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HomeMy WebLinkAbout241014 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 51 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes October 14, 2024 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 51 VICE CHAIR WATTS: If you'd all stand then and endorse the Pledge of Allegiance with a moment of silence, please. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Paula, can you do roll call please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: And Commissioner Dapaah and Chairman Gray are absent. VICE CHAIR WATTS: And Paula, do we have any speaker cards to call the public? Oh, hang on. We've got to approve the minutes. WOODWARD: They're not listed on the agenda. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I don't see them, but I thought we had minutes from the previous one or did we not? WOODWARD: They weren't -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Or did somebody already approve those? WOODWARD: They weren't ready. They weren't ready from the -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: That's why they're not here. WOODWARD: -- verbatim transcriber. Yes. Next meeting. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Then we'll go back to the call of the public. WOODWARD: No chair. VICE CHAIR WATTS: And no speaker cards. So we get two sets of minutes the next time TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 51 we meet? WOODWARD: Yes, chair. VICE CHAIR WATTS: (Indiscernible) on a property located at 16622 East Avenue of the Fountain. John, all yours. WESLEY: Good evening commissioners. Welcome this evening. I've got several fun items for you to consider this evening. The first is a special use permit to allow residentiary use in a commercial zoning district. This is just across the street here from town hall in part of plat 208. The area is zoned C-2 with the entertainment -- E. When the planned shopping plaza, the PSP, overlay districts it will each allow kind of some different activities to happen within the C-2 district. This area was platted in 1971. This lot was developed sometime in late 1982. It was developed as an office building with eight office suites. Currently, four of the units on the back of the property have been converted into hotel rooms. The southern district allows for a residential use on the second floor by right and up to eight dwelling units per acre. The request for the SUP -- because they want to turn the two hotel units on the ground floor to apartments, so that requires a special use permit. But also, with the increase in the number of units it exceeds the eight-dwelling units per acre. So for both of those reasons, they have requested the special use permit. So again, this is the area. Mostly C-2 zoning in the area. A little C-3. I think we have a keystone PAD and the town center district a little to the east. And the basic (indiscernible) pattern in the area and have the town hall campus here or the post office across the way. There's some residential mixed use with a park place. Otherwise, primarily office and commercial activities. The general plan has a number of statements that we feel are applicable to the request. We are looking for a variety of housing options in the town and encouraging a wide range of housing types that address different needs that the community may have. And then in the town center area, looking for an integrated mix of uses that provide for a vibrant town center area. The zoning ordinance with regard to special use permits -- you're seeing this a lot TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 51 lately -- section 202, (f)(1)(d) sets forth a criteria that the commission is supposed to take into consideration in granting approval of a special use permit. Highlighted the key phrase there, that the proposed SUP would likely be detrimental to public health, safety, peace, comfort, welfare, to a person residing or working in the neighborhood. And such use will not be detrimental, injurious to property or improvements of the neighborhood or the general welfare of the town. So looking at each of those phrases individually -- will a proposed residential use be detrimental to public health, safety, peace, or comfort in the neighborhood? The use of this building for residential purposes is unlikely to have a detrimental impact, we feel, on the neighborhood. Three more -- or five residential units in the area, we don't think would have that type of impact. Will allowing residential use of this property be detrimental to current commercial property or commercial property improvements? The existing urban environment lends itself really to providing this type of a mix of uses in allowing the residential mix. Having additional residents in the area can help provide customers for the retail entertainment, as well as potential workers in those businesses. We're aware of and working with plat 208 and some potential conflicts that could happen there. The plat 208 area wasn't really set up to allow a lot of residential use in the way the parking is laid out and without specific designated parking. And also, the way the solid waste is handled works fine for commercial, may create some challenges for a residential, but those are things that we are aware of and think we can work through. And then will allowing residential use create a desirable living environment that supports the general welfare of the town? Again, we're looking at an urban living environment that does typically mix those uses. We have other examples within the plateau paid area itself, as well as across the street with a park place development with the ground floor commercial and upper floor residential. We feel like, again, this is workable in this area. It helps bring that balance of housing and commercial needs. We have the walkable streets and amenities in this area that make this an appropriate use. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 51 The applicant is required to provide a good neighbor statement with the special use permit, and so that was included in your packet. They will work to be responsible, considerate neighbors and provide for active communication if there are any concerns. They did hold a citizen participation process and seek input from the surrounding property owners. They had no one attend their specific meeting. We did receive an email supporting it but bringing up some questions about the integration of uses and that was included in an email to you after you received your packet. So you've had that. So in summary, we feel like the proposed request meets the requirements stated in the zoning ordinance. It will provide additional support for downtown businesses, provide a variety of housing options, therefore, staff does recommend approval. Any questions of me? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners, any questions? Commissioner Corey? COREY: (Indiscernible). WESLEY: The applicant is available for presentation, yes. VICE CHAIR WATTS: (Indiscernible) COREY: I do. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: John, with Shea and the development across the street, he wanted the last time through, to have all residential -- if I remember right -- and I believe we held that he had to have retail on the first floor; is that correct? WESLEY: Vice Chair Commissioner Kovacevic, he did submit a request for an amendment to the DA to eliminate the requirement. That ultimately was dropped. We didn't ultimately get maybe a firm answer to that question because he withdrew the request. I don't remember at this point what the PNZ commission had said about that proposal at the time. KOVACEVIC: So does he or does he not have any first floor residential? WESLEY: In this building there will still be first floor residential facing the street with this request. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, but Shea does not? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 51 WESLEY: So his proposed building does have ground floor retail. KOVACEVIC: Yeah. Facing the street? WESLEY: Yes. KOVACEVIC: Shea does? WESLEY: Yes. Yes, the building that's proposed but not built yet. Is that the one you're talking about? KOVACEVIC: Yeah. WESLEY: Yeah. Building E does. Building F does not but it wasn't required to. KOVACEVIC: Okay. So -- and this proposal also has first floor residential facing the avenue? WESLEY: Yes. It keeps the two suites on the first floor along the avenue as commercial. KOVACEVIC: I'm confused. SCHLOSSBERG: I think if you go back to the slide -- I think the slide is misleading at the very beginning because I think it's written wrong, because the two suites are going to remain commercial, and I believe what it says is -- unless I read it wrong -- is just two dwelling units on the first floor. That's not correct. WESLEY: Well, there will be two on the first floor. I guess I did leave out a piece, because there are four suites on the first floor. Two in the back will be residential and two in the front will be commercial. KOVACEVIC: That was my question. WESLEY: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: Oh, the ones on the parking lot will be residential -- WESLEY: Correct. KOVACEVIC: -- but the ones on the avenue will be commercial. WESLEY: Correct. Yeah, sorry for that confusion. I left that out. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, that's my question. Is there -- okay. That's good. That's it. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Schlossberg, did you -- SCHLOSSBERG: That's what I was going to ask . VICE CHAIR WATTS: That was it? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 51 SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah. VICE CHAIR WATTS: John, I see that the recommendation is somewhat based upon plat 208 and cooperating where the trash encloser and the parking spaces. What do you think the success of that will be considering how difficult 208 is going to be, or has been? WESLEY: Vice Chair, in our discussions to date we really don't see any significant issues. My discussions with the members of the board for plat 208, they're not seeing this as a challenge. They really think everything has pretty well been worked out, particularly with the parking. The trash is the last thing, that's why I did include that in my staff report, to make sure that we do have that ironed out before we get to issuing a building permit. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. And then, as I read this it's for a total of -- is it a total of five residential units on the -- WESLEY: Correct. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- in both buildings? WESLEY: Two down and three up. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But it's not eight. Because somewhere here is referenced -- WESLEY: Right. Right, there are eight dwelling units that are allowed. There are four -- there are eight office suites currently, four down and four up I believe is correct. Currently, there are four office suites down and four office suites up. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Right. WESLEY: On the ground floor they're taking -- already converted two of the office suites to the hotel and those will become residential. The other two office suites on the ground floor will stay commercial. On the upper floor they've got the two hotel units that will become residential and the other two office suites they're combining into one. So it will be three suites upstairs -- three residential upstairs, two down. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Total of five residential. WESLEY: Yes. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Still two commercial -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 51 WESLEY: Correct. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- facing the avenue? WESLEY: That's correct. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. That answers my questions. Commissioners, any other questions? KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I'm seeing one more. So this is the equivalent of thirty-six dwelling units an acre -- WESLEY: Right. It's a small lot. KOVACEVIC: -- and the most intense multi-family residential zoning that we have in our ordinances is twenty-five? WESLEY: I believe that's correct. KOVACEVIC: And we've made exceptions for -- on the other side of the street -- WESLEY: Correct. KOVACEVIC: -- we've made an exception -- WESLEY: Right. KOVACEVIC: -- at the Target Center, but -- WESLEY: Those were up at forty-five. Yes. KOVACEVIC: -- the ordinance -- and so is he doing a -- what are we -- I'm used to PUD. What's our term for it? WESLEY: PAD? KOVACEVIC: PAD. Yeah. WESLEY: Right. KOVACEVIC: Is there -- well, he's not doing a development -- WESLEY: No. KOVACEVIC: -- so there wouldn't be a PAD. WESLEY: Right. KOVACEVIC: Okay. But he's ten units an acre above our maximum and zoning intensity -- WESLEY: Correct. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 51 KOVACEVIC: -- for multi-family? WESLEY: Correct. KOVACEVIC: Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But John, along those lines, the assumption is that there's to be available space in the parking area that is governed by 208? WESLEY: That's correct. Actually, the parking demand is less for residential than we would calculate for the commercial. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Right. WESLEY: And so all those things are already handled. Office suite tenants have used the parking lots. They've used the solid waste containers and so forth. So it's just a different type of user using the same things that are there. Again, with the solid waste, residential use of those is maybe a little bit different. A little bit more intense potentially. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Right. WESLEY: And so that's why we had a little bit more concern there. SVEUM: John, so how is the parking arrangement going to be worked out? I mean, you said there's some discussion going on. What's your idea of how this is going to be resolved? WESLEY: Vice Chair Commissioner, applicant can maybe explain some of that a little bit better on the details, but part of the issue is, traditionally they have not allowed overnight parking. SVEUM: Yeah. WESLEY: You have residents, you're going to have overnight parking. Residents sometimes want to have guaranteed parking spaces close by the door and they are not going to be able to do that. So those are just things that the tenants are going to have to understand as they move in. SVEUM: So there's no exceptions that are going to be provided with that? WESLEY: Not that I'm aware of. SVEUM: Okay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 51 VICE CHAIR WATTS: John, how about the exception for covered parking? I thought residential required covered parking. WESLEY: Vice Chair, I'm glad you were thinking about that. That is something that we have discussed as staff and whether or not we should somehow address that in these types of requests. Given that everything is already built and that the person asking for this request doesn't own the property with the parking requirement or where the parking is, we chose not to pursue that, but that is something that if the commission felt strongly about, because today, as you know, with the change of the parking ordinance we do require covered parking for residential. We also require covered parking for office. And so if an office were to change out are we going to now require them to (Indiscernible) covered parking for the office? Again, given the ownership of the parking is different than the ownership of the buildings, that would be a pretty tough request, so we felt like we didn't need to pursue that. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. SVEUM: Rick, one other thing. So there's been -- this has been used as a boutique hotel? WESLEY: Correct. SVEUM: And hotels don't require public parking. WESLEY: No. SVEUM: So we're still in a residential, only a longer term residential situation and the covered parking requirement kicks in? WESLEY: Right. That's a new requirement that's just been in place for less than a year. SVEUM: Pardon? WESLEY: That's a new requirement that's just been in place for less than a year. SVEUM: Okay. So if it was rented every night of the year, it would be very similar to having an annual tenant in there anywhere. WESLEY: Right. SVEUM: Thanks. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 51 VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners, any other questions or can we hear from the applicant? Let's hear from the applicant please. All yours. BURE: Vladamir (ph.), commissioners, Vladamir and I -- this time I am operating a hotel/boutique, and I'm looking to convert to two bedrooms, two bath condominiums. WOODWARD: Excuse me, can you speak into the mic because the audience is having a hard time hearing. Thank you. BURE: My name is Vladamir Bure. I'm the resident of Fountain Hills for the past thirty years and I'm operating hotel/boutique, the 16622 East Avenue of the Fountains, and I'm asking the commission to support my project in conversion to condominiums. I'd be more than happy to answer any questions that you may have. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners, go ahead. SVEUM: Is this a condominium that you're developing or are these going to be -- BURE: At this time -- SVEUM: -- rental units or are they going to be sold? BURE: Some which we are going to own and continue to operate, and some would be sold, because there's an interest. SVEUM: So would they be sold to owner occupied -- BURE: Owner occupied. SVEUM: -- or are they being sold for vacation rentals, or -- BURE: Owner occupied or vacation rental. SVEUM: Is there any preclusion of that in the zoning? WESLEY: Vice Chair Commissioner, there's not a preclusion to that. They would have had to go through a platting process to create the separate ownership possibility. SVEUM: I'm sorry, I missed the last part. WESLEY: They would have to go through a -- they'd have to plat it as a condominium -- SVEUM: (Indiscernible). WESLEY: -- and do that step, but that would be possible. SVEUM: But there would be no -- there would be no restrictions from a VRBO versus full-time resident? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 51 WESLEY: No. VICE CHAIR WATTS: And John, would that be -- before you run away -- would that be a special use permit as an overlay and would stay with that owner, or how would the transition be when they have to go through zoning change? WESLEY: So Vice Chair, I would probably have to think through that a little bit. Maybe examine the zoning ordinance a little bit. It's the first I've heard about that idea of them being sold separately and then possibly used for a short-term rental. But any residential unit through state statute can be used as a short-term rental, and so we have limited control there. And particularly in a C-2 district where hotels are used by right. Again, I don't think there would be anything that we would have to control that. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Commissioner Corey? SVEUM: I guess my question is, what -- oh, I'm sorry. COREY: Go, it's okay. SVEUM: If you're not going to be selling or leasing to longer term tenants why are you changing the process? Why are you changing the use of it, or the current zoning? I guess I don't understand why you're changing from a hotel, because that's affectively what a BRBO could be looked at. BURE: Both the investment -- from the investment we like to sell a couple and continue ownership of a couple. SVEUM: Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes. Thank you. Yes. I think what you're saying is you're trying to transition that to ownership of the new occupant versus you owning it and managing all of that, so I understand that. Vladamir, how long have you owned the property for? BURE: I purchased in June of 2022. COREY: Okay. Okay. So it's fairly recent. I heard something come up about parking. So with the way that you've been running it lately, has parking been an issue? Has any of the renters complained that there wasn't any parking or any lack of parking? BURE: No. We have 2000 parking spaces for plat 208. We're supposed to share. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 51 COREY: Okay. So, no? BURE: There is no designated parking space per site. COREY: Right. But they seem to have been able to find something that was available there? BURE: Always available. Especially in the evenings. COREY: Okay. And I had a chance to go and look at the property this afternoon too, and there is a lot of parking there so that wouldn't be a concern. Okay. Thank you. I think that, you know, I am definitely for this one and I think that the important thing to note here is this really does balance out what we have across the street over at Park Place. You know, we're looking at the same exact thing. So I think when we can look at doing this across the street it makes sense. I don't think density is an issue. The infrastructure can support it. I don't think there's going to be any traffic issue since we already use this this way. And there's no environmental impact. So I'm definitely for making this change and approving this for Vladamir, so, that's my take on it. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Any other comments Commissioners? SCHLOSSBERG: I will follow up on Commissioner Corey. I visited the property as well -- inside and out -- and the -- not that this has to do with PNC -- but these units are spectacular, the ones that are there already. I mean, I was very impressed. So assuming the new unit on the second floor is going to be as nice as the ones, well, on the other side -- it's very well done and I think it's a nice compliment. I didn't even know what the Belvedere was, to be honest with you, until I went and visited this property. So I think it's a good value add for the avenue for sure. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So I think I have a tendency to agree. My only thought was about the parking, is normally the parking wouldn't be an issue unless we have an event. And I think about the fairs and so on. So how are you going to manage parking spaces that are not dedicated because you just said they're open to anybody, anytime, anywhere. How do you protect those parking spaces for the resident? BURE: Usually when we have events -- and we have several of them -- and usually the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 51 property owners designate some parking space in front of their buildings for customers only. For example, the restaurants are doing it and I didn't do anything this year yet, but we have an event coming up so therefore I'm going to -- and I spoke to Betsy (ph.) about that -- chamber, and she supports that too, because that's the previous experience and a working relationship between the chamber, the art project, and the property owners and business owners. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Any other comments, commissioners? Okay, Paula, do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: We do. We have two written cards for -- that support the project. And then we have four speaker cards, and I'll name them in order: Joel Schaeffer (ph.) up to the podium, please. And then behind Joel will be Jared Sterns (ph.). SCHAEFFER: Thank you. My name's Joel Schaeffer and I'm a twenty-two-year resident of Fountain Hills. My business background is mostly in golf operations. I was the general manager at Sunridge Canyon Golf Club from 2003 to 2010 and managed some other golf courses in Scottsdale and Mesa. The last five years I've been in real estate and property management, and I am here to support the project at the Belvedere. I think it's the perfect blend of residential and commercial and serves a purpose on the avenue. The four existing suites are, as Scott mentioned, they're beautiful. Clayton, you've seen them. Beautiful. Very well done and I think it's, again, a perfect complement to what the -- the essence of the avenue. By converting -- rezoning -- it gives Vladimir the option to sell off some of those suites as condominiums, which, as a developer you always want to have that option. And my involvement is I am helping with the real estate aspect, along with the rentals. And they are serving as furnished vacation rentals now and people are enjoying them thoroughly. Behind the property, again, there's so much parking. I've been a resident a long time, been to the parade -- been to the Thanksgiving parade and art festivals and I personally have never seen an issue with parking. I always am able to get a parking spot back there. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 51 So again, I'm here in support of rezoning from where they're at now to residential and giving Vladamir his options as a developer. Thank you. STERNS: Hello commission, my name is Jared Sterns, and I just wanted to voice my support to transition the boutique/hotels to residential. I might voice a unique opinion on that. I am the one who currently leases the commercial space down below and just wanted to voice, like, the parking situations and everything. With it being a boutique hotel for several months now, we haven't had an issue with parking. You know, there's been parking on the avenue. There's been parking on the back, but overall, there's not been an issue that we have to go talk to people or anything like that. And I do believe Vladamir, as the owner and the developer of that, has done a good job of telling the people and directing them what to do. But again, I just wanted to voice my support for it and show that, you know, the person actually renting the commercial space -- and I'm glad you made that clear. I was like, are they transitioning that front to residential? Do I need to worry? So thank you for that. But there's been no issue there and I think it's been done great. So, thank you. WOODWARD: Next speaker is Sintar (ph.). Did you want to speak? Oh, okay. Larry Meyers (ph.)? MEYERS: Chair, commissioners, Larry Meyers, forty-three years. Pre-date most of the stuff that's built on the avenue. So my question got answered by Vladamir. I'm a proponent of condos. I'm not a proponent of rentals, so to speak, overwhelming the town with them. Condos are ownership. Rentals, the town receives nothing from them because we're no longer going to get a sales tax revenue. The short term rental thing, you know what, if you own it, you get to do with it what you want and it's -- you can do it in a house, you can do it wherever you want to do it, so that's fine as long as you keep the commercial on the first floor on the avenue like we made Mr. Shea do when he didn't want to do it. He's acquiesced and he has commercial on the first floor. It provides everything that everybody always says they want -- walkability. If you want to put in apartments somewhere, put it in downtown Fountain Hills instead of in a shopping center on Shea Boulevard. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 51 I do look further than the end of my nose though when I examine things and what if more people wanted to do the exact same thing down the avenue, then what happens to the parking, because Fountain Hills has a history of looking right here. Just like they did in 1999 when they built the Funks Shopping Center instead of a corporate headquarters and now you have what you have, a big fight among residents. And so I look at this avenue and I say, okay, upstairs, hmm (ph.). If I own the next building down, would I want to do it? And then what happens to the parking? And then what happens to the trash? And then what happens? So I would prefer to look a little further down and maybe think about those things in the grand scheme of the entire district, as opposed to, it's fine for Vladamir's one building. What about the guy next door and then the guy next door to that and the guy next door to that, because I can guarantee you it will be coming, because if you don't fill the commercial suites, then you got to make money as an investor. It's your property, so I would prefer a little further discussion down the road, but I'm in favor of this. It works just as good as Bart Shea across the street. Thanks. WOODWARD: Next speaker, Daniel Coby (ph.). COBY: Good evening. My name is Daniel Coby and I'm familiar with the building and I think it's a quality project and I would support it because it adds value to the town of Fountain Hills and there's a shortage of a need for residential. And it's a quality project and I see it as being a -- adding value to Fountain Hills. I don't think there's any issue that it's not a quality project. Those that have visited have acknowledged that and I think it's important for the town of Fountain Hills to support the residents that are living here, enjoying the benefits of Fountain Hills. And you have to go so far out, other than Fire rock, which is very high end, which is a great asset to have for Fountain Hills, but for a practicality. And especially because when you think about what's taking place at Fountain Hills is that a very smart thing with the new observatory that's coming in here. And that's going to be bringing people from all over the world here. You're going to have people interested in the space. You're going to have NASA officials, people that are very interested in astronomy and things and it's an educational opportunity. So TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 51 many people are going to take advantage of it, and they need a place to stay, high quality. And when you're short of high quality, you want to support it as being directors of this community. And I'm proud of what you're doing, and I think it's a good idea. So if you have any other questions -- I love Fountain Hills. It's a great city up here and I'd like to see more cooperation with the residents here, to be perfectly candid with you, and the businesses, because this here is going to be a landmark location throughout the United States, and you've worked hard to develop what you have here already. The Fountain is great -- good operation and people come from afar to come here to visit it. So I think when you support the community making things available to the people that want to enjoy what you have here and what you brought here, and it was your efforts that allowed this, so I would continue this support. That's all I have to say. If you have any questions, I'm happy to answer them. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Any other speaker cards, Paula? WOODWARD: No, Chair. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners, comments, questions? KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I have another one for John. What assurances -- or are we approving the site plan? Is the petitioner locked into the site plan? WESLEY: Vice Chair Commissioner, the building is not changing exterior, so while there is technically a site plan, the site plan is the existing building. All the changes are on the interior and they're requesting up to five residential units. They've got four currently and so their one change is going to be to take two suites upstairs and convert them into one. If they decide to just do something different than that so they still end up with five dwelling units, they can do that with the approval, but they can't get six. KOVACEVIC: So if somebody came along and said, I want these two units in the back, petitioner by right could put two residential units in the front on the avenue? WESLEY: No, because it is specific also to that regard. That it's just two downstairs and the three upstairs are maintaining the -- KOVACEVIC: Have to be -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 51 WESLEY: Have to be in the back. KOVACEVIC: -- in the back. WESLEY: Yes, they do. KOVACEVIC: There's no wiggle room there to -- WESLEY: No. KOVACEVIC: -- to change? WESLEY: No. KOVACEVIC: All right. I want to -- I'm concerned about the density, but we've already made that exception in town across the street. So, I mean, it's hard to say that I want to stick to our ordinances when right across the street they've already made -- they're already at forty-five units an acre, right? WESLEY: Yes. KOVACEVIC: And I don't like making the exception for not having covered parking back there, but I'm willing to go along with the commission. I'm not going to stand alone on that hill. But that's where I'm at. As long as he can't change the location of the residential units to on the avenue. WESLEY: That's correct. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner? SVEUM: John, just so I understand, the parking situation, is there overnight parking allowed in that plat 208, or not? WESLEY: Vice Chair Commissioner, again, that gets a little bit outside my specific knowledge to comment on very far, but it's my understanding in my discussions with the plat 208 representatives that their -- I'll say bylaws -- SVEUM: Yup. WESLEY: -- whatever documents they have do not allow for overnight parking. They are already allowing overnight parking as a reality with other uses and they are working with that and understanding how they need to adjust their regulations to provide for it. SVEUM: So there are some discussions still going on? WESLEY: Yes. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 51 SVEUM: As far as the density is concerned, I have no problem at all whether it turned out to be fifty units, sixty units, because of the building -- the design itself. I'll choose design over density. I think it's a great project. I really do. I just didn't want to get into kind of a slippery slope with this parking and all of the sudden this becomes a huge issue for his buyers or his renters or whoever, because the bylaws now are going to be enforced. So I guess there's risk there but that's going to be his risk. WESLEY: Correct. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. And John, just to be clear, the notion that this will be a domino effect going down the avenue from one retail operation to the next, to the next, to the next, isn't really valid. It's only -- the retail has to stay on the bottom. Residential can be on the top, and in this particular case, because of the uniqueness of the property with the residential being in the back as well as on the top is why we're considering, but it won't have a domino effect in the future. Any one of those would have to come back to planning and zoning for approval, and the likelihood of us approving that, Commissioner Kovacevic's point, would be remote, if anything, so, am I clear on that? WESLEY: Vice Chair, maybe, I'll say it a little bit differently -- so maybe the mouse is going to work here -- so you are going to potentially be seeing sometime in the next few months -- the mouse went away again. There, it's back -- a request for this property for some ground floor commercial and two floors of residential above. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But that's by right. WESLEY: No. It's going to exceed the density allowance again. The density is currently set at 8 units per acre. That's really only one unit in any of these 6000 square foot lots. And so we've approved other SUP's along here for that, because you exceed that eight units very quickly, and so you probably will see more of these. And so plat 208 is supportive of bringing in the residential because they see the need for overall balance and residential -- the parking of them for residential is actually less than the commercial. So it balances in that regard. It's kind of the question though of where is that in relationship to the units. That's what kind of becomes the question over time compared to what you would normally see in a development that started with the idea it's going to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 51 have that mix and how it would work out. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But we're still not setting a precedent to put residential -- WESLEY: No. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- on the avenue and -- WESLEY: No. Right. As far as ground floor, facing the avenue, no. We're absolutely not doing that and have no intent to do that ground floor on the avenue. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Commissioners, any other questions? I'll entertain a motion. COREY: All right. I will make a motion to approve special use permit to allow residential use on property located at 16622 East Avenue of the Fountains. SVEUM: Second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Do we have a second? SVEUM: Second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Paula, would you do roll call, please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Five, zero. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. I think you're up again John. So item number 5: consideration and possible action to rezone approximately 0.69 acres located at 15225 North Fountain Hills Boulevard, Northeast Corner of Fountain Hills Boulevard and Glenbrook Boulevard, from C-1 neighborhood, commercial, and professional zoning district to C-2, intermediate commercial zoning district. All yours, that's a mouthful. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 51 WESLEY: Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair. So as stated, we're looking at property that's at the northeast corner of Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard. This property was plat 430, platted in 1972. The first buildings in this area were built in the early 1980s, and there's been really no additional development within this area since 2006. It's a corner lot of the overall development that's proposing the rezoning, from the C-1 to the C-2. The rest of the plat 430 would stay in the C-1 zoning district. And here is the zoning map that shows the area. And so again the subject property, the C-1 surrounding it and you can see the variety of other zoning districts in the area, CC to the south, residential to the West and the East. And the land uses in the area, there's the existing building on the property that has had a variety of uses in it over the years. It's been vacant a number of times. The current use of this building is the golf cart business, some restaurants, daycare, churches surrounding the property and then again, residential a little further out. Rezoning is the request at this point. I'm going to jump ahead just a little bit with the next item on your agenda, but these do need to be considered separately. There is the golf cart business that's in operation in the building. It's been there for a year, more or less. One of the challenges that he's had is that in order to attract attention to his business, he likes to put the golf carts out in the parking lot. The C-1 zoning district does not allow outdoor display of this nature. In order to have the carts outside he needs the C-2 zoning and then get approval with a special use permit. So that's the reason for the request for the rezoning. And so as we look at the current zoning district, the C-1, you can see what it's intent is and highlighted kind of the key intent of the C-1 zoning district here and then the C-2 zoning district that's being requested is a step up in terms of intensity, the nature of uses and what its intent is within the community. I included in your report a full list of the types of uses that get added when we move from C-1 to C-2. And the thing that the commission needs to remember, we have the existing use that's there today, and the request to continue that use, but once the property is rezoned -- and it's more than just a suite that he is operating in that get TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 51 rezoned -- that the golf cart business could go away and any of these other uses come in. And so that's what you need to consider, just not the use that's there today, but the things that can happen in the proposed zoning district. So again, this is a partial list. A complete list was in your staff report of the types of things that now get introduced and would be allowed in the area. That's not only some of the uses themselves, but you'll recall in the C-1 zoning district to operate after 11 p.m. or before 7:00 a.m. requires a special use permit. And in the C-1 district, you can't have the outdoor patios and some of those uses, drive-through windows without a special use permit. Those things would all become uses of activities by right in the C-2. Whoops, I hit the wrong direction. And so as we look at the general plan for this area, it's in a mixed neighborhood designation, so primarily residential but it anticipates that there can be some commercial-type uses, as well as other, you know, churches, parks, and those types of things. When we look at this specific location, the general plan has the statements here about these small commercial areas that we have that are within neighborhoods. They need to remain low density and that they would be things that would support the residential area that surrounds it. So the review and analysis here, the general plan, again, recommends that this area stay a low intensity commercial area. Redevelopment and infill would need to protect the existing neighborhood. On the one hand, the C-2 will increase the allowed uses in the area, some of which you may find are not necessarily compatible with the area, but, on the other hand, it has been a struggling center to maintain tenants. By rezoning to C-2 and opening up the number of tenants that can go in the building, it may be a more successful center because it could attract tenants it's not able to attract today. They did hold their citizen participation meeting. They did not have anyone attend. Staff has not had any contacts either for or against this from any of the surrounding property owners. Staff does, however, recommend denial of this request. We feel that the change in TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 51 intensity in this location would not be appropriate for the surrounding neighborhood and would not be consistent with the direction of the general plan. Any questions you have about the rezoning portion of this? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners? Commissioner Corey? COREY: All right. Thank you, John. So this basically came to light because the owners of the golf cart store are looking to put their golf carts out front on display for sale? That's why we kind of have both of these items here, right? WESLEY: Correct. COREY: Because, do we either approve a special use permit -- discuss that -- or do the rezone? That's why this is here, right? WESLEY: Vice Chair Commissioner, they need the rezone before you can consider the use permit. COREY: Right. WESLEY: It's not either or. They have to rezone because a C-1 zoning district does not allow the outdoor display even with the use permit. COREY: C-1 does not allow the outdoor display? Okay. WESLEY: Right. Right. COREY: Okay. Even though -- all right I'm just -- I did drive by here earlier today as well and I see a couple of golf carts out there and to me, it's a parking lot, and if there weren't golf carts in the parking lot there would be cars in the parking lot. So I think that I would like to talk about the special use permit and how we could help them with allowing them to have some sort of thing on display to help them with the sales. Just driving by and seeing those three golf carts that are out there didn't seem to me like it was detrimental to the neighborhood, but I think rezoning it to C-2 like you guys recommended would be a major change that would be too impactful to the residential areas around it. So that's kind of what I'm thinking. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: I agree with Commissioner Corey. I think, we want to help the business owner in any way we can. Can you bring back up the slide on the uses? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 51 WESLEY: Let's see, which way is that -- this one? KOVACEVIC: Well, yeah, and the substance abuse or addiction treatment, doesn't that have a distance it has to be away from a school or a church? WESLEY: No, not this one. I'll look at it real quick and see, but I don't believe this one does. There are other aspects of that that does have the separation requirements. Well, I can look that up here in a minute, if you want to ask other questions. KOVACEVIC: And I know you had like rifle range -- members only rifle ranges and stuff. Doesn't that have to be so many feet away from a school or a church? WESLEY: No. KOVACEVIC: Especially a school. WESLEY: I don't believe we had that on the rifle range -- the indoor gun ranges. The only separation requirement for a substance abuse treatment center is 2000 feet from any other detox or substance abuse center. It does not have a separation from churches or schools or anything like that. KOVACEVIC: So can we -- what other means can we use to help the business owner? WESLEY: The only other option really, in this case, would be an amendment to the zoning ordinance, so that we allow the outdoor display in the C-1. KOVACEVIC: And what's that take? WESLEY: Well, that takes a similar process to any zoning to come up with an amendment, advertise it, process it through PNZ and council -- get their approval. KOVACEVIC: I'm going to pass for now. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Go ahead, Commissioner Corey. COREY: On that note, could it be a special permit for this one business, where if the business changed hands to a different type of business it wouldn't roll over. It seems to be very specific to what they're looking to do. WESLEY: So Vice Chair Commissioner Corey, are you talking about in terms of if we were to amend the ordinance and what it would allow for? COREY: Yes. WESLEY: We could make that as specific or broad as we would decide to make it at the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 51 time. It would be, for example, if we were to say golf carts can be displayed, then anybody selling golf carts could display them in the C-1 zoning district anywhere. COREY: Okay. The easier we can make this the better. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah, and I think you're on the right track there. So how many golf carts would be out there at one time? I mean is there any -- WESLEY: So if we want, maybe, to jump ahead again briefly to the second request, as a -- and staff agrees. The golf cart business there -- except for the issue we've had about him displaying, we have no issues with it and don't see it having a negative impact. And so we were supportive of the use permit if we get to that point. But when I look at the technical requirements of the ordinance in terms of the number of parking spaces required for the building size and the use of the building and put that against the number of available parking spaces, I see one space being available for display, based on the required parking. So that would potentially be part of a text amendment that would also then, if it's golf carts, adjust the parking requirements a little bit so that that was a bit more reasonable in this case. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Can we bring up the site plan? WESLEY: It's not a very detailed site plan, because again, they are -- KOVACEVIC: Yeah. No, I get that but I don't have a very detailed question. WESLEY: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: Is the part that -- there's a parking lot behind the building that is -- WESLEY: You're talking about this parking lot? KOVACEVIC: Yeah. WESLEY: To the east. So, if I -- KOVACEVIC: Do they have any rights to that? WESLEY: No. KOVACEVIC: Okay. That's my question. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Sveum? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 51 SVEUM: Are the owners here? WESLEY: Yes. I believe so, yes. SVEUM: I'm just curious about the business, the way it's conducted. Are most of your customers a wholesale or -- WESLEY: Would you like me to -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner, we're going to -- we'll call the applicant up when we're done with John. SVEUM: Oh. Never mind. VICE CHAIR WATTS: John, I'm going to go down a different rabbit hole. That property has had jazzercise, martial arts, numerous restaurants. All that, I believe, in total exceeded the parking requirement and I'm not sure how they did that. So that's one, so I'm more of an advocate for supporting the conversion from C-1 to C-2, and my question, really, then goes to the second part, the SUP. That SUP stays with the owner of the building or with the applicant, if we were to approve it? WESLEY: Vice Chair, once it's approved and established in this case -- it's already established because the business is there -- then it runs with the land. VICE CHAIR WATTS: With the land? So the owner of the building would have to change ownership to lose the SUP. WESLEY: So the owner of the -- the business would have to shut down for a period of time. I think it's six months, and then the SUP would be lost, and the new owner would have to reestablish it. But this owner of the golf carts could sell to a different golf cart business, and they could just continue right on with operation. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But my understanding also is that the E-bike shop and the golf cart shop have co-owners, so to speak. There is an owner's interest in both. Are we taking into account only the footprint for the golf cart? Or are we taking into account the joined ownership between the e-bikes. So I would assume that if the golf carts were allowed out, the e-bikes would want to be out more in the public's eye as well. WESLEY: So Vice Chair, some of that's a better question for the applicant. I believe it is the case that the suites involved here, 3, 4, and 5 are combined for both the e-bikes and TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 51 the golf cart. Because the e-bikes are a smaller type of vehicle, they are not specifically covered at this time in the zoning ordinance, in terms of display or not display. And so if they want to put their e-bikes out to a limited degree, that's fine. It depends on how they are impacting parking or circulation in some way, but -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: They're on the patio -- the covered area. WESLEY: Yeah, so that's -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: But I still have a hard time understanding -- we've put restaurants in there and restaurants have packed that entire parking lot and they've only been a small portion of the entire strip, and we didn't seem to have the same angst about parking spaces. And now we're saying they can only put one golf cart out because of the parking spaces. How can we accommodate the C-2 so that they can have more than one cart out. And again, in the spirit of helping the business owner, as well as meeting the parking? How can we do that? WESLEY: Vice Chair, again, I think that would be as we -- if we go the route of text amendment to allow for display in the C-1, we would also need to look at the parking requirements and divide out, maybe golf carts from other types of vehicle -- parking requirements, because that's what we're applying right now. That's all we have and that requires a higher level of parking than just the typical retail, commercial. It's less than restaurants, so, again, I don't know what they did back in the '80s or whenever this was developed, in terms of their parking requirements then, (indiscernible), but for just a standard 1 per 250 square foot strip commercial center, this is adequately parked. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Well, what's the easier way to go, to amend C-1 or to move to C- 2 -- make a motion to move to C-2 and then have an amendment to that motion that says we can exceed the parking requirements as they're stipulated for C-2 today? WESLEY: I don't believe this commission has the authority to do that. That would, again, it's either text amendment or variants by the board of adjustment to a standard of the coordinates. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: How long would a text amendment take? What's the shortest timeline? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 51 WESLEY: A shortest timeline would be to have it back to you at your November meeting and to council in December. That would be the shortest. Is that possible? Maybe, I'd have to look at a calendar. We do have other things on our plate to be working on, but still, it could be done in a matter of, you know, four to six months, I would think, at the outside. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, but six months -- then we've kind of blown the whole season, so that's not good. I mean, again, in the interest of the state, I don't like going to C-2 and allowing those uses across the street from churches and schools. I just don't like that. I want to help the business owner. I want to go the route of C-1 with a text amendment allowing outdoor parking for the vehicles, but boy, I'd hate to blow six months. So anything we can do to accelerate that time-line, I really would urge. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner, why don't we talk to the applicant and see if they can accommodate that. RICHARDS: Hi. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Evening. RICHARDS: Evening. Paula Richards (ph.) on behalf of Fountain Hills Golf Carts. So I had a statement to read, but you guys have essentially expressed everything that I had in my statement of how, essentially, the ordinances wouldn't allow us under a C-1 to apply for a special use permit, and that C-2 was a pretty intense use for what we're looking to do. We're just basically displaying golf carts during business hours. It's not to basically create an automobile lot -- to have them twenty-four hours a day there. It's really just to be out there during business hours. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: And we're only looking for four to five vehicles outside, in addition to -- just to make it look like we're busy. My normal customer day is three to four customers on a given day, so I've got thirty-nine spaces open. Thirty-six are empty. RICHARDS: Yeah. There hasn't been any other tenants in this particular location. He occupies three of the suites and has just started with the e-bikes as part of Fountain Hills Golf Carts. As you guys probably know, there was a bike shop that's been there for many, many, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 51 many years, and, you know, they were allowed to display their e-bikes out in front. They were allowed to wash vehicles; they were allowed to do maintenance on their bicycles. They even had people actually staying in the parking lot while they would go, you know, ride down to McDowell Mountain Park . So we're really, essentially, asking for some of the same kind of -- UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Treatment. RICHARDS: -- luxury of being able to display golf carts during business hours. And, you know, we haven't had anybody in the community that has objected to it. I actually went within that 300-foot radius and actually spoke to people at the churches and the other businesses around and nobody seemed to have a problem with allowing us to display those golf carts. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I've donated golf carts to the churches, to the schools, so -- RICHARDS: To many events within the town -- UNKNOWN SPEAKER: We get along with everybody pretty well. RICHARDS: -- and the high school for homecoming every year, so -- so we love this community, and we want to be a part -- continue to be a part of this community, and raise revenue for this community. We are also residents of this community, and we live about a mile away, but -- UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Most of my customers come from (indiscernible), Trilogy, so they drive right by us. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. RICHARDS: Right. So it's perfect. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: So I just want them to see that I'm open. That's it. RICHARDS: Yeah. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Corey, do you have a question? COREY: It was for John. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Oh. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I have a question for you. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Kovacevic? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 51 KOVACEVIC: What percentage of your sales come January, February, March, April? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: What's that? RICHARDS: The percentage of sales? Basically, starting right about now -- UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah. RICHARDS: -- through about May, 100 percent of the sales happen now. KOVACEVIC: Okay. RICHARDS: In the season, obviously, when the weather's great, when people are here, especially from that area, and Trilogy that is growing so much, they come here, right? They come here to shop. They come here, you know, to buy golf carts for that community that they live in. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: A few of you guys were (indiscernible). There's thirty golf carts in inside there. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Nobody knows that. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Right. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Nobody can tell. They can't see it. RICHARDS: Yeah. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: They have no idea. They come by and they get -- if they do get to the door, they get in and they go, we had no idea. We had no idea. So we just wanted to give them a little sample to get them into the door. You know, we realize, you know, the selling needs to be in the store and it will be, so, I was just trying to attract a little of the attention that goes by my shop every day. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So John, a question for you, is there another mechanism that we could use to address something like a variance for the C-1 that we could expedite in some manner, or get in front of town council so that they can approve it? Or an alternate mechanism that you know of? WESLEY: Vice Chair, no, not really. I think if there was one we would have tried to use that, because, as I said earlier, we see no specific problems with the business so we're supportive of it being there too, but we had no way of getting there in the current code TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 51 except for this way that's being proposed. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So we're left with, we have to move to C-2 in order to get the -- WESLEY: The special use permit -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- the special use permit -- WESLEY: -- to be outside. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- to allow for it? WESLEY: Yes, sir. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes, now that John's up here. Thank you so much. John, what prompted us to pull this out and have to look at this, because, you know, I drove by today and I think there's a couple -- maybe three golf carts that are out there on display right now. One in the front and then two kind of closer to, like, the entrance of the doors, and you don't notice them that much. WESLEY: So Vice Chair Commissioner, don't need to belabor this point, but we have issued several notice of violations and citations to the property owner to address the issue of the vehicles being parked outside, and that's part of what prompted him to make the application. COREY: I see. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Code enforcement, yeah. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yeah, that was my question. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. COREY: Okay. Thank you. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners, any other questions? Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: And this is a problem because it's their product and not their vehicles that they drive back and forth to work? WESLEY: Yes. It's display of vehicles for sale in the parking lot that's not allowed. SVEUM: Is there a time limit that they could be parked outside? WESLEY: Not under the current code. SVEUM: Pardon? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 51 WESLEY: Not under the current code. SVEUM: Okay. Zero time? WESLEY: Correct. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Corey? COREY: So I'm just thinking back to how you have them arranged right now. There's one on the parking lot and then there's two, I think, that are maybe like on the sidewalk by the door. So given that the bike shop was there for so many years with the bikes on the sidewalk, is that something that's kind of grandfathered in to that area, where they could display the golf cart? It's not a car. It's smaller so it can kind of fit up there the way the other two are. Is that okay in the current code? WESLEY: No. COREY: No? So why is that? WESLEY: Again, the code is specific about vehicle sales in C-1. That no display or sales can take place outside. It has to be inside the enclosed building. They don't have a similar provision for bikes. It was very specific about the vehicles. COREY: Vehicles? WESLEY: Yes. COREY: Okay. Where the golf cart is kind of like a gray area now, because you've got bikes, and now they're e-bikes. And you've got golf carts and now they could be electric golf carts, and they're kind of blending together a little bit, so I can see how that could get a little interesting. I also just want to try to make this an easy way to help them. I feel like we're making it kind of cumbersome with rezoning and changing the entire structure of that whole plat just to try to help them with this. I wish that, you know, just like Kovacevic was saying, if we can maybe give them a temporary approval for now that's not in violation, while we work through some sort of a text amendment to help them out, I think that that's something we should look at. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I don't think it's in our purview. John, maybe you could help me understand one more thing. If, in fact, when the bicycle shop was there and they did -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 51 you know, I've seen it, trailers, cars, bikes, all over the place out there. They utilized the parking lot extensively. Is it that code enforcement wasn't as rigorous as they are today or did the zoning ordinances change? WESLEY: Vice Chair Watts, I'm not sure I can answer that very specifically. We have gotten more proactive with our code enforcement than we were a few years ago when we just had one officer, and now we have the two and a half. And so they are a little bit more active. Without seeing this -- you know -- hearing a little bit about these other uses and activities, were they violations of the code? I don't have enough information to say if they were or not. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Well, I can tell you, being a resident for thirty-seven years I have seen the changes come and go at that place. And sometimes the restaurant areas or the exercise facilities were packed -- the parking lots were packed. And it clearly would have exceeded any parking requirement. And the example of the bicycle shop where they hosted people for -- and their vehicles for days when they had their races and so one. I'm just trying to figure out, if this is the only way we can go, is go from C-1 to C-2 and then a special use permit, is that it, or do we have to give it back to council and say we need to write a text amendment to the ordinance somehow. We have one or two choices, it sounds like. WESLEY: Right. And so what I'm imagining the commission may do -- I don't want to, again, jump too far ahead -- but hearing concern about the (indiscernible) on the C-2, and so I could imagine your motion may be to deny, but at the same time, recommend to council that they direct staff to prepare a text amendment to allow the use in C-1. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Yeah, so let's go down that route for a minute, if we make that recommendation to deny C-2 and recommend to council that they allow a text amendment to allow the use in C-1, then council would hear that when? WESLEY: It's on their schedule currently for the November 19th meeting. KOVACEVIC: And if they approve it, do they still have to come back with a text amendment, or are we done? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 51 WESLEY: So, again, what I can anticipate is hearing the concerns of the commission and anticipating what council might do is that anticipating that they would give staff that direction. I could in the meantime be preparing an amendment so that if they do give me that direction in November I could be here in December with that amendment, and then we're to council in January. KOVACEVIC: January is better than March. And if we decide to approve C-2, it would go to council in November? WESLEY: Correct. KOVACEVIC: And can I ask the petitioner, how bad does it hurt you to wait sixty days? UNKNOWN SPEAKER: I mean it (indiscernible). RICHARDS: It's doable. KOVACEVIC: Okay. That's what I'm in favor of, is let's stay with C-1 and recommend the text amendment, and let's go down that route. I just -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Hang on -- KOVACEVIC: -- don't want those uses -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- Commissioner Schlossberg has -- KOVACEVIC: Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- something to say before we make a motion. SCHLOSSBERG: Just one of the questions, so -- KOVACEVIC: I didn't make a motion. SCHLOSSBERG: -- but back to the C-2, assuming we went the C-2 route, are you telling me that once we do the C-2 that if someone wants to come in and open a drug treatment facility right next door to the golf cart store, that they are free to do that without any approval? It's not going to come to us? It's not going to go -- WESLEY: That's correct. SCHLOSSBERG: -- to council? WESLEY: Uh-huh. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners, any other questions? That last one was a little bit TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 51 of a bomb. No more comments? Commissioners, do I have a motion? KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I'll make the motion that -- WOODWARD: Chair? Excuse me, Chair? We have comments from the public. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Oh, sorry. We missed speaker cards. WOODWARD: Yeah. So Paula Richards filled out one. Are you -- RICHARDS: (indiscernible). WOODWARD: You're good? Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: All right. WOODWARD: Okay. The next speaker -- last one -- would be Larry Meyers (ph.). MEYERS: I spent years trying to keep these places from getting rezoned so it could be detox centers. You recommend this place to get rezoned to C-2, I'll bring whole hell down on you, including the next council. I swear to God I will do it. First of all, Wilson Egum (ph.) already bought up five parcels with that intent just a little bit down this way on that map, so don't tell me what can and can't be done in a C-2. That thing needs to be -- needs to say C-1, because, having been here for forty-three years, that shopping center out there was intended to service all those people in the El Pablo (ph.) district and the state trust land if it ever got developed into affordable more tract home. So now you're going to intensify what was designed to be non-intensive and allow a use in that was never even presupposed in the '80s. I mean, a detox center in Fountain Hills? Holy smokes. Who would have thunk (ph.) it? So I got a suggestion for you. How about this variant? Put your golf carts out there. I'm all for -- I think the guy should be able to sell his golf carts. For crying out loud, that parking lot's empty. How about if code enforcement goes like this, and remembering we had a political ribbon in this town in 2018, and what did we do? We went like this, and nobody fought over it and nobody was damaged by it and people lived in harmony because we weren't so stuck to the code that is not practical for solutions. Not here, here. You rezone that C-2, looking here, for a golf cart, I guarantee you'll end up with a detox hospital or something else that's undesirable for that particular location as a C-2 instead of C-1. But you know how much time we spent trying to confine that particular TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 51 application. You want to throw all that away? Because I got news for you, Grady Miller (ph.) wanted to put it out on that end of town. I know it for a fact and we was talking to the Doctor Wilson Egum about doing it. And that's why I've been suspicious of everything that gets built out there when there's a change in the zoning, because you can't do it the way the zoning is now, but if you change the zoning, you'll be changing the opportunity for it to happen, and he'll be selling golf carts next to drug addicts. Go over to West Cactus and see what those businesses endure when that happens next door to their business. They move and then the plaza's empty again. So I'm dead set against changing the zoning to C-2. Figure out another way, and here's the quickest, easiest way. You don't even have to ask permission. All you have to do is ask John to go like this, and then people drive by and buy golf carts and the town collects the sales tax revenue. That's my quick, simple solution, but changing it to C-2, my antennas are up and they're not going down until this issue is completely settled and it stays C-1. And the lights -- are we lighting the parking lot to display the golf carts? Because drive by on Colony and Sawara at night -- the middle of the night -- we're a dark sky community. It's brighter than day. So those issues sort of caused my antennas to go up. Thanks. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Thank you, Mr. Meyers. So Commissioner, aside from the impassioned speech, I think I am in support of denying, at a very personal level, and doing a text amendment. Thank you. Thank you, Paula. And pushing it back to council to do a text amendment to get them the variance that -- and I'm calling it a variance, I don't know if that's a mechanical name for it or not. So if I can get a motion. KOVACEVIC: Yeah. I'll make a motion that we deny the petition for C-2 zoning and recommend -- John, are we recommending council to send it back to us to -- or council to direct staff -- WESLEY: Prepare, right. KOVACEVIC: -- to prepare a text amendment to allow golf cart display in C-1? WESLEY: Yes. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Do I have a second? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 51 COREY: Second. And -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Paula? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Oh. COREY: Second and just one comment. Just, you know, what Larry was saying, kind of turning a blind eye to this, I just wanted to remind us -- so given that they return the carts at night -- I mean you bring them inside the building, right? So we're saying that we don't allow the car sales -- cars would be out all night long -- but given that these are the golf carts and they go in at night -- does that give us a little bit of leniency in allowing them to continue this while we're preparing the text amendment? WESLEY: Vice Chair Commissioner Watts, the code says -- Commissioner Corey -- the code says no outdoor display. That's all I can say. COREY: Right. Just thought I'd throw it out there. VICE CHAIR WATTS: All right. Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Are there other types of products we should be including with this text amendment, like electric bikes? Besides just -- or is it going to just be specific to golf carts? WESLEY: Again, Vice Chair Watts, Commissioner, I've had the few minutes we're here talking about it to think about what all it might encompass to keep it simple and get it through quickly -- WOODWARD: Sorry. VICE CHAIR WATTS: It's okay. WESLEY: -- to keep it simple and get it down quickly, the easy thing will be to limit it to golf carts, but as we do that, if there's some easy way to, you know, widen that out a little bit without making it complicated we can consider that, but -- SVEUM: Yeah, I didn't really know whether or not they had other products besides the golf carts. I thought there was something -- somebody said e-bikes. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: John has already said that it's okay to display the e-bikes. The golf carts -- or the other bike store had been doing it for years. KOVACEVIC: Okay. So I did hear it right. Okay. So if that should be added -- perhaps it TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 51 should be added. I don't know. So -- SCHLOSSBERG: John, what's the fine? WESLEY: It starts at 750. SCHLOSSBERG: Per? WESLEY: Violation. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Kovacevic, did you have another question? Apparently not. KOVACEVIC: No. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Paula, can I have a roll call, please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Five, zero. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So John, before you run off, does that actually negate the next topic? WESLEY: For you, Commissioners, no it does not, because, when it gets to council, they may decide to approve the C-2 and so they would need your recommendation on the special use permit, whether you were for it or against it. I think we could pretty much almost cut right to a motion on it if you would like. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I think so. KOVACEVIC: I'll make a motion that we deny the -- what was it special use permit? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Yeah. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 51 WESLEY: Commissioner, I would think you would want to go ahead and recommend approval of it -- KOVACEVIC: Oh, recommend approval is -- WESLEY: -- because you're supportive of it, right? KOVACEVIC: Okay. Yeah, we want the special -- WESLEY: And so we recommend approval so in case the council should choose to approve the rezoning, then that's your recommendation to approve -- KOVACEVIC: Yeah, then okay -- WESLEY: -- the special use permit. KOVACEVIC: -- I recommend that we -- or I'll make a motion that we approve the special use permit. COREY: Second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I'm confused again. Nothing new. So if council approves it -- approves it going from C-1 to C-2 -- WESLEY: Yes. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- we've opened Pandora's box. WESLEY: That's true. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay? And if we -- don't we just throw another obstacle up there if we deny the SUP at this point? So they would have to approve both -- WESLEY: Right. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- and the onus would be on council, not on us, because I don't want to be any part of converting from C-1 to C-2. WESLEY: Right. Right. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So I would be cautious of approving, just to be safe. KOVACEVIC: But we make a recommendation to approve or deny. Council's going to do whatever it wants to do. VICE CHAIR WATTS: That's why I would say deny it. KOVACEVIC: That's why I originally thought deny. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Well, I think from our perspective, if we don't want any TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 40 of 51 involvement to go from C-1 to C-2, then I want to make it as challenging as possible for it to have that occur. COREY: I can see both -- I can see John's side too. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I understand what he's saying, but I'm saying, I don't want to make it easy. So -- oh, we have a speaker card for the -- I should have known. WOODWARD: Sorry about that. We have one speaker card. It's for Larry Meyers. MEYERS: I would recommend not approving the SUP because if you open the window a crack, the council will climb through it. They have in the past. They will. Maybe in the future, maybe not. Who knows. But why recommend approval of an SUP on zoning of the C-2 if you're not recommending rezoning to C-2. Just pass on the SUP part of it, go for the text amendment, look the other way so the man can sell some golf carts in the meantime, collect some sales tax revenue and call it a day. Merry Christmas. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Thank you. All right. Commissioners, do I have a motion? I think there was already a motion made. KOVACEVIC: A motion and a second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: And I think we have to amend that. We have -- KOVACEVIC: We have a motion and a second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: We got a motion and a second for the first -- for the SUP? WOODWARD: Yes. COREY: What was that? VICE CHAIR WATTS: So then we have to -- okay. KOVACEVIC: I'm sure we can discuss it, but -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. We can discuss -- KOVACEVIC: -- yeah, and I still -- the agenda item reads, hold a public hearing, consideration, and possible action, a request for a special use permit to allow vehicle sales with outdoor display at 15225 North Fountain Hills Boulevard. That's what the agenda item says, and so we just recommended for council to direct staff to allow -- to do a text amendment to allow a special use permit in C-1 zoning. This has nothing to do with rezoning from C-1 to C-2, and we're going to be faced with this special use permit TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 41 of 51 once we get the text amendment. The motion isn't going to change. So, I mean, you know, it's just -- council is going to do what it's going to do. We're going to approve a special use permit whether we do it now or whether we do it -- or we're going to make a recommendation -- a recommendation to council to approve a special use permit. Whether we do it now or we do it in December, that's going to be our recommendation. So I don't see any reason to change the motion, or to deny the motion in the second. COREY: I do have a comment. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Go ahead, Commissioner Corey. COREY: Thank you, Chair. Okay. However, the SUP is saying vehicle sales, and we're not asking for vehicle sales in our text amendment. The text amendment is specifically for golf cart sales. So it sounds to me like we want to reject the SUP the way that it's written in this case, because we're doing our text amendment differently, specifically for golf cart use. KOVACEVIC: What did we move to do, Paula, can you -- WOODWARD: Dan Kovacevic made a motion to recommend approval to the council of the SUP. Clayton Corey seconded the motion. COREY: But then there was discussion that we were confused as to exactly what we were approving there, right? So we -- WOODWARD: That's where we're at. COREY: Yeah. We got to fix that. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So the motion -- COREY: Sorry, John. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- can be withdrawn. WESLEY: Yes, the motion could be withdrawn -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: -- if both parties agree. And so another thought comes to mind and maybe that is that you recommend to council that they continue the discussion of the application for the special use permit pending the text amendment, because as Commissioner Kovacevic mentioned a moment ago, it would likely then come back here TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 42 of 51 for your consideration with the allowance now for the -- COREY: Approval with stipulation that -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Yeah. WESLEY: -- outdoor display in the C-1. So maybe that's -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Let that be denied if -- WESLEY: -- let that be the recommendation. COREY: Uh-huh. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Uh-huh. Makes sense. COREY: Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So -- COREY: Say that. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Kovacevic, are you going to stand by your motion or are you going to withdraw? KOVACEVIC: I don't know what -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Or are you going to amend your motion? KOVACEVIC: I'll amend the motion. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I think you have to actually -- you have to withdraw it and then -- KOVACEVIC: All right. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- represent it denied. KOVACEVIC: Okay. I'll withdraw the motion. WESLEY: And the second agrees. COREY: Second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Now make your motion. KOVACEVIC: Okay. I'm moving that we approve a special use permit to allow display of golf carts, right? VICE CHAIR WATTS: No. KOVACEVIC: No? VICE CHAIR WATTS: You're going to tie the special use permit back to the text amendment and make that part and parcel. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 43 of 51 KOVACEVIC: Somebody else make the motion. COREY: Okay. I'll give it a shot. I will make a motion that we approve the SUP with a stipulation that we first look at -- that staff will direct and prepare a text amendment to allow golf cart sales in the C-1; is that right? VICE CHAIR WATTS: It's deny the SUP, but recommend that council consider it at the same time that they look at the text amendment. They do the heavy lifting on the SUP, and then it comes back to us for finalization. But right now, deny it, don't open up that Pandora's box. COREY: Well, that's what I was saying earlier, but we're changing it. I thought you said approving it, John. WESLEY: My latest thought is to recommend a continuance, because the challenge we have is a denial at this point, then that means they have to reapply versus just keeping it live by continuing it pending he council amending the ordinance. And then they can come back to you with the amended ordinance. VICE CHAIR WATTS: All right. COREY: Okay. KOVACEVIC: I can make that motion. VICE CHAIR WATTS: So you change from deny then to continue. WESLEY: To continue. Continue, right. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. KOVACEVIC: All right. I'll move that we continue agenda item 6, holding a public hearing consideration and possible action for the special use permit to allow vehicle sales with outdoor display. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Do we have a second? COREY: Second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Paula? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 44 of 51 KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Five, zero. VICE CHAIR WATTS: You're still up, John. WESLEY: Making sure you were ready. Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Yup. It's item number 8. WESLEY: I think I forgot to -- WOODWARD: Seven. WESLEY: -- change -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: No, 7, appeals and variances. We got to do the zoning change first. Sorry about that. Item 7: amending zoning ordinance 2.07 appeals and variances. WESLEY: Yes. So Chairman, Commissioners, as you know, we've been slowly working our way through chapter 2 of the zoning ordinance, which is the procedures chapter, updating each of the sections to make them a little bit clearer, more consistent across the different sections and address any issues we've had within those, and you're on your last one. And so you won't see any more of these after tonight if you make a recommendation on to council. The section you have this evening is section 207, appeals and variances. So this deals with items that are appealed to and from the Board of Adjustment, as well as requests for variances. And there are requirements in the state statute that this has to follow. So in the ordinance as it is currently written, there's not a clear statement of overall purpose for variances and appeals. So that's the first change, to add a new section (a) of purpose. Again, this makes it consistent with how each of the other sections are laid out, to have such a statement. And so then we kind of renumber it a little bit from TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 45 of 51 there. So section (b) then becomes the appeals to the Board of Adjustment. Just as a note, in the five plus years I've been here we've had no appeals to the Board of Adjustment. And I haven't looked back, but I'm not aware of any that have ever taken place. Basically, appeals to the board are if I, in my role as a zoning administrator, make some interpretation of the code or apply it in some way that somebody doesn't agree with, they can appeal that decision to the Board of Adjustments. That's what those are about. So a few changes in here. Mostly its reorganization, and then, again, just some things to bring it up consistent with the other sections of the code. So we move what was number 1 up to the letter (b) in the code. And then we amended and added the whole application process, as we've done in the other sections that if we filed electronically, we need a narrative statement and pay a fee. What was the existing 3 then becomes 2, stay of proceedings. So then we created a new number 3, which is review, which is, again, similar to what we've done in the other sections. We get the application in, we check it for completeness and once it's complete then we can schedule it for the hearings. What was existing 4 has some minor modifications and the first sentence of that was moved up to number 3. Then there's a new number 5 on the hearings, which was, again, mostly just a slight reorganization of some of the existing language. And what was number 6 moves to 5(b) in that list. So again, mostly just some reorganization of existing language. Then section (c) of this section is about variances. We've had six variance applications in the last five years. We haven't had a Board of Adjustment meeting in a year. You don't get a lot more work if you want it to be a little easier. Anyway. So again, mostly some reorganization for clarity and adding in the standard application review steps. So number 1 provides a little bit more purpose for this section. Number 2 is the application requirements. Again, similar to the other ones, electronically and so forth, all those things. Number 3 as a review section -- again, we're trying to get all these sections consistent in what they say, and in the same order -- so review, again TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 46 of 51 some of what we've done in the other chapters, we're going to review it for completeness, work back and forth if you miss anything. Once it's complete then we start scheduling for the hearings. Section 4 is notice. It was part of number 2 in the current ordinance. And then number 5 is on hearing. It's just a reorganization of the language from the current code. Here's the main piece that we were wanting to address in this whole section. It's what's required for consideration and approval of a variance. In the current code, these requirements are scattered through different parts and portions of the ordinance and it's caused confusion when we had been at the Board of Adjustment about what are the requirements and how many of those do you have to meet and so forth. So we've been able to organize them into one specific location in the code and make it clear that you have to meet all of these standards, starting with the first one and going to the last in order to be considered for approval of a variance. And then, finally, also a requirement that you can't look at what's gone on around you in terms of granting a variance. Then the existing number 4 was changed to 7, action. And lists action that can be taken by the board. Similar as what we've talked about with other cases. The variance granted is non-transferable. It goes with the person who applied for it until it gets established. But once it's established, then it does run with the land. And then the last one, the existing 5 and 7 that were in the code were relocated into other parts of that section. And the final section of 207 is number (d), that's appeals from the Board of Adjustment. So if somebody's not happy with what the Board of Adjustment does, it goes to Superior Court. It doesn't come to council. And so that's different than anything else. And so there are no changes here. I think there's one word that we clarified, but other than that there were no changes in this particular section. Any questions about the modifications proposed in section 207 of the zoning ordinance? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioners, questions? COREY: Just one thing, John, there was a change in the timeline that somebody would have to submit their -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 47 of 51 UNKNOWN SPEAKER: The appeal. COREY: -- it's late -- the appeal. Thank you. Was it thirty days and we cut it back to fifteen days? Is that correct and is there any concern that that would be too restrictive? WESLEY: Let me get that up here. COREY: I thought I saw that we just cut that back in half. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I saw it too. COREY: Okay. I just want to make sure that doesn't present any issues. Like, has thirty days been working fine, and now we're cutting it for fifteen for what reason? WESLEY: That's all in the appeal to the Board of Adjustment. COREY: Yes. WESLEY: And so I don't -- so in (b)(1)(a) is where I'm seeing the fifteen days? WOODWARD: No. I think it's on page 5. (d) 7 (d). Maybe I'm not looking at the right -- WESLEY: So appeals from the board are thirty days. Appeals to the board are fifteen days. COREY: Okay. We didn't change it, we were just -- WESLEY: No. COREY: -- specifying the differences? Okay. Maybe I read that wrong then. Okay. Then I don't have any concern with that. I thought we were cutting that. WESLEY: I don't think so. I'm going to look through here. It's been a little while since I've worked some of that language so I'm just checking to make sure I'm not forgetting, but I'm not seeing that. COREY: Okay. Okay. I did a Control F on 15 also to see if there was relationship between fifteen and thirty and I'm not seeing it so maybe I did miss that. Okay. Thank you. VICE CHAIR WATTS: All right. John, just a couple of minor -- is there a reason we don't have a definitive amount of time following notice requirements the appeal will be scheduled for a hearing by the Board of Adjustments at the next available meeting? Thirty days, forty-five days, sixty days, there's nothing definitive? That's a bit ambiguous. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 48 of 51 WESLEY: I think again, that's similar to what we've done in the other ones. I can double check and adjust that if necessary but the board meets the -- we haven't met in so long -- the third Thursday of the month. UNKNOWN SPEAKER: Yes. WESLEY: Third Thursday of each month, so -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Oh it does? WESLEY: Yes. If they have something to meet about. And so it's a published meeting date that's out there. So based on notice requirements, it gets put on the next available one. VICE CHAIR WATTS: And is there a reason that we're going to waive the fees for the town, school district, special purpose, et cetera and we say they may be waived or they are going to be waived. How do we determine that? WESLEY: We like to, I guess, leave that little bit of wiggle room in there. I don't know why they wouldn't ever be waived, but if you say they are, and then if there's some reason they shouldn't be in a given case, then you have no choice. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Have we ever waived them? WESLEY: For other governmental jurisdictions they usually do get waived. VICE CHAIR WATTS: But, I mean, there's a lot of entities in that sentence. So do we waive them all the time? WESLEY: We haven't had any such applications for me to say what we've always done. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. And then, the electronic filing again, very much like a parenting process, I'm not sure that people that are going to appeal the processes are necessarily going to be computer literate, internet literate. We don't have an alternate means in there for those people that are not versed, as far as electronic filings. Should we? WESLEY: Chairman, I don't believe so for a couple of reasons. In worst case, we'll submit it for them electronically, because it's got to get in there. That's the only way we can track it. But usually if somebody is going to this level of appeal, they've got an attorney involved and that attorney is going to figure out how to get it to happen. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 49 of 51 VICE CHAIR WATTS: Should we at least say in that sentence somewhere that, if unable, staff will complete the form for you? WESLEY: We haven't done that in any of the other sections and this is the last one. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. WOODWARD: May I speak as a staff member? We are always there to assist people. They call constantly and ask. If they can't apply online, they'll come in or we'll work with them over the phone. We're available to assist them if they can't do it themselves. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Yeah, I've seen other organizations where there's a terminal out in the lobby area -- WOODWARD: Uh-huh. VICE CHAIR WATTS: -- where somebody can help them. We don't have that today. So we don't have somebody that can look over their shoulder and help them work through that, unless they do it -- unless you allow them into the office area. WOODWARD: No, we just do it over the counter VICE CHAIR WATTS: You just do it for them? WOODWARD: Uh-huh. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. WOODWARD: Just do it right over the counter. If they're at that point where they can't use the computer, they're not going to be able -- it'll take them forever for them to do it -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: Right. WOODWARD: -- with us looking over their shoulder. So we do it for them. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. Thank you. Thanks, John. Any other questions, Commissioners? Do I have a motion to approve? All right. Commissioner Corey? COREY: All right. I will make a motion to approve the amending -- approve amending zoning ordinance section 2.07 appeals and variances. KOVACEVIC: I'll second. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Paula, roll call, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 50 of 51 COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Sveum? SVEUM: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? VICE CHAIR WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Five, zero. Okay. VICE CHAIR WATTS: All right, John, I think I got this one right. Number 8 and you're still up. WESLEY: I got to figure out -- VICE CHAIR WATTS: These paper clips get in my way, so -- WESLEY: I got to figure this out with (indiscernible). I'm up here and he's sitting over there. So Chairman, not much. I appreciate the good discussion we had this evening. As far as November, because of Veteran's Day, which would be the 2nd Monday of the month, if we have a meeting it will be moved back a week to the 18th of November, and right now we have a possibility of additional special use permits for that particular meeting. They're not for sure yet so we'll let you know once we determine if we'll actually have that. If not, we won't see you until December. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Okay. And number 9, Commissioners, any request for staff? Commissioner Corey? COREY: Thank you. VICE CHAIR WATTS: You got to look this way once in a while. COREY: I did have two things. First of all, I just wanted to say, thank you, Paula for providing the PowerPoint presentation. It was very helpful. Thank you, John. Just being able to see that breakdown and the summary was -- it really helped tie the agenda together so I really do appreciate that. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS OCTOBER 14, 2024 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 51 of 51 The second one is, I didn't see this on our weekly log, what's happening with the property next to Rainbow Doughnuts? Do we have any status on what's going on over there? WESLEY: It's being redeveloped. COREY: It seems to have been sitting with nothing going on for quite a while. WESLEY: Right, it did, but we have seen some activity again recently. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: We can't force them to work any faster than they can work, so they are -- COREY: I don't even know, what is it? WESLEY: -- they are making progress. It's going to be a coffee -- what's the word for it? WOODWARD: A coffee roaster, but also he has a sign business. WESLEY: Right. COREY: Okay. Thank you. WESLEY: A small pastry shop. COREY: All right. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I think we uncovered something tonight. We really should have a restriction on the addiction treatment centers and rifle ranges and I can't even think of others but there should be a distance from schools. And I think we need to amend the zoning ordinance to reflect that. WESLEY: We can put that on our list. KOVACEVIC: Thank you. VICE CHAIR WATTS: I have nothing for a change. Okay. Commissioners, I know you all want to hear this. Do we have a motion to adjourn? KOVACEVIC: So moved. COREY: Seconded. VICE CHAIR WATTS: Done. You don't even have to do roll call.