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HomeMy WebLinkAbout231211 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 1 of 97 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting December 11, 2023 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 2 of 97 GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah, are you with us? DAPAAH: I am here, sir. GRAY: Very good. All right. Let's go ahead and call this meeting to order. This is the December 11th, 2023 version of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission. If you would all please rise for the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. GRAY: Thank you. Moving on to the front end of our agenda. Paula, roll call, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner -- Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairperson Watts? WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Chair Gray? GRAY: Here. WOODWARD: And Scott Schlossberg is out. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Agenda item number 3, open call to the public. Paula, do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: No speaker cards. GRAY: No speaker cards for agenda item 3. Moving on to agenda item 4, consideration of possible action on the regular meeting minutes. There are two sets of meeting TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 3 of 97 minutes here from both September 11th and November 13th. Commissioners, any conversation, discussion, or a motion, please? DEMPSTER: I'd like to make a motion to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission meetings on September 11th, 2023, and November 13th, 2023. WATTS: Second. Second. GRAY: Commissioner Watts seconds Commissioner Dempster's original motion. All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner. And agenda item number 5, a public hearing consideration and possible action on the rezone of 6.7 acres at the southeast corner of Shea and Technology Drive from C2PUD Intermediate Commercial and Professional Zoning District with a planned unit development overlay and Industrial 1 planned industrial zoning district to a PAD to allow for development of a 316-unit, four-story residential community. Mr. Farhad, your presentation, please. TAVASSOLI: Thank you and good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, and the public. What you have before you, as you mentioned, is a PAD request for a project under the working title Village at Four Peaks. It is a request from a rezone -- it is a rezone request from C2 with a CUPD or commercial unit planned development overlay, as well as a planned industrial or I1 to the Village at Four Peaks PAD. The specific request based on the development plan before you is a 316-unit wrap-style residential community -- I'll describe that in a little bit -- consisting of four story -- four stories, so a four-story apartment community, featuring one-, two-, and three-bedroom units. Also consisting of 637 parking spaces. The vast majority of that will be provided within a 498-stall parking structure and plus 63 surface -- surface parking stalls. You'll see in the site plan there are two interior courtyards and a -- and perimeter landscaping proposed as well as connectivity features to the adjacent Four Peaks Plaza, which Target is the anchor for. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 4 of 97 So the specific location, as you mentioned, is the southeast corner of Technology Drive and Shea Boulevard. It is an agglomeration of three commercial parcels forming the subject property for this case. Altogether, the property is 6.7 acres. And as you can see, there's the existing commercial building there towards the south. There are only two tenants remaining there, that being the Dollar General as well as a nail salon. Dollar General has already made arrangements to move to the adjacent buildings to the east, as well as the nail salon. There's also a vacant PAD building here further to the north, closer to the serious loss -- serious wash drainage channel and a vacant PAD as well here immediately to the west of that. The general plan designates this property, this 6.7-acre property, as well as other adjacent parcels -- parce -- parcels, excuse me, as part of the Shea corridor, which acknowledges commercial strip development as being the primary use currently, also identifying opportunity for redevelopment and possibly mixed use as well. This is the site plan that the applicant has provided. As I mentioned, there will be one-, two-, and three-bedroom units. The one- and two-bedroom units are pretty much split half and half. There'll be 149 one-bedroom units, 152 two-bedroom units and only 15 three-bedroom units. I mentioned the applicant is proposing a wrap style concept where the -- the parking structure here at the at the center is essentially wrapped by the apartment units and thus making it hidden from Technology Drive and Shea Boulevard, for that matter. Just some more data on this project in terms of density. This project will turn out to be about 47 dwelling units to the acre. The applicant is off -- is providing 25 percent open space, as well as 9,500 square feet of landscaping. The last two that I mentioned there are -- exceed the base zoning standards required for this type of development. This is a rendered site plan of what I showed you previously, which gives you a better idea of how the open spaces are -- are being utilized, particularly the interior courtyards and some landscaping along Technology Drive and throughout the perimeter. There is a emergency access as well as refuse driveway here on the east side of the development, which will also provide some pedestrian connectivity to the adjacent balance of the Four TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 5 of 97 Peaks shopping center. And incidentally, to the southwest is some existing industrial development. Immediately across the street to the west, although it is zoned for planned industrial, this is a town -- town-owned property. I mentioned the zoning, but there's a deed restriction on the property that limits use to open space and trails only. But there are no immediate plans to further develop any additional trails on that property. And over here to the -- little bit further north to the west is a vacant building as well, which used to be the Walgreens in that side of town. The applicant is provided some -- provided the design concept in your PAD packets. The applicant has mentioned in their PAD packet that this development is largely modeled after the -- inspired by the Scottsdale Waterfront project, although the different architects and designers are involved, but largely using much of the same plant palette offered by that development. Building heights -- I should mention here is appropriate with this rendering here -- will reach a maximum of 55 feet. That will -- the 55-foot max point is will be the parapet, which will enshroud some of the rooftop equipment there. I've provided a little map here for purposes of perspective. This is one of the -- well, the sole driveway leading into this particular -- into this development, leading straight into the -- the hidden parking garage, as I mentioned earlier. So this is looking east from Technology Drive. This is looking towards the driveway at the east, which will be the emergency access as well as refuse access. Applicant has also provided line of sight drawings from a residential property mentioned here, 16730 East Trevino Drive, to demonstrate the impact of the -- the visual impact from the neighboring single family residences to the north. So up here, you'll see the existing conditions in here. You'll see the -- the proposed development from this perspective. Now, the development standards for this development are largely modeled after the R-5 multifamily zoning district. The applicant has provided a comparison between the R-5 zoning district and what they are proposing. And I've highlighted the deviations as far as the development standards are concerned, the biggest one being the 30-foot TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 6 of 97 height limit. As I mentioned, the applicant is proposing a maximum height of 55 feet, although the roofline will be staggered, as you might have noticed in some of the earlier slides. The side building setback -- minimum building setbacks will be 15 feet. That was the east side of the -- the project adjacent to Target. Lot coverage will be actually lower than what is allowed under the R-5 at 45 percent. The applicant is requesting some deviations from the parking standards, based on what they have identified as modern commuter behavior, as well as rideshare opportunities that -- that exist out there. More on that a little bit later. The applicant is also providing 25 percent open space, as I mentioned earlier. So in a nutshell, the -- under the base zoning standards, this type of development would require 637 parking -- excuse me, 637 parking spaces. The applicant is providing 561, based on some of the points that I just mentioned. Staff would like the applicant to explain a little bit more why -- in terms of justification, why such a lower parking count would be warranted in this case. And I'll provide the applicant to speak to that. So applicant did conduct a citizen review -- actually, a couple of citizen review meetings after the owners within 300 feet of the development were informed of the request. There were two live meetings, one in June and one in September. Now, the latter meeting, this development -- proposed development was discussed as well as the sign PAD, which -- which will follow, although the two are distinct, I should mention. Applicant did provide a letter of support from the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce Board. There were three letters of opposition provided. Most -- one actually was a couple of months ago, and two were provided today. They've been forwarded to you earlier today. And there were at least 15 comment cards expressing opposition. Now, it wasn't clear with the with most of the comment cards, if it was opposition against the apartment development or the sign PAD. Two of them specifically mentioned the sign PAD that will follow this agenda item. And there were four that specifically mentioned the apartments. So the zoning ordinance describes the four goals of the -- of planned unit developments and -- and I'll leave this up here to -- for the Commission to determine whether or not TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 7 of 97 many of these goals -- if any of these goals have been met in this case. But this would basically serve as a criteria for whether -- you know, in deciding how to make a motion for this proposed development. And I can put this slide up back later; I didn't want to read them verbatim at this point. So staff supports a recommendation for approval as they find this -- as we find this a unique redevelopment opportunity for the Four Peaks Plaza and Shea Corridor. We feel that it meets the PAD District goals for the -- per the Fountain Hills zoning ordinance. And based on the line of sight drawings that you saw earlier, we see minimal visual impact to the neighboring residences to -- to the north, which are about 5- or 600 feet away to the north from the northernmost boundary of the project. It also exceeds the base standards for -- for open space. Minimum open space required typically for this development is 15 percent. The applicant is providing 25 percent. As I mentioned, we would like to hear from the applicant a little bit more about their justification for the reduced parking. Applicant -- or actually staff is -- as I mentioned, we're recommending approval based on these three stipulations. Now, if there's going to be any change to the to the development plan that the Applicant has provided, if it's -- if there's more than ten percent change in that in the development plan, we will come before you again, if the applicant so chooses, to amend that request to hear your thoughts on that and make another motion. So at this paint -- at this point, I'll open it up for discussions and questions. Mr. Chairman, if I may, I -- Amanda Jacobs, our economic development director, is here as well. If she could follow me in saying a few words about this proposal? GRAY: Yeah, I think we'd appreciate that. And then we'll circle back with you for comments, questions. JACOBS: Good evening, Mr. Chair, Commissioners. Mr. Farhad told me last Thursday that the Chairman asked that I say a few words, so I appreciate the opportunity. So Economic Development is in full support of this project. It's in alignment with the recently adopted Community Economic Development Strategy that was approved TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 8 of 97 unanimously by Council on September 6th of this year, so just a couple of months ago. There's a couple of points I'll highlight under business attraction. One, it is collaborating and working with the owners, Sandor, of the Four Peaks Plaza, as well as looking to diversify our housing. Those are key things that we need for business attraction. I'll tell you, I've met with most of you, so I've been your guys' economic development director for over one and a half years. So I started on March 7th. The Sandor folks made time for me on March 14th. So on the sixth business day, we met. For some, this may seem like it's -- it's out of the blue, but we've been working together since essentially I started, and they didn't have stuff set in stone. They wanted to know my opinion. And I asked them respectfully to give me a couple of months to get my feet wet. And so some data points that we looked at in economic development and have shared with mayor and council -- some of you again, one on one, some of you during economic development summits -- is, one, our current state. When it comes to our major employers, they are all service-based industry. If you look at the annual average salary of someone in that industry, they're making less than $40,000. The average income for Fountain Hills is over 80,000. The median sale price is over 660,000. Houston, we've got a problem. We've got a gap. Second, I'll mention in June again of last year, the town partnered with the Chamber of Commerce to look at forming a formal business retention and expansion program. Through that, we rotate council members every fourth visit because we want to hear from our businesses who've made an investment in the town what are some issues and pinpoints. And so where there are issues is workforce housing. If there are jobs and people are wanting bioscience and assembly, they're wanting all these things, these things can happen. We need more people and we need diverse housing. And I may have forgotten to mention I'm a Fountain Hills resident and I am a renter by choice. I've heard through some comments, most people in the site visits and our business community, our residents are supportive of this project. But sometimes I do hear renters, "those people". And through some of my conversations I ask, what are -- what are those people? I'm one of those people. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 9 of 97 So again, support this project. Again, from a business retention standpoint, it assists the Target shopping center. You all know for proprietary reasons, I can't share their sales receipts, but what I can tell you with the permission of our CFO, when we look at retail grocers, they're within our top four. So we want to retain what is there. There are empty storefronts on Shea. Folks have started to knock on my door as well as Director Wesley. Last -- excuse me, two weeks ago we met with someone who already has a multifamily project in town, and they told us with great excitement that it's shifted from part-time residents that I heard about when I first started to full-time residents. We are seeing more millennials. We are seeing young families. As a renter in the community I live, I see that. I am seeing diversity in color, diversity again in families. When I first started, I thought, I am the youngest one here. I'm in my 40s, by the way; I won't give you the exact number. But again, starting to see single ladies, seeing couples, and seeing families. And we're talking not yet school age. We want to keep them here. Also for attraction, this was the last week, Mr. Wesley and I met with the property owner, who has three pieces of parcel that are vacant, raw land that they have done nothing with. And they told us, we have read in the paper that the town has approved 316 apartment units. We corrected them and said, whoa, whoa, whoa; hold your horses; that's going to the Planning and Zoning commission and Town Council. And they shared with us if we have those bodies -- and so being conservative that all of them are single, all those 316 people -- that we will commit to building commercial. We hear that you guys as staff are looking at mixed use. But when we hear 316, when we're hearing more critical mass is coming, we feel confident in moving forward. But talk to us next year after the process has gone through the Planning and Zoning Commission, as well as our Town Council. So much to say. But again, Economic Development fully supports this project. And with that, I think Mr. Farhad was going to come back up, and any questions you have for staff. Mr. Chair, thanks again for the opportunity. GRAY: Thank you, Ms. Jacobs. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 10 of 97 Commissioners, anything for Ms. Jacobs before she steps down? KOVACEVIC: You know how many apartment units are in Fountain Hills right now? JACOBS: So Mr. Chair, Mr. Dan -- you have to help me with your last words, Commissioner -- I don't have all the units off the top of my head, but I'm so glad you brought that up, because that was a point I forgot. So you have about four different complexes. One is ownership and rental. And I'll tell you, too, we're at over 90 percent, and that has occurred since last March. And so what I've shared with Council in all of my economic development reports is we have a supply/demand issue. And this girl was almost moving to Mesa or Chandler, but the stars aligned. So I was able to -- to find a place. But I will have to get back to you on all the number of units, but about five to six complexes, if that helps, and all in the 90 percentile. DEMPSTER: For rentals? JACOBS: Correct. DEMPSTER: Five to six. So there's -- JACOBS: Apartment units. DEMPSTER: -- pillar -- JACOBS: Yes. DEMPSTER: Pillar is houses; that's rentals 147. JACOBS: They call themselves, though, apartments. DEMPSTER: Yeah. But the -- so 147 -- JACOBS: We got -- DEMPSTER: -- they're Park Place -- JACOBS: We got Pillar; we got Four Peaks; we got Lunar (sic); we got Park Place. DEMPSTER: Four Peaks is -- JACOBS: There's one more. So that's a combo of rentals. There's one more. DEMPSTER: Oh, there's like, little -- the nine here and there -- JACOBS: Yes. DEMPSTER: -- like, the nine and the six. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 11 of 97 JACOBS: But that still counts. DEMPSTER: Yep. JACOBS: And we have a couple planned off of Glenbrook. DEMPSTER: So the smaller projects that we've approved, but the big ones would be Park Place, Pillar, and Lunar -- Luna. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Amanda, can you help me understand? You said this would help the workforce employment -- or the housing for the workforce, but the rental rates that are projected suggest without any add-ons, without any deposits, without any amenities, so to speak, that the minimum would be -- require a $60,000-a-year income just for the one- bedroom and as much as $100,000 a year income for the three-bedroom. So how do you get workforce housing opportunity out of a 15 to $20 an hour pay rate for what we're looking for in the town for -- to support the businesses? JACOBS: So Mr. Chair and Commissioner Watts, I'm going to defer that for when the Applicant comes up for how they're pricing that. I don't have control over that. And if they can share some conversations we have, you know, spoken about with the couple of our major employers. WATTS: So I'm going to put you on the spot. They told us that it was anticipated to be $2 and hour -- $2 a square foot as the projected rental rate without amenities, without any add-ons, without deposits. I would assume that you would have -- in order to make the statement about workforce housing, that you would have backed into what the projected annual income would be required and what our current town supports as far as that. So 15 to $20 an hour only gets you to $40,000, not near the $60,000 a year annual income. So I'd ask you to think about that one, and I'll hear from the applicant -- 60 to -- 60 to $100,000 a year for income for these -- for workforce housing doesn't qualify. JACOBS: That's -- that would be correct. WATTS: Thank you. JACOBS: But again, I'll share -- I'll have the Applicant share more. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 12 of 97 GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Yeah. Can you please help us understand what the occupancy rate is here in Fountain Hills in the summertime during the -- you know, when the snowbirds are gone? JACOBS: So Mr. Chair, and then Commissioner Dapaah, so it's still -- so again, the entire time that I've been here, when it comes to apartment units, it's over 90 percent. And then we recently -- so again, as I've been focusing on both the retention and business attraction part and hearing from some folks that they're like, I was looking at Fountain Hills, but I spoke to one person -- and right, we make an impression in seven seconds -- they said half the population leaves. So I'm not coming to Fountain Hills. So we recently, through some grant funding, was able to do a tourism impact study. And so through that we asked them to look at other things, and what they're saying is about 11.8 percent leave, so not half the population. DAPAAH: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: I don't want to chase that rabbit too far, but of that 11.8, you have to assume a large portion of those are owners, not renters. Right? If you bifurcated that between the two, your renters are probably more likely -- assuming we're talking about twelve- month terms, right, they're not likely to be really blended into that 11.8. JACOBS: Possibly. GRAY: I mean, I think I could make that assumption pretty reasonably. Commissioner Dapaah, do you have another question for Ms. Jacobs? DAPAAH: No, no, I'm good, Chairman. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner. I wanted to ask you a question from a different perspective, different angle. And we got some -- we got some comment cards and emails to this effect over the last couple days here. And I've had a similar disposition, a little, little twist on it, but it's similar. When you look at Fountain Hills and economic development and business retention -- and I think you stated here tonight it's predominantly a service industry, right? I mean, that's that is the lion's share of Fountain Hills economy -- what are your thoughts about -- you know, as we blend -- you can look at the general plan and you can say, yep, meets my TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 13 of 97 objectives from this angle, yep, meets it from this angle. It's kind of got something for everybody, and you can kind of make an argument any which way off of that, right? What is your disposition, as we look at the redevelopment language in the plan and in your strategy plan from back in September, you know, related to changing that mix, right? I mean, as you look at as we look at this parcel and adjacent parcels to it, you know, if you go back to its original zoning intent, which I fully acknowledge, it's now C2 as the underlying, do you not look at that and say, hey, you know what, it's a 20-minute parcel to Phoenix Sky Harbor. It can go north, south, east, or west, predominantly south -- and I guess it can't really go east, can it? Predominantly south and west, right? Do you not look at that and just kind of salivate over it and go, gosh, if I could go out and bring in, you know, good idea, A, B, and C, this is exactly where that anchor, that employment anchor would want to land? JACOBS: So Mr. Gray -- so yes, the goal is to start changing the mix from what we currently have, but to also attract and change some of that industry. This is what we hear. We need diverse housing. We need options. Not everyone's going to buy over $600,000 home. So whether that's bioscience, thinking even of folks on an assembly line. So if I was here 20 years ago, yeah, like, it would have been nice, you know, that whole area industrial. But right now we have the commercial. Some of that commercial is dying. Amazon effect. Thank you, COVID-19. And so I feel like this is the best use, and there are other areas we're working on to hopefully rezone and redevelop to get more of, again, assembly in a lighter way, not too intense, and those bioscience companies. And I'll just say to you, I know there were comments maybe too, about Aura Valley. So some of you know that is where I'm from, Aura Valley. We had a bioscience corridor. So I tell you too, and working with some of those major employers, who had 1400 employees to 500 to 80, that not all of them were interested in buying a home. So it's -- again, I always hear chicken and egg, but we need to do something about the housing situation in order to start changing some of those industries. It's my professional opinion. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 14 of 97 GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Corey, did you have anything? No? COREY: No. Just thank you for sharing your perspective on this. Appreciate it. JACOBS: You're very welcome. I appreciate the opportunity. GRAY: Thank you, Ms. Jacobs. JACOBS: You're welcome. GRAY: You get one more? Commissioner, Watts? WATTS: Amanda, before you run away. Sorry. GRAY: She was going home. WATTS: You thought you were done; you're not. If you didn't have economic in your title, then I wouldn't be asking these questions. JACOBS: But I'm not running, I'm just strolling. WATTS: But the reality is that even with the 60 to $100,000 annual salaries that is going to be required to support these units on a rental basis, there's a concept of disposable income as well. So when you project the disposable income and compare it to what we've lost in revenue from our sales tax, that $655,000 is gone. This only brings us about $120,000 in revenue. That's going to expire at the end of next year. So what's the benefit, other than the one-time construction fees, that this is going to bring when you consider we're not going to get any more revenue from it except the one time? JACOBS: So the benefit, to your point, is the one-time sales construction tax. You have 316 -- so again, I'm being very conservative. Everyone's a single person. They are contributing -- when you're bringing people, they're going to contribute to the local economy. They're contributing to that Target that maybe it's not the top four like a fourth or maybe it's -- it's number one. It is -- assists with the other retention. And then as I'm saying, I get that this is a loss. We have to weigh all these things, but we have folks knocking on our door saying we're committed to doing commercial. Also, if you look at 316, I know it's not a lot, but when you look at state shared revenue, as our population continues to grow, which again, we do have other municipalities outpacing us in that area, that is something that is sometimes lost. But really -- and then talking TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 15 of 97 with our CFO, it's really these folks contributing to the local economy. WATTS: Well, I think that I would ask that we talk to the CFO from the economic development platform and say, what's the projected disposable income for these people, the potential renters? See what that equates to and see if the investment on the town's part is worth it, because I'm trying to figure out what the benefit is to the town. And right now I see more potential harm than I do see benefit because of what it could do to the other businesses here in town. If the expansion -- and I don't like the idea of becoming Scottsdale or Fountain Hills. So making that equation doesn't work for me. But if we do make a waterfront and we continue to expand that property, I don't see any support -- written support from Target at this point on they're a proponent or opponent of the project. And if we make it a Scottsdale waterfront equivalent and we put more businesses in there, aren't we going to actually detract from the potential business that is in the town center right now? And if we are, acknowledge it and let's change the concept of the town center to make it something different than what it is now. But to harm the existing businesses, I think, would be a disservice to our existing. JACOBS: It sounds like it was all just a comment. WATTS: No, but it was. But the question is, look at what the potential for disposable income is compared to the rental rates and what the projected annual salaries need to be to support that. What kind of money do you think we'll get based on the 2.9 percent that we've got now for sales tax? JACOBS: We can look into that. WATTS: Thank you. JACOBS: You're welcome. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: I would imagine there's probably situations where there's dual income there as well. So that may help some of the folks. Amanda, do you know what the situation has been with some of those local businesses that are in the plaza right now? Like, do you talk with any of those business owners, including up to Target? So kind of like what commissioner was saying, we don't know TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 16 of 97 what their position is here, but have you heard anything from them, if something like this in that plaza would be beneficial to those businesses? JACOBS: So Mr. Chair, Commissioner Corey, I have spoken to the businesses. Again, please note I'm not representing any of these folks, but I did have the opportunity to speak to a regional director of Target, and they're very supportive. Again, when you're saying there's 316, being completely conservative, that is very exciting. They also shared -- so we know that the home and garden has kind of shut off. They asked just questions of, you know, you're not going to give that part, though, away, like that is still ours. Maybe we're going to grow in a couple, you know, years, four to five years. So it was very positive. But again, not representing Target, just sharing my conversation with them. COREY: Okay. Thank you. JACOBS: You're very welcome. DEMPSTER: So Target but the other businesses as well? JACOBS: So I've spoken to a couple, and again, they're very supportive. DEMPSTER: Thank you. JACOBS: You're welcome. GRAY: Mr. Tavassoli? Amanda, I think you're free. JACOBS: Thank you. I'm going to walk back, not run. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, questions of Farhad off the initial presentation? Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. Hi. So I'm excited about having something done at the Plaza, and I thought the packet was very thorough. Thank you. And just a quick note, we did get several speaker cards that were against and people did not wish to speak, but there was no reason, and it's really helpful for us to know a reason why someone is against a project, whether it's height or volume or number of units or just to give us a little something, information to work with. So keep that in mind. If you do submit a card in the future, make sure you TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 17 of 97 validate your -- or you know, give us a little information. Thank you. But Farhad, I have a couple questions. With the Sanitary District, are they able to support a building of this size and the needs? Is that part of the initial package? FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Dempster, the -- the Fountain Hills Sanitary District did feel comfortable to move forward with -- for us to move forward with the rezone request. There are some issues with the -- I believe, one of the water -- reclamation lines that will need to be worked out, but that will be addressed at the building permit stage should this be approved. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. And I know in the past we talked about bike racks and things that -- I know this is a minor item, but I didn't know if that has gotten into our requirements and if there were bike racks proposed for -- I saw electric vehicle stations. But do you recall if there was a spot for bike racks? FARHAD: Not specifically, no. DEMPSTER: Okay. And then can I? GRAY: Go ahead. DEMPSTER: Okay. Do you know the current height of Target, the existing? FARHAD: I believe, the maximum height, Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Dempster, for the Target center is 30 feet. DEMPSTER: 30 feet. With the parking, I'm concerned with that as well. I appreciate the comparison to Scottsdale and Phoenix. But Scottsdale and Phoenix has a great deal of public transportation, which, you know, we try here. I think we have one bus coming in and out. So that is a concern of mine as well. So I'll be interested to hear more about the parking piece there. I saw the elevators. All right. I will conclude. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yeah, just one follow-up to the height. I believe I read that the area that this building would be constructed is lower -- is just kind of lower than where the Target -- Target building is. So if we're looking at the 55 -- is it 50 or 55 -- 55-foot height and TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 18 of 97 Target is at 30, what is the difference? Because it's my understanding that the building is actually going to sit a little bit lower where it's being built. FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Corey, I'd have to look at the topography a little bit more closely to see, you know, what exactly -- you know, where the finished floors are situated. COREY: Maybe they could answer that for us when they come up here. FARHAD: Yeah. COREY: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: And with regards to the height, I assume the benchmark is the PAD height, not a benchmark somewhere else, like a datum point? FARHAD: It will -- the height is from the natural -- natural grade. WATTS: Natural grade. FARHAD: By natural grade, we go by the 1991 topography. WATTS: Got you. Because I think that area is actually higher than Target, if I'm looking at it correctly. So it looks like it could be significantly higher. But nonetheless -- I could, yes, the marble will go downhill. That's how I found out. As far as traffic, who provided the traffic study and what type of traffic study was it? FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Watts, I don't recall. GRAY: It was Kimley-Horn. FARHAD: Kimley-Horn. Okay. WATTS: It was Kimley-Horn? GRAY: Yeah. WATTS: Okay. FARHAD: And I've provided the executive summary of that -- WATTS: Okay. FARHAD: -- traffic study in the packet. WATTS: And we made an exception with the parking to allow the two-foot, six-inch overhang to be part of the overall dimension of the parking space; why was that? Is that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 19 of 97 typical? FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, frankly, I don't recall that -- that exception. WATTS: There's a footnote on the bottom of that schedule. Let me get to it. I left that particular page at home. Sorry. FARHAD: Okay. Yeah, I can have the -- that would be one of the deviations from the -- the base zoning standards I can have -- WATTS: That seemed like a pretty significant -- two feet, six inches to -- as part of the parking dimension, the overall 19 foot. So really cutting it down to, like, 15 feet or so in depth. Is that -- that seems awfully small. And if you look at the bottom of your schedule, there's an asterisk there -- FARHAD: Right. WATTS: -- that says the two foot six inches -- FARHAD: Right. WATTS: Yeah. So that, I think, is something we need to address as well to make sure that they're manageable parking spaces. Thank you. GRAY: Is that -- is your asterisk there, though -- I don't see that on page 104 of the packet. So is that asterisk rooted in the ordinance or is that rooted in the application? Do you -- FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, what you're seeing here is a snippet from the PAD document. GRAY: Okay. So there's another -- another table in here. Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Yeah. While we're on the subject of parking, can we go back to your -- I think it was the one of the first couple slides you had about the outline, the parking -- had the numbers on it -- no, it was -- it was a parking -- FARHAD: This? KOVACEVIC: Yes. FARHAD: This right here. Page 102. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Yeah. So okay -- so we have 63 surface spots, 498 in the structure, and the required is 637 under the ordinance; is that correct? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 20 of 97 FARHAD: Correct. KOVACEVIC: Okay. FARHAD: They're requesting 63 less than what would typically be required. KOVACEVIC: And then from the zoning density standpoint, R-5, is that our most lenient, the highest density zoning that we have for apartments? FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner, yes, that is the, I guess you'd say, the most intense of the multifamily designations. KOVACEVIC: Okay. And that's 25 units an acre. FARHAD: I believe -- KOVACEVIC: It's 25 units an acre. FARHAD: John might have better access to the zoning ordinance, but yeah, I believe it's -- I'm going to say it's about, from what I recall, one per 2000 square feet, one dwelling unit per 2000 square feet of area. KOVACEVIC: Yeah. 43,560 square feet an acre. So the math works to about 22. And this project's 45 units an acre? FARHAD: 47 units an acre. KOVACEVIC: 47 units an acre. So we would be doubling our most intense usage under the ordinance currently permissible? FARHAD: Seemingly so. KOVACEVIC: Okay. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Yes. Farhad, you made mention of a reclamation lines issue. Is that existing or is that something that is going to be caused by this rezoning? FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Dapaah, it's not going to be caused by the rezoning per se, but as mentioned earlier, the relocation of that specific line will be required prior to final inspection of the development. Actually, it would -- it would need to be documented clearly before approval. Otherwise, the Sanitary District will not sign off on it. DAPAAH: Okay. You -- are you able to speak on the details of that that issue? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 21 of 97 FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner, I'm not sure if I'm -- I have the background to speak specifically on the on the water line and where it will be relocated to. DAPAAH: All right. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner, that'll be picked up during the building permit process. DAPAAH: All right. GRAY: Farhad, two additional questions for you, one on height versus setbacks. So typically what I'm used to in a PUD or PAD application is if you're going to exceed the underlying zoning, then you typically default to a one foot of setback for every foot of height, which would put this at 55 feet off the property line. And I'm curious, from staff perspective, what in your opinion allows for 55 and 30? It just seems like the ratio is awfully tall for a 30-foot setback. FARHAD: Right. I see your point. GRAY: Where -- you know, if we were -- if we were amenable to a 55-foot building height, then typically it would be a 55-foot landscape setback. FARHAD: Right. Yeah. I don't see that issue so much with the -- the portion facing Shea Boulevard, because then you have the existing channel there and -- be a little cautious to estimate what exactly that setback is. But to me it's clearly more than 55 feet. The issue would be here along Technology Drive. I believe that setback is well under 55 feet. In fact, if I look specifically at the site plan -- GRAY: On Technology they're showing 30 in the PAD application. COREY: I'm seeing a 30-foot setback on -- along Technology there. It's called out right here. GRAY: So we're in effect treating Technology Drive as back of house? COREY: Right. GRAY: And has it been your experience that -- I mean, I realize the adjacent zoning is largely industrial, but the parcel that would be to the west -- well, I guess any parcel that abuts along Technology -- is it your thought that a 55-foot building hiding a 30-foot setback is equitable to those owners? I mean, would we allow the same? It just seems -- the ratio seems wrong to me. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 22 of 97 COREY: I mean, as a -- as I mentioned, the property directly across the street it -- you know, that -- based on what we've seen from the deed by the donor, that will remain open. And the question would be more pertinent to some of these properties to the south and I guess the vacant former Walgreens across the street, although it's not quite as close here, but -- GRAY: Okay. It just an inquiry. And then my other one is -- I had a lot of the same notes that other commissioners have already talked about, so I won't belabor those. But once upon a time before most of us sat up here -- all of us, I think -- the Park Place PAD went through, and then ultimately at some point in time the Town realized that fire apparatus weren't sufficient to support that structure. And we ended up buying a brand new fancy fire truck with a long ladder on it. We're now saying this going to be 55 feet tall at certain points of its evaluation, and I'm looking at the accesses and fire lanes in -- Technology, I'll just pick on that. Yeah, other than the eastern boundary, it appears to me that Technology Drive is doubling as fire access. And as I read through the application and the packet, the only reference to Chief Ott weighing in on this was that it's, you know, 2.4 miles from Fire Station 2, or 1, to this location. But what do we know about Fountain Hills -- Is it Fountain Hills Fire now? Soon to be. Soon to Fountain Hills Fire. What do we know about our equipment's ability to service this geometry and at these heights? I don't want to see us put additional burden on the Town because we make another good idea based off of -- passed another good idea based off of pleasant architecture, et cetera. COREY: You know, Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure how well equipped we are to respond to any emergencies here with -- GRAY: So I -- COREY: -- our fire apparatus. GRAY: I guess ultimately my note -- my reservation tonight, I -- I mean, I certainly want to -- I want to hear out the public. I want to hear out the applicant, but I don't think that we would be -- I would not be in a place to want to cast a vote for, certainly, not TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 23 of 97 knowing that. That's an awfully impactful burden to Town services, so I'm just going to keep that note, and we'll walk through tonight. But again, I think that's a pretty important box for us to tick, so. Commissioners, any other questions of Farhad? Let's go ahead and hear from the applicant, Mr. Morris. MORRIS: Down at the bottom. There we go. Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. MORRIS: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, thank you very much. Jason Morris, Withey Morris, on behalf of the applicant Sandor. And we're also fortunate to have part of our architecture team. We have the development team and ownership here this evening as well. And to the extent that you didn't receive answers that were satisfactory, we'll make ourselves available in Mr. Tavassoli's absence and hopefully be able to answer any of the questions that were just raised so that you certainty moving forward. This is a rare opportunity. And it's a rare opportunity not only for the Town, but it's a rare opportunity for property owner that has held this property for over a decade and been a good corporate citizen. Frankly, one of your larger property owners within the Town. And as we heard referenced earlier, also one of the largest sales tax generators in the form of just one of the single entities on site, if not the single largest sales tax generator for the Town. So as we look at what you're seeing today and what you have an opportunity to vote on, it is the culmination not just of the zoning application. But it's the culmination of years of work on behalf of ownership to turn around essentially an aircraft carrier, which you have to do very, very slowly in order to make something positive, not only for the property owner, but also for the Town. Because what's being proposed this evening is not just about the applicant, and it shouldn't be. It's about the impact upon the Town as well, and we believe an incredibly positive impact. You're well aware of the site now. We had an opportunity to talk about the location, but we're talking and focused on this roughly six and half acre site that is a portion of the existing shopping center. As you're aware, the Four Peaks Plaza has been TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 24 of 97 underutilized and is continued to be underutilized for years. And whether we want to blame the pandemic or shopping patterns, what we know is it is not as it stands today a successful retail experience adding benefit to the Town as a whole. It can, however, have those attributes. But we also look at some of the challenges of this site. And frankly, as we get further into the presentation we'll see that some of the site challenges from a retail perspective because it is below the level of Shea Boulevard, because visibility is so obscured, that actually works to the benefit of the portion of the application that you're seeing today. This is a rare site that hits all of the marks for a multi-family opportunity. And I say that having worked on dozens of similar opportunities around the valley, around the state. But rarely do you find a site that has good traffic exposure and individualized traffic intersection control, which allows properties to not be impacted in terms of single family residential around you, where you don't have visibility issues blocking views, or looking into homes. So you have both view shed protection and you have privacy protection. You have traffic that leads directly out to an arterial at a signalized intersection without going through a neighborhood. It has, frankly, responses to all of the things that are typically plaguing other multi-family sites and, in fact, have plagued other multi-family sites that have been in front of this Planning Commission. But importantly, even if we just follow the existing general plan, it is a recent general plan update from 2020 and an even more recent economic study for the revitalization and redevelopment of the Town and specifically this corridor. It's literally less than nine -- I'm sorry, 90 days old. All of those lead this Planning Commission and ultimately the planning staff to a recommendation of approval. We've talked about the challenges. You've heard those referenced, not only from economic development but also from planning staff. That we have 65,000 square feet of unoccupied space. And that number in and of itself is a significant portion of the vacant retail within the Town itself. It under performs as we look at -- well, we've got a slide that addresses this -- but it underperforms relative to its type across the board. Whether it's the type of user, whether it's the size of shopping center, it is TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 25 of 97 underperforming. And we can talk about whether that is online shopping, the closure of brick and mortar, the fact that most new retail has gone to a different size user, or the fact that retail itself is changing to more experiential services. And experiences that can't be ordered on the internet are typically what we're seeing as part of retail experiences, but those retail experiences need people. And this in fact is the solution to that. I talked about the individual performance of stores. Let's just focus on the Target, because Target in and of itself is not only a rationale for why this application is moving forward, but frankly what's being proposed helps both the Town and Target to be successful by adding bodies to this area and creating what your general plan is requesting, which is a mixed-use opportunity in this area. And it's no secret, and I've shared with the Town, and I think Target has also shared with the Town that this is the least successful and the last place finisher in all of Arizona in terms of sales and traffic. The visibility challenges that we've referenced -- you're very well of aware of this. This is your Town. This is your shopping center. This is your arterial roadways, so you know the limited visibility. Fortunately, as residents you know what's here, but you couldn't know what's here, you couldn't know what's within the shopping center if you just simply drove by on Shea Boulevard. Between the 75-foot wide drainage channel and the differential in grade overall, visibility is extremely poor from the site. But again, ironically, that leads to a perfect site for multi-family opportunity because of your ability to fit it in within the context of the site. Your general plan that I've referenced, you know, talks about infill and redevelopment on this specific site. Your economic development plan references this site specifically and talks about mix-use opportunity and bringing mixed use to this site. This is the economic development study that referenced not only by your own economic development staff, but what was for city council just recently. And it specifically references the Four Peaks Plaza. In essence we have done what your general plan and what your economic development study is asking of us. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 26 of 97 And this is not an issue just for Fountain Hills, but it's exacerbated by the some of the challenges that Fountain Hills represents. But in general this is what is happening valleywide and is -- and as a reference, statewide. We are seeing shopping centers that are right-sizing themselves from a retail perspective. They're reducing the overall retail, and in place of that retail they're adding multi-family in order to create spending, in order to create a larger demographic for the area, and to add life to a shopping center that -- all of you have been there. I don't need to describe the shape that shopping center is in now. As you look at the site itself, our portion that we're focused in is the 6.7 acres at the southeast corner of Shea and Technology. Again, the fact that we have access both to the arterial and to Technology Drive at a signalized intersection is very usual, but very beneficial to the land use that we're requesting. Add to that the fact that our neighboring zoning district is largely industrial or open space, again, adds to the benefits of this use in a mixed-use context. I'll also point out, again, as you're likely aware, although that area behind us is industrial -- and we can talk about corporate relocations and what we could do with industrial and turning back the clock and what would've happened if this was industrial today. The reality is the largest portion and the majority of that industrial area is used as storage -- truck rental storage, closed bay/open bay storage. It's not used as manufacturing, and it's generating zero employment. The site itself has been discussed. We're looking at vacant shop space largely being converted into a community of residents and a community of residents with all the modern amenities -- all the luxury amenities that were stated. And we can talk about what that project looks like and what it is modeled after, but in general the idea is to breathe life into this, so that you're backfilling a shopping center, not just the Target, and I can tell you these conversations with Target it -- and I think I've referenced it in some of our early conversations. The conversations with Target were ongoing for months, and it spread into years, to make sure their concerns were addressed with this new use and to get them excited TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 27 of 97 about having this as a neighbor for the benefit of their sales and the success of their store. But it also -- because we talked about the economic impact, it's not just Target. And frankly this isn't an altruistic application. This property owner has assembled land and moved tenants and hired architecture and engineering and traffic engineering teams and zoning consultants in order to make the rest of the shopping center successful and be the best version of itself for the Town of Fountain Hills. Filling it with just any tenants really isn't that much of a challenge. But filling it with good tenants, good restaurants, good experiences, good services, and a healthy amount of traffic is, and that's what this applicant is bringing before you. The site itself is wrapped around a parking structure. That in and of itself is important, because we've talked about those parking numbers. And I'd like to share with you some of the back story for this. First of all, the idea of a parking structure is a better parking experience for multi-family residents. Often times they are at the same level as their unit, so they're walking from their unit to their car without having to go use an elevator or stairs. But even when they do it's in close proximity to the unit itself. We've referenced in the application and talked about the importance of adequate parking. So because that's been a question of the Planning Commission, I'm take a moment and talk about that. I'm happy to talk about that at length, but if you look at the number of bedrooms that are proposed on this site, the idea -- just as a rule of thumb, and the idea of having adequate parking for this site, we have more than one parking space for every bedroom that's on this site. We have roughly 561 spaces. We have roughly 502 bedrooms, which means there is ample parking because we know, first of all, it's never going to be permanently at 100 percent occupancy. As much as you would love that occur, the reality and the existence of these communities just means it's not going to be at 100 percent. But even if it was at 100 percent, we could accommodate it. So certainly less than 100 percent. And knowing that the demographic, especially today more than ever, uses a second bedroom more often than not as an office when they can and there is more working from home than ever means that these ratios -- and you saw the ratios earlier -- it isn't TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 28 of 97 the Fountain Hills ratio, but it is higher than the City of Scottsdale ratio. It is higher than the City of Phoenix ratio. We want to ensure that we have adequate parking, both guest parking and resident parking, and that it's convenient, because that's how you keep tenants. But let's talk about what occurs if there is overflow parking. One of the reasons Fountain Hills, and you as a planning commission, are so focused on parking and making sure parking is adequate for multi-family uses is because oftentimes overflow parking goes on the streets and it goes into neighborhoods. In this instance neither one of those two things would happen. We have hundreds of spaces adjacent to this community that would be the first spaces used if for some reason we were off. And of those hundreds of spaces -- keep in mind even your parking code shows us only roughly 60-odd spaces -- 65 spaces -- 66 spaces short. So parking is not an issue or a concern, and hopefully it won't be for the Planning Commission. The units itself allows both one-bedrooms, two-bedrooms, and a small percentage of three-bedrooms. The lot coverage -- and this is important. The lot coverage isn't maxing things out, because -- I know we were just talking about setbacks earlier, and Mr. Chair, you specially asked about what a good setback should be. Oftentimes setbacks are directly relative to the open space. And we have more open space that's being required. It's also relative to where the height is being felt and what the surrounding uses are. And as you pointed out, we're adjacent to an industrial use, we adjacent to open space, and we're 135 feet before you get to Shea, which is really how this community is going to be experienced. That is the closest point. While we were talking about parking, Commissioner Watts also had a question about the overhang. And I want to clarify that because clearly you're looking at the asterisks. That asterisk refers only to parking spaces adjacent to the drainage channel, which is on the far northern portion, so our surface parking, not our other spaces, not the bulk of the spaces, and only those spaces that are up against the drainage channel so that they can have some additional room for landscaping. So it's a very small number of the overall spaces, and I didn't want that to concern the Planning Commission. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 29 of 97 We found an architectural style that we not only know works and is somewhat timeless, but also something that allows us to work with the balance of the center to make sure there's continuity with the new development and the old so it registers as one and feels as one experience from end to end. As you can see there's a series of materials, overhangs. There's depth; there's a lot of relief. It's not a flat façade at any point, and it's obviously utilizing outdoor space and indoor space, as well as common space. Importantly we focused on the connection between the shopping experience and the residential experience, so it is true mixed use. It's a vertical mixed use that allows us -- I'm sorry, a horizontal mixed use that allows us to bring people from one end to another, and backfills and supports those areas. But just as importantly, the rest of the center becomes an amenity for these residents. I mean, I think we've all been in the position where it's very nice not to have to get into your car and you can walk, especially weather permitting, and take advantage of the rest of a shopping center or areas nearby. The amenities, as was pointed out, are significant, everything from cabanas by the pool to areas within the community room itself. We're talking about coworking space. We're talking about fitness areas and a series of passive and active amenity and recreation space, including pet-friendly spaces. I referenced at the outset one of the challenges we typically have -- and we're fortunate to work all over the state, but when we're working on multi-family cases, we hear traffic almost immediately. And we hear views and we hear privacy. This is that rare opportunity to address all of those. As we look at the grading differential -- and I think this was referenced earlier by the Planning Commission -- you are in a bowl, and the bowl ranges anywhere from about 8 to 14 feet depending upon the portion of the site we're talking about, versus the Shea elevation. And we're not even talking about the additional elevation from the homes on the north side of Shea. So the site sits below the roadway, and that, obviously, helps this use because you're essentially swallowing that first story of the project from Shea TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 30 of 97 Boulevard. This gives you a line of sight that better explains that and gives you a sense of from Shea Boulevard and the homes on the northside Shea Boulevard what that differential over -- the 580 feet before we hit the first house, which again, is a rarity. Typically when we're redeveloping a shopping center we have homes behind the shopping center, and that's not the case with this. But you can see the differential in grading. You can also see the impact of the line of sight. Similarly, when we photo simulate the new community into the shopping center site, you get a sense of what that view is from the driveway immediately along Trevino across from the site. And this gives you both the inset showing where that picture and where that view line is from, as well as a real life scenario of what the tops of the buildings would be visible as from that site. As you go higher up on Monterey, looking back towards this, obviously, you've got more distance, and therefore, you're seeing much more of the horizon, much less impact. And I think what's significant from this site is, first of all, the homes that are closer -- really the homes that are on Trevino viewed from Monterey have a much bigger impact. And you can see how the context of the residential building fits into the context of the rest of the shopping center. It does not stick up. I know there's a question, I think it was Commissioner Dempster, who was asking the height of the building. The actual height of the Target building is from 42 to 45 feet. Our roofline of the new building is 51 feet. So when you're viewing that from a roadway context anywhere surrounding this property, it is essentially the same height. You're talking about plus or minus, you know, six feet. And then, of course, there's a parapet, but the parapets are not the entire roofline. The parapets are what go to 55 feet, but the roofline itself is about 51 feet. Well, look at that, I anticipated the next -- that doesn't always happen. So this gives you a better sense of what that differential is between the two buildings side by side. And I'll also point out again -- Chair Gray, you had asked about the setback. The closest setback at 15 -- is to Target, our neighbor, and our own essential commercial property owner, rather than putting our closest setback to any third party outside. And we have TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 31 of 97 tried to honor the R-5 setbacks, and in fact exceed them. But you're right; our roof height is taller than a R-5. Traffic is the other item we typically hear when we're talking about how to place a multi-family development within any jurisdiction. In this instance, you can see that Kimley-Horn was the traffic engineer. If you're familiar with their work, they're very good at what they do, and they have a nationwide practice. The daily total in this trip generation shows that the existing zoning would be 680 trips greater than the proposed zoning, so essentially it is a drop in traffic. Now, as was pointed out to us, that involves a shopping center that's successful and has tenants. And I think some credit should be given to the property owner that they haven't accepted just any tenant to fill the space. They have a vision for what this shopping center can be, and it's not just about what's good for them. It truly is what could be beneficial for the entire area. But as you see that the only place that there's an increase traffic is the AM peak, and that's a total of 22 cars. But more importantly as you look at the level of service, which is how intersections are graded, there is no intersection that's a D or F at buildout, which, you know -- frankly these are not like your report card grades, which I'm sure for all six of you were stellar. They are much more related to levels of service for traffic, so it's not uncommon to see F intersections. They're numerous F intersections around the valley. So this is high functioning traffic, and this just depicts what those two levels of service look like. Now, I'm also not here to tell you there isn't traffic in Fountain Hills, especially seasonally, and especially depending on the time of day and when you're trying to go. But I can tell you the impact of what's proposed is actually a decease, not an increase, in traffic overall. So when we look at where you place this type of development and why you would do this, it's hard to ignore the facts that staff -- your professional staff relied upon when making their recommendation. They looked at the general plan. They looked at your economic study. They looked at what the community has asked for in this area. They TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 32 of 97 looked at the status of the current shopping center and the specifics in the zoning ordinance and recognized the site lines aren't impacted, the view corridors aren't impacted, the traffic is positively impacted, and this will give economic life to the rest of the shopping center if given an opportunity to develop. So for those reasons and the reasons you see listed there, we would very much urge your support and recommendation of approval. I'm also happy to answer any of the questions that didn't get answered earlier. Besides I think there were some specific ones and I'll -- I know you'd like to hear from the public as well, but we can also talk about the demographics and the rents and the impacts and who our target market is. So with that thank you very much. I know you've indulged me and given me a lot of time, but I had a lot to cover, and I look forward to discussing anything else with you. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Morris. We appreciate the presentation. Commissioners, questions of Mr. Morris? Commissioner Watts. WATTS: I would like to know on that third bullet point who you think the majority of your target renters are going to be. I'm sure you've done -- I can't remember that name -- MORRIS: Okay. The third (indiscernible) part -- WATTS: Yeah, the -- MORRIS: -- of your bullet point. WATTS: The organization that you used -- that you plan on using for renter management -- property management -- MORRIS: Yes. WATTS: -- I'm sure they've done some demographics about who the available renters are. Who do they identify? MORRIS: Well, frankly, the first thing they look at -- not only the community service that were looking -- that we're working with, who is a national service and obviously very familiar with this market. But more importantly, the very first thing we would look at is what is the vacancy rate in the Town of Fountain Hills. Before we look at who the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 33 of 97 demographic would be, is there a need? Is there demand for what we're doing? And you've heard, and we've verified, your numbers are astronomical. So to have consistent, year-round vacancy rates that are in the 90 percent -- or occupancy rates that are in 90 percent lead us to make this investment. And I really didn't focus on the investment, and I should have. In order to make this a reality, you've got a shopping center owner that is essentially doubling down on Fountain Hills, because instead of just trying to rent what they had, they took the long term approach and said, what if moved tenants, and what if we bought additional land that was, you know, these vacant pads next to us in order to make this work. So they did. And they did that knowing that there was an occupancy need in this area. So then we look at what the target is. Well, in talking to the school district, we know they've already done an internal survey that if a community like this, at the rents -- which, you know, $2 is probably the high end -- it's likely because fortunately, our land basis is obviously very good. We own the shopping center. So if you take the land costs out as you're doing your pro forma, it gives you a little bit more flexibility than a typical developer going in and also buying land and doing construction and development. So if you look at anything from $1.85 to $2 a square foot, these units though -- the majority of the them are one-bedroom and two-bedroom units. That puts you -- I think the one-bedroom units are about 728, and I think the two-bedrooms are about 930, give or take. Those at $1.85 to $2 are still on the 1,300 to -- you know, a single bedroom is around 1,300, which, again, not exactly workforce housing, but for what the need is and what our demographic that we see within the Town of Fountain Hills, very achievable. The two-bedrooms are particularly achievable if you're thinking that there're two residents that could potentially be with that. You're talking about a sub-$1,000 rent for a two-bedroom being shared. So that is actually achievable from that standpoint from a workforce housing. The three bedrooms are likely going to be people who want extra space, who want a home office, who want to perhaps -- you know, they have a child or they may have the need to use additional space for whatever their profession requires. That's a very small TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 34 of 97 portion of the overall. I think that's five percent of the overall. So as you look at the one- and two-bedroom, it actually does allow folks who are renters by choice, people who will take an extra bedroom for themselves and use that as an office or extra space. Perhaps they have guests. Or a one-bedroom being utilized by an individual is still, you know, sub-$1,500 a month. So we believe you cover several different demographics, and I think anyone who is building a new community is going to rely on several different demographics, not just one. We're not posing ourselves as the solution for every housing issue in Fountain Hills, but we're recognizing that you have a very low inventory of available rentals. You have major employers who have said if the rentals were there, our employees would take them at these rates. And we have people who are still moving here. WATTS: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Yes. Thank you, Jason. I enjoyed that presentation. I appreciate the research that you did with the other tenants -- MORRIS: Thank you. COREY: -- so we know that they're supportive. I also appreciate the continuity with the existing building -- that would be important to know that we're going to get a similar look and feel -- and also for mentioning walkability, which is part of strategic plan, and that's very important. Question about lot coverage. I heard that we were going to use less -- what was it 45 versus 50 percent lot coverage? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, Mr. Corey, that's correct. We're below the maximum lot coverage. COREY: Okay. MORRIS: And we exceed many of the setbacks. COREY: Okay. So with a little bit more open space, what are your plans there? Are there going to be more outdoor spaces, trees, landscaping, sidewalks? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, Commissioner, correct. It actually allows us much more landscaping than you would typically find. We're fortunate that this is being proposed TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 35 of 97 as a wrap, what we call a wrapped development, meaning all of the parking is hiding in a parking structure. And you see this around the Town; there's surface parking, which means there's more asphalt; there's less landscaping, and it's just visually less appealing, and it adds to the heat island. This is largely landscaped area and concrete and then walking that paths that, selfishly, take you to the shopping center itself. So as we said it's an amenity, but it's not entirely altruistic. We'd like to see those people shopping in the shopping center. COREY: Excellent. Thank you. And I'm trying to think if we have wrapped parking in another location in Fountain Hills. I know we parking underneath buildings, but this might be our first. MORRIS: Mr. Chair, Commissioner, I believe it is. It's extraordinarily expensive parking solution, but also results in the best look overall. Podiums can be great, but oftentimes you find yourself short of parking, or you're going so far subterranean that you do a mix of both podium and then surface parking. This is truly an enclosed solution. COREY: So on that note you mentioned that you mirrored this after another property in waterfront Scottsdale? MORRIS: I believe the word we chose to use, and we try and repeat as often as possible, is that it was inspired by -- COREY: Inspired, okay. MORRIS: -- an existing project, to keep us clean. But in this instance, yes, it -- a lot of the design cues were taken from the waterfront project, which is sort of the premier mixed-use project. COREY: So what I'm getting at is does that property have the wrapped parking as well, and has that been successful? MORRIS: The answer to both is yes. They have some subterranean component and then it's -- yeah, they've got a wrap. And it's been -- it is in fact, on a per-door basis, the most successful in the state its last sale. COREY: Okay. MORRIS: And we've also -- you haven't asked, but I will add on. We built these to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 36 of 97 condominium standards with the idea that we want to make sure that this is not a temporary structure. This is built to last and it is built for, hopefully, many generations of use. COREY: Okay. Thank you, Jason. MORRIS: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Yes, thank you, Mr. Morris, for being through with this presentation. You answered most of my questions that I had written down here. But I want to go back to Chairman Gray's concerns -- initial concerns about life safety -- or fire safety with our limited fire department. As you were doing your due diligence, did you consult with the Fire Department to see what their concerns were -- are about the -- about life safety? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, Commissioner Dapaah, thank you. I had forgotten to mention that. But yes, I confirmed before I stood up that we had submitted our plans as part of the application process so that the Fire Department has an opportunity to review them. But beyond that we've also had individualized conversations to make sure our construction methods and what the Town anticipates conforms with what you already have. We would not move forward with this application if that were the issue, because even outside of the Town's concerns about the cost of new apparatus, which won't be necessary, the cost to the building owner for fire insurance would be astronomical if that hadn't been fire rated with the Town. DAPAAH: Okay. Now, thank you. Thank you for that. Now, regarding that open lot, I noticed in your designs here that it is pushed back close to the wash there, to the drainage, or the watershed system that we have in place. Are there any plans for any overflow now that it's going to be poured concrete or blacktop? Are there any concerns there with that? MORRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Commissioner. Yes, there always are. When you're taking area and you're adding additional volume, that is typically the case with vacant or desert land. In this instance, however, this is already an area that's not permeable. You're creating some additional roof volume, but you're not taking ground area that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 37 of 97 would otherwise absorb that and turning it into concrete. Essentially, the areas that were developed are already impermeable surfaces. That being said, we're doing an individualized assessment to make sure all of our -- and we're required by the Town -- to make sure that we're retaining all of the drainage on our site -- any of the drainage of that we need to. And then any of the flow through the site isn't going to be changed or altered in a way that's detrimental to anyone downstream. So we do have a fairly lengthy engineering report just on that topic. DAPAAH: All right. Well, thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Morris. I just have a couple of questions, and I was surprised to see that only three residents attended each meeting; is that correct? With the packet only three at each meeting? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, Commissioner, it was more than three because there were couples involved, but it was fairly consistent with each meeting, because frankly after the first meeting there were questions that we wanted to have answered. Most of the questions -- because the majority of the residents that we spoke to were residents who were on -- immediately adjacent to Shea Boulevard. So it -- DEMPSTER: So Trevino? MORRIS: It's Trevino, and one resident from Monterey. Because of that we had a follow-up meeting because those residents really had the three concerns, not surprisingly, that I talked about: how does this impact their view from their homes to the mountains that they're typical -- typically able to see already over the existing shopping center -- DEMPSTER: Uh-huh. MORRIS: -- what were the sight lines from these units into -- across a -- sort of 580 feet away, across Shea and across the existing property to make sure that wasn't going to be a privacy concern; and then the traffic, where is the traffic flow, what do we anticipate. Because of the low turnout, and at the suggestion of one of the Council members, we TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 38 of 97 actually reached out to the property owners' association that also has some architectural control. I'm forgetting the acronym, so forgive me. You're probably familiar -- DEMPSTER: The NPOA? MORRIS: Yes. Thank you. So that they could share the application -- or the notice of the application with their residents because they have a much larger reach. But, you know, it's not surprising, given the impact that we have, the relatively limited impact we have from this site, that the residents we would hear from are the ones closest -- across Shea. I know you've had an application recently that had far more interest, but frankly that had far more impact. So we believe that sort of the interest in this case is probably commensurate with the impact that we're having. I'd also note, peculiarly, we had the good fortune to be at Town Hall Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday of last week, and we were checking regularly about any neighborhood notice, any input from the neighborhood. And at the time there were maybe two or three notices as late as last week. And I believe all -- and I could be corrected, but I'm fairly certain all of the 15 additional comments came in today between 1 and 3, something to that effect. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. MORRIS: And they're very similar. DEMPSTER: Looking at the renderings, it was hard to tell. Do each of the apartments have outdoor living space? MORRIS: Thank you, Mr. Chair, Commissioner. Yes, they do. DEMPSTER: Okay. Because that's really important here with our -- MORRIS: (Indiscernible). DEMPSTER: -- climate. And you kept -- you said a few times that you do not expect a 100 percent occupancy, so what do you expect for occupancy? MORRIS: Commissioner and Mr. Chair, we'd be very fortunate to stay consistently in the 90s. And I think any property owner would be happy with that sort of occupancy, because it allows, obviously, a return, but it's also not bursting at the seams. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 39 of 97 DEMPSTER: And then how do you come up with the size of the property and the number of units and the height and everything? You know, can you briefly just explain how you come up with, you know, the size of the building and the number of units? MORRIS: Mr. Chair and Commissioner, that is such an interesting question. And I don't know that I've ever been asked that. DEMPSTER: Okay. Well -- MORRIS: And I can tell -- I'll give you from my -- DEMPSTER: I could give you -- MORRIS: -- perspective. DEMPSTER: -- context of why asking. MORRIS: Please. DEMPSTER: I'm -- okay. MORRIS: Because otherwise I'm going to talk for 20 minutes about how I feel. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. I'm asking because, you know, with looking around at the rest of Fountain Hills, the scale to what we have existing -- you know, Four Peaks across from Safeway the apartment complex -- half condominium, half rentals -- that's 212 units. They're spread out. It's a very large community. Park Place, you know, the buildings -- they're massive; they're on the avenue. But this is so much bigger, so I'm just -- the scale compared to what we already have, I'm just curious about that. MORRIS: I appreciate the question, and I can you talk you about a few different rationale for where we are and why we are where we are. First of all, this isn't the village context. It's not the Ave. And the site context is a little bit different for that area. This is an area between the arterial and an industrial use to our -- immediately to our south. It's also a depressed site. So we have the benefit, as I said, of almost -- somewhere between 8 at the lowest and 14 at the highest -- feet of grade differential from the road -- just from the roadway. You know, as you go up to Monterey, it's significantly higher than that in terms of elevation change. And there's also -- one of the unique aspects of this site, it's also surrounded -- as you go TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 40 of 97 to the other side of Technology, that starts just to creep up as well. So we're below all of those datapoints, which means that despite the fact that we are a roofline of 51 feet, four stories with a parapet on top of that, as we look at the context -- and one of the photos that I was anxious to share with you was the context of the entire shopping center, because you ask where did this come from. It comes from the site context, and I'm sure our architectural team would be able to be much more eloquent about this. But as you look at the rest of the shopping center, noting that you've got a different -- a residential use instead of a commercial use, but you see that you're adjacent, literally right next door to a 42- to 45-foot building, having a 51-foot residential building in context to that, especially because of where we sit in reference to the streets system, it works. It's not overbuilding. And just to give you a plane of reference, this type of construction, which is essentially concrete and stick, can go up to 72 feet, 78 feet depending on the context and the development. And what we're doing in the Curlin (ph.) area, for example -- or I referenced a case at Thunderbird and Scottsdale Road -- DEMPSTER: Uh-huh. MORRIS: --which very similar to this is a dying shopping center that installed a church in order to keep the space active. But frankly that church isn't a great tenant mix with retail be as they tend to get busy at the same time, and some of the tenants are very unhappy on Sundays and -- because their parking spaces are being taken. So that site goes up to just under 80 feet overall, and it steps back. So it's not a matter of maxing this out. And I'm not saying that that's what we're being asked. But we could have placed more units here, but we thought the context of the site worked with that area and the heights of the building adjacent to us. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. MORRIS: Thank you. GRAY: I've got a -- okay, I've got a couple. One, I'm surprised Commissioner Dapaah missed a question about mechanical screening and rooftops. One of the gaps in our zoning is ironically we failed to take into account the elevation changes that this Town is TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 41 of 97 kind of inherently blessed with. And I realized that, I think, under C-2 Farhad will tell me that there are actually are not screening requirements for mechanical apparatus of any type. I know there's parapets here, but is the intent to screen those such that those adjacent residences are not going to see condensing units racked out at the rooftops? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, precisely. It is a system -- and I'd like to give some credit to the neighbors, even though I kept feeling we may hear from some. The idea of screening that entirely and taking those viewpoints from both Montrey and from -- DEMPSTER: Trevino. MORRIS: -- Trevino -- thank you -- both Trevino and Monterey was precisely because of that question. The idea was they want to make sure that they're not going to be looking at HVAC units, and not seeing mechanical from across the street from their sight lines. So that is -- that -- the nature of our request for the additional four feet of parapet wall was to ensure that that doesn't occur. GRAY: Okay. Second question is the parking is obviously a sticking point in Fountain Hills, and our tables were just revised in consideration of limited rideshare opportunities, you know, limited public transportation, et cetera. Is there a negotiated, either preliminary or final, overflow agreement with the Target parcel or ownership there? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, because there's common ownership we actually have access to areas outside of our 6.7-acre parcel that we're referring today. So when I refer to a shopping center with hundreds of spaces, Target is guaranteed a certain a number of those, but that's not every other space. GRAY: Okay. And then all of our density calcs, they're all within the boundary limits of this PUD, right? We're not bridging PUDs or PADs? MORRIS: You know, Mr. Chair, I'm so glad you referenced that because I meant to answer that in reference to Commissioner's question. Because it is not actually double that number. I believe in -- and I've got back-up from Stephanie (ph.) -- but the number of units that we could put on this property under the existing PAD, I want to say, was TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 42 of 97 about 224. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). MORRIS: Yeah. And so it's the difference between that 316. So it's not a true doubling of density. It is an increase over the base R-5 density. And one of the things we haven't done here to remain true to the application, that we typically do in every other instance when we're creating mixed use, is we get credit for the entire shopping center. So the numbers you're seeing are obviously based on the 6.7-acre parcel, but in almost every instance when done this, whether it's Papago Plaza, Thunderbird Square, all of those incorporated the density based on the overall -- (indiscernible) it becomes one really one mixed-use project. But we have put ourselves in the most conservative density category, and your staff has reviewed us just on density for that one parcel. GRAY: Okay. I appreciate that. MORRIS: That was a much longer answer than yes or no. GRAY: I appreciate the clarification. My most interesting question, though, is when I look at the Kimley-Horn drawings and I look at the landscape plan -- or it translates to the colored renders. When you look at the way that the parking drive aisles are laid out, everything comes to an abrupt stop, and that makes me think there's a master plan for the overall development of both parcels in concert. Is that fact, fiction, or somewhere in between that there's a -- that there is a master development plan that then, you know, is a more macro view of this in a what-if scenario? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, I said this is years and years of planning. And they've obviously gone forward with a major investment in this application in order to impact the rest of the shopping center. Somebody who just owned that 6.7 acres wouldn't be going to the extent that this property owner is because they own the rest of the shopping center other than the Target building. So when you say is there a master plan, I think everything was done with an eye toward how it would work together, with the understanding that if we're successful with this application it, is a part of that that the rest of the shopping center would get TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 43 of 97 improvements so that you didn't have an older version and a newer version side by side, so that they look like they were planned together, constructed together. But I don't think we've discussed or contemplated or planned for massive changes to the circulation or for existing buildings outside of that envelope turning into something other than existing buildings. I think we've contemplated different uses, but not different building locations or a different site plan, if that answers your question. GRAY: So no master development plan that would have an option within it that would show a conversion of residential across the rest of the adjacencies? MORRIS: No. GRAY: No, okay. MORRIS: And I should point out Sandor is a commercial developer in 25 states. This is an adjunct to the success of their commercial. It's not a line of business. It's a necessity for this site. GRAY: And just for clarity, the reason I ask is it looks to me on the eastern limit that there's a match line set up in the drawings, and there's just abrupt stops to the drive aisles, where if this were a development without the intention to extend, it would have some softer edges to it. And then the other thing that jumps out and makes my mind go there is it seems odd to me that the enhanced paving would be for the garbage truck on the eastern limit versus, you know, kind of the promenade and the public spaces out front. But nevertheless -- MORRIS: We're very -- GRAY: -- you answered my question. MORRIS: -- proud of our refuse. GRAY: Okay. MORRIS: And those are details that I think are worth noting, and I was -- I just had whispered in my ear -- GRAY: I -- MORRIS: -- that we do have improvement plans for the rest, just sort of verifying what I was saying. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 44 of 97 But, you know, the Target building is owned separately. So we do have transition and paving plans and match plans that are continuations of those. I think what you're seeing in the abrupt stop is more the confines of our PAD more than the confines of what will actually be created, because there are no additional approvals necessary for some of the things that'll happen off of those match lines. GRAY: Okay. I mean, my underlying -- what I wanted to get to was that the eastern PAD has no intention to be converted to residential? MORRIS: That is correct. GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Easy question. So if -- MORRIS: So you say. WATTS: If everything remains status quo and remain -- retain the R-5, you'd have to take off -- MORRIS: I'm sorry. WATTS: Well, they're C-2 now with the PUD. GRAY: Yeah, C-2. WATTS: Never mind. If we went to the R-5, you could just take off the top floor -- MORRIS: That's right. WATTS: -- but then, I assume, the economics wouldn't work. Would that be a fair assessment? MORRIS: Yes. WATTS: But we would address the development units per acre. Would that you're pushing by that same third -- 30 some percent to get to the PAD? MORRIS: Yeah, and Mr. Chair, Vice Chair, a few different answers to that because I can make an easy question difficult. First, because of the type of development we're talking about, and one of the concerns of the town is ample parking, it no longer becomes a wrap because you'll have a four- level parking structure. Even though you would have less units, you would still need a four-level parking structure to make sure you have ample parking. And you would have TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 45 of 97 a three-story building, so it wouldn't -- parts of the parking structure would peek above the actual units, or you would bring down the parking ratios because the -- a deck of parking doesn't match a deck of units. The other is that the investment that is being made is made on a 6.7-acre site. If you're going to do fewer units, it's probably a different development type. It's probably closer to garden style. If you're going to do something less, which is surface parked and will likely take a bigger footprint than 6.7 units -- or 6.7 acres. So there are a few different considerations that would go into that. But as you said, this is a C-2 parcel anyway. We don't -- we don't have that benefit. WATTS: Is there any parking that's going to be below grade or is it all above grade? MORRIS: I believe the existing structure that's being proposed is partially below grade. WATTS: You know how many feet? MORRIS: I don't. I'm -- if my recollection is correct, it's about a half story. It goes about a half story below grade -- WATTS: Okay. MORRIS: -- at its starting point. WATTS: Thank you. MORRIS: Thank you. GRAY: I think we'll let you take a break. MORRIS: I appreciate it. GRAY: We -- MORRIS: I'm not going anywhere. GRAY: -- of course, we reserve the -- the right to call you back after -- MORRIS: I'll be right here. GRAY: -- citizen comment. MORRIS: Thank you. GRAY: Perfect. All right. Let's go ahead and open up the public comment and participation. WOODWARD: Mr. Chair -- Chairman -- excuse me. We received 15 comment cards TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 46 of 97 stating they were against the project. We have 14 speaker cards. They'll be called in the order they were received. The first speaker will be Alan Skillicorn, and on deck will be Larry Meyers. GRAY: Paula, while they're queuing up here, what were the counts of -- did that include counts of comments introduced by email over the last 48 hours or so? WOODWARD: Yes, Chair. GRAY: Okay. And then, Farhad, could I ask before Councilman Skillicorn speaks, is it -- is it possible to give -- get a hold of Chief Ott while we're going through the public? TAVASSOLI: (Indiscernible). GRAY: All right. Very good. All right. Councilman. SKILLICORN: Well, thank you very much. I'll be brief because there's 14. But I do want to thank you guys for what you do. It is appreciated. And you have a -- you add a tremendous value to the town. So we really appreciate your time. You know, I'm just concerned about traffic. I'm concerned about views, and I'm really concerned about the lack of open space. So I would ask that this go back to the drawing boards. Thank you very much. GRAY: Thank you, Councilman. Paula, Mr. Meyers did request an additional minute in advance. We'll give him four minutes on the clock. MEYERS: I'll take an extra ten after an hour and a half of sales pitch. Chair, Commissioners, if you read my lengthy email, you know where I stand on the rezone. I'm a definite thumbs-down to the use. You also know a few of the reasons of which none have to do with the details because it looks like a fine project to me, aesthetically -- parking, aesthetic, setbacks, traffic, height, et cetera. What I would request is the same thing I requested 20 years ago on that piece of land when it was once vacant, that we do some math and we debate the big picture as TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 47 of 97 opposed to wondering how many parking spaces there's going to be and whether the Sander can make a lot of money off of the project, or those types of things. Is the use of this land in this use the best long-term use for all aspects of what the town wishes to be? Would not the original use of this land, which was zoned as the master planned community that it was intended to be, be a better use of the land? Instead of what we did do 20 years ago, turn it into a failing strip center? That's what we did. And the math was right there in front of folks just like you, and our counsel and our mayor and our chamber and everybody else, and they didn't look at the math. So what I would ask is don't pay lip service to the use of the land while debating the aesthetics, or whatever, of this particular use, like it's some foregone conclusion that this should be there. But instead of having little minds, have big minds; not short-term fixes for a failed strip center, long-term vision for a really vibrant town added to the great features the town already possesses. And I would like you to ponder where we'd be today had small minds not prevailed in the year 2000. What if we had sought an anchor corporate entity, such as they did down in McCormick Ranch, for that land back then? We wouldn't have this shopping center that doesn't work, because it was mathematically never going to work. Some of the same people that are here today said so back then, and nobody listened. By now, things would be quite different. Fountain Hills demographics would be more diverse. They'd be younger. Fountain Hills would have a larger employer than the school. That would be a good thing. And the school enrollment would probably be stable instead of declining. Businesses would have more full-time residents frequenting the businesses instead of the ever-expanding part-time population that we have today. And best of all, for me, this debate doesn't exist. Before you dismiss those of us who think big while others think small, may I read you some excerpts from a December 5th press release -- yes, this December 5th, okay? Quote, ASM is investing 300 million euros over a period of up to five years to design and construct a new state of the art site on more than 20 acres in Scottsdale, Arizona. ASM will be locating over 1000 high-paying technology jobs to our city, unquote, said David TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 48 of 97 D. Ortega, mayor of Scottsdale. So before you say it can't be done, it is being done on 20 acres, not 40 acres. Done in a place not nearly as great as Fountain Hills. Think about the impact of 1,000 high paying jobs as opposed to 300 apartments. Think about the impact on the businesses, the schools, and the new opportunities. Granted, it will -- granted, it will require larger minds and certainly harder work than is currently being exhibited, over time -- and I'm talking 20 years -- by mayors, counsels, chamber, economic development directors, town service employees, and all of the like. GRAY: Mr. Meyers, you got to wrap up, please. MEYERS: Okay. For tonight, I'd like you to step back and debate the big picture. Leave the details for a later date if the majority of you decide to go small. But while pondering this, remember, developers don't get to tell us what we should be. We tell them what we want to be. Thank you. WOODWARD: Next speaker is Mr. Yazzetta. On deck will be Jane Bell. YAZZETTA: Good evening, Chair, Commissioners. Geoff Yazzetta, Fountain Hills resident and also a renter. I usually watch on YouTube, but I thought this was important enough to speak this evening, so here I am. I am in support of this project because mixed-use developments such as this create a much-needed symbiotic relationship between residents and businesses. Every vacant storefront at this plaza and throughout the town of Fountain Hills represents potential tax revenue. The additional housing provided by this project will support existing businesses and attract new ones, which will ultimately benefit the entire town. I believe the average age of Fountain Hills residents is 58. We are a community skewed towards retirees. So I'd like to share with you a younger perspective that I feel is often overlooked here in town. Now, I cannot speak for all the millennials, but I feel that it is important to share that this type of housing that this development will provide is highly sought after by young professionals of my generation. We look for apartments in good areas that feature amenities and have convenient shopping and dining options. Additionally, the location TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 49 of 97 on Shea Boulevard allows quick access to Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, so you can get the experience in a big city without having to live in it. Let's see here. I'll conclude by saying that it is necessary for every community to have a diverse array of housing options and that smart growth and development is essential in building a more robust business community while also preserving our unique small- town atmosphere here in Fountain Hills. I highly encourage this commission to support this proposal. Thank you for your time. GRAY: Thank you. BELL: Chairperson and Commissioners, I stood here 20 years ago with Larry. Now I'm a little bit older and I hope wiser. But nobody listened. We gave them the facts. We gave them the books, all the information for it, and it was ignored. Now we have this. We need to watch that this isn't going to cost Fountain Hills money, from the sewer to the water, to the fire, and the rest. So the sewer can go now, but what does that got to cause us to do in the future then, with this many apartments? I think you've got to really stop and look at the cost estimate for this building for Fountain Hills for the future. Our roads, their water, everything needs to be looked at. Now, you -- let's talk about the cost of these apartments. Phoenix -- it'll take over two years to even build out and to rent those. It's a long time. Your rent, the person has to have three times that amount to qualify for an apartment. So you're looking at 65,000 and 70,000 to get people in there. What's going to happen if we don't get that kind of a salary and that amount for that apartment? What's going to happen to it? Are we going to be back here? And we've got a Blythe (ph.). I think it's all those things that need to be taken into -- And there's another thing. You have a lot of people here tonight, but you really got to realize that Laurie Scher (ph.) and her husband walked so that all these people would have this information. I live on Monterey. I never knew there was any meeting about this at all. But it's people like that that get the attention and get everybody educated. Thanks. GRAY: Thank you, Ms. Bell. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 50 of 97 WOODWARD: Next speaker is Liz Gildersleeve and Jim Spence. GILDERSLEEVE: Good evening, Commissioners. Thank you all, also, for your great questions following the presentation. I really appreciated a lot of your questions. But it seems to me that it would be prudent to slow the decision on this rezone request as it's the last commercial space of its size, at least in Fountain Hills. Perhaps ask yourselves whether small apartments will attract the, quote, young families to Fountain Hills that the town claims to want. I think it's worth finding out whether our town economic director has done any recent work in trying to attract a major business or manufacturer to this property, something like an Amazon distribution center or a medical supply manufacturer. In my opinion, that might be a better use of this property and could attract more of those young families and young professionals that everyone claims to want versus filling this space with yet another apartment building. So I would just caution this commission to slow the rezone decision on this until all options have been thoroughly researched. Perhaps schedule another update from the town economic director for a future meeting, for starters. Find out what she's done, what she's tried to do, or what she's planning to do. This property has sat vacant for years. What's another few months to make sure you're making the best decision for the future of Fountain Hills? Thank you. GRAY: Thank you. SPENCE: Mr. Chair, Commissioners, thank you very much for hosting this party. I would like to address several things, but I didn't have the -- I didn't see the -- the presentations that were going to be here prior. So I have, you know, very little information that I could go back to on this. But I did have a couple of questions. The parking issue -- I'm kind of at a loss, particularly with the traffic situation, how you can add -- now, if we go with the 90 percent rate of, you know, occupancy and if you go with maybe one and a half cars per, you're -- you're still looking at 500 cars. How does that equate to a reduction in traffic? I don't know. Greater minds would have to figure that one out for me. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 51 of 97 But I will tell you that I moved here. I purchased my home here. My wife and I have made our lives here with retirement in mind. And my home is the one that they used for their line of sight. And I have many more issues than just line of sight; it's quality of living. I don't want to put up with Scottsdale. I don't want to see Fountain Hills become Scottsdale. I don't champion that kind of development out here. I don't think most of the residents do. The issues that I have with this particular build, every one of those that -- I love the outside living space. You know, that's a wonderful concept. But to me that's a balcony. And that balcony looks directly into my swimming pool and my spa. Now we're kind of, like -- I don't want peeping toms. I don't want people being able to look at my grandchildren. I don't want people being able to look at my -- my children, or my wife and myself when we're out there trying to enjoy the view that we have. The view that we have will be detrimentally impacted by this. The parapets that they're talking about to hide the air conditioning stuff, we're still going to be able to look down on that. That -- that doesn't really concern me as much as the height itself because that takes away a view of the mountain to the right, in my perspective. And when we bought this home, my real estate agent took a look around, and he said, that is your million-dollar view. And I agreed with him. That million-dollar view is going to be adversely impacted, and the value of my home is going to go down, relative to -- to other -- other sites. And the fact that the rest of the Fountain Hills community is not really aware of what's going on here, they're really not going to care all that much because they don't drive by it. If this development were to take place down at Fountain Hills Boulevard and Shea, you'd have a whole bunch of people sitting here waiting for a chance to talk. So yeah, it's -- those of us who live in this area are the ones that are impacted. And I would ask that the commission take into consideration our concerns, privacy, our concerns of increased traffic. I loved the increase -- sorry, the safety issues for fire. And that would also include ambulance and -- and so on and so forth, not to mention police. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 52 of 97 You know, they're going to have to have access as well. So with all of these things being taken into consideration, please don't forget the individuals that moved here for a reason, that live here for a reason, that support this town for a reason. Because it's kind of on its way out, the perspective that we had when we bought. So thank you. Thank you for your time, and appreciate your consideration. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Spence. WOODWARD: Next speaker is Nancy Ordowski. On deck will be John Gilbert. ORDOWSKI: Good evening, and thank you for making this time available to us. My name is Nancy Ordowski. I've been a resident for 25 years here in Fountain Hills. I see this area up there at the Target center as a business area, and I've been attending council meetings off and on for 20 years. And I remember a lot of different conversations about businesses that were talking about coming to Fountain Hills. And there was never the space. Why wasn't this space used then? Councils, planning and zoning -- lots of decisions have been made in the past that have put us in this predicament right now. I'd rather see a two-story, functional, manufacturing area or any other type of tech business, something like that. There's lots of different opportunities, but we've never made that space available. And I appreciate the fact that there is an owner that bought that land and tried to do something with it. But I didn't -- I don't think we've worked well with helping to make it be the best it could be. People travel for their jobs. People in Fountain Hills drive to Scottsdale, to Mesa, to Tempe, all over the valley, and people would drive here to do their job -- for a job, just in the same way. I found it interesting to hear that the residents' review was in June and September, when a lot of residents aren't even here to be able to participate. I thought that was a real interesting tidbit. And oh, my goodness, did I hear electric charging stations? Oh. Let's talk more about that. I wouldn't want to live there and be in the middle of the complex to look over that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 53 of 97 wrapped-around parking area. Do you think that that would be really one of the incentives to choose that particular apartment? And just in case people aren't doing the math, there's 76 less parking spaces, and all the conversation's been in the numbers of 60. And then real quick like, on the signage issue, last council member -- or last council meeting, they voted down the opportunity for two businesses whose request was put in a day late due to a medical emergency of an employee. We don't need a huge Target LD3 lighting sign up there. Maybe Target needs to refresh their signage, but we don't need that, so please don't consider it. Thank you for your time. GRAY: Thank you. GILBERT: Commissioners and chairperson, thank you. I'll be brief. My name is John Gilbert. I'm with Radix Law. I'm here representing John Head (ph.) and his companies: Coral Cactus LLC, Adobe Storage LLC, and Prevco Subsea LLC, which is -- which are situated directly across the street at 10000 North Technology Drive, right across the street just south of the -- the vacant lot. Mr. Head's concerns it has to do with parking to a certain extent, because being there, if there's not enough parking in the project's parking lot, they may be on the street; they may be in his parking lot also. His concern also has to do with traffic. Of course, there's going to be increased traffic up and down Technology Drive. But his primary concern -- and he had written a letter, I think, to Farhad, and -- and -- his -- his primary concern had to do with the safety of the children. There's going to be children living there. There's -- it's right on Technology Drive, which leads to an industrial park. There's going to be trucks up and down, and there's no playground in the -- in the complex. There's nowhere for the kids to be other than out on the street. That was his concern. It was -- it was -- it was safety -- safety of the children. And thank you. GRAY: Thank you. WOODWARD: The next speaker was Crystal Cavanaugh. She had to leave, but she wanted to mention that, quote, do not rush to rezone for apartments. Corporate entity TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 54 of 97 would be preferable. The next speaker is Sherry Spence (ph.) and then Pamela Curtis. UNIDENTIFED SPEAKER: No. (Indiscernible) won't be speaking. WOODWARD: Oh, it isn't? Okay. Okay. UNIDENTIFED SPEAKER: My husband (indiscernible). WOODWARD: I beg your pardon. Okay. So we have Pamela Curtis, please, and then Joann Lyles. CURTIS: Okay. So hello, Commission. I don't know how to address you as I haven't been here since 20 years ago, and I was hoping never to have to be here again. And when I was here 20 years ago, there were a whole bunch of us because that whole shopping center, they took into consideration Monterey and Birkemoe (ph.). They took into consideration all of the surrounding area -- Firerock, everything. The reason I wasn't at this first little meeting that they had, where only three showed up, is because I was out of town and I got in the letter, like, three days before the meeting. I was there in September. I was one of two in that room. And again, it's because people were not aware. I have lived here -- been here for over 29 years, came with a 21-month-year-old (sic). There were no apartments, none -- I couldn't believe it -- in Fountain Hills at that time. Since then, a lot have been built, but has done nothing to improve the stores and the commercial entities here, regardless of how many have been built, including Park Place, which is not even completed yet. Where am I going with this? I have no idea. So, in fact, a lot of commercial buildings left. That long standing Gridley store, which was a great store. We couldn't even keep a Dairy Queen across from the fountain. We couldn't keep a Baskin-Robbins. Taco Bell went out. The things that did move into this shopping center, which we fought 20 years ago, have left because there's nobody shopping there and there's nobody working there. You don't have people living here that want to be paid $15 to $20 an hour. This -- also at that time, my kids were in the schools, and we built middle school. Nice TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 55 of 97 middle school. Went there for Parks and Rec basketball, my kids played. I understand that has since closed because we don't have the children here to be in the schools. We know that Four Peaks did as well. And I've also heard there might be apartments considered for that area, which would be awful, too, because it's so nice there with all of the playgrounds and everything. But anyway, this saying they only have 15 three-bedroom apartments, that's not conducive for families. That's not going to increase our people at the schools, our attendance. Okay. So we did tell you years ago that we did need a corporate headquarters here with high paying jobs as opposed to that shopping center, which we knew would fail and did fail. And it's not just the fire department that would be -- have more stress on them with this 316, but the police would as well. The 300-plus cars on Shea is a big deal. I work in Scottsdale. Shea is a three -- three-lane highway, either putt-putting or they're zooming in and out at 80. And when there's an accident on Shea, you're stuck for two hours. You can't get back home. And you're going to add more there? And also -- for -- when we moved here, we were told it was like a dark sky. There are no traffic lights; there are no street signs, anything like that. But with the shopping center, the streetlights came in; the big signs came in. So -- so much for dark sky over there. And I have more, but my time's up. Thanks. GRAY: Thank you. WOODWARD: Betsy La Voie. Oh, I'm sorry. Joann -- Joann Lyles. Yep. Joann, step up, and then Betsy La Voie on deck. Thank you. LYLES: Thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to address you today. I appreciate what we're talking about. These are huge issues for me and pretty much everyone I know in my circle. Basically, I don't understand the need for a development that is so contrary to the nature of Fountain Hills. This is a small town. It's loved as a small town, and we're introducing a huge, huge urban development right in the middle of it. I know we've talked about already built issues, parking spaces, setbacks, landscaping, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 56 of 97 and building heights. I live in a multifamily unit development. It's been sold and resold so many times we don't even remember what to call it. It's still being billed as a luxury apartment community. The truth is that it's practically impossible to maintain the luxury moniker for 80-plus or more units over decades. They deteriorate, and it becomes very difficult to keep them up. And as they deteriorate, you attract a different kind of demographic. I'm concerned that 315 units -- we're talking about, not 315 people; we're talking about 700 plus people at minimum. One single precinct is going to have an influx of 700 people. They're going to double the nature of that whole community very quickly. Now, I also have experience with the Havenly luxury single family home development, which is now Pillar. Unfortunately, it's a poster child of poor construction and project delays. I think we are looking at the same thing with any other huge complex like that. The scale of Park Place at Four Peaks -- I mean, Four Peaks -- at The Village at Four Peaks -- and it really is -- would be a village. The scale is disruptive, in my view. We'll have 700 new residents in one precinct, as I just mentioned. But the lifestyle would be similar to City North (ph.) and Paradise Valley reimagined, which I think I saw a name up there -- a slide up there with that -- is reminiscent of the 15-minute city. Obviously, the whole walkability concept is strong here. And these aren't -- these aren't compatible with what I know Fountain Hills to be. This a whole different mindset that comes with the 315-unit complex. It's not small town. Occupants of the proposed development are not going to fill service jobs. Let's just be clear about that. That's not going to happen. We've seen it. It doesn't happen. We have a different issue with job occupancy right now. And it doesn't have to do with the term we use, diversity in housing units. I'm not even sure that really is a term. We use diversity for a lot of things, plant life and people, and housing is just another labored use of the term diversity. People need places to live. There are single family homes, there are apartments, and that's it. I'd rather see this space used to encourage families to move in. I embrace open space wholeheartedly, and I respect the nature. I prefer to see a development that respects TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 57 of 97 the nature of a small town, not one that tries to morph the nature of a small town. Thank you. GRAY: Ms. Joann, can I ask you, so, in your opinion, is -- is the is the location of the development -- are you amenable to the location of the development catered to a more family-like, more open space type of demographic? Is that -- LYLES: Yeah -- GRAY: -- is that woven in there? LYLES: -- I think we're talking about right now -- with this development, we're looking at a development that is supposedly catering to singles, professional singles, whereas Fountain Hills, as a small town, we -- we use the term vitality and revitalize and viability. Life comes from family life. And that's a different nature when you talk about a whole complex, a development like this one, over 700 people, I'm certain, if even if they're not even full, there's hundreds of people living there that have nothing to do. And I think the comment about the playgrounds was an issue, too. We have enough dog parks in Fountain Hills. We don't need more. We need more families and things that attract family life. Where this is located right now, that's probably not the best place for a community of small families or growing families. So my concern would be the type of development, one, and what the development intends to attract, what would be my second concern. GRAY: Okay. Thank you. LA VOIE: Good evening, Chair, Vice Chair, Commissioners, and staff. I'm Betsy La Voie, Fountain Hills resident since 1978 and CEO and president of the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce. The Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce has almost 1000 members, and we have over a 15-member board of directors. As a -- as the largest nonprofit civic organization for business and commerce in town, of course, we agree with Lynn (sic) Gildersleeve and -- Liz Gildersleeve -- sorry, and Larry Meyers, that a larger Amazon corporate would be fabulous. But where would they live? Do you know that right now, today, we have two single-family homes under $500,000 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 58 of 97 for sale. Two. Where would they live? When they mentioned that we need housing, we desperately need housing. So where would any commerce that Amanda attracts, which I know she's been working diligently to do -- where would they live? This is what this solves. I am here to share with you that, yes, the board of directors has endorsed this project. And we are -- we do have a letter of support for this project. You might not know what that letter of support process looks like, so I invite you to go to fhchamber.com and look at the letter of support process so you can get to know a little bit more about that. Our board directors are elected by our business community once a year, and they represent that business community, kind of like a town council represents our community, and they make decisions for that business community. The developers did come and follow the entire letter of support process. And if I may, I do have a copy for each one of you, but I'm going to read it really quick. "On behalf of the board of directors, I'm writing to express my wholehearted support for the revitalization and development project at the Four Peaks Plaza. I strongly encourage you to consider the many benefits that it would bring to our community. One aspect of this project that stands out as a particularly thoughtful and considerate is its careful attention to the line of sight for the closest residential areas." If I may, on a side note, I personally live walking distance from Target, so I personally, as a longtime resident, can share with you that I'm in support as well. "It is evident that the project designers have gone to great lengths to ensure that the development does not restrict the views of the residents. This shows a commendable level of respect for the existing community and the preservation of the natural beauty that surrounds us." Mt. McDowell is my favorite mountain. Most of people call it Red Mountain or Red Rock. And it does not block that at all. That was my first concern. "Furthermore, the project's commitment to providing less traffic at full capacity residential than the current full capacity commercial use is admirable. This demonstrates the commitment to minimizing disruptions to the community and aligns TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 59 of 97 with the vision of a more harmonious, less congested town. The decision to limit the development to only four stories tall is another praiseworthy element of this project. In a time when many redevelopment projects tend to reach heights of 6 to 11 stories, especially along major thoroughfares like Shea Boulevard, this project exhibits a commendable sense of scale that is in line with our town's character and aesthetics. The support of the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors for this project is significant. Their endorsement emphasizes the positive impact it will have on our local economy and business community. The revitalization of the shopping plaza is likely to attract new businesses and provide additional residential opportunities for our workforce, which will undoubtedly contribute to the continued growth and success of our overall town. In addition to the residential development, the approval of appropriate signage is a critical aspect that should not be overlooked. Ensuring the visibility and recognition of the Plaza is vital for its success, and I encourage you to take this into account during your decision-making process. In conclusion, I urge you to consider this project as an example of smart, controlled residential growth that our town needs. With the full support of the board directors of the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce, I hope that you will see the immense value that this project holds for our community and grant it the necessary approvals to move forward. Thank you for your time and consideration. Your support of this project will undoubtedly contribute to the continued growth and prosperity of our town." I do also have a copy of the general plan, to which many of the goals that are featured in the general plan are defined and I know were briefly covered. I can share with you that in the general plan, it states "Housing to meet the needs of current and future residents of Fountain Hills". We actually are not doing that now. This is your opportunity to allow that for future. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you. WOODWARD: Next speaker is Matthew Corrigan. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 60 of 97 CORRIGAN: Mine was actually a written request. WOODWARD: Oh, I beg your pardon. CORRIGAN: But -- GRAY: You're welcome to speak or -- CORRIGAN: Well, I just have a -- the concerns that are shared by the -- by the commission, and generally it's the same that have been stated many times here on the dais by members of the community, and that is that it is a burden on the fire department, police, and also the infrastructure in terms of traffic. As was pointed out, it's really around 300 to 600 trips per day in spite of what's revealed in the traffic study. The reality is once the project is built up, that site is really not ideal for this type of a project. I've been in -- I've lived in different areas where this type of redevelopment has become prominent. And I'm speaking of California and Oregon, and the results were taking a wonderful, beautiful community and turning it into something, over time, entirely different. Those are my views on that. I'm concerned also, as the staff is, and I'm assuming the Commission, about the number of parking spots that are available. My concern is less about the roofline and more about the height of the 55-foot building. So again, I'm reiterating some of the concerns that have been stated already, and I think my written comments probably bear that out. Thank you for your time and appreciate your no vote on this. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you. WOODWARD: Last two speakers will be Bob Strasser and then Ed Stizza. STRASSER: Good evening, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners. I've been a -- my wife and I have lived in Fountain Hills now -- I think our first property was purchased in 2005. It was a condo, and we now live directly behind the medical clinic, which -- which you had the same type of meetings for that. You know, there's an expression. I'm not sure who came up with it, but do as I say, but don't do as I do. And it's often attached -- that saying is often attached to political TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 61 of 97 parties, both Democrat, Republican, and, I suppose, independent too. And Fountain Hills is no exception to that. The -- the infrastructure of Fountain Hills says that they want affordable housing. And in Fountain Hills, I don't -- I don't see affordable housing, especially when the median price of homes is 660 and there's only two homes that are below $500,000. We don't have affordable housing. I won't -- there's a lot of points that have been covered already. So I'm going to just skip over -- skip over those because they've all -- they've all been said. The -- the need for sales tax revenue is -- is really important. And since we have so many storefronts right now all over the community that are vacant and there's no stores in them, therefore they're not generating sales tax revenue -- I don't necessarily think that putting an apartment building in that location is going to significantly increase our sales tax revenue. I would think that most of the residents that live there are not -- like was said earlier, they're not going to be service workers here in Fountain Hills. They're going to be working in other towns and probably spending their money after -- after work on their way home, and we won't realize the sales tax revenue. I know we have a member of the Chamber of Commerce that just spoke. I -- I think it's great that we have a Chamber of Commerce. Without getting into a long explanation, I was involved with chambers of commerce for 30 years in Illinois, and I really don't see the Chamber bringing in the kind of businesses that we really need. And if they're in favor of this housing development, that's on them. But I don't think that that really -- really provides the kind of town that we want to have to continue to have. So I don't think there's any financial effort. And I guess I'm running out of time. There's no -- no effort to bring in businesses that will change the financial impact of -- and create more revenue for Fountain Hills. And I'll skip the other -- other two, but I'll just end by saying, remember so many times, do as I say, don't do as I do. And 20 years ago, you heard it. 20 years later, you're hearing it again. So thank you. I appreciate it. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Strasser. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 62 of 97 You're up, Mr. Stizza. STIZZA: Good evening, Chair. Good evening, Vice Chair. Good evening, Commissioners. And happy -- and Paula, and staff. So happy holidays to everybody. I hope everything's going well with everyone. So again, we have a discussion that has been quickly brought on to the public without a due diligence of informing the public of exactly what's going on. This is -- now they're going to -- are -- are applicants going to tell you how good this is for Fountain Hills? Well, I've not heard that tonight. And it seems that we need to take a little bit more time here and really dissect every inch of this. And if anybody in this room truly believes that the rest of that parking lot is not going to look like what they're proposing, you might be dead wrong. So think about that. So they can sit here and tell you what they want. But economically, they don't care about Fountain Hills. They care about their project. All developers do. And that's okay. That's their business. But everybody in this room and everybody in this town and everybody up there and everybody on the town council needs to decide once and for all what you want Fountain Hills to be. That's it. Same question was asked 33 years ago when my parents moved here, and I asked the same question 3 years ago. So what do we want to be? Do we want to be -- do we want a massive amount of apartments right at the entrance of our town that we are all going to see? I don't care that they say about sightlines and -- or what they say about sightlines, and I don't care that they think it's going to be -- we can sit here and go over that all day long, okay? But the reality of it is it's going to be there. It is going to be there, and it's going to be an eyesore. I don't care what they say, okay? So it does not blend with our surrounding community. And if you think Target's going to stay here and if you think our Chamber and our economic services director is going to save the town with this project, let's do some real, real numbers. How much -- how much is it really going to add? Because the developmental fees aren't going to add a ton of money. If that was the case, then the Adero Canyon that's been destroyed should have paid for every single aspect of stuff TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 63 of 97 that we need in this town. And I mind you to look at that project as you make a decision on this. So that's another thing. Once you open the door for these people, they are going to take it and they are going to open it further. They don't care about Fountain Hills. Come on. This is a big, big outfit. And granted, they're here on a business trip. We have no lawyers representing the town right now. They have a whole slew of people here. So purposely -- and they're doing it purposely at this time of the year in front of this amount of people. They know what they're doing. So just take all that into consideration and let's extend this conversation, please. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Stizza. Paula, any more speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Let's go ahead and close the public comment session. Farhad, we'll call you back up. I'm just going to jump into a couple of mine. I'm curious on the parking calc. If -- if there's no -- if there's control of the adjacent parcels, why are we trying to over park this parcel and not just extend -- the extend the limits of the PUD to get it in ratio? It -- it seems to me that that could be a calculation that extrapolates on us over time if we were to -- to push this forward tonight. Was that discussed, I guess, is my ultimate question. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, that wasn't discussed at any great length, but my thought would be that, you know, much of the parking provided is for the residents, and it is secured within the -- the wrapped parking structure. So that accounts for most of the parking exclusively for the residents. GRAY: Mm-hmm. So I guess my concern is that, if I understand the access points to the to the parcel beyond vehicular, it seems to reason that the overflow is probably going to land itself on Technology Drive and not make its way into the Target parcel. That's what we'll call it here tonight. So I have a reservation there. And then -- I think Amanda's taken off, but what do we do in the form of an economic TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 64 of 97 impact analysis when this type of rezone comes up? What does that office do? Well, she is still here. What does that office do and what does that -- what does that calc look like as we -- as we weigh the opportunity cost? I thought you walked out. JACOBS: I am still not running. Okay. So Chairperson Gray, this is a great question, and we're in the process of -- of working on. We did reach out to the Greater Phoenix Economic Counsel. That is GPEC. I asked them -- I was pretty sure I knew the answer -- but asked them if they did an economic impact on a mixed use. Unfortunately, they do not. So we need to work with the applicant and then the town, just for the future, look at someone to help us with that modeling and to be consistent with the modeling. So there has not been a full- blown economic impact analysis. You're welcome. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Along the lines of that economic impact, I think I'm going to reiterate once again, for Amanda's sake, that we incorporate the potential disposable income, the type of renters that are anticipated, the middle higher income people that are going to be going to be necessary in order to -- to qualify for the for the rentals, for the rates. And what does it look like? My concern is, and for Farhad is -- I just lost my train of thought completely. Thank you. It'll come back. Give me a second. I hate when this happens. The economic component was a big one, though. Dark sky -- I live a couple of streets over from Trevino. And there's this glow that exists, and it's coming out of that Target facility today. It would seem to me that this particular development would exacerbate that. So is there a way to control it, to contain it, so it isn't a beacon? Because it lights up the whole sky, even over three or four streets. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Watts, the town -- or staff is only equipped to enforce the outdoor lighting ordinance, which requires certain color temperature no TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 65 of 97 greater than 3,000 Kelvin, shielding based on the amount of lumens. The only -- you know, the only thing that doesn't address, I guess, is lighting that comes from within the units. And I'm not sure if that, you know, that is something that can be addressed. (Indiscernible) -- WATTS: I don't think it's so much what comes from in the units as much as the reflection. Because I understand the 3,000 Kelvin and the lumens, and we talked about foot candles at nauseam, but the reflection off of the asphalt itself creates this aura or glow. I don't know what you call it, but it's pretty amazing to see even three, four streets over. So there's got to be a way to mitigate some of that -- is what I would hope for. So I would appreciate looking deeper into that as well. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chair, Commissioner, are you referring to just the -- the glare, regardless of time of day -- WATTS: Yes. TAVASSOLI: -- within -- from the surface -- WATTS: Yes. TAVASSOLI: Okay. WATTS: Yeah. GRAY: Thanks. TAVASSOLI: Yeah. WATTS: You know, primarily in the evening hours when we get the most reflection off of it. I would say that you don't get much in the way of daytime reflection, but some. And again, some of the requirements we've got for rooftop coatings are not white. They're tan in nature to mitigate some of that reflection as well. GRAY: Farhad, you guys got an update from Chief Ott on -- TAVASSOLI: Yes, Mr. Chairman. John has been in communication with Chief Ott. He did confirm that the ladders extend out to 100 feet. And I believe there was one other statement in regards to the fire suppression and sprinkler system, and they are required to be equipped with -- GRAY: Sure. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 66 of 97 TAVASSOLI: -- that apparatus. GRAY: I wanted to also ask you, I notice -- this just for my own education, I guess, but I noticed that the traffic impact study -- and granted, it was it was just the kind of the executive summary, but in that summary it referenced all Scottsdale standards. Is that because we don't have standards to -- to benchmark against? Or why would the Scottsdale standards have been utilized? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, I'm not sure if I can answer that. GRAY: I just wonder that -- is there some strategic value to using Scottsdale? Because I think someone had mentioned trip counts being low, and I think it's probably not impactful one way or another. But I also thought the trip counts for early morning were also low. So I don't know if that's rooted in that Scottsdale standard versus the Fountain Hills modeling or not. Commissionner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Yeah. Chairman Gray, I -- sorry to take a quick step back, but I have one more box to check on my list of reservations. And I think Ms. Betsy La Voie, the lady that's representing the Board of Directors, may be able to answer that (indiscernible). Is she still there? GRAY: No, sir, she is not. DAPAAH: All right. Okay. Yeah. I am interested in learning about -- I know about eight years ago, there were a lot of reservations about Park Place, and I want to know the kind of impact now that Park Place has had on -- on the community, on the Fountain Hills as a whole, or the Avenue. But that's something that I suppose I could leave open and look into later. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioners, any other question for Farhad or the applicant? All in? Good. Mr. Dempster, good? Okay. You guys good? All right. We will close the public hearing in relation to agenda item 5 and final discussion amongst the commission and/or a motion, please. Sure. COREY: So I'll just I just have a few comments, and then I can make a motion if TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 67 of 97 everyone agrees. I've lived here for eight years, since 2016. And from day one, looking, you know, shopping and going to that Target parking lot, I'm thinking, we got to do something here. We have to revitalize this area. So I was excited to hear when the developers came in and had a proposal for us. And thank you all for coming to speak and sharing your thoughts with us. We really do appreciate that. So I think about the compatibility with the surrounding area. You know, we've had quite a few of these projects over the past five years that I've been here, and we've approved some, we have not approved others, you know. And sometimes we have -- well -- very often we have to deal with who's living around the area, how it impacts their views. So I think one thing that's unique to this project is the compatibility with the surrounding area. This is on a main thoroughfare. It's currently mainly a commercial and industrial area. So I think that's something -- a plus that we have with this proposal. You know, I look at traffic and infrastructure, and this does support -- there's direct access right into this development, and that's usually a struggle that we have to deal with, but not in this case. Parking space adequacy is usually something we talk about as well. And I -- this is a very unique design with the -- the wrap-around parking. It's excellent design. I think as we heard today, it was going to be a better experience for the people that live there. So I'm kind of excited about that. Also look at, like, economic impact on local businesses, and I think we heard from economic development today and from a few other folks that the businesses are in support of this. As far as I know, you know, they're probably really struggling right now, and they need to revitalize that area to help them stay in business. The last thing we want to do is lose Target or lose one of the other businesses there. Public services and amenities. We know that we can handle this. We've got to make some changes with the water, but we can handle it. Compliance with zoning and the general plan is also important. So this is promoting mixed use, and that's in our general TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 68 of 97 plan. That would be where it's residential and commercial all within the same area, and that promotes walkability so we have less cars driving. More people can walk to the commercial businesses. And then the long-term vision is the last thing I would look at. So this revitalizes the Shea corridor. It's going to bring in more families. Like we heard earlier, the families are really what we need to bring into town here because they're going to support our other businesses and they're going to help to increase the diversity of the community. Also, this area has been underutilized, and as we heard today also, commercial has changed. So we can try to fix this with other commercial properties, but that's really changed, and not everybody is shopping the way that they used to, so we got to kind of think of things in a new direction here. So for all of those reasons, I really hope that you all will consider that as well. I would like to make a motion that we approve this project and can move forward with this. GRAY: Hold your motion. I'll give you first rights to it. COREY: Okay. GRAY: But I want to hear from other commissioners as we head into that motion. Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: I am fully on board that there is a housing shortage and that Fountain Hills needs more housing. I fully understand. I've been in the real estate business for 40 years. And I understand, with a tough shopping center, you don't have a lot of options. And redevelopment, I wonder what's taking so long. I think the architecture is good. But what I'm really struggling with, Fountain Hills is primarily a bedroom community. The ordinances are on our books for a reason. And while we can all say rules are made to be broken, I just am wrestling with the fact that R-5 zoning calls for 220 units, and we're looking at 316 proposed. I just think it's too much. And I am wrestling with the fact that our ordinance calls for 635 parking spaces and only -- whatever it is -- 561 are being proposed. We're too short. We're not Scottsdale. We're not Phoenix. You can't get an Uber in or out of here after a certain time of night. People are going to be driving in and out, and I struggle to support the project this much on that little space. And I TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 69 of 97 don't think we need -- 300 units is a huge impact, as one of the speakers said. I mean, you bring 700 people and put them onto six acres; is that really what we want Fountain Hills to be? So I'm wrestling with it. And I'm a builder. I like to see things get built, but I think it's a lot. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Thank you, (Indiscernible). I think Commissioner Corey spoke very eloquently, but I think I can challenge each and every one of those scenarios. Every one of them has a deficiency that I think that we ought to afford the opportunity to the town staff, economic development, and more input from the public to explore and come up with answers. I don't think we should jump to conclusions tonight, and I don't think we should move forward approving it because I think it takes more debate amongst the commissioners, amongst the public. I think we need more input. Each of the issues that commissioners have raised are viable, but they also have a counter to them, and I think those are the issues that need to be explored. Rather than rehashing each and every one of them, I think we ought to afford the town the opportunity to explore them and come back with answers. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. So just a few of my thoughts: I am a Relator, and we do absolutely need more housing here, without a doubt. We need more rentals; we need more homes. Our average price is very high, and it's a challenge. We also need to reduce the amount of commercial space we have, and this is a great opportunity. We don't want to lose Target at all. That would be a detriment to our town, so I do think we need to revitalize the Four Peaks Plaza. I love multi-use, multi-property sites. I think that it makes sense. I look at the walkability and such, and I am a fan of that. I'm concerned with two more Park Place buildings approved. That's going to bring in several apartments. I have some dark sky concerns, and we all know it doesn't mean no light -- it means shielded light -- but there's still kind of a glow that comes from large properties and such. But my biggest concern and struggle is with the density. I think it's a very large project, and that's my TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 70 of 97 big struggle. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah, did you have any thoughts you wanted to share with the commission? DAPAAH: Yes. I'm referencing my notes here, Chairman, and about eight years ago, as I was saying earlier, there were a lot of reservations about Park Place. Today you go to Park Place on an evening and you will see a vibrant area with residents enjoying Oka Sushi and all that is going on around there, and I wanted to hear from the chamber to see if they had some data on the impact. I also have my notes about the fire chief response, which was good. I was glad to hear from that. It was good and encouraging to hear from the young speaker. I've checked the boxes about the development itself, and all my questions have been answered about that. I'm not concerned that any of the neighbors will have their views restricted, just looking at the elevation, and then the mechanical system is not going to be something that will be an eyesore since they have parapet walls and all that. So I'm with Corey on this. I am ready to move forward with this. That Target area is dead right now, and we could certainly -- Fountain Hills could certainly use the revitalization of that area. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner Dapaah. And I'll just give kind of my summary of notes here. I kind of -- I kind of split the line between Commissioner Corey's disposition on this, and I also have a lot of the same reservations that the other commissioners have raised. So ultimately, this is all going to lead to -- I'm actually in favor of a short continuance to try and develop this thing a little bit further. But my thoughts in a nutshell are that as you look at this render -- you know, we keep talking about a mixed-use environment, and to me, mixed use is stacking residential on top of commercial, and there's some integration and there's some direct utilization. This, as it's laid out, is residential in isolation from the adjacent commercial. And there happens to be a locked gate off of the residential unit that will let you into the parking lot that could ultimately get you to Target, but there's no pathways. There's no interconnectivity. There's no -- you know, there's no master plan component of this TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 71 of 97 that interlocks those two different entities or components of a mixed use together. So to me, this is purely high density residential in isolation and just happens to be adjacent to. I think that if we're really going to talk about this as mixed use and we're going to throw all those cards on the table, we need to further develop that in concept. I also really think we've got to find a way within staff, you know, reaching out to Amanda and her -- I was going to say team -- to her to really -- is there a team? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). GRAY: You have one, right? JACOBS: There's two of us. GRAY: All right. Reaching out to Amanda to really understand the economic impact analysis of this chess move. I really like the development. I like the architecture of it. I like the -- I like the elevations of it. We get caught up in 55 feet of height, but the reality is those are architectural features that get you to 55 feet. It's not a box that's 55 feet tall. And I do think, you know, when we consider the setbacks off of Shea and, you know, the horizontal difference between the property line and the Shea curb line, I think that the height self- mitigates in this particular location. So I do agree that there's a lot of really good civil and architectural features of this, but I can't get myself off of the density calculation one. I agree. I think that's -- I just think it's too dense. I don't understand the parking deficit and the logic there, as Commissioner Kovacevic has already gone down that path. And I had one more that I wanted to go to. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's contagious. GRAY: It's what? Yeah, it is contagious, isn't it? Well, I think that pretty well -- that pretty well encapsulates it. I had five likes in my like category, and I had nine dislikes as it sits today. That's not to say I'm not in favor of this long term, because I think I probably am if we can mitigate and find some middle ground on some of this stuff, but today, I would be in favor of a continuance as my personal preference. I guess my last note has also kind of been picked up by others, but I do think that, you know, you can find whatever you want to find in our general plan. You can find TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 72 of 97 whatever you want to find in our economic strategy study. I think that if this were to go forward as it is, I think it's a pretty significant nail in Fountain Hill's ever achieving, you know, growth on the back of an anchor opportunity. I think that we forever have committed ourselves to a bedroom community because you only get this opportunity to revitalize, regentrify, redevelop, you know, once every three or four generations here. And so I really think we've got to think that through a little bit more, and I think there's a lot of minds that have to get together on that. So those are my thoughts. Do you have another one? WATTS: Yeah, just a parting. You've given Commissioner Corey the first right of refusal on making a motion. So is this going to be an up-and-down vote on a motion to approve or are you going to move for a -- I guess it's a question for you, Commissioner Corey -- or an up-and-down vote for contingency -- GRAY: Continuance. WATTS: -- or continuance? GRAY: It's your call. You have first rights to the motion. COREY: Okay. Well, I mean, my first vote would be just to make a recommendation on approving this -- make that recommendation to council, but I would support a continuance if we felt that there was a need for more discussion on this. WATTS: I think that goes to an up-and-down vote on support. COREY: Okay. WATTS: I don't think it's any good, so I think I'd be a supporter of continuing. COREY: Okay. That's fair. GRAY: Free will. You can make whatever motion you desire. COREY: Did we have something from the -- MORRIS: Mr. Chair, a couple of things. I actually was expecting an opportunity to have a rebuttal, but if that's not your process here, it may be worth asking the applicant if a continuance -- and I appreciate the comments that were made. I think all of them were made with good faith and the idea of trying to create something that's a benefit to the town. At the same time, we've covered a lot of ground this evening, and I wasn't sure if TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 73 of 97 you were curious as to the applicant's response to any of the comments that were made from the public or any of the lingering questions. But most importantly, I think the continuance is probably a question that should be asked of the applicant because I wouldn't want to put the planning commission in a situation where you believed there was going -- there were going to be significant changes to be made, and if they're not made, that you were disappointed with the applicant. So I just wanted to put that out there as well. GRAY: And typically, if continuance is a motion, we will engage both yourself and staff to determine what the best path is there and get your feedback. MORRIS: Okay. GRAY: So I think the first motion is -- I'm not sure. It's either going to be for a motion to continue or it's going to be a motion to recommend approval. COREY: Well, I really just want to recommend approval, so I will do that because I think that, you know, we've hashed this out quite a bit, and I really want to see us try to make this work. So I will make a recommendation to approve the rezone in the C-2 PUD Zoning District with the Planned Unit Development overlay and the IND-1 to Village at Four Peaks PAD to allow for the development consisting of 316-unit, four-story residential apartment, subject to the following conditions that staff put in the agenda. GRAY: Commissioners, is there a second to Commissioner Corey's motion? DAPAAH: Yes, I will second that motion. GRAY: Okay. And Commissioner Corey, your reservations are limited to staff's recommendations, correct? COREY: Yes. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, a motion has been made to recommend approval of the application to agenda item number 5 as stated and inclusive of the staff recommendations. That motion has been seconded by Commissioner Dapaah. Commissioners, opportunity for any proposed amendments to that motion? If not, we will go to a roll call vote. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 74 of 97 Did you have an amendment? WATTS: No. GRAY: No. Paula, roll call, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Nay. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? GRAY: Nay. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? WATTS: Nay. WOODWARD: 4-2. WATTS: Forgot Dapaah. GRAY: Dapaah seconded the motion, so. WATTS: Okay. WOODWARD: He seconded the motion. WATTS: Thank you. WOODWARD: Yeah. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, an alternate motion? Is that it? WESLEY: So you have a -- you now have a recommendation, basically, for denial to council. So that's going to go forward. GRAY: All right. WATTS: Right. GRAY: Okay. WATTS: Do we even need to go to 6? GRAY: So Farhad, do we move onto agenda item 6 or was it contingent on agenda item 5? TAVASSOLI: I believe we can move forward. Yeah, we can move forward. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 75 of 97 GRAY: Okay. WATTS: Can we take five minutes? GRAY: Farhad, Commission's asking for a five-minute recess, so we'll take a recess. We will reconvene at 9:15. [Recess from 9:10 p.m. until 9:30 a.m.] GRAY: It's 9:30. If you need another water, suffer. All right. Let's go ahead and resume, Farhad. Move onto agenda item 6, public hearing in consideration, possible action to rezone the adjacent 22.5 acres at Shea and Saguaro Blvd. I won't read the rest of it. TAVASSOLI: Okay. GRAY: Let's move into the presentation. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, members of the commission, so this PAD request, the underlying zoning district, currently, is the same as the one property adjacent to it. In the previous case, it's a C-2 PUD and an IND-1 planned residential. Applicant is requesting a planned unit -- I'm sorry; that's an obvious typo -- planned area development for this as well to create a uniform zoning throughout. The location is, as I said, you know, the three quarters of the Four Peaks Plaza. It's about 22.5 acres. I mentioned the rezone request, the Four Peaks Plaza PAD. Now, the sole intent of this PAD is not only to create a uniform zoning throughout the center, because currently it is dual zoned like the previous subject property, but it is to address the signage allowances. And the purpose of this is to -- of this particular PAD is to replace an existing 10-foot-high, 14-foot-wide monument sign with a 20-foot-high and a little over 21.5-feet-wide monument sign at the southeast corner of Shea Boulevard and Center Lane, which is the signaled intersection here at the Target center here at the north -- rather -- I'm sorry -- the southeast corner, and it's also to add a new sign that is proposed to be 12 feet high and 14 feet wide at the driveway, midway between the Center Lane intersection and the Saguaro Boulevard intersection. So I do need to make a point of clarification on the staff report. I described the proposal as the removal and replacement of two signs. That is actually erroneous. It's actually TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 76 of 97 the removal and replacement of one sign, that being the main monument sign at the signaled intersection, and it would be the addition of a monument sign at the driveway about 530 feet east of the signaled intersection. Now, the applicant is allowed, by right, two monument signs per 150 feet of linear feet. What the applicant is requesting with this PAD request is deviations from the sign height and the sign area, and I'll explain that a little bit more later on, and so it's important to note that with approval of this PAD request, all other current standards for the C-2 PUD shall still apply. So the sign that is proposed for removal and replacement is the existing 10-foot-high sign and 14 feet wide with a 20-foot-high sign and a little over 21 feet across. That's the monument sign, as I mentioned, at the southeast corner of Center Lane and Shea Boulevard. What the applicant -- again, as you can see here -- is proposing is, as I mentioned, a 20-foot sign, but it's also a sign area of about 206 square feet. It's worth noting at this point that the applicant has revised their design proposal, their sign elevation to reflect some of the comments that were received at last week's meetings, and so what the applicant has done is proposing to mute the colors that were originally proposed to a white for the minor tenants. The Target logo will be applied as originally proposed. The second sign that the applicant is proposing is, as I mentioned, the driveway that's about 530 feet east of the Center Lane intersection. That will be at the southwest corner. This is actually looking at the eastbound lanes, but it's looking west, and the sign will be located approximately here in this area. The applicant has prepared some more sophisticated simulations that will show a pretty good idea of the line of sight. In this case, the applicant is proposing a 12-foot-high sign and approximately 14 feet across with a sign area of 80 square feet. Deviations from the sign code, first, with sign A. So with regards to monument signs, the base zoning standard for monument signs is a height limitation of 12 feet. The applicant is proposing 20 feet in height. Base zoning standards require no more than 50 square feet of sign area. Applicant is proposing 210 square feet. Sorry, earlier I mentioned 206, but PAD explicitly mentions 210 square feet. With regards to the new TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 77 of 97 sign and the deviations proposed, there is only in regards to the sign area. They're proposing a sign area of 80 square feet. In staff's view we recommend approval of the sign elevations as promised through this PAD request. Approval would address some challenges due to visibility and existing topography. Much of the details of that topography were discussed before, especially with Mr. Morris's one exhibit showing the difference in grade between the parking lot and Shea Boulevard, and also provides a uniform zoning throughout the Four Peaks Plaza area. Applicant has provided stipulations for approval much in the same spirit as the previous stipulations for the previous case. We will await to see more detailed drawings if this does get approved. Applicant does need to apply for an encroachment permit because at least a portion of one of the signs extends into the right-of-way, and our engineering department, who mainly looks at any kind of development within the rights of way, is amenable to that. So should this PAD be approved, we will work out those details with various departments. And this last stipulation is similar to the previous case. The final design will also look at the 15-inch sewer line that's beneath -- I should say the 15-inch sewer line easement that's beneath one of the signs. At this point I'll open up to discussion and questions. GRAY: Farhad, exclusion on any electronic messaging, is that inherent to the language? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, I would say yes. But this being also a PAD, they are held to the standards that they're proposing, which does not include electronic message boards. GRAY: And then also, I don't recall what our new ordinance stipulates, but dimming criteria is -- does the underlying -- is there an underlying requirement to dim an hour -- I think it's an hour before dusk or an hour after dusk? Would that carry -- TAVASSOLI: I'm not sure with regards to this type of monument signage. GRAY: I know it's on the electronic, but with a sign of this size, that big bullseye out there, does that apply -- would that apply there? Seems reasonable that a sign of that size and proportion should be muted beyond a certain hour, right? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 78 of 97 Okay. Commissioner Corey? COREY: Well, I would just say that I agree that if it's going to be that big, we want to make sure that when it gets darker that they somehow automatically would just kind of darken a little bit so you can still see it, but we don't want to be emitting too much light from those signs. And I know that was a concern from some of the residents, too. GRAY: I just had one other -- did it used to be that we measured the signage area from the top of the plinth? Where this is measured from graded, it appears, right? I just want to make sure we're not opening ourselves up to a 30-foot sign. And this appears to be off the grade, but I thought the language in the underlying ordinance stipulates off the plinth. And to me, if I was looking for a way around, I would just extend that brick facade a little further and give myself a podium to stand off of and then potentially go taller. I just want to make sure there's no loophole there. Another comment I have is I appreciate the muting of the secondary signage. TAVASSOLI: I'll have to look at how we account for the sign area a little bit more closely, but I -- GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I'm trying to figure out how we got -- oh, that again -- how we got to go to 20 feet. I don't think our -- help me understand how you're recommending -- or staff is recommending to go to 20 feet. And I think, in total, that 210 square feet or better is the sign because of the Target bullseye because of all the tenants that are going to be listed. So help me understand how we got there and why you're recommending it. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Watts, really, it's mostly because of the visibility of the current sign with the difference in grade. And as I mentioned, the applicant has provided some better simulations of current conditions, but really, it's in terms of visibility. And a good point to be made is that the current zoning ordinance with regards to sign doesn't really address differences in topography where signs are minimally visible from the most, I guess, larger, I guess, windows, if you will. WATTS: So is this going to alleviate the problems with Target and its volume or its revenue and any other businesses there? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 79 of 97 TAVASSOLI: That's certainly the intent, but whether it, you know, in actuality will result in the needed boost, I guess we would all need a crystal ball to -- WATTS: Maybe I should wait to see the presentation. Thank you. GRAY: Let's go ahead and do the applicant's presentation. TAVASSOLI: Do you want the -- I got the PowerPoint, or you want the Adobe version? MORRIS: The PowerPoint's fine. TAVASSOLI: Okay. MORRIS: Thanks. Mr. Chair, planning commissioners, thank you for your time and consideration, and I know you've done both. I'm going to go very briefly through this because, to some degree, it is what it is. We are here with a shopping center that has -- just to remind you -- the worst performing Target, and they own their building. We would love to keep them. We would love to keep them selfishly because we own the remainder of the shopping center, but you should want to keep them as well, I guess, is the point, if I didn't make that clear enough in the last presentation. And you, fortunately, have a planning directive. You have a general plan. You have economic studies. It's disappointing because, as I said, our work over the last few years is really to hold onto a shopping center that is in significant trouble, and it doesn't take an economist. If you have a car, drive by. It's vacant. We're not keeping it vacant. We've actually moved tenants to try and revitalize it. It's looking less and less likely that that will happen. But to the extent that we could bring Target along with this concept of revitalization and get them excited about it, they very much recognize that they have terrible signage and terrible visibility, two things that a retailer will tell you are the death knell for a retail shopping center. So with that in mind, we've designed new signage, and with staff's help, we've actually looked at where would be appropriate to put those signs in. For the benefit of the commission, you know, these are, again, standards that are either from other jurisdictions were we've developed -- actually, in all instances. Nothing we're proposing here is unique to Fountain Hills in terms of its size or shape. It's all within the guidelines TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 80 of 97 of other jurisdictions where we both own properties or where Target operates. So you're very familiar with the center. I won't bore you with that aspect, but I'll remind you -- and this will give you a sense -- you see the key at the bottom? As you approach the shopping center, virtually the entire shopping center isn't visible until you get closer to the signalized intersection. As you do, you can see glimpses of that building. It's not surprising -- given that 75-foot channel and the drop in elevation -- that not only are a lot of the facades invisible -- unless you know what tenant is there, you cannot, at any speed, perhaps otherwise being a pedestrian, guess what's inside this center. So in recognizing that, we have tried to remedy that with signage that will make the rest of the shopping center more appealing to a tenant. So Farhad has already gone over where those locations are, the existing and the proposed location. We did receive some feedback about the colors, so we have limited the colors, and we will let the tenants know their ability to use trademarks will be more limited in terms of this signage to try and -- ultimately, this was to blend in with the proposed multifamily, but obviously, it has some utility by itself. And then in terms of the location, bringing them closer out to the arterial so they can be seen from a vehicle. This gives you a sense of the existing monument sign and how visible that is versus what is proposed. Again, the size of the signage is larger, and it is brought closer to the intersection and also a little bit further in. I think I've already covered these, but the idea is to reduce vehicular conflicts as well. At least one of the things that we're finding is that the difficulty in reading the tenant signs within the shopping center from the roadway is such that travelers are actually slowing down to try and decipher what is within the shopping center itself. I believe I have -- there was a question earlier, and I wanted to address it. We are not doing face lit panel signs, and these are not internally illuminated letters. Instead, for the sake of the dark skies, we are proposing these as halo illuminated, which is the example on the upper left. So you can see that's both easily dimmed, and it's also less of an impact on the night sky. Any questions? Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 81 of 97 COREY: Just one, if you can go back to the signs themselves. So I understand that you can't see what buildings are back there because there's trees in the way, and this is a solution so that people can see in. Don't cut the trees down. We like the trees in there because it makes it look nice, but I understand that we need to be able to show them what's in there. But I have a concern with the sign that is the 20-foot-high sign. That's a lot larger than we typically have there that we've had there in the past. Did you play around with any other designs? Rather than going up, was there a way to go more sideways and put, maybe, three and three or something? MORRIS: Mr. Chair and Commissioner, we did look at, actually, a variety of different options for this. Bear in mind we knew the tenant panels needed -- we needed to stack tenant panels, but we also needed Target's permission, and Target was very concerned about their visibility. They actually don't have an example of a site that has less of a window of visibility along an arterial. So the original proposals were larger than that. They were a little -- they were slightly taller and significantly less architecturally detailed. It was more -- the focus was on the Target panel and less on the individual tenants, but we dropped it down to 20 feet before we submitted. And certainly, there are other options available. This is something that works given those sightlines and given those constraints, but I don't know if the planning commission had a different idea. COREY: I mean, I don't know. Maybe it would work. It just seems a little high to me. And one more question while I have the floor here -- MORRIS: And I'm sorry to interrupt. I also should have pointed out you don't have another shopping center with, A, this type of vacancy, but B, in terms of the overall size of shop space available, especially if the 6.7 acres remains in shop space and the PADs there. It is, I believe, your largest commercial center -- COREY: Yes. MORRIS: -- which is -- if we're looking to depart -- it's on an arterial, and it's your largest shopping center. COREY: All right. Thanks for clarifying. And lastly, you said that the illumination of the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 82 of 97 stores that are not Target would have that halo illumination. I think that looks a lot better than the kind of the plastic with the lighting behind it. MORRIS: And Mr. Chair, Commissioner, I should have made it clear; that's intended for all of those. Even the Target design would be -- COREY: Okay. That was going to be my question. MORRIS: -- halo illumination. COREY: Okay. So it won't be illuminated red; it will be lit up behind the red. Okay, okay. Thank you. GRAY: Couldn't resist? WATTS: Couldn't resist. Looking at the photos, it looks like there's a line-of-sight issue as you come down Shea -- going eastbound on Shea, and the obstruction is the underbrush more. Because, I agree, I wouldn't really want to remove the trees, but there's an awful lot of underbrush because that line of sight to the signs are lower than the tree itself. What has been done to mitigate some of that line-of-sight issue as far as the underbrush goes and landscaping? GRAY: It's not their property. MORRIS: Mr. Chair -- WATTS: Whose property is it? MORRIS: Yeah. Mr. Chair, Mr. Vice Chair, a couple of thoughts there. One, some of it is the actual right-of-way outside of our property lines, so some vegetation is within the right-of-way and not within our property line. Secondly, I don't believe it's the underbrush that's blocking the tenant panels. It's actually the branches from the trees, largely, that are blocking the sign itself, so we would have to take out trees to make that work and make it more visible, and certainly, that's one approach. But perhaps I did a poor job in the last presentation explaining the gravity of the situation with the shopping center. There aren't a lot of options left, and there, I don't believe, is a lot of time left with the situation we're in. Target is where they are, and they're looking for solutions, and we are trying. This would have been a 60-to-70- million-dollar investment to get them there, and this was -- despite what we heard from TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 83 of 97 the audience -- very much about keeping a thriving shopping center, because that is the business that we're in. So I would love to think that signs in and of themselves will work. They'll certainly help, but this is a significant situation that the shopping center is in. So if you would bear that in mind when you're deciding on this, that would be helpful. WATTS: Have you had any conversations with the town staff about doing something with the landscaping to improve the sightline? MORRIS: I think we've had several conversations over the course of, now, two years. They've owned it for ten, so they have not been short of communication with the town, with the chamber. You'll notice that there are some nonprofits we've talked to. I mean, it's what they do day in and day out. WATTS: I think my problem with it is the size, again. And we just spent almost a year revising our sign ordinance, and it was painful to go through that, and so frankly, I'm not inclined to support anything that goes outside the current sign ordinance. MORRIS: Fair enough. WATTS: Thank you. MORRIS: Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Jason. Paula, let's go to speaker cards. WOODWARD: We have four speaker cards. The first speaker is Larry Meyers and then Jim Spence. After Jim Spence, Pamela Curtis and then Ed Stizza. MEYERS: Chair, Commissioners. So I appreciate the gravity of the Target shopping center that we predicted would fail 20 years ago. I also appreciate the aggravation over the sign ordinance that went on and on and on. Some people don't even like the one we have now. And to parrot Commissioner Kovacevic, once again, Fountain Hills writes a rule, and then staff waves their arm and the rule disappears, so a 50-square-foot sign becomes a 250-square-foot sign or 200-foot sign. I can appreciate Target. I know for a fact they are the worst performing Target in the history of the universe, and we predicted that. And as far as driving down Shea Boulevard, we also predicted 20 years TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 84 of 97 ago when they told us that, oh, my God, everybody that's driving home from Scottsdale on their way to Mesa will shop at Target. We said, are you kidding me? They're not stopping here. They're going home. Go be a Target somewhere where they are in Mesa. And here we are, 20 years later. Once again, there's your crystal ball. Your crystal ball is looking in the rearview mirror. So I can get on board with some -- especially the way they're going to do their lighting. It's not going to be a blaring red bullseye. I can get on board with some new signs. And I think you've even talked about monument signs and how they should be applied out on Shea Boulevard while we were discussing the sign ordinance. But I don't think five times the size that we have now conforms to the Town of Fountain Hills, and quite frankly, if we have to look like somewhere else, then I don't know why we came here, because if I want to look at that sign at 200 square feet, I can go look at it in Scottsdale. So I would appreciate you modifying your -- give them something, but try to adhere to the rules that we've written down, because I don't know why we go through the aggravation of making rules and then making exceptions for anyone, for any circumstance. So I appreciate your thoughtfulness on this, and try to come to some conclusion that doesn't include breaking all the rules you just made. Thank you. SPENCE: Well, again, thank you for hosting and for hearing our problems, hearing our issues with what's being proposed here. Specifically on the signage, I understand how Target would want to put its brand name out there, but I don't think by putting a 20- foot sign out there is going to the be answer. I like the option of removing the ground cover that may be obscuring view. I don't even have a problem removing a tree or a tree limb or two. In the overall scheme of things, I don't think that would be an issue with anyone. In addition, I wouldn't have a problem with the main sign being moved further out towards Shea if that's an option, but I don't think we need to go to 20 feet to make it visible. I know that Target has to be profitable in order to stay in business. I don't think increasing the size of the signage is going to increase the customer flow. It's not going to draw more people in. Everybody knows that Target is there that lives here, so you're TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 85 of 97 talking about transient people coming from Scottsdale or Phoenix going up to the lakes or going up to the mountains. Well, campers, fisherman, everybody, they know it's there. But improved visibility, I don't have a problem with. I really like the idea of the backlighting. That's a great idea. This 20-foot sign -- if you could bring up the slide that shows where that would be at on the street -- believe it or not, that sign is reflecting directly into my man cave, okay? I have to keep my shutters down. So this would only make it -- it would aggravate the situation. I don't know that it would make it worse, but it would aggravate it. And as far as dimming is concerned, it would be really nice if the sign could be fifty percent, if not completely turned off, at, say, 10 o'clock. None of the stores are open. Nobody's going to pull in. Why advertise at that point? And traffic is minimal. So I would say I don't have any issue with the proposal for the signage B. A, I do have a problem. I'd like to stick with what the current regulations say and what the codes are. And again, take a look at what options are. Can we move it? Can we do some landscape modification? Thank you. CURTIS: So we went through this back when building the shopping center, and I think we should stick to the ordinance that is in place for the current signage. I don't think we need bigger, and I don't think we need brighter. You can't miss Target with its bright red sign. You can't miss the new Dollar Tree with its bright green sign and Bealls with its bright green signs. You can't miss them. Also, people are using their phones and Google Maps in their cars and can find anything. You can say, Google, drive me to the nearest place where I can buy socks, and it'll take you to Target. You can say, Google, drive me to the nearest restaurant, and it'll take you to whatever. It'll tell you where anything is. You don't even need the sign. It doesn't keep -- it doesn't certainly keep the shoplifters from finding them, because when you read the weekly police reports there's at least three to four shoplifting reports in there at the 16,000 block of Shea regularly. I also want to say the developer was saying how refuse is really important to them. However, if you do go over and walk the shopping center, the trash receptacles are constantly overflowing. They're not taking care of that trash refuse. Also, with the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 86 of 97 traffic for shopping, it varies throughout the day, but with residents in apartment complex, they're usually going to and from work around the same time, so that's putting the cars on the road at the same times. They mentioned bringing in more commerce. Well, where would the commerce go if you tear down half of the existing shopping center? That also goes for revitalization. Their pictures with the lines of sights, the first one was from a house that is more across from Walgreens, not across from Four Peaks Shopping Center. The second line of sight is on Monterey, and it happens to be right behind my house, which would be right there, in front of the apartments. We built an addition on our house when the shopping center went up so we wouldn't have to see that, but that only affects our ground floor. The other things would shine right into our bedrooms on the second and third floors -- well, the levels. So last thing I want to state is that you said you wanted to have minimal visual impact, but that would only be if you left the height as it is and the signage as it is. Thank you. STIZZA: Good evening. Again, I'm sorry. Excuse me. Commissioner, Paula, Chairman, Vice Chair, and staff, I've got a couple big things here. Are we voting -- before I go any further, are you voting on whether or not -- I mean, on the 22 acres also or just the sign? I'm confused. So are we doing both? Because if we're trying to sneak in the 22 acres and the whole parcel -- not even going to talk on that, but are we -- because those are two separate things on 6. GRAY: It's an amendment to the existing PUD. STIZZA: Okay. So we -- GRAY: It's a modification for signage. STIZZA: Okay. But it has nothing -- but you're still rezoning 22 acres, correct? Didn't they say to have them all congruent on the acreage as far as the -- help me with my confusion. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, if I may clarify. So the rezoning to the PAD will address the signage allowance exclusively. The PAD document explicitly states that the underlying zoning -- the C-2 with the CUPD overlay -- will remain and will be incorporated into this TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 87 of 97 PAD. So it really is just creating a uniform zoning district throughout because, as I mentioned earlier, it is dual zoned, so IND, narrow strip, albeit to the north, and then a PAD for the vast majority of the property -- or rather, C-2 PUD for the vast majority, and so this will create a uniform zoning. GRAY: Fair enough. STIZZA: So is this not valid? So we're trying to -- my question is we are zoning the entire property, correct? We are changing the zoning of the entire property on this particular property? Even after you said that, that's what it sounds like. TAVASSOLI: Yes, yeah. STIZZA: Okay. So -- DEMPSTER: (Indiscernible) Exhibit B of the existing and proposed zoning map, maybe. TAVASSOLI: I'm sorry. I have the applicant's presentation before me. Let me see here. The existing and proposed zoning map, you mentioned, from my most recent presentation? DEMPSTER: Exhibit B (indiscernible). TAVASSOLI: Oh. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible) -- DEMPSTER: The second -- yeah, because -- TAVASSOLI: I'm sorry. I'm -- GRAY: I think the underlying question is if 5 were approved by the council, would the 6.7 acres carve out? TAVASSOLI: Yes, yes. That's a separate PAD, Villages at Four Peaks PAD. We're calling this the Four Peaks Plaza PAD. GRAY: So Mr. Stizza is technically correct. We probably should flipflop the agenda items, address the underlying modification to the PUD, and then carve out the 6.7 acres thereafter. I think it's semantics at this point, but -- STIZZA: This application has nothing to do with the six acres (indiscernible)? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Combining all of them. DEMPSTER: (Indiscernible). TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 88 of 97 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible) 22 acres. GRAY: Well, is it 22 acres or are there 29.2 acres between the two? I read it as two independent acreage counts. TAVASSOLI: Okay. I see it on the screens up there. I don't see it on my own computer screen. But yeah, so this is the area that is the subject of the PAD right here. GRAY: And that -- TAVASSOLI: It includes the Target and -- GRAY: That yellow line is 22.5 acres? TAVASSOLI: Correct. GRAY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: That is the net area of the (indiscernible). GRAY: Ed, what's your reservation? STIZZA: Well, it seemed (indiscernible) read that you would also be voting on to change the zoning on those 22 acres within number 6. That's what it (indiscernible). GRAY: But that's what it is. That's what it is doing. STIZZA: Okay. TAVASSOLI: Yes. STIZZA: So that being said, then, let's just say that's the case. You're going to vote on that. (Indiscernible). So if you're going to vote on that -- and I think everything's alluding to the Target center. Even the developers are telling you that it's going to go. It's done. So this, again, seems to me -- the way I read it originally, to explain what I was talking about, was that this just opens up the door, again, to be able to do whatever they want within that piece of property, which is going to be all apartments because they're even saying Target's on its way out. They're even saying that. So all this waste of putting the signs in -- so let's go back to the signage thing. So them trying to magically help Target, who owns that particular piece of the building, right, is kind of irrelevant, so what are we wasting time on it for? Why are they wasting time on it? Just to prove that they might be able to keep an anchor store? So boy, it all sounds just like it's going to be one major development. So the rest of what I had to say was, basically, I TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 89 of 97 just don't understand why staff is recommending for approval, again, based upon everything that we've heard. So this happens time and time again. And so what do we want Fountain Hills to be? Do we want that area to be a signage corridor? We have a problem with the MCO sign right now, and we've got a distinct problem, and I told the council that. And it is a safety hazard and it's an eyesore, and this will be the same, so. And since Target, you know, is about -- it just seem like this is just a formality. What a waste to put these things up and try to fit something in that just is not going to work. So again, please take into consideration what we want Fountain Hills to be and what it looks like. There is no other signage within town that is this size, and I don't think it's going to increase business. Show some proof, for real. I mean, the visual aspects of it, I pass there four or five times a day, and certainly I never, ever can't see what's in that particular area as far as any of the groupings or anything else. So anyway, please take all that in consideration. Thank you. GRAY: Paula, any more speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chair. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Any written comments? WOODWARD: Yes. There were four written comments against agenda item number 6. GRAY: Thank you. Okay. We'll close the -- STRASSER: If I may, online, I submitted -- I want to talk on both issues. WOODWARD: I'm sorry. Please come up to the podium. STRASSER: Thank you. WOODWARD: Thank you. I apologize. STRASSER: That's okay. WOODWARD: I misunderstood. Thank you. STRASSER: Like a bad penny, I'm back. A couple of things I want to say in the three minutes: It strikes me as rather unusual that something this important for our town, Fountain Hills, would be scheduled during the Christmas season -- this close to Christmas and during -- for our Jewish friends -- in the middle of Hanukkah. I find it kind of questionable. It's pretty important, and I would think you would want to -- you would TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 90 of 97 want to vote on this in the future in January when people are back from their trips. That's not why I came up here, though. What I wanted to mention is the sign; the way it's being shown as being lit is fine in my opinion. I have a bigger problem with MCO. I know that there was a point where one of the employees of the city was going around checking the lumens on people's houses, and I will tell you right now, that sign violates our lumen policy right now. We have to pull the shade down because at night, when it has the maximum amount of white, it can be seen -- I can see it, and we're about a block, block and a half away, and it's so bright it's shining into our house. So I don't know who voted that one in, but that sign violates our town policy, which affects all of us. To Ed's point and Larry's, I didn't think about -- I didn't think about the change of zoning, but if Target does go out, what's to stop that whole area from just being apartments? I mean, if they get the zoning, they can do whatever the hell they want. GRAY: That's not what this agenda item is stipulating. I don't know how we got down that path, but that's not what it's stipulating. STRASSER: Well -- GRAY: This is merely related to a modification to replace and add monument signs. STRASSER: I realize that, but I just wanted to tell you that I agree with what was said. And with regards to the change of zoning and the monument signs, do need to adhere to the ordinance that you all worked so hard to put together. You're losing credibility if you put together an ordinance and then, right away, we're violating our own ordinance. So that's what I have to say. And thank you very much, and have a happy holiday. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you. Any more speaker cards, Paula? WOODWARD: No, Chair. GRAY: Jason, would you like to speak before I close the public hearing? MORRIS: Mr. Chair, only for your benefit. GRAY: Thank you. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 91 of 97 MORRIS: I've heard so many times about the signage ordinance that was just updated that the last one sort of broke the camel's back. You didn't touch, as a town, the monument signs in the ordinance update. So just so you know and so you're aware, you're not violating any of your own rules. You're obviously free to do whatever you would like with these signs. I appreciate the time you've had tonight. To the extent that I can answer any questions, I'd be happy to. GRAY: Can you help me with the definition of muted on the secondary signage real quick? How do we -- does muted mean washing out brand pantones? Is that the right word or -- MORRIS: Limiting the specter of what can be placed on the tenant signage. So yes, essentially, a much more narrow ability to have color or tone. GRAY: So is the updated render, I suppose, that we saw in here -- is that indicative that it would -- that it would all be in a common -- in a common scheme -- in a common brush stainless or a common white? MORRIS: That is exactly what we're proposing because we were suggested that that was to keep it as unified as possible. Now, should a tenant demand a trademark -- if it is, in fact, a trademark, not just a logo -- but you are entitled to have a trademark unadulterated. GRAY: Commissioners, any other questions for -- MORRIS: Is that the noise inside my head at this point? GRAY: No. MORRIS: Okay. GRAY: Those are sheep. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, I do have a question. MORRIS: I was just checking. GRAY: Those are sheep. KOVACEVIC: So we have a dark sky commission -- GRAY: We do. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 92 of 97 KOVACEVIC: -- in town. GRAY: We do. KOVACEVIC: And have you spoken with the dark sky commission about the sign? Is there -- MORRIS: Mr. Chair, Commissioner, no, we have not. KOVACEVIC: Okay. MORRIS: I wasn't aware that you had one. If you had one -- if there is one, we weren't directed to it, but we're happy to speak with one. KOVACEVIC: Yeah. I strongly suggest that you do because it is a very important part of the community -- very important to the community. MORRIS: Certainly. GRAY: What's the difference between permissible under current code for signage and what's existing versus what's proposed? Is it somewhere in between or is existing sign maxed out under current code for square footages and height? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, to answer your question, I believe it's maxed out, but it's largely based on the sign program for the -- WESLEY: If I may, so the existing sign that's there at 14 tall and 10 feet, it exceeds the current code also. Current code is 12 feet tall, 50 square feet, so the previous PUD allowed for an exception to the sign code, and now they want to do that. GRAY: And when you look at the underlying language, Farhad or John, was there a condition previously or currently that takes into account the podium separate from the actual signage surface? It's all from grade? Okay. Commissioners, any other questions or shall I close the public hearing? Commissioner Watts? WATTS: One more comment. I too am a bit confused why the C-2 PUD changed, and I think it would be easier for me to support if we eliminated that verbiage and simply focused on the sign and had an exception for the current sign code as opposed to changing the overlay completely, if that makes sense. GRAY: You can't do that, though. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 93 of 97 WATTS: Why? GRAY: Because it's already in a PUD. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner, I believe that would require an action from the Board of Adjustment through a request for a variance if we wanted to address the sign specifically. WATTS: I'd be more comfortable addressing the sign specifically than talking about changing the entire overlay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Uh-oh. [LAUGHTER] WESLEY: Going to the principal's office now. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, I am. WESLEY: Chair, Vice Chair, if I can, just a little bit more. So as Farhad already mentioned, the PUD currently sets the sign criteria for this development, and so that was done through a specific ordinance. And while maybe you can go to the Board of Adjustment, that would be odd to do it that way. This is the correct way to change those sign standards within that approved PUD. But one of the challenges we have is we no longer have PUD in our ordinance. It was changed to PAD. So that's why that nomenclature is changing, to bring it up to the current code since we don't have PUDs anymore; they're called PADs. So to change nothing else about the approved center other than this aspect of the specific sign regulations that were part of that previous plan development. WATTS: Does it make it easier to change anything else in the future? WESLEY: It'd be back through the same process, a rezoning process through P&Z to council. WATTS: Complete rezoning. So now, what we all -- all we have to do is weigh the current sign code, whether or not it addresses monument signs, and the size is really what we're down to again. WESLEY: Chair, Vice Chair, so the current PUD allows a much larger sign than would be allowed in the sign code, and so do you want to allow even a larger sign is the question. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 94 of 97 WATTS: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: So what is currently allowed in the PUD? How big is the sign? Do we know? Do you guys know? WESLEY: Current allowance -- and I believe it's built to that size -- is a 14 by 10 versus a 20 by 20; is that correct? Is it 12? I thought it was 14. They're telling me it's 12, currently. I thought it was 14. KOVACEVIC: What's that? WESLEY: I thought it was 14. They're telling me it was 12. KOVACEVIC: 12 by 10. GRAY: Does current PUD -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). WESLEY: Okay. So -- KOVACEVIC: Okay. 12 by 14. And 12's the height? GRAY: Is there a restriction in the PUD that prohibits that from being pulled out further into the right-of-way? I mean, isn't that the main objective here is to get it closer to the right-of-way -- get it closer to the curb line? TAVASSOLI: No, Mr. Chairman. To my knowledge, there's nothing that prohibits it from going to the right-of-way. However, approval of this PAD also -- when it comes time for building permit application -- that needs to also accompany an encroachment permit into the right-of-way, and our engineering department expressed that they wouldn't be opposed to such a request. WATTS: I think one of the other concerns is that if you pull it into the right-of-way -- which I do like the idea -- I think you have a line-of-sight issue, again, visibility of traffic, and so on if you pull it too far into the right-of-way. GRAY: We're proposing to pull it anyway. WATTS: I understand. But if we just leave left the same sign and pulled it forward into the right-of-way, then you'd have that line-of-sight problem. TAVASSOLI: Right. Well, there are still comes engineering standards -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 95 of 97 WATTS: Right. TAVASSOLI: -- that need to be adhered to with regards to sight visibility, triangles, and the like. GRAY: All right. Commissioner Dapaah, you still awake? DAPAAH: Yes, yes. I am awake. I must say that you commissioners look great on TV. [LAUGHTER] GRAY: All right. Let's close the public hearing formally. Commissioners, final discussion and a motion, please. No final discussion? Looking for a motion on agenda item 6. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I give up. GRAY: That's not a motion, Commissioner Watts. WATTS: I just want to go home. I move to deny the application as written. GRAY: Commissioners, is there a second to Commissioner Watts's motion? Commissioner's motion has failed. Seeking alternate motions. Commissioner Corey? COREY: So if we approve this, it is within our guidelines -- it meets the sign ordinance criteria, right? GRAY: No. It's site specific to this 22.5 acres. TAVASSOLI: Right. Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Corey, it does deviate, as I mentioned earlier. The main sign -- identified as Sign A over there at the intersection with Center Lane -- deviates zoning ordinance criteria for sign height and sign area. Sign B exceeds the criteria -- or exceeds the limit for sign area only. GRAY: I would personally consider a convoluted motion that recommended approval of 6 with the incorporation of muted secondary signage contingent on the council voting in favor of our agenda item 5. And if agenda item failed to council, then agenda item 6, I would recommend a denial. KOVACEVIC: I would like to add a stipulation that the dark sky commission has the opportunity to review the proposed sign. WESLEY: May I? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 96 of 97 GRAY: Of course you may. WESLEY: Thank you. So there's not a dark sky commission as far as a town-appointed commission. There is a dark sky organization. They have no authority in reviewing these. They do provide some feedback to us from time to time. They do go out and they have their meters where they will check some of these things from time to time, but -- KOVACEVIC: Yeah. And I guess that's what I'm saying, that I would like their feedback on the sign or that their, I guess -- no, because I don't want to give them the right to approve it, obviously. WESLEY: They have no role for that. COREY: I mean, I can say I've served on that board for years, and with the halo illuminant -- if I said it right -- I don't think there's going to be any issue there because those lights are backlit. It's not going to be projecting a bright light out. I think that would be okay. KOVACEVIC: All right, then. COREY: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: Forget my stipulation. GRAY: I think there's a horse-trade here, right? I mean, you're getting bigger, but we've put stipulations of halo lighting; we've put stipulations of a dimming control on this monument at a reasonable hour -- we'll let staff make that determination -- and with the secondary signage being muted. To me, that's horse-trading what's kind of visually unappealing today for something that's a little bit larger but is more aesthetically appealing and probably shows a little better at night for all of those adjacent to it. So that would be my motion with those stipulations, and also in consideration that it's contingent on the council voting in favor of our agenda item 5 on the 6.7-acre rezone. KOVACEVIC: So moved. GRAY: Paula, can we do a roll call vote, please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? GRAY: You just seconded it. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS DECEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 97 of 97 KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chair Watts? WATTS: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Nay. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? GRAY: Aye. Stalemate. Clarification, sir? WESLEY: Yes. So that's a procedural denial, so it would go to town council as a denial. GRAY: Okay. All right. Agenda items 7, 8, and 9, very swiftly. Farhad and John, commission of discussion and request for research, staff summary of commission request, and report from the development director, please. WESLEY: So the first two are yours. Have anything for me? TAVASSOLI: No. WESLEY: No? Okay. So my report would be we do have a couple of items for your consideration at your January meeting, one of which will be to pick up the discussion of wireless communication facilities and give them good staff and direction with some public input on how we want to proceed with that, and the other time, Farhad, it seems like you had one. TAVASSOLI: (Indiscernible). WESLEY: Oh, yes. We've had an application submitted to amend our ordinances that applies to medical marijuana facilities, and so that text will also be before you. GRAY: Very good. All right. Agenda item 10. Adjourned.