they make to prepare for those type of activities, such as if it's on Palisades Boulevard, where the water leak, all the residents that are in that area are also experiencing the same noise of activity to deal with an emergency response, no different than if an ambulance shows up in my neighborhood in emergency response at 2 in the morning for a neighbor, these are noises that we all expect, and I think we all realize that can happen. Number 3, I said, "Tenant acknowledgment and compliant procedures. By signing this addendum, tenants acknowledged that they have been informed of the potential for noise due to the property's location in a C-3 zoned area with special use. If any noise issues arise, the tenants are advised to first contact the landlord. The landlord will assess the situation and, if necessary, file complaints with the appropriate town departments for further review". So each situation will be handled by us, because the last thing I want to do, and what I said in our good neighbor statement, was to adversely affect the businesses in the area. We all want to get along, and we want to work together to have an area that is livable and workable for everyone. And that was my last point in this statement. I said, "Mutual respect and coexistence. Our goal as property owners is to provide a peaceful and healthy living environment for our tenants. The area offers many amenities including parks within walking distance TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 42 and restaurants just minutes away on foot. We kindly ask that the tenants respect the businesses and the surrounding area and avoid filing unwarranted complaints. We believe in fostering a mutually beneficial relationship between residents and businesses within the district". So that is how we will handle the tenant relationships and lease agreements. COREY: Thank you. MAYOR GRAY: Anything else for Mr. Tolis? Commissioner Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Mr. Tolis, would you be willing to consider -- noise as a whole is a function of transmission of sound through walls. Without knowing what the construction is, I would assume that you're going to upgrade the windows from dual pane -- from single pane probably to dual pane, maybe. Would you be willing to consider upgrading to triple pane windows to help alleviate some of the noise? Because without knowing what the walls are, there's no staggered studs. There's no sound barrier insulation. TOLIS: The entire building is block construction. Right now, the entire building is block construction. And I will defer to my architect in regards to -- absolutely, we will put in the best windows we possibly can to take care of any potential noise. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Then it probably has some -- ENOS: Yeah. I'd like to have Ted Peterson address that noise issue. JOLIE: My name is Don Jolie (ph.). I'm an architect. I'm partners with Ted Peterson, and we're working with them on this project. I used to live in an apartment in Chicago where I never did not hear a siren, 24 hours a day. So I'm kind of -- I've become an expert in sound -- stopping sound from transferring. I had a project where an upscale neighborhood had a pump station for a canal, and it went right into the neighborhood, and all it took was a little six-foot wall to take care of it. To take away sound, you need distance and mass. Strategic walls. You talked about windows. The new energy code requires dual pane windows. You can get triple pane windows. And it makes it really -- it makes a amazing difference in the sound. So if a crying baby in an apartment goes out to that auto shop, you're not going to hear it. So I don't -- and also, if you wanted to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 42 have a building that was soundproof, block construction, that's where you go. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Yeah, but my point wasn't soundproofing. My point was to take it an additional step. And you just acknowledged that going from dual pane to triple pane enhances the sound barrier. JOLIE: If you've ever been into a building that had used to have single pane windows and you put the new energy code windows in, it's amazing. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I understand. But again, going from dual pane to triple pane is an incremental increase in the cost of doing that. And all I asked for Mr. Tolis was to consider it. I didn't say it was going to be a requirement. I said consider it because I got more questions for John about the building codes and compliance. But I think it's worthy of consideration, particularly with the proximity. I completely get the contractor's point of view where I've got noise at night, I've got steel pipe, I've got rigging going on, all of those things, and it can be annoying, maybe not prohibitive. And I appreciate the addendum that was put together, but considering that triple pane, it's an ask. That's all it is. Thank you. JOLIE: Oh, sure. Anything. I mean, I can understand sound and there's lots of ways to fix that problem. Lots of ways. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I agree. CHAIR GRAY: All right, John. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Why don't you go first? CHAIR GRAY: just ticking the box, John. It looks like it's self-parks itself and then some. WESLEY: Yes. CHAIR GRAY: Special use permit rules of the road. Does a special use permit convey if the building were sold? WESLEY: Once the use is established, yes. CHAIR GRAY: Okay. What are your thoughts about the -- I'll use the word disenfranchisement of the adjacent C-3 parcels, if we go down this path? I tend to think I like the reuse of the building. I also have some reservations, with the placement of it being kind of at the heart of the C-3 district. So I'm curious to get your candid thoughts. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 42 WESLEY: Chairman Gray, it's been a struggle for me from the time Mr. Tolis first came and broached the topic with us, and I've gone kind of back and forth on it myself. In a ideal world we wouldn't have residential here. It really is an odd place for it, in the middle of the C-3 area. It is an important commercial area for the town. As has been mentioned, it is our only C-3 area in town. So if we're going to have those more intense employment type uses, this is where they're going to occur. And having a residential piece right in the middle could signal that those types of intense commercial uses aren't desired and may cause a problem for their long-term viability. On the other hand, the property is a good fit, as we've seen the design for residential use, the overall street panorama from the residences not too much further north to the commercial, a little bit to the south, fits fairly well. It has been vacant, and we will be better off as a town if it's being used than if it's sitting there vacant. And so I've had that kind of tug back and forth myself. Bottom line, I think most of the challenges that are presented with the site can be addressed. I think Mr. Tolis has done a good job with both his design and what he's proposed this evening, with regard to some of the terms of the lease that will help the residents that move in there understand that condition. And so we can support a recommendation for approval to council. CHAIR GRAY: Can a special use permit bind that lease addenda to the property? Not really, right? WESLEY: That gets a little bit difficult to do that there. I hadn't thought about this till standing here right now. Something would be a little bit more doable, would be someplace on the property. Maybe it's someplace inside that courtyard, we require that there would be a sign posted that notifies residents you're in a commercial zone, and whatever that would say, I don't know exactly. That would be a little bit easier to do up front and enforce long-term than something in a lease if you're interested in something like that. CHAIR GRAY: And what's the -- inevitably a resident, a leaseholder is going to call the town once they reach a level of frustration. What's the burden to the town once that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 42 starts? WESLEY: Chairman, that would, similar to any other type of complaint that we get, we'd have to investigate it and see if we thought there was anything justified with the complaint that was outside the code requirements. And everyone is so different, it's hard to say how big that that issue would be. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: John, staff said they see challenges. Can you tell me what those challenges are that are perceived at this point? WESLEY: So when we look again here, I have on the screen the list of what's required for the commission to find in order to recommend approval. And as has been mentioned, given some of the activities that occur in the area of a intense commercial nature, we heard a good description from the property owner to the east just a moment ago of the types of activities that could be happening at 1, 2 in the morning when people are trying to sleep with a lot of noise. That's not what you expect in a commercial area. When you're in a living situation and even in typical mixed use type of residential situation, you expect to really be in a environment where you come out of your apartment and you're part of still a neighborhood where you can do a variety of things, see other and be part of other residential activities. This is more isolated and a single residence kind of in that situation separated from those other types of uses that you may want to go to. There are commercial uses along Saguaro. They're a little bit distant. They're not that many maybe that you'd really use on a regular basis. So we just see some challenges that way. It's not the ideal. If we were designing this from scratch, we wouldn't design it this way. But could it work? It could. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So you don't see any insurmountable challenges with the cooperation of the applicant? WESLEY: No. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Thank you. CHAIR GRAY: Phil? SVEUM: John, how many other parcels are zoned similar to this in that condensed area? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 42 WESLEY: I'm not -- Commissioner, I couldn't give you a number exactly right now. But if you look at the map. SVEUM: Okay. WESLEY: You'll see this area is all zoned C-3. And so I don't know what is that? 75 parcels? Something in that range. 50, at least, probably that are zoned the C-3. SVEUM: But how many -- are there any vacant parcels? WESLEY: Other vacant. There's one here to the immediate southeast, that's vacant. There's one here to the west that's used to have a building on it, the building I believe burned a few years ago. It's just a slab right now. It is in the process of being redeveloped for some storage use. Those are the only truly vacant ones. I guess, there's one more just off the screen. Here to the north or to the west. SVEUM: Well, the one that's directly behind it. WESLEY: Yes. SVEUM: I guess, I the noise factor is not going to go away. If there's a tenant unhappy about the noise, they're going to come here or they're going to -- they're going to complain to somebody. I don't care what addendums are in a lease, they're going to complain. Whether they got a case or not, that's going to be up between them and Art and Heather and their attorney. So I don't -- but I don't I don't see that ever going away. The buildings are block. I'm sure that's going to help with some of the noise abatement. The design is -- I mean, it's almost tailormade to convert to an apartment building or a condo or some residential use. To me, it's just in the wrong place. And I can't get over that fact that, okay, there's a vacant parcel behind that anyone that has a landscaping business or some sort of a trucking business or something that would fit in a commercial zoning, will avoid going there because they're going -- they don't want to create a problem for themselves because they've got a residential use in their backyard. And that's why I was wondering what other -- and is that going to hamstring the town to have another use for these properties, always knowing that there's a residential -- there's 12 units of residential right next to it. And that's just a -- I think that's a legitimate concern. And I don't know that -- I don't know that it can be overcome with a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 42 piece of paper that a tenant signs. Because that is -- it's going to -- it's going to be an issue. And I wonder about the value of some of these other properties to be -- well, in fact, if the neighboring properties want to sell at some point in time, are they going to be limited in the type of user on their property? Because it's not -- it's not built like this property was. It's easily convertible to residential. It's going to have to remain as a construction site or some other sort of a C-3 property. So I guess, long-term that's what my problem is with that. I think that other than that it's, again, great building, maybe in the wrong spot. I'm struggling with that part of it. CHAIR GRAY: Dan? KOVACEVIC: Well, the other -- my other point to piggyback onto that. We had an owner in the building. He had a business. Sold the business. Buyer of the business no longer needs the building. So the business moves out. You have a vacant building, but I'm not hearing where anybody even tried to keep it commercial. They didn't -- where anybody's even tried to lease it as an office building. Seller of the business just wants out. He no longer -- he wanted to retire or whatever, he wants out. And I'm just not hearing where there was even an attempt to utilize this building with the C-3 zoning. Conforming to the C-3 zoning. And I -- it's a great -- it looks like a great project, and I commend the work that Art and Heather did, but it's right in the center of C-3. It is in the wrong spot. And so I just -- I don't see how I can support it. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Yeah. Chairman. Since COVID, office buildings, if you notice the trend, there isn't much use for office buildings anymore. Chairman, you have an office that I don't know if you've been -- if you ever use it. CHAIR GRAY: Three days a week. DAPAAH: If you ever show up there in the office. But anyway. So yeah, it's -- the only option here would be to leave that building empty, because who wants an office complex right now? Unless if that building gets bulldozed and is used for something similar to what Josh has there in his yard, that building will remain empty. There are plenty of empty offices now that are not being utilized for anything because of this new TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 42 hybrid type of use where people are working from home. So if -- I would like to make a motion on this, make a move on this because this use seems right to me. The building is going to continue to age. It's going to continue to deteriorate if something is not done to repurpose it and use it for something of the sort. CHAIR GRAY: I'll give you the right to the motion. But before you do. I also think -- I think the plan is a really good adaptive reuse plan for the structure. But I'm more in the camp of Commissioner Kovacevic in that the original build of an office building with all of these adjacencies, and I don't know which came first, this building or the other development around it. But the original build looks to be a mistake. You know, retrospectively, of course. And I don't think that it would be wise for us to double down and enhance that mistake by converting it to residential. This, in my opinion, is probably a demo and repurpose parcel, not a reuse building. Anywhere else, I would be fully supportive of it, but not in its current placement. Commissioner Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: I'd ask you to consider the fact that somebody like a Regis, who has single offices all across the country, is not going to buy this building. And my position is quickly becoming something is better than nothing. It's not going to fit commercial. There's no contractor out there that has any type of equipment that would fit into C-3 zoning that's going to need a building like that. And I would rather, at least at this point, without further discussion, have something in there than nothing. CHAIR GRAY: How do you -- how does John convince us that this decision -- and I could flip a coin. I could go with you on it. But how does John convince us that we are not going to adversely affect the other adjacent C-3 stakeholders two years, three years, five years from now? Because somebody made the point, I think it was Dan made the point that eventually you get 12, maybe you get 24 voters in there. Eventually you get people showing up to meetings in groups and eventually you start to drive change as a result of that. And I'll just be cognizant that we could start that wick burning. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But the other side of that coin is, if you look at it from a strict financial standpoint, the financial liability is with the applicant. And if it is such a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 42 boondoggle to make this effectively studio apartments because I don't think most of those you can really manage two bedrooms out of. But regardless, it's a financial decision. And if the financial aspects and the occupancy doesn't pay for his investments, he suffers the burden. So I'm looking at the other side of that coin, as opposed to just the adjoining properties. And immediately south of there, there are other residential areas. And I think, even if you bulldozed it and put something that was heavier commercial like the town storage center, you'd have a noise issue. So we're right on the edge of adjoining properties, and I think the financial risk is on the applicant and I support that. CHAIR GRAY: I think the short-term risk is on the applicant. The medium term risk is potentially on the other adjacencies. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Well, that's quite possible. And if the long term, the residents of the town have an influx of commercial contractors into town, first off, there's no local business that would support an abundance of residents. Where that C-3 is sitting right now, there was a wood shop in there years ago, a fabrication shop. There's a plethora of small businesses in there, but none that size, none of the small 12,800 square feet, plus or minus, facilities. That is a Regis type of a property. And if I was an investor, I would probably buy that and try to lease it to individuals. But I don't think it's going to have an adverse effect. I think if anything, the potential adverse effect is on the applicant and the lessors. SCHLOSSBERG: I agree. MAYOR GRAY: Scott? SCHLOSSBERG: I go back to the residential, it's -- I mean, it's maybe a tenth of a mile away which butts up against the commercial as well. And I don't know if we've had complaints for noise in those residential neighborhoods, but I don't see that being any different than where this is. Honestly. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Have we had complaints, John? WESLEY: Chairman, Vice Chairman, no. Not that I'm aware of. In terms of noise complaints, I assume you're talking about with these residents up here to the north TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 42 from the commercials that are adjacent here. CHAIR GRAY: Correct. WESLEY: But will note that I believe this is a mini storage type facility, so it's not going to have the same type of active middle of the night type of things you might have at this location. And you'd have the wash that separates this area from those residents. SCHLOSSBERG: Is that mini storage open 24 hours? Does it have 24-hour access? WESLEY: Commissioner, I don't know for sure. SCHLOSSBERG: I'm just saying. I mean, that goes back to the point where somebody could be moving their stuff in at 2 in the morning and backing up and beepers backup warning going off. So that's what I'm saying. Similar situation. And it butts right up against that residential. CHAIR GRAY: John, what's the hours of operations in C-3? WESLEY: No limits. CHAIR GRAY: No limits. So the guy behind could be doing body panels. And if there were complaints out of these residents, the city would stand down. WESLEY: So without pulling up the noise ordinance, we don't have a decibel limit. It does talk about what's usual and customary in an area. And this being an intense commercial area, we would expect a lot of noise. So the threshold would be different in terms of the loud noise than if we were in the middle of a single family neighborhood. CHAIR GRAY: I want to vote for this. I'm just very afraid of what we're going to uncork here. SVEUM: John, sorry. Question for you. Any idea -- maybe, this is a question for Amanda. What's the occupancy of the office suites that are along the Avenue of the Fountains? There's several offices, individual offices that people have and I -- and maybe Art knows better. Has the current owner been active in trying to lease at least the spaces? WESLEY: So Chairman, Commissioner, yes, I cannot answer any of those questions specifically. I don't know what the owner has done in terms of individual lease attempts versus overall selling the building. And I know I hear Amanda talking about the various TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 42 vacancy rates, but I don't remember what they are off the top of my head. Early meeting that we did have with staff with Mr. Tolis, Amanda was supportive of his request. SVEUM: She what? WESLEY: She was supportive of this conversion. SVEUM: Okay. Thank you. MAYOR GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? Or do you want to make another comment, Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yeah. Just one more comment. I did want to comment because somebody mentioned a couple times bulldozing it. And I can say that having been there to the property, it is like a solid block construction. And it was very quiet inside. And just looking at the layout. It's interesting, like I mentioned before, it's almost like it was built to have multi purposes. I could see it being residential at the time it was built too. So I think that's kind of unique. And something else like when Matthew brought up, you know people want to live in these beautiful locations. I think there's also a lot of diversity in what people want. So this may be an attractive location for someone who could be looking for like lower rent or being closer to commercial property, closer to restaurants to walk around. They might not necessarily be looking for something that has a view of the trees and the mountains and in a quiet place with the park. So I think that we have to consider that this could be a great opportunity for people that might be looking for something closer to amenities and maybe a little bit, I'm sure, Art, having this in the middle of the commercial properties, that maybe the rent would be a little bit lower. I think I saw 18 to 2,500 on your application. So those could be attractive to people that are looking for just an apartment to get in and out of, that's close to a main artery. So I think we should consider those things. And the other thing I want to mention is when I stood up front, I did see two bicyclists ride their bike by. So it tells me that they're riding to the fountain or along Saguaro. And also I could see the R-5 building from the front. So it's not -- it's not like it's so far separated. It's still kind of is in that mix. So people walking outside and being able to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 42 use the neighborhood, I think is still something that would be attractive to a lot of people. And that's my comment. I am for it. I wanted to just make that point. CHAIR GRAY: Do you have another one, Rick? CHAIR GRAY: Yeah. I know that the underlying vacancy rate for multifamily in town is reputed to be three percent. I cannot find the underlying data. But I don't think that this property is going to warrant a $2,000 rent, and I think that onus is going to be on the applicant, the financial aspect of it. I'm -- that's why I would support it. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah, your motion? DAPAAH: Sure. I would like to move to recommend, as suggested by the staff to approve of the special use permit 24-000002. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: I would second that. And just adding that there is some sort of a notification to the residents, whether that's the addendum in the disclosure or the sign that tells them about the potential. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Does that mean you're going to -- COREY: I'm sorry? CHAIR GRAY: You win, does that mean you're going to second it? COREY: Yes. I am seconding it. Okay. Thank you. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah are you -- we're out of protocol here a little bit. Are you amenable to that adjustment to your motion? DAPAAH: Sure. MAYOR GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Dapaah's put a motion to approve on the table. Commissioner Corey has seconded. Paula, let's do a roll call, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Nay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 42 WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Nay. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Chair Gray? CHAIR GRAY: Nay. WOODWARD: Four, three. CHAIR GRAY: Thank you, Paula. All right. Agenda item 6: public hearing and possible action on ordinance 24-13, amending section 5.14 home occupations and allowance of on-street parking. WESLEY: Chair and Commissioners, you may recall six, nine months ago you had a text amendment that was before you with regard to adjusting our home-based business ordinance. You recommended approval to town council with a few modifications. When we got to town council and they discussed it, they also had a little bit of discussion. We had some public there to raise some concerns and have some comments. They did approve the ordinance at their March meeting. In doing so, there was some discussion about the amount of an allowance for on-street parking in front of a home-based business. The way that it was discussed and the way the motion was made at the council, staff did not pick up that there was any intent to include that as part of the ordinance. We have had discussions since then that there was a desire to have some adjusted language with regard to parking associated with the home-based business, and so we have worked on what that was, based on what was discussed at the council meeting, at that March meeting. And so the additional sentence added here at the end in the red is the proposed change to address putting some limit on the on-street parking that might happen in front of a home occupation. And so it is proposed and recommended that we make this adjustment to this section of the home-based business ordinance. Questions or comments? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 42 CHAIR GRAY: Commissioners? COREY: Just that -- yes. It makes sense to me. It seems, like, maybe this is just something we missed when we were doing it initially. So it makes sense that we would say, hey, use the available parking first. Only then, if it's full, you can park on the street. It makes sense to me. Thank you. WESLEY: And maybe some level of transparency. Staff sees some challenges with practical application of it, but it sets the tone of what the intent or desire is. CHAIR GRAY: Commissioner Sveum? Commissioner Watts? CHAIR GRAY: I see just the opposite side. I've got full parking in the parking areas. Driveway, whatever, somebody leaves, and somebody had in the meantime parked on the street, one, two or three people. How are we going to keep track of that? WESLEY: Vice Chair, that's a challenge. VICE CHAIR WATTS: That's the $64 question. WESLEY: Right. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But we don't have a plan. WESLEY: Right. That will be one of the challenges ongoing in terms of being able to actually enforce it. Do we know which homes have home-based businesses? Do we know what their hours of operation are and so forth? It would be a number of challenges with the practical implementation of it. But again, it sets the desire and the standard that we're after for the town to try to get the parking off the street as much as possible. VICE CHAIR WATTS: And are we fully staffed for code enforcement now? WESLEY: We are currently down a half a person, but we have interviews next week. CHAIR GRAY: You're retired, right? VICE CHAIR WATTS: It might be easier. Thank you. CHAIR GRAY: I guess we should do a public hearing. Any speaker cards, Paula? WOODWARD: No, chair. CHAIR GRAY: Really? VICE CHAIR WATTS: We were having so much fun. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 42 CHAIR GRAY: Okay. Well, let's close the public hearing, then. Commissioners, final discussion, or a motion? Commissioner Watts? CHAIR GRAY: I think code enforcement is going to have their hands full. And I think that if we can manage home-based businesses and the potential revenue that we should get from them for declaring what they do, then maybe that'll fund the code enforcement person. But I think you got your hands full, John, with code enforcement. So I'll still support it, but it'll be interesting to see the outcome. CHAIR GRAY: Well, the reality is, is if we comply with first sentence of it, the last sentence really shouldn't be in play, right? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Except for those situations and how are you manage them? Yes and no. CHAIR GRAY: I mean, I think if somebody's going to get into a code enforcement scenario, it's going to be on sentence 1, not sentence 5 or 4. It becomes semi redundant at that point. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Then why have it? Isn't that the conversation we had before about the reason that we had the number of trips limited to six? CHAIR GRAY: Well, I do think it's a reasonable supplemental constraint. I mean, the whole idea here is if you're going to be of that critical mass, the home probably isn't the right place for it, right? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Fair. So let's look at it, and as snarky as I can be about it. CHAIR GRAY: Surprise, surprise. VICE CHAIR WATTS: If we don't pass it, council will. So with that. CHAIR GRAY: You just had to? VICE CHAIR WATTS: I had to. So I move to approve the amendment. CHAIR GRAY: You can second it if you'd like. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Let's go ahead. I move to approve the amendment to Ordinance Section 5.14 home occupants regarding allowances for on-street parking as suggested. COREY: Second. CHAIR GRAY: The motion has been made to approve by Commissioner Watts, seconded TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 42 by Commissioner Corey. Just for the sport of it, roll call please? WOODWARD: Oh, wow. Okay. Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Chair Gray? CHAIR GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven, zero. CHAIR GRAY: Thanks, Paula. All right 7 and 8, commission discussion and summary of requests. WESLEY: Leave everything for me. Okay. Yes, I've got a whole other one to go. No. Commissioners, I really don't have much this evening. We do have at least one item for a September meeting. There may be two. So we'll keep you busy. CHAIR GRAY: And update on -- is it Ivory Lane? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Indigo. CHAIR GRAY: Oh, Indigo. WESLEY: Oh, that was withdrawn. CHAIR GRAY: Withdrawn? WESLEY: Yes. VICE CHAIR WATTS: And John, I would like to amend my comment last week or the last meeting about bicycles and pedestrians to include those miserable skateboard things TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 42 that they're motorized, and I don't know what they're called, but those guys just blow through stop signs, and I swear they got targets on them because I've almost hit each one of them. So I'd like, as we go forward, we got to do something to address pedestrians, motor vehicles, and these motorized skateboards. Just an FYI. MAYOR GRAY: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: And I've got one more question, John. This was probably, maybe, 18 months ago, but we -- one of our meetings was about a parcel on Saguaro, kind of right in front of Desert Vista Park, and they were going to -- the applicant wanted to build a second car dealership there, and we approved it, or at least we sent a recommendation of approval to town council. And this is where they built this storage yard, which is the most just awful looking thing I've ever seen. So just out of -- whatever happened there? Like, how did that end up going from that to that? And how was that approved? Just, I'm curious. WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner. So I guess, I'm not remembering the case that you are referring to that would have come through on that particular property. You're talking about Desert Vista and Saguaro corner, correct? I can run through quickly the history of what led to the current development on the property. Owned by the individual who has the impact collision a little bit further up on Desert Vista. Purchased it, brought in plans for putting a additional facility, a building on the property to house some of the vehicles, as they were finishing up the repair process before owners would pick them up. Got that site plan approved, and then had challenges with moving forward with the building at that time and desired to go ahead and put up the wall and some paving waiting for the building to come along. And so we're still waiting for the building to come along. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. CHAIR GRAY: Nice looking wall, isn't it? SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah. So is this one of those instances where we -- well, we didn't. We ultimately just made a recommendation, but we recommended something be changed, and then it ended up coming back to bite us because they built that. I mean, it's just -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 40 of 42 it's an eyesore for -- I think for me, right there on Saguaro, right in front of a beautiful park, it just -- WESLEY: I think, Commissioner Schlossberg, I don't remember the case that would have come through before -- CHAIR GRAY: We didn't. There was something to do with the -- with the body shop. But I don't think. SCHLOSSBERG: I thought it was the car dealership because they've got the one on Colony, and then they were going to have a second location there and they had plans -- CHAIR GRAY: The car dealership across the street from that we were duped on. That was supposed to be a Jeep custom mod facility. SCHLOSSBERG: Right. CHAIR GRAY: And then that turned. Next day, that was something different. WESLEY: You did do the -- you did do the SUP across the street on the other side. CHAIR GRAY: Yeah. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. Okay. It's just one of those, I guess. CHAIR GRAY: His point is valid. VICE CHAIR WATTS: It's ugly. CHAIR GRAY: That was a bait and switch. It might not have been with us, but there was a bait and switch. SCHLOSSBERG: For sure. Yeah. It just -- it's sad to see that -- I know people always complain about that can happen. And that's I guess, the firsthand account of where it did happen. So now we have to live with it. CHAIR GRAY: If we want to talk about mistakes. I think another mistake that we made was we approved the -- I don't know, I can't remember, I think it was a rezone and a special use permit to allow that commercial downstairs, residential upstairs in front of that -- kind of right in front of the -- what's that called? The Sofritas and -- not Sofritas. COREY: Behind Sofritas. CHAIR GRAY: No, no, no, it's -- KOVACEVIC: The Appian Way. The hamburger -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 41 of 42 CHAIR GRAY: It's right next to King Street. It's like King Street and Saguaro. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. CHAIR GRAY: And every time I drive by that now on the weekend, I see that parking lot full and spilled out into the street. And I think we made a big mistake there. COREY: That's just that place with the tiger on it. What's that place called? CHAIR GRAY: Yes. COREY: They do, like, some big events. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Yeah. CHAIR GRAY: And the church too. COREY: Oh, yeah. CHAIR GRAY: The church, too. WESLEY: So Chairman, if it makes you feel better, that particular development is not going to happen. Property has been sold to the Elliott Group. CHAIR GRAY: What does that mean? WESLEY: That means that Mr. Kaufman, who had the property before and got the SUP approved -- CHAIR GRAY: So the SUP is dead? WESLEY: That's not going to happen. CHAIR GRAY: So the SUP doesn't convey then? WESLEY: Correct. CHAIR GRAY: Oh, that's good. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Good. CHAIR GRAY: Dodged one there. VICE CHAIR WATTS: We get a second chance. CHAIR GRAY: So why did they take down the big tree? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Why did they take my sign? CHAIR GRAY: They took Rick's sign too, apparently. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Just saying. Just saying. CHAIR GRAY: Wow. Code enforcement's getting them. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 12, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 42 of 42 VICE CHAIR WATTS: I know. That's why I'm -- CHAIR GRAY: You can't read his signs anyway. It's pointless. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Thanks. Are we done? I move to adjourn. CHAIR GRAY: All right. We're adjourned.