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HomeMy WebLinkAbout230911 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 61 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes September 11, 2023 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: Good evening. I'd like to call this meeting to order. This is the September 11th, 2023, meeting of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission. If you would please rise for the pledge of allegiance and a moment of silence. [Pledge] CHAIRMAN GRAY: Ms. Paula, roll call please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Present. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Here. Thank you, Paula. Agenda item 3, call to the public. Paula, do we have any open call speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Number 4, consideration, and possible action to approve the meeting minutes from the August 14th, 2023, venue. Commissioners, any discussion, or a motion, please? DEMPSTER: I'd like to make a motion. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Um-hum. DEMPSTER: I move to approve the regular meeting minutes of Planning and Zoning Commission August 14th, 2023. COREY: Second. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: Motion to approve and a second. All in favor? ALL: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven-zero. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Thank you. Agenda item 5, consideration, and possible action to appoint a chairperson to the Planning and Zoning Commission. I guess first we'll start off with Commissioners, those that have an interest in the position of Chair. WATTS: I think you're it. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Nobody else? Okay. Then in relation to agenda item 5, do we have a nominee for the position of chair? Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I nominate a person by the name of Peter Gray. DAPAAH: I will second that. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts has made the nomination. Commissioner Dapaah has seconded. Paula let's do roll call, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven-zero. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Thank you, Paula. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 61 Agenda item 6, consideration, and possible action -- I guess there's no -- why is there possible action, John? It's just action, right? Consideration and action to appoint a vice chair to the Planning and Zoning Commission. Commissioners, those that have interest. DEMPSTER: Or a motion. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Corey, Commissioner Watts, Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: I wanted to make a motion. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Are you sure? It's the -- DEMPSTER: I am -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- last chance to stay in. DEMPSTER: I had my turn, thank you. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Well, all right. So, Commissioners seeking the nomination are Commissioner Watts and Commissioner Corey. It's rare that we have two. We thought we might have two tonight. Let's just do 60 seconds or less reasons for seeking nomination and then we'll look for a nomination from the rest of the Commission. Commissioner Corey? COREY: Sure. All right. Thank you, Chair. Well, I would like to continue to contribute to the change. And just wanted to make sure that I offered my service to step up if the need was there and help shape the future of the Planning and Zoning Commission. Also, I think it's an important role to help influence others. You know, I'm a graduate from the Leadership Academy, and I want to be able to have them see that there's a diverse group of people up here that can help lead the Planning and Zoning Commission. Personally, for personal growth, of course, skill development, a sense of accomplishment. And also, you know, I think the unique part that I bring to the table is diversity of style, have inclusive personality, foster a sense of belonging, you know, as you do as well, but I think it's important to make everyone feel welcome and that they're a part of this team. So that's what I would bring. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner Corey. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Thank you, Chairman Gray, for the question and the opportunity to present my TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 61 qualifications. First off, is 40-years-plus as a contractor, business owner, and as well as 35-year member of the town of Fountain Hills. So been here a long time, seen an awful lot. Second, I've got an extensive background in management, business, finance, and goal setting, and accomplishment of those goals, planning, and project management; all the things that are related to planning and zoning, the things that we normally see that are presented to us. Third, I've got a deep understanding of the roll of Planning and Zoning, what we're expected to do, how we're supposed to protect the interest of the public, and how we go about that. Not always in the easiest and less painful way, but that's the goal of the town. And my background lends itself to being strong enough to ask tough questions of any applicant and to help find solutions that are in the best interest of the town and town residents as well. So those are the qualifications that I think I bring. And my focus, in addition to that, will continue to be on the residents, the best interest, the things that serve the town, and the residents as well. So thank you. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner Watts. Commissioners, any questions of the two possible vice chairs? Or if not, we'll seek a nominee from the Commission. KOVACEVIC: I'll nominate Rick Watts. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic has nominated Commissioner Watts. Is there a second to that nomination? DAPAAH: I like both candidates but if we were to pick one, I would also say Commissioner Watts has an extensive background and has shown extensive knowledge in land use, and what we do. And so I would go with Watts as well. CHAIRMAN GRAY: So that's a second for Commissioner Watts? DAPAAH: Yes. CHAIRMAN GRAY: And is there a nomination for Commissioner Corey? DEMPSTER: Yes. I'd like to nominate Commissioner Corey. He does have seniority. I believe he's been on the commission a little longer and I think that's important. And I've TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 61 seen him in action in other areas in Fountain Hills. Are you on the Sanitary District -- COREY: Yes. DEMPSTER: -- board? And I think he is very modest and has not conveyed some of the other positions that you've held and things that you've done. So but I do think you have a lot of experience as well. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Dempster has made a nomination for Commissioner Corey. Is there a second to that nomination? It's very odd that we have two nominees. I'll go ahead and second the nomination for Commissioner Corey to keep the proceedings in order here. Based on seniority, we'll first do a roll call vote for Commissioner Corey. And if successful, Commissioner Corey, based on that seniority, would be appointed. If that vote is not favorable, then we will proceed to a roll call for Commissioner Watts. Paula? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Are you going to vote for yourself or not? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: I'm a little perplexed as to what it is that we're voting on. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Based on Commissioner Corey's seniority on the Commission, we're first taking up his roll call vote to be appointed for vice chair. If his roll call vote is not four to three or greater, then we'll take up a roll call vote for Commissioner Watts. Again, it's just solely predicated on the seniority. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Nay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 61 WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Nay. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Nay. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Aye. Four to three against? WOODWARD: Three for and four against. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. On that basis we will take up a roll call vote for Commissioner Watts to be appointed to the position of Vice Chair. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Ya. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Five-two. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. Thank you, Paula. It's an interesting way to get to a conclusion but hopefully a fair one. Onto the main event, agenda item 7, public hearing, consideration and possible action on Ordinance 23-04 to repeal and replace the Zoning Ordinance Chapter 6, signage TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 61 regulations. John? WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioners, good evening. Good to be with you this evening. And hopefully let's take out the possible action and let's take action tonight. We'd really like to get this on to Council, so hopefully we can come to conclusion. Not that I'm trying to rush anything, and certainly the Commission can continue to take as much time as you need. But just quick background. Again, Town Council has asked staff and the Planning Commission to consider possible amendments to the sign ordinance, and the Council believes that there are some areas that can and should be modified to better meet the needs of businesses in the community. And the Commission has previously reviewed the draft language and provided feedback and discussion to Council at a couple of previous meetings. So again, the Town Council's goal has been to primarily increase options signage for businesses. What I've heard from the Commission primarily over the last couple meetings is a concern for too much sign clutter. Staff's role in this has been to try to hear what the Council and the Commission is looking for and things we hear from the public. As staff, we don't care if it's more signs, bigger signs, smaller signs, fewer signs, different kind of signs, we're just trying to hear what the community is looking for, what the Commission is looking for, and try to put that in to a legible, enforceable, and understandable ordinance. And so with taking what we've heard previously and supply to you a draft ordinance that we hope has gotten there. If not, hopefully we can figure out where those other changes might be needed this evening and get to a successful conclusion. What I would like to do first this evening is just go through each category where signs might be used and make sure we understand what the code as modified, and drafted, and presented to you would allow, and then we'll talk about a few other questions, and, if necessary, we can go into the individual actual changes that are being proposed. So to start with permanent signage allowed for commercial industrial signs or TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 61 commercial and industrial developments. Just want to make one statement up front. The previous ordinance, prior to the amendment we did a year or so ago, had aggregate maximums on the number of signs. We took that out. And so that's not in the code today and won't be in the code going forward unless you make some change. So as we look at each of these types that are allowed it's not that you get one or another, a business could have all of them if they so choose and it fit on their property. So a business could have a awning sign at one square foot per foot of frontage, a building wall sign, drive-thru sign, freestanding wall/fence sign, hanging/under canopy sign, monument sign, onsite directional, projecting, window signs. So those are the sign types and basic sizes allowed as permanent signage for commercial industrial property. Any questions about those basic allowances for permanent signs? WATTS: One quick question, John. WESLEY: Yes. WATTS: Are the window signs, do they require the same type of a permit that a fixed sign, a monument sign, it permits a permanent? WESLEY: I'm going to say yes. I can't recall that we've had any window signs as permanent signs come in. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think on one -- oh, no. I was -- WESLEY: But we would -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- expecting another question. WESLEY: It doesn't need a building permit per se, but that's the only way we'd be able to tell them that, yes, you meet your 50 percent requirement. WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: That'd be the only thing we'd be looking for. WATTS: But they have to apply for and get a permit? WESLEY: Yes. I don't think -- I don't know anything that would exempt them in the code. Maybe look at that a little closer, but I don't know an exception. WATTS: Do they just post that permit number on the front of the window then, somewhere on the window? Is there a specific place to post it? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 61 WESLEY: So once a sign is constructed, there would be no need to post a permit anywhere. WATTS: Except for compliance. WESLEY: Right, yeah. I mean, initially they'd apply for it, it'd get issued, it'd have a permit number. At some point they would have the sign installed and request inspection. We'd go see that, yes, it meets what was approved and they'd be done. There'd be no ongoing reason to post the permit. WATTS: Okay. Thank you. WESLEY: No other questions there, we'll move onto temporary signage allowance for commercial and industrial. So A-frame, T-frames, one per entry with a maximum of two. One sign, six-square feet. If you have two signs, aggregate of nine. So a six and a three, a five and a four, and whatever, as long as meet aggregate of nine. Allowed in the right of way adjacent to commercial, including Shae. Not on sidewalk except for in the Town Center pedestrian area and those in the right of way sunrise to sunset. Could have balloons. Could have banners. This has been one of the talking points about how long you can have the banner. And so the latest proposal is a maximum 150 days per calendar year, maximum of 30 days at a time. So you could do that 30 days, five times a year. You could do 12 days, 10 times a year. 12 day -- anyway. Whatever the combination you want. And they still have in there the provision if that's not enough, you can apply for the temporary use permit to consider allowing it there's something unique to give you additional beyond that. And the other one that we've talked about that you may want to, again, revisit as we talk about it now, is the new business. We talked about half a year to a full year. I've gone ahead and included the full year. It can be switched out but they must be maintained per the requirements for maintaining a sign. I know that had been one of the concerns before it gets tattered and torn over a period of time, and if that's the case, code compliance can tell them they need to get it replaced, repaired. So are we good with the one year or want to go with less than that? CHAIRMAN GRAY: I was just going to -- I'm fine with the one year. But is there -- I hate TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 61 that we're even having this conversation. Is there a loophole in that to get to one and half years if you get into that second calendar year and go for 150 days on the back of your inaugural year? WESLEY: So yes. So you go through your inaugural year, then you're next year, you're allowed 150 days. You couldn't do it all at once 30 days at a time. CHAIRMAN GRAY: And then -- WESLEY: You would have to -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- do we define -- we don't define year by January 1, December -- WESLEY: Not -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- 31, right? It's -- WESLEY: Correct. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: But for the new business one year, it would be from when they get their business license and/or erect the sign after that point for a year. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: But the other one, the 150 days, that is based on a calendar year. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Commissioner Gray, John, I'm confused because are we going through as we do in the chapter itself by section or are we looking at each of these individually kind of exclusive? I took it and put everything by chapter. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: So we jumped all of a sudden to section -- where in the heck did it go -- to section A-4. Should we ask questions as we go here or are we going to continue to go through by section number? WESLEY: So Chairman, Vice Chair Watts, my plan here this evening was to first go through and make sure we have an understanding what the code allowances are just across the board for all the signs, and then as necessary we can go into the detail of each sign type and go through each of the actually changes. I do have those slides available below here. But this would be a good place initially to bring up questions and TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 61 comments if you have them. WATTS: Okay. In that case then I think that the one year has to be determined -- is it going to be determined by when they start construction because a banner goes up at that point? Is it when they get a C of O? Or is the business license, when they get that? Because they may get a business license but not actually conduct business, per se, until the building is done, or the tenant improvement is done. So what's the trigger on those? WESLEY: Trigger is a business license for new business at that location. WATTS: So if they waited 90 days for construction, then they're going to be reduced to 60 days for the banner to be in place? WESLEY: If they applied for their -- so they have to have a new business license, and then that allows them then the year because it's new business, but they would apply for the actual banner permit that allows them that year whenever they're ready to put up the banner, and they'd get a year from that point. WATTS: They get a year from the time that they apply for the business license? WESLEY: From the time they apply for the banner permit. WATTS: The banner permit. WESLEY: Right. WATTS: And when they start using that permit, they've got one year -- WESLEY: Correct. WATTS: -- from that point? WESLEY: Correct. WATTS: Or 150 days within that year? WESLEY: For the new business license, a solid full year, 365 days. WATTS: Okay. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Is your concern the coming soon sign? WATTS: Yeah. I mean, there -- WESLEY: But that's -- WATTS: -- there's a variety of them, sure. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 61 WESLEY: -- but that's why it allows it to be switched out. The first sign they put up for a month or two is a coming soon sign, then take that down and put up, okay, it's just a business name because now they're past that -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: I think his -- WESLEY: -- coming soon sign. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- his point is, though, inevitably coffee shop X is going to be coming soon long before their business license is in place, theoretically, right? I mean, they're going to want that 120 day -- maybe not 120 -- let's say 90 days ahead of license, or is the license process generally more accelerated? WESLEY: The license typically doesn't take very long. Matter of a few days usually. CHAIRMAN GRAY: But if it were a coffee shop, can they actually solicit and receive a business license before they have a certificate of occupancy? I think generically we're just -- WESLEY: I don't believe so. CHAIRMAN GRAY: No. So then they would be disenfranchised to some degree by not being able to advance advertise their business through this -- WESLEY: Well, they could use that part of the 150 day. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Not if their trigger is the -- unless you're allowing them to backdate the start of their timeclock. If I understood it right, the day zero on their clock is business license issuance. If they can't obtain that business license until they achieve substantial completion or certificate of occupancy, then they've lost out on that window preopening to say coming soon, coming March of 2024, or whatever. WESLEY: So from that, the property is drawing on that 150 days of the calendar year to do anything prior to the one year they get once they get the new business open. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I see. Okay. Okay. WATTS: I'm wondering if we shouldn't just make it clearer that it's from the certificate of occupancy that's going to -- WESLEY: But it's not necessarily a new build. WATTS: Well, but even a tenant improvement requires a C of O when you treat -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 61 WESLEY: You might not even have a tenant improvement. If it's just a new business in an existing retail space, they might just move in. WATTS: I just don't want to short circuit the whole process either and to, you know, penalize somebody unintentionally. WESLEY: Right. WATTS: Because when you start -- and my focus is really on if I took one of the facilities that we've got all fenced off, and you've got this plethora of signs that we really don't have a lot of control over, but they pepper the fence with signs from every contractor that's on that site for advertisement purposes. I don't know that we address those, and I don't know that the owner of that business is going to be disenfranchised by having those signs up, or are they? WESLEY: So section 6.08 B is signs for property under construction. And there's an allowance there for those temporary signs that would go on the fence -- WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: -- or whatever for those contractors. So that's separate from any of this allowance. WATTS: As long as we don't do any harm, then I'm okay with that. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Maybe just a clarification, John, just to further -- in the miscellaneous requirements under subsection III, item 2, it says one year from the date the business opens. So maybe one year from the date of the banner application; would that clarify? WESLEY: Possibly. But again, it's the timing in the individual case. Somebody might get their door unlocked, and start the business, and not be ready to put up their sign for a few days, but might've -- DEMPSTER: But they'd have to -- WESLEY: -- ordered the sign. But -- DEMPSTER: -- apply? WESLEY: -- but when they -- DEMPSTER: Excuse me. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 61 WESLEY: -- when they apply, they tell us what date they want to start with the sign and then it'd be one year from that date that they would -- DEMPSTER: So you'd work with the business. It's not -- I think Commissioner Watts is trying to protect that business that's looking for the different stages of coming soon versus, you know, we're here and we changed hours or something; is that -- WATTS: Or you've got pre-grand openings and -- DEMPSTER: Yeah. WATTS: -- yeah, all sorts of things, so you've got a variety of signs that could go up. DEMPSTER: Um-hum. WATTS: Add do those -- are they a trigger event, is what I'd be concerned about? WESLEY: So again, do you think the 150-day allowance per calendar year, that could be used in addition to this, would cover it? WATTS: I'm okay with the 150 days in a calendar year, 30 days at a time, and the change. I just don't know what starts that one-year period, and I think that's where we need something of a qualifier that causes that event to start. WESLEY: And it does say from the date the business opens. That is how it is in the code. So hopefully an applicant would properly time their application and the posting of the sign based on when they're going to open. But we could congest that if there's some other language that works better. WATTS: Well, I certainly don't want to whole the evening up talking about this particular issue, so I think this is going to be one of those situations where let's see how it works because we can always come back and amend it later -- WESLEY: Um-hum. WATTS: -- if need be. WESLEY: Sure. WATTS: Either strengthen it or weaken it, whatever, because it may not be sufficient. I'm sorry. CHAIRMAN GRAY: You can come back -- WATTS: You know -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- to your own peril, Commissioner. We're not coming back. WATTS: I get it. But I thought there was an easy answer but clearly there's not. So thank you, John. CHAIRMAN GRAY: So John, before you leave it -- WESLEY: Yes. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- and I hate to go the other side of this. But I don't recall language anywhere that ties a scenario like this down to needing to have the site already improved, right? So could I buy a vacant commercial lot and stand a sign up for 150 consecutive days, or do I need to have improvement on the site to do that? I do. WESLEY: Yes. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Where is that referenced back? How do we tie that down? Because I couldn't find that. I'll accept it if you say -- if you say it's in there, I'm good and we can move on. I just wanted to double check it. WESLEY: So 6.08 B, temporary sign allowance for construction on undeveloped property. So I guess if I'm a vacant lot over here off of Verde River or wherever, certainly that vacant lot's going to have a post and board sign on it because you're trying to sell it. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Um-hum. WESLEY: And they might put a yard sign on it to help attract. So you can have signs. Bigger signs or (indiscernible). CHAIRMAN GRAY: But if I wanted to put a big sign that said medical office building here, build to suit, type of thing? WESLEY: So to have the bigger ones that you sometimes see with properties like that, the code currently says you need to be at least five acres in size, I believe. Turn back to that. So if that should be smaller, we can certainly make that smaller. Here we go. Maybe that's a different section. So maybe it doesn't have a size here. Okay. That's elsewhere. So this one, like I said, is up in the post and board signs. Post and board signs is the one that says they have to be 5 acres or larger to have a 32-square-foot sign. So we can make that smaller if you'd prefer to cover any size vacant parcel. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: I suppose I'm indifferent. WESLEY: Which is -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: What I was just trying to avoid is we can't control the messaging on the sign if you got a vacant plot. WESLEY: Um-hum. CHAIRMAN GRAY: 150 days a year you could throw up a pretty significant message. WESLEY: Yeah. You can put a post and board sign up there permanently, put a yard sign there permanently. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. Well, I'm willing to move on. WESLEY: Which brings us to post and boards. And I guess I didn't include vacant piece on here, we just don't see that very much. But again, temporary commercial and industrial. Post and boards, one per street front, six square feet, eight feet tall. Allowed in the right of way. Sign walkers are allowed. Window signs, 50 percent of the window. Yard sign, eight square foot, five foot tall. As I was going back through this after sending it out, I realized it had not included the same sunrise to sunset provision in here that was intended and so I've added that into this section. So those yard signs, commercial areas except Shae. Questions on the temporary sign allowance for commercial and industrial? DEMPSTER: Not on the commercial but you did have flags on the -- WESLEY: Um-hum. DEMPSTER: -- previous and we didn't speak about that. I do have a questions because I've seen flag poles with uplighting. And being a Dark Sky community, would it make sense to put a notation about -- or you know how you have notations back to other parts of the ordinance, to put a notation to the Dark Sky rules about uplighting because -- WESLEY: Yeah. DEMPSTER: -- I think traditionally people upplight flags and -- WESLEY: We could look at that. DEMPSTER: Just a thought. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 61 WESLEY: Okay. Multi-family permanent sign allowance. CHAIRMAN GRAY: John, was that -- WESLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- was that 6.07, John? Or am I too far into this? WESLEY: Excuse me, for what? CHAIRMAN GRAY: The temp commercial that you just left there? WESLEY: So those would really all be in 6.08. CHAIRMAN GRAY: 6.08? WESLEY: Yes. That's where you'll find all the detail. CHAIRMAN GRAY: So is it 6 -- where are the election corridors, are in 6.07 or 6.08? WESLEY: Well, so 6.07 has I think that type of language that you may be looking for there. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Are we going to circle back to that one in the presentation? WESLEY: Well, yes, we will. We'll get there. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. All right. WESLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I'll wait then. WESLEY: Okay. Because it did come up. Okay. WATTS: Sir, I do have a question about 6.07 while you're on -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts? Well, John said we're going to come back to 6.07. WATTS: Oh, we are going to come back to 6.07, okay. WESLEY: We'll see if we get to the question you have in 6.07 but I've got all of it here. We've got 50, 60 slides, so. WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: So multi-family. Permanent signage allowance, awning/canopy signs, building wall signs, free standing wall signs, monument signs. Any questions, needs for permanent signage for multi-family? WATTS: A comment on the hanging signs under the walkways and so on. The bottom of TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 61 those signs being eight feet, I know that I like to jump up and touch signs. So this is my bad. Should they be that low or should they be higher? And I think my preference would be they'd be higher so people aren't jumping, hitting the signs, they're a temptation for people. CHAIRMAN GRAY: What's your vertical jump? WATTS: Better than -- enough to get to eight feet. KOVACEVIC: You still got those kind of height? WATTS: A volleyball court, I can block. So that's an eight-foot net. Do we have any practical data to support the eight-foot height? Because my opinion is just that. I know that I can reach eight feet and it's a temptation for kids and others. WESLEY: So it's been too long since I've looked at the old, old code. WATTS: Um-hum. WESLEY: We didn't change many of those types of standards. So I suspect that's what has been the standard for a period of time, but I'd have to go back and verify that. I don't know that we've issued any of that type of sign -- WATTS: No issues? WESLEY: -- in the last four years, issued any sign permits for that type of sign. I've not heard of any issues or any concerns, property owners coming back and saying, oh, people keep hitting my sign and I want to change it. But -- WATTS: Well, they hit it, they put sticky stuff on it, and they put labels -- WESLEY: Yeah, right. WATTS: -- and it's a temptation when it's -- WESLEY: Sure. WATTS: -- that low, so. WESLEY: Sure. WATTS: Just -- WESLEY: So again, whatever the Commission wants to do, 10, 12 feet, we'll do whatever you want to do, but I don't know if there's been any problems with 8. WATTS: Okay. Thank you. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 61 WESLEY: Okay. CHAIRMAN GRAY: You're on an island on that one. WATTS: I know. That's okay. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: Permanent signage multi-family. Again, any questions, comments, concerns about that allowance? Hearing none. Temporary signs for multi-family. So again, A-frames as directional only. Same size. Right of way. When used as a residential directional, can have one on property and then five additional. If you're a 20-unit or more complex you could have then a banner sign, and again the same allowances for the number of days. And again, the flagpole allowance. Post and board allowance. And the yard signs. We had some discussion last time about how to handle condominiums. I proposed something a little bit more than this. Commission didn't seem too thrilled with it but I still felt like on the smaller ones, the two and three units where you really just have a couple of owners that can work together, hopefully, if they have that signage, need to leave that allowance in there. Questions on temporary allowance for multi-family? Then -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: Mr. Watts? WESLEY: Whoops. WATTS: Help me understand. I see the two to three for two per unit and I see the over 20. Is there a gap between 4 to 19 that we don't cover? WESLEY: So this one in terms of the banner, so -- WATTS: So this occurs a couple different places where we talk two to three and then go -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- jump to 20, so. WESLEY: Right, right. And so but there are different sign types, it's not the same sign type. And so before I had suggested maybe some more allowance for condominiums. The concern here, if you remember back to our discussion couple months ago, when TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 61 you're in a condominium you own the inside of your unit but the ground is owned in common. And so when we base an allowance on a lot in that residential setting, there's one lot, and so you've got actually two owners. If they're limited to just the same two signs total, that one lot's allowed, that seemed to be a little bit restrictive. And in those smaller lot situations for the yard signs we ought to allow each owner to have a little bit -- have the same rights as a individual property owner might have. And so but once you got beyond three units, based on some discussion here, it seemed like, okay, starts to get too confusing, the association's probably going to have more control over what's going on in that common area, and so forth. So that's why it's limited to two or three there. But the 20 for the banner sign, again, that's a number I pulled out of the air. You want that higher, you want it lower, fine with that. But smaller apartment complexes didn't seem to have the same need for a banner sign as a larger complex. WATTS: I think this is the same situation where I just want to make sure we don't disenfranchise somebody that's in the 4 to 19 and somebody in code enforcement says, well, you can only have two, or you can have more, or whatever the case may be. So if your comfortable that there's no infractions today, then I can accept that. WESLEY: See, I have no idea if there are infractions today or not. There could be some out there, but again, we're talking two different sign types. WATTS: Right. But either one could apply to that window between 4 and 19 regardless of the sign type because it's referenced a couple different places throughout the chapter. And it just seemed like there was this void where they weren't addressed. And maybe it's I didn't read it thoroughly enough. After so many hours you get tired of reading this stuff, right? WESLEY: Um-hum. WATTS: It's lengthy. WESLEY: Anybody else have a concern or question here? Do we need to explore that further? DEMPSTER: Just to talk it through. In the past our traditional apartment complexes TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 61 have been quite large but recently the more newer apartment complexes for rent are smaller like on the corner of Saguaro and Gunsight, what is that, nine? WESLEY: Nine, um-hum. DEMPSTER: And then El Lago. So -- WATTS: There's a couple of sevens out there. DEMPSTER: -- potentially, you know, our newer -- and we've approved some newer -- WATTS: Um-hum. DEMPSTER: -- ones that are smaller than the large. So and this is for the use of the complex owner -- WESLEY: Right. DEMPSTER: -- Right? Yeah. WESLEY: Yeah. So if you'd like to bring that down from 20 to -- DEMPSTER: Nine. WESLEY: -- to 9, or 5, or whatever number you want to bring that down to, because I pulled 20 out of the air. DEMPSTER: I think I'd like to see it brought down because of our newest complexes and ones that we've approved recently. WATTS: I'd like to do the same thing. I'd like to take away the ambiguity between 3 and 20 and close that gap. So either take 3 up to some number and then 20 down to some number, and maybe it's 10 so that we capture the 7's and the 9's that we just recently approved regardless of ownership. It would take some of that ambiguity. So would you be okay with taking the 2 and 3 up to 10 and the 20 back down to 11? DEMPSTER: Well, we're talking about banners. Can you go back one slide? Okay. WESLEY: Whoops. I go -- DEMPSTER: Thank you. So if 20 or more units. So less than 20 units, they would not be allowed a banner? WESLEY: Correct. So if you'd like to -- I heard bring that down to 9. Is that consensus of the Commission? We can do that. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Be allowed a banner above 9; is that what you're proposing? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 61 DEMPSTER: Um-hum. Nine or more units. WATTS: I would support 9 or 10. I don't think a banner is appropriate in a small 7 to 9, that's why I went to 10. 32 square feet is big. Where are they going to put it? Whose back yard? Whose driveway? So I don't think that works there, but in the over 10 there should be enough room. I'd be fine with that, either 9 or 10. KOVACEVIC: We just approved seven units. They're 18 feet wide, so 32 feet wouldn't even be across two units on that seven-unit building. So it's not that big. I mean, it was 2 by 16 instead of 4 by 8. It's still -- WATTS: Want it on your patio? KOVACEVIC: Well, it's going to -- DEMPSTER: Or if they -- KOVACEVIC: -- be while the building's under construction and while they're leasing. It's a for-lease sign. I mean, that's when you're going to have the banner. WATTS: It doesn't say that though. It says 150 days a year and you can change the content. KOVACEVIC: In a tenancy scenario you have no control of that. WATTS: Right. KOVACEVIC: How about we don't allow anything? WATTS: You're saying not allow any under 20? I mean, there's a lot of properties -- a lot. There are properties that have renovations going on, new, newly remodeled, and they put banners up, and they have the space to support the properties or the banners. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I think we're in that zone of trying to accommodate more than we reasonably need to accommodate with a signage ordinance. I think your point is if you have 10, 15, 20 units, you probably have a perimeter structure that a sign could be mounted to. It's not necessarily direct affixed to the units of the building. You get to that economy of scale when you start to get into the upper teens and 20's. That's probably why that threshold is there is to facilitate, you know, your reservation there. When you get down to ten and nine, you're talking about a complex that has no accessory structures, no accessories in the form of a perimeter, et cetera. It's just a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 61 building. So you're talking about affixing that, you know, to the building. I don't know if that's appropriate or not but WESLEY: Chair, they'll typically have a landscape set back that it could go in as long as they don't damage any landscaping. WATTS: Could you put it in the right of way as well? WESLEY: Not in the right of way but it can be, again, in that landscape area adjacent to the right of way. CHAIRMAN GRAY: But nobody's going to do that. They're going to affix that to the building. WESLEY: They will most likely. DEMPSTER: So for signage in this multi-family they have currently under 20 units they have the A-frame ability, they have the flag. WESLEY: A-frame as a directional only. DEMPSTER: Okay. So for signage, can you go to the next slide please? So they do have post and board -- WESLEY: And yard signs. DEMPSTER: -- and yard signs. WESLEY: Um-hum. DEMPSTER: So they do other options. I'm just -- WESLEY: So again, this gets tricky. So the post and board, or excuse me, the A-frame is a yard sign, so you're going to have an open -- it's getting ready to open, so have an open house a weekend, and they put out the sign, and lead people in. They can do that because we really can't control the content of what's on those signs, they could actually be doing that more frequently than that. DEMPSTER: Um-hum. WESLEY: But that could then be used for a newly opening complex. WATTS: One last comment, maybe. Why can't you have a banner sign in the right of way as depicted in the picture that we've got where it shows two posts and a banner sign stretched between those two posts? What's the difference between a post sign in TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 61 the right of way and a banner sign with two posts in the right of way, other than size? WESLEY: If you would like to allow it in the right of way, we can adjust it to be in the right of way. WATTS: I think from the Chairman's point we're trying to accommodate everybody and I'm just trying to find a way to eliminate heads and accommodate everybody. So how would you feel about the right of way? WESLEY: I think we start to have more concerns with site visibility when we do that, but we could address that with each permit to make sure it wasn't blocking the site visibility along that. We already had the concern with the post and boards when they go in the right of way because you're driving something into to the ground and you don't know what utilities are under there, and so when you do that stake for the banners, you, again, run that risk. But sometimes they do get torn and tattered and loose from their stakes, and now they're blowing out into the street. That might be another concern about having them out in the right of way. But again, whatever the Commission wants to do. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I'm going to be the bad guy. I say no banner signs allowed in multi- families. KOVACEVIC: No signs allowed on what? CHAIRMAN GRAY: On multi-family residences. I don't see the point. The point of this is to try to facilitate the transaction, either the rental or the sale of the property. I just don't want to see a bunch of signs bolted to efess (ph.) when I drive around town and all of these ten complex units. I don't want to see it. I don't think it serves any purpose. It's cluttery. I mean, how many red openings soon signs do you need to see? And I think when you get into building and developing a nine-condo price point complex, you're into, you know, some bespoke marketing, or you know, you're into things other than trying to capture the masses. And so I just don't think it's warranted. I think it needs to go away. And I'm alone in that. That's fine. WATTS: No, you're not. I think under 20 I think you could be alone and it goes back to the area that is available to put the banners up. So I think there has to be some sort of a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 61 minimum footage so you don't have the issues when we looked at traffic patterns and turning, and so on, we don't have those. I'm kind of amazed that we don't also force the applicant for the sign permit to get Blue Stake or the utilities to come out and stake before they put the sign in. I thought that would be part of it. It's kind of like to me a no brainer. You've got water, you've got all kinds of stuff under there. So but to my dismay, you probably don't have any of those issues either, right? WESLEY: Not that I'm aware of. I did discuss that with the Public Works director in terms of the post and board signs that can go in the right of way under the proposed code, and did we want to start requiring -- I guess, a little bit outside my area, but I believe that Blue Stake is required for those, but nobody's able to really enforce it. So I talked to Public Works about requiring an encroachment permit for any of those and the opinion was that would be too difficult for people on both sides to really require that encroachment permit. WATTS: I think the only problem with discriminating under 20 units is just that, it's discrimination. So now you've got an issue there too, so. CHAIRMAN GRAY: That's why we should get rid of them altogether. No discriminating against anyone. WATTS: I think you can accomplish the same thing without banners with A-frame signs, particularly because of the size of them and the quantity of them. DEMPSTER: For the smaller -- WATTS: Yeah. DEMPSTER: -- units. CHAIRMAN GRAY: We're leaving it alone? DEMPSTER: Good discussion. COREY: Good discussion Susan said. CHAIRMAN GRAY: So we're going to leave it alone or are we going to adjust it? Let's move on from this one. DEMPSTER: Let's move on. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 61 WATTS: I think it's another one of those that you can tweak it later. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Let's flag it for the Council as a heavily deliberated section that they can take up and expand upon. WESLEY: Okay. Nonresidential uses in residential districts is another category out there, so permanent signs, allowances for that type of use. So mostly this is churches. It can be other things by code but I'm not really necessarily aware of any. But we do have several churches that are in residential districts. So they allow the awnings, the building wall signs, the monument signs. Temporary. Balloons, banners -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: John, I just -- WESLEY: Yes. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- if you'd go back one slide. We can't go back and redevelop the town necessarily, obviously. But do you think that the square footage ratio for the monument signs is sufficient? And I say that because so much of what we're trying to accommodate through all of these different signage provisions, especially in the commercial districts, is really stuff that should have been provisioned for with monuments. I think developers should have had a significantly higher obligation to showcase the suites or the tenancy of their particular development. So is that ratio sufficient to achieve that in your mind? WESLEY: So again, it's been a little while since I've looked at other community's sign codes to remember how this compares. But here we're back to the commercial version, so it's 50 square feet, 12 feet tall. I know the 12 feet tall is pretty consistent with a lot of Valley cities where 50 square feet, I think, is fairly consistent too. It may be a little bit on the small side. So again, if the Commission would like to recommend that we up that to something larger, we could. I'm not sure how many -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. WESLEY: -- existing centers would come back at the cost -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: I know. WESLEY: -- to -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: I realize that. But I don't know that it should necessarily be provisioned as larger, but I think that it should -- I think there should, in this case, be some discretion by the development director to, you know, allow something that would be conforming with the development. I think there should be some additional subjectivity in that that's maybe not provisioned by those caps. WESLEY: Right. So and we did increase it with the update a couple years ago to allow two per 300 feet, where it used to just be limited one total. So we've already made that allowance for additional monument signs. And in 6.06 sign plans, again, nobody's used it. It's been lost over the details, but there are allowances within that if you do a sign plan to increase sign area as part of that process. I'm seeing a 10 percent increase, and I think there's another one, a second one if you do some other creative things. So there is some 28allowance if you do a sign plan already to increase those areas. Let's see here. So temporary non-residential. Balloons, banners, flags, post and board, yard signs. So one thing I noticed when I was going back through here, we allow for the directional signs in terms of yard signs for non-residential in a residential district, but we do not allow for A-frames as a directional for non-residential use in a residential district. I've not noticed that before. So it'd be very easy to make that adjustment if you would like to allow the same A-frame that you'd use if you were a single-family homeowner. The church next door can't do that under the code as it's written. DEMPSTER: Is that the example? So a temporary non-residential and residential would be a church and then -- WESLEY: That's the main one we have. Again, there could be others. The code allows for a few other things. I've looked around, I haven't really seen any of those other types. I believe churches is the main thing. KOVACEVIC: So would an example of this be the DC Bar & Grill at Desert Canyon Club House, where they've got their A-frame sign down on Saguaro -- WESLEY: No. KOVACEVIC: -- directing? WESLEY: No. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 61 KOVACEVIC: No? WESLEY: That's commercial. So the DC Grill is in a commercial zone that's all one property and so it's on the same property. KOVACEVIC: They have a directional sign down on -- WESLEY: Right. It's an A-frame sign. KOVACEVIC: An A-frame on -- WESLEY: Right. KOVACEVIC: -- Saguaro? WESLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: That they don't pick up. KOVACEVIC: Ever. WESLEY: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: Well, so what's an example? I mean, that's a nonresidential -- WESLEY: So -- KOVACEVIC: -- sign in a residential -- WESLEY: Right. So again, some of the churches over here along Fountain Hills Boulevard. KOVACEVIC: The vacation bible school. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Um-hum. WESLEY: Yeah. They're going to have that or they're going to have some fall festival at the church on the weekend. And so they can do yard signs but they couldn't do an A- frame sign. The neighbor next door holding the garage sale in the same zoning district could have an A-frame sign or a yard sign. With the way it's written today, the church couldn't have the A-frame sign. CHAIRMAN GRAY: If we're going to allow the yard sign, we have to permit the A-frame sign? KOVACEVIC: I would think so. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. WESLEY: So make that change? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 61 KOVACEVIC: Yes. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. WESLEY: Any other questions about temporary signs for -- WATTS: This is what -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts would like to -- WATTS: -- this is what happens when you stay up too late reading this stuff, you focus on balloons. The height of the balloon; when you look at the size of the balloon, to me, was an obstruction of line of sight. So I think it was six feet -- two feet from the top of a foot sign, six feet, doesn't delineate whether or not it's the top of the balloon or the bottom of the balloon, that's one. Two, I think it should be higher and it should be at the bottom. Sorry. You know, I'm telling you. This is what happens when it's too late at night. So I think it should be higher so it doesn't obstruct view. WESLEY: Good point. WATTS: Just as a point, okay? WESLEY: And so will -- WATTS: There was no music with that so this -- WESLEY: -- will the commission have a challenge if we make some change, probably, I don't know, is eight feet too low, because I can still tap it. So if I go back and look, I think the clear zone for a parking lot, no landscaping above three or below seven, so there's that gap. So if I say the balloon has to be at least -- bottom of the balloon is seven and the top of it ten, some range like that, would that work? WATTS: Yeah. WESLEY: Clarify that. Is the Commission okay with the clarification on that with balloons? WATTS: Okay. I'm going to stop asking questions too because -- WESLEY: Oh, no. More importantly, we need the answers, not just the questions. So any other comments here? Okay. Single family. So really single family itself, your single-family house has no permanent signage allowed except for maybe an address, but that's not even really covered here. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 61 Subdivisions, though, do have allowances for the wall signs and the monument signs. Otherwise, temporary signs in single family, the A-frames as directionals, flags, post and board, and the yard signs. I believe that's it. Any questions about temporary signs for single family? Okay. So that's a summary of the draft code. We've learned some good things this evening for some modifications and then we can go back and make -- hopefully Paula's keeping real good notes over there so when we get to the end we can summarize them. But then we can make those adjustments and go forward to Council. So with that I've got a few things I do want to go ahead and discuss a little bit more with you, and again, we have the full code below that we can go through as we need to. So just wanted to go -- again, just to remind the Council and anybody -- or the Commission and anybody who may watch this in the future about the challenge that comes along with allowing signs in the right of way under read since we can't address content. So here's a street view of local business here in town. Sign's perfectly fine per code today and with the draft code. Under the new code, because we'd be allowing A-frame signs in the right of way, by right they could move that sign out just during the daylight hours. It's in a commercial district so they could do that and move it out there a little closer to the curb, a little bit more visible, and that would be no problem. They could potentially do two signs because we're allowing two A-frames if you have two public entries. I don't know if this business does. I've been in there once. I don't remember if they have a second public entry or not, but if they have two public entries, they could have two. But it's a total of nine square feet, so one of these would actually have to be a little bit smaller. But we could also have this sign in the right of way -- could have this sign in the right of way and that would be perfectly legal under the proposed code. Public square within the right of way, once we start saying A-frames are allowed or any temporary signs allowed in the right of way, we can't judge the message, and so it could be that. So before when it was two signs clearly identified with the adjacent business, we could go to the business and say, mmm, wait a minute, one of these is too big, or you don't have two entries, you've got to get rid of one. In this scenario, where one of the signs TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 61 really isn't theirs, so we can't go to them and say, you know, what's this extra sign doing here. That would be allowed. Or if they did have their other sign, it was small enough and met the criteria, that kind of situation. So just want to remind the Commission that when we allow signs in the right of way, perfectly fine, but there will be some enforcement challenges that go with that, some education that will have to go with that about what you can and can't do with those signs. CHAIRMAN GRAY: You first. WATTS: This goes back to one of my general questions. I think that as part of the sign process in total every sign ought to have identifiers on it who the owner of that sign is, contact information, whether it's A-frame or whatever it might be. That way code enforcement can look at the back of these signs, doesn't have to be on the front but on the back, and then they'll know if that guys' got three signs there and he's only supposed to have two, but it'll have some contact information for whatever the reason, education or discouragement. So it's just a general comment one of -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- many. WESLEY: Right. Chair, Vice Chair, and certainly that would be helpful. It'd be good if they did. I'm not sure that we can require it because we can't require any content or judge a sign by its content. We can't have it removed if it's an otherwise legal sign just because it doesn't have contact information on it. WATTS: Can't we have it as a QR code or a -- WESLEY: It -- WATTS: -- bar code something -- WESLEY: -- doesn't matter -- WATTS: -- on the back? WESLEY: -- doesn't matter how it's done. If we say an A-frame sign is allowed in that location, an A-frame sign's allowed in that location regardless of what's on it or not on it. It would be helpful and we can encourage it, but we couldn't remove it simply TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 61 because it didn't have that information on it if it was otherwise legally there. WATTS: And they don't have to have a permit for it so we don't have it on their application. WESLEY: Correct. WATTS: Okay. If we can't do it, we can't do it. But it seems to me common sense would say -- WESLEY: It should make it easier as we're going to talk about in just a moment as we talk about enforcement. WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: Because our first choice is always going to be to try to educate to tell somebody, you know, pick up your sign, relocate your sign, help them learn how to do it correctly. And when there's no contact information on there, it gets very difficult to do. So it'd certainly be in their interest to put it on there to simplify it for everybody, and so we can certainly encourage it. CHAIRMAN GRAY: John, we talked I think a month ago about limiting the -- yeah, in the multiple sign scenario, limiting to one sign per elevation. Was that deemed unenforceable or nonviable? WESLEY: Chairman, so yes. Again, once we get out on the right of way and we say an A- frame, a yard sign, a post and board sign is allowed, we can't address the content. And so anybody could put a sign in that location. We can't limit it to a business or a number of business. And once we start trying to do that and say, okay, we're only going to allow, you know, one sign per, you know, 50 feet or whatever, we come out and we find three, whose are the legal ones and which one is not the legal one? CHAIRMAN GRAY: It's an unlikely scenario but it sure could make a mess of things. WESLEY: Right. And yes. So I guess I want to come back there too. I'm glad you said it that way. So we want to make sure that it's just generally understood that there will be, can be, I guess maybe I should say instead of will be. There can be enforcement challenges. For the most part we don't think there will be that many most of the time for a couple of reason that we'll talk about more in a minute, particularly with the A- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 61 frames. They're a little bit expensive. People are going to use them responsibly and we certainly want to facilitate providing that signage for businesses that need it. Trying not to be overly dramatic or try to paint a picture, you know, things are going to be terrible. Just want to make sure it's out there that there will be some challenges that we think we can address them. And that's why, as I've looked at it, I've come back to and put in the code the requirement for they're only allowed sunrise to sunset. We've talked to the code enforcement officers about their ability to enforce that and they feel like it's something they can do reasonably. And so people will learn quickly that if they're out there and they get confiscated, that they won't want to do that again because they won't necessarily get it back right away. Legitimate businesses will learn to take their signs in at night and it'll all be fine. And those people who are just out junking up the streets with signs that they don't care about will learn that's not going to work, is what we hope. So with that, let's talk a little bit more about enforcement. So we had discussion a little bit last month, or last time we talked, the concern about the cluttering and what the enforcement options were. That caused me to go back and look again at section 6.04 and 6.05. They've always been a little bit odd and clunky because they cover different aspects of enforcement and penalties and so forth. So we took this opportunity to combine them into one and clarify them so that part of it deals with permit signs, the other part deals with temporary signs, because they're kind of cluttered together right now. And also changed the fine structure. I thought I put that there. Did I put it someplace else? I'm going to go down here. Well, I guess I didn't. So I thought I had updated this section right here to remind you what the difference was in the fees. Currently in the code, if we ever got to the point of issuing a citation for a temporary sign, which we haven't, it would be $50 fee for first offence, $100 for second, $250 for a third offense. That seemed a little low. Most all of the rest of our zoning ordinance references Section 1-8-3 of the town code for fees, for penalties. And so my suggestion was that we do the same thing here and reference that same fine structure instead of having something separate. That starts at $250 and goes up from there. Maybe that's TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 61 too big of a step. May want to go back to what it is today or something in between. Certainly open to that. But that's what I did here for discussion purposes was reference the other section like we did on other portions of the zoning ordinance. So with regard to enforcement on permanent signs, there's really no significant change there. I just kind of reordered the language in the code to put it all together. With regard to temporary, both per the code and then through our operating policy that we have, and I put in a little bit more clearly in the staff report our first choice is always to try to educate, relocate, return signs, help people learn what they can do. Where we have maybe we don't have the information on the sign to know who it goes to, or where it goes to, or because of previous issues, confiscate is the next choice. From there, if we really have a repeat offender, notice of violation, ultimately to a citation, are the choices that we would have. In my four years here, we've not gotten past the confiscation and return of a sign. Doesn't mean it won't happen at some point in the future, but people usually figure it out, and want to comply, and we'll go from there. We are talking about in part of that confiscation process, again, it was in the report, getting a little bit more formal in the return procedures to discourage somebody, okay, well, I'll put it out today, and they'll pick it up, and they'll give it back to me the next day, and I'll put it out the next day. We'll set probably two times a month during a couple hours, your sign was picked up, here's the time you can come pick it up, and it'll be a couple weeks later. And so again, that'll be that discouragement for somebody that's not a legitimate actor to really try to follow the code with the signs. So any questions about that? SCHLOSSBERG: I've got a comment if I may, John. Kudos to the code enforcement because that was my big concern about are they really going to be able to enforce it. But several of my neighbors have received notice of violation, and basically that's all it took for them to realize they're going to lose their sign if they don't comply. So I think whoever's stepping it up on the code enforcement side is doing a pretty good job. So -- WESLEY: Thank you. SCHLOSSBERG: -- just a comment. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yeah. Just my thoughts around I know we wanted to track them from having to get to the place where the sign is confiscated. But I think you said it was like two weeks later they'd be able to pick it up, maybe two days of the month. It just sounds to me like they may want to come get their sign sooner, so that seems kind of limited. I think we might want to open that up and make it a little more flexible for them to come get their signs. And is it -- just thinking out loud here. They can't just come -- there's not a collection place where they can come and get it any time, they have to make an appointment? WESLEY: So currently that's what happens and the way it's been. We contact them, we've got your sign, or they realize it's a gone and contact us, see if we have it, and we'll say yes, and figure out a time, and come get it. So we hold onto it for a day, maybe hold onto it for a week. I know we've had some signs for months because some of the people don't care. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: But the proposal is, and this is proposal, and it would be administrative policy and not ordinance provision, is that we formalize it. COREY: Um-hum. WESLEY: And our proposal is that it is just a couple of days a month. So it's part of that discouragement for putting out signs that aren't really legitimate. COREY: Um-hum. WESLEY: Again, the business side, somebody that's running a legitimate business is going to figure it out and they're going to want their sign. And they're going to take it in at night if it's out of the right of way. You know, done it once -- COREY: Um-hum. WESLEY: -- and they couldn't get their sign back for two weeks -- COREY: Okay. WESLEY: -- they'll probably figure it out and they won't want to -- COREY: Right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 61 WESLEY: -- do that again. COREY: What -- WESLEY: Verses -- COREY: -- what are they going to use in the interim of that two weeks? I think my suggestion would be maybe to give them a little bit more of a window to pick that up if they need it. WESLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Maybe -- WESLEY: But again -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- maybe on first offenses or -- WESLEY: Yeah. It wouldn't be a first offense when we -- again, for legitimate business that's right there, we can identify who it is. COREY: Um-hum. WESLEY: We can go tell them first. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: And before we ever confiscate it, it's going to be a second or third time before we ever confiscate it. COREY: Yeah. It just sounds like they'll have to remember what day of the month is it that I can go get this. Maybe it would be easier to say, hey, Wednesdays at noon or something, whatever. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Is it code enforcement that does the redistribution? WESLEY: Yes. CHAIRMAN GRAY: So it's also about labor -- WESLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- labor availability and opportunity costs, what else they can do. So I agree. I mean, there's a balance, but I think the first offenders should probably get a little more help along the way. WESLEY: Sure. We agree. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 61 WATTS: Yeah, no. I agree with the staffing issues. I agree with two days a month and for two hours there's a window of opportunity to come collect your sigh. But I really do want to emphasize again the educational component, if you can find the owner. And then maybe kind of like the -- who is it that does the -- passports, they have an expedite fee. So if you wanted to add an expedite fee that said, look, you've been an offender and you want your sign back, so it's a $50 fee for somebody to open up and get you your fee. Something along those lines. So that's one. The other thing is that there were two words throughout this chapter that drove me -- that made it difficult for me to understand. Permitted and permitted were used interchangeably. Some signs are permitted in a certain area and other signs need to be permitted. How about allowed and permitted. So I'm going to go off this topic for a second and get these two off before -- and fines and fees. So when there is a confiscation it's really not a fee at that point, it's a fine. WESLEY: Um-hum. WATTS: So I'd really like to see those two words changed and maybe add an expedited fee for the habitual offenders if they're really serious and they want it. I sympathize with somebody that had their sign confiscated. And to Commissioner Corey's example, you should make some accommodation somehow, but that shouldn't be at the expense of town staff and the resources. WESLEY: Okay. Good points. Thank you. Anything else on this topic? Okay. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Who's had the most signs confiscated in town? WESLEY: I don't know. So but Vice Chair Watts, you are keeping track of all these changes so you can help Paula later with the motion, right? WATTS: It's being recorded, right? WESLEY: Okay. So my last thing before maybe see if we have public comments and if there's any other details to go through, is we did receive an email from a citizen that had some good comments and ideas, and I'll summarize some of those here. There were a few references that they noted that need to be fixed. We'll certainly do that. They suggested that it might be helpful to have a definition of right of way so people know TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 61 that it's some place behind the curb. And so we can add that definition, but I've got to have it worked out exactly, but that the signs -- anyway. There's a space there from the curb back to the property line, and that's the right of way, and you can't put the sign there. They want us to look at additional ways maybe to clarify election signage. And so that was one of the topics that was almost floated earlier from 6.07, so this is maybe a chance here to talk about that and a little bit more. But I'll go onto these others first and we can come back to that one. The other residential signs, which are, again, the yard-sale, garage-sale signs. He had a little bit of challenge of where it was in the code. I thought about that and to me it still works pretty well, although there is an opportunity maybe just to move it up into just the other sign types. We can consider that if the commission has some ideas or thoughts if that would be better. Did point out that because the yard sign allowance was changed to two per property, that when we get down to residential directional signs it says you can have one on your property plus five more. Well, really, they could have two yard signs to begin with, so that didn't exactly match. And so we could adjust that and the same would really go then, I would guess, if you're going to allow two yard signs you're allowed two A-frames on the property. So we'd look at that. And then also had a point that maybe wasn't clear about medians, the prohibition on medians that would make it clear that's all medians, not just center medians, but side medians. So that would be, again, an easy change to make. So -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: Can I ask, all of the slip roads along -- I think they're just along Saguaro, do we consider that -- DEMPSTER: And Palisades. WESLEY: And Palisades also? WESLEY: Yeah. There are a few on Fountain Hills Boulevard too. But anyway. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Do we consider the curb between the slip road and the main arterial there, is that considered a median as well? WESLEY: I would call that a side road median as opposed to -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 40 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: -- median-median, I guess. But yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner? COREY: On section -- can I refer to section? I just had -- WESLEY: You can. COREY: -- a comment. WESLEY: Go ahead. COREY: I can. It's 6.08 A 1. WESLEY: Okay. COREY: And it's mentioning -- I believe it's in reference to A-frame. WESLEY: Yes. That is A-frames. COREY: Okay. Allow sign on sidewalk, and I think it ended there. I don't know. That might be an opportunity just to make sure that it is not blocking someone's, you know, walking, if somebody's walking by, just to make sure that we speak to the safety element there. WESLEY: So E III 2 D shall be placed on public sidewalk except Town Center, where there's at least four feet clear passage around at least one side. COREY: Okay. I must've missed that part. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I think we had to do an (indiscernible) discussion on that. COREY: Okay. And then one more, John. It was on 6.05, it was just a wording. The temporary signs as are and as many. Wasn't sure if that was how you intended to write that or -- WESLEY: Sure is. It sounds like the way I'd write something. 6.04, temporary sign 6.04 B. So where -- COREY: 6.05 temporary signs. WESLEY: 6.05 is now reserved. DEMPSTER: He took it out. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: So -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 41 of 61 COREY: So it may be in a new spot. WESLEY: We took 6.04 and 6.05 and combined them and call it all 6.04, and 6.05 is now -- COREY: Okay. WESLEY: -- reserved -- COREY: Maybe I could find it here. WESLEY: -- for future use. If you see it later let me know because certainly any typos we could -- COREY: Yeah. Well, I'm just going to do a control-F here and -- WESLEY: Okay. COREY: -- see where it is. Okay. It is still here. It's right above temporary signs. WESLEY: Okay. So -- COREY: It's in 6.4 WESLEY: Uh-huh. A 4? COREY: A D, 4 D. WESLEY: 4 D. COREY: Yeah. Town shall have such other remedies as are and as many. WESLEY: And as many sometimes (indiscernible) provided for. Yeah. Okay. I don't know if that maybe needs some commas, but -- COREY: Is that right? I don't know. WESLEY: I think it is. An attorney wrote it, so it's got to be right. COREY: As are and as many, that's correct? Okay. Okay. WESLEY: Okay. COREY: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I want to jump back to the fines for a moment. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: That 250 for the first offense I think is a little bit aggressive. WESLEY: Okay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 42 of 61 WATTS: I would support something like 100 for the first, 250 for the second, and then whatever we come up with for the third. But the first one, you know, even with education and so on, people can still err, and that's significant enough punishment, I think, at $100 as opposed to 250. That's pretty aggressive. CHAIRMAN GRAY: But at that point though you've been spoken to, you've been confiscated, and then you're fined. I mean -- WATTS: 250 though? KOVACEVIC: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: It's dinner at the Saddle Bronc. WATTS: I don't think so. Well, when you put it in that terms, okay. And then we're going to talk about the political signs as well? WESLEY: Yeah. So before we go on, I just want to make sure, leave it as it is? We'd agree (indiscernible) -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: I don't know. WESLEY: -- idea. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I mean, let's discuss it. I just think if you get there, you ought to be in the realm of feeling it a little bit but -- COREY: That's at your third warning? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Well, yeah. If you assume you've been talked to, and then you've been confiscated and waited your two weeks, and then you hit your first tier of fines. I mean, you'd be in detention long before that if you're in school. WATTS: Maybe that's why I like the lower price. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Almost seems like you're intending to offend. WATTS: Okay. I'm okay with it then. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I think -- WATTS: From that perspective, I understand -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- I think it ends up -- WATTS: -- what you're saying. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- being so discretionary anyway. You said no one's been fined in TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 43 of 61 four years? WESLEY: Not the four years I've been here, no, we've not had any -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: If Larry Meyers hasn't been fined, nobody's getting fined. COREY: This is true. WESLEY: They work with you. Okay. So maybe go back to 6.07 and some of the prohibited sign locations and elections signs. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. I think and I'll -- do you have anything? No? Nothing else on the last one? I think that 6.07, you know, there's mixed feelings on it certainly, but I think that for clarity sake, I think we really ought to just have that simplified in any election -- you know, this book applies to any election, not just -- WESLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- those with a primary. WESLEY: Okay. Yeah. So 6.07, where are we at, B 2 A 3, this gets so far down there. This kind of says allowed by state statutes during elections. Are you saying we put a comma there including those without primaries? Do that and that should make that clearer. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Those that have primaries? WESLEY: Without. WATTS: Without. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. So that would account for like the Sanitary District, obviously the school district, which is the -- WESLEY: Yeah, right. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- hot topic today, et cetera. Okay. I think that that -- WESLEY: So that's a simple -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- that would clean it up. WESLEY: -- that's a simple add. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. WESLEY: Yeah. WATTS: Would it be simple enough just to say it should match the state statutes? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 44 of 61 WESLEY: Yeah. So basically -- KOVACEVIC: That's what it does say. WESLEY: -- that's what we're saying, is the state's -- WATTS: The same thing? WESLEY: -- statute would apply to any election not just those with primaries. WATTS: Right. Any initiative -- WESLEY: Yeah. WATTS: -- any election -- WESLEY: Yes. WATTS: -- and so on? WESLEY: Yeah. WATTS: The other thing in 6.07, if I may, okay? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Well, do I have an option? WATTS: No. Add distributors and contractors pursuant to like the Arizona Registrar of Contractors when we have -- there's disclosure on advertisements. It's 6.07 B 2 D WESLEY: Okay. B 2 D. Okay. WATTS: And then I have a question on C 3 G, but let's start with B 2 D. WESLEY: Okay. Is there a question? WATTS: Just a comment about adding distributors and contractors. There's a list of manufacturers -- WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: -- and so on. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: Just to make sure -- WESLEY: All right. All right. WATTS: -- that everybody's -- WESLEY: Now I get what you're saying. Okay. WATTS: Okay? WESLEY: So to I, add the -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 45 of 61 WATTS: Yes. WESLEY: I'll get it off the -- WATTS: Off the recording. WESLEY: -- recording what you said. WATTS: Right. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: Thank you. WESLEY: Got it. WATTS: And then I'm curious, C 3 G, was this pulled out of the International Building Codes, the electrical code for nits and candelas as opposed to lumens. All of a sudden we're changing something from the standard building code, and nits are -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: I don't know what a nit is. WESLEY: Measure of light. WATTS: It's a 3.4-plus lumen. So 100 nits equals 340-plus lumens. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I thought everybody else used lux. WATTS: Okay. And see here we go with the conventional building codes. How did we get over to something that's more on the international building code? And it's just for clarification more than anything else. WESLEY: So again, couple years ago when we were doing that update, worked closely with the Dark Sky -- WATTS: Right. WESLEY: -- committee about what was the best way to do this measurement, and this is what they recommended WATTS: They provided those? They're international measurement, so that's what they did? WESLEY: Right. WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: Based on the measuring devices available that this -- WATTS: Okay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 46 of 61 WESLEY: -- was the best way to go. WATTS: But also in the same area, and I don't think it's in C 3 G, previously we talked about measuring foot-candles at a specific height. Now we're going to measure output based in nits. How are we going to do that when we couldn't do foot-candles before? WESLEY: So I can't answer that with too much specificity or experience. But the first thing we'll start with is this is the current code, that we're moving to the nonconforming section to be able to judge any existing signs because if this gets passed as recommended, we won't have any new ones that aren't already built or permitted. And so this is the standard under which they have been reviewed and approved, and so we're a little bit challenged to change the standard. If it's really the same standard just written a different way, I guess that would be fine. We need to understand it really is the same standard. But I would want to go back to the Dark Sky folks, and the meters that they have, and how they work to understand if a different approach would work just the same. But they were very comfortable with the meters they have, this was the way to do it. WATTS: Yes. And I agree. So it was more of a curiosity question because our building codes, lighting codes, U.S. imperial codes don't reference nits and candelas. So -- and it also takes me back to what we didn't do last time because we could measure foot- candles. We're doing it here but we didn't do it before. So at some point I'd like to go back and figure out where that was so we can measure at 48 above finished floor, or something like that, we have so many foot-candles, which is the same equivalent as nits. So if you can do it here, we should be able to do it there. WESLEY: Right. So again, getting outside my expertise very quickly, but they're really doing two different things as far as measuring the light source versus -- WATTS: Um-hum. WESLEY: -- measuring the 46amination that's on a surface that -- WATTS: Both -- WESLEY: -- comes from a light. WATTS: Yeah. The light source is the lumens and the result into the lumens depending TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 47 of 61 upon elevation is the foot-candle, the effective foot-candles. But if you can do one you can do the other, that's my -- WESLEY: Yeah. WATTS: -- only point, so. WESLEY: Okay. So from here, as far as presentation, I go through each section. I don't necessarily want to do that unless the Commission wants to and I think this would be a good point for any public comments and then see where we want to go -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: John. WESLEY: -- Mr. Chair. CHAIRMAN GRAY: One more if you don't mind. WESLEY: Sure. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I'm trying to find the section number. It's the electronic message board signs. And I know we've -- WESLEY: But that's what -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- deliberated that at length. WESLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Popular or unpopular, I don't know, but I'd like to put back on the table that we prohibit those going -- WESLEY: Right. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- forward. WESLEY: That's what we did. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Is it? I didn't -- WESLEY: Yeah. (Indiscernible). CHAIRMAN GRAY: Is it in there prohibited? WESLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: And then I know everything becomes nonconforming that's in place to date. And we say that, you know, upon them becoming dysfunctional or abandoned, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 48 of 61 I think we said, they would need to cease operation. Is there a time limit of sorts on that? Is it 120 days of abandonment before -- you know, if business A moves out and the property sits empty for three months, does that constitute abandonment and we could seek removal? WESLEY: So the standards are in 6.07 C. So abandoned for a period of six or more continuous months. CHAIRMAN GRAY: What's that? DEMPSTER: Is there in here? CHAIRMAN GRAY: That's where I was looking. I thought it -- okay. That's if it's in disrepair though. You have the option at that point to restore it back to its original. DEMPSTER: Um-hum. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. Okay. And then one other. This is just something new that I happened to notice couple weeks ago driving at night is we're starting to get -- I think they classify as signage because they're designed to attract. We're starting to get rope light chasers in businesses. And I'm curious if -- I don't know if we should or we shouldn't address that here with signage, but it's designed to attract you to the business, right? You're starting to see window frames predominantly along Saguaro that are getting these, you know, multi-colored chaser light schemes that are -- they're hideous. And I think they need to have a big X put through them. I think I'm getting old. COREY: What are you talking about? WESLEY: It's no fun. CHAIRMAN GRAY: The car wash. They got those chase lights everywhere now. They just put them up. COREY: Um-hum. CHAIRMAN GRAY: You've seen them? COREY: Yeah. WESLEY: So in 6.07. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I couldn't find anything. WESLEY: Let's see here. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 49 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. But I guess my question is do eye-catching rope-light chaser sequences fall under electronic messaging? WESLEY: Yeah. That's a bit of a question challenge. But if we look at 6.07 E, I'm not sure what's here either so we're going to learn together. 6.07 E prohibited signs. So neon signs are prohibited. So I don't know if those are neon. CHAIRMAN GRAY: LED. WESLEY: I don't think so. Animated or moving sign, including -- so is that an animated or moving sign? Maybe. It's attention getter and device. CHAIRMAN GRAY: An attention grabber. WESLEY: So we'd have to look at it from that. And so that's probably the only thing we have in here right now that would address that. And so from there we would have to look at 6.02. CHAIRMAN GRAY: What if just say if it spins faster than a barber poll, you can't have it. WESLEY: How about we say if Chairman Gray doesn't like it, you can't have it. CHAIRMAN GRAY: That's fine too. WESLEY: That way we still have it there. So a sign means any device placed to attract attention by providing identification, advertising, or directional information for a business. So -- KOVACEVIC: Number five -- WESLEY: -- questionable. KOVACEVIC: -- in that section, number five says flashing, blinking, or rotating lights. Does that cover it? WESLEY: Okay. Okay. I didn't really know (indiscernible). CHAIRMAN GRAY: The following types of -- WESLEY: Yeah, so that one. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- illumination are prohibited: flashing. DEMPSTER: What section is that? SCHLOSSBERG: So -- KOVACEVIC: It's -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 50 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: It's under -- KOVACEVIC: -- 6.07 E -- or 6.07 F. DAPAAH: F 5. WESLEY: I found illumination part. Yeah, you would have illumination. Okay. DAPAAH: A. WESLEY: Yeah. Particularly, if we added the traveling to that list. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. I think I could -- DEMPSTER: Illuminations, yes. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I think those are the right words but I don't think they were meant to be applied in that manner. So I don't know what the right language is but if we could -- WESLEY: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: -- if we could find a way to tie that down. WESLEY: We'll see what we can do. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Yeah. WESLEY: That's the consensus of the Commission that we look for that? Okay. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I have five easy questions and then I'll sit back. WESLEY: You're supposed to have the answers. Okay. WATTS: I got the answers. We just -- WESLEY: Yeah. WATTS: -- may not agree on the answers. So in 6.03 F. WESLEY: Okay. Let me get there. Okay. So nonconformings. WATTS: Building permit applications for signs shall include sufficient information. I think that's too vague. I think that word should be detailed information. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: That's vague. I mean, if you like me, you're going to pass it with sufficient, and if you don't, you're going to make me jump through hoops. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: Okay. 6.04 4. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 51 of 61 WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: I'm curious as to why the wording was changed from shall to may. I think shall is the appropriate word. WESLEY: Because sometimes that locks us in too much and we don't have the discretion we might need in a given situation. WATTS: But shouldn't it be consistent when you say may, it's you have that ability by administrative right to be able to make discretionary exceptions. WESLEY: That's what the may gives us. If it says shall then we must do one of A, B, C, or D. WATTS: Right. WESLEY: We can't choose an E if it's more appropriate in a given situation. WATTS: Okay. I'm really glad Paula gave this to me early enough to spend so much time on it too. Thank you, Paula. A 6 F, it relates to the sign boards at drive-thru's. WESLEY: Okay. So 6.08. WATTS: Yeah. A 6 F, it seemed to me that the area that's required for those sign board is pretty excessive. A lot of the drive-thru's don't have the room to be able to put the square footage of landscaping in that sign area. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: A 15 E. WESLEY: Well, before you go on -- WATTS: Um-hum. WESLEY: -- does anybody -- do we have agreement we should change that, and if so, what should we change it to? So right now it requires four square feet of -- a minimum of four square feet of landscape area for one-square foot of sign area at the base of the sign. WATTS: And the sign can be four foot, right? Or actually the sign can be more than that. WESLEY: Well, yeah. The sign can be 20 square feet. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 52 of 61 WATTS: 20 square feet. So you got to have 80 square feet of landscape area, which seemed to me to be an awful lot of landscaping for a business for a drive-thru. WESLEY: 4 foot wide, 20 foot long, longer drive-thru aisle. And again -- WATTS: I mean, there's a lot of that. Whether it's something like Filberto's or whether you go through Starbucks, Starbucks has none, Filberto's has scant amount if none. Most of the drive-thru's have limited amounts, if any. So I would think maybe a four by five just to surround the post that holds it in the utility box that provides the power connections. But I wouldn't think 80 square feet would be reasonable for one signboard. So I would recommend 20 square feet, 4 by 5. And I may be the lone ranger on that one. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Well, what's the adjacency, does it say indirect? WATTS: It doesn't. It says -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: The direct adjacency? WESLEY: This says at the base of the sign. WATTS: Yeah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: So it's direct. DEMPSTER: Section this is, please? WATTS: A 6 F. SCHLOSSBERG: Of what? Section of what? WATTS: Oh, what number? SCHLOSSBERG: What number? WESLEY: 6.08 A 6 F. WATTS: Yeah. 6.08. Sorry. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I'm going to leave you on the island on that. WATTS: Thanks. Well, with that I'll go to the next one, which is A 15 E. Virtually every service vehicle these days is a rolling billboard. WESLEY: Right. WATTS: And the 72 hours, I mean, sorry, the 48 hours doesn't even cover the weekends, let alone a weekend that's bumpered by a holiday. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 53 of 61 WESLEY: Right. Let's see here. WATTS: A 15 E. WESLEY: Right. So F ii? I think we did talk about that last time and maybe I missed it because I think we did talk about changing that from 48 to 72, and I -- WATTS: 72? WESLEY: -- I missed that one. WATTS: Yeah. WESLEY: I think we did. WATTS: I thought we did but I wasn't positive. WESLEY: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. I missed that one. WATTS: Okay. And then there's some talk in I think it's 3 I, I threes, the three I's. WESLEY: Right. III. WATTS: About service companies that park their vehicles out front of establishment, are they bound by sign ordinances as well because of the verbiage of that section? WESLEY: So if they left them there beyond the timeframe they would be, but they're typically -- because they're service vehicle's -- they're moving, going to work. WATTS: What do you do if you got a guy on vacation, he parks his truck for a week, you get a fine for that? WESLEY: Yeah. Well, because by the time -- he might get a notice but you're not going to get to a fine for that (indiscernible). WATTS: I think emphasizing, again, the education part of the code enforcement people -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- and some tolerance. WESLEY: Sure. WATTS: You can't put in that you're going to be lenient but the reality is that guys park their trucks, they are rolling billboards, so they should be governed by certain rules. I just don't want to be too punitive. WESLEY: Right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 54 of 61 WATTS: Okay. That's it for me. WESLEY: Well, okay. CHAIRMAN GRAY: All right. Paula, speaker cards? WOODWARD: Chairman, there are two speaker cards. The first speaker is Betsy LaVoie. CHAIRMAN GRAY: And it's not even 8 o'clock. LAVOIE: I know. Just barely. Good evening. I'm Betsy LaVoie, 44-year Fountain Hills resident. CEO and president of the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce. I want to be here as a resource. For you as Commissioners, if you have questions about the almost 600 members that we represent and our business, I'd like to be able to answer questions as best as I can. So if there's anything you can think. I know when you were talking about the developers and the 9 units versus 20 units, and for all decisions you're making, try to put yourself in their shoes. If you are a developer, you want your building to look beautiful, you don't want it to look cluttered. You're going to adhere it to the space on your building that attracts people to your building. Like always think of the business or the developer. They want their business to look in the best light, for the most part. Also I wanted to share that while we advocate for a more flexible ordinance, we remain committed to preserving our Fountain Hills character. Like I said, 44-year resident. I do believe that when we often ask for a more permissive sign ordinance people think that we want a cluttered town. We don't. The example that John gave is unlikely that we would have an example like that by Desert Title and Tag. It's unlikely that we'll have four signs like that. It might happen. Hopefully code enforcement can take care of it. But again, for those of us who are residents and business owners here in town, we also want to maintain the beauty of our town. I also want to share that 50-plus years ago when McCullah put in the fountain, he put it in as a destination location. Whenever I mentioned Fountain Hills as a destination location, I have residents who say, no, we're not, we don't want visitors. It was our mission then, it is our mission now, to attract people to our town. We should use that as an asset with the right signage allowing our tourists, our visitors, and our residents to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 55 of 61 find our experiences here in town, to find our locations, to find our businesses, to find our attractions. And not only will this enhance their experience but it'll encourage them to explore and patronize more establishments here in town. Keep in mind that our primary source of income is sales tax from our businesses, so we should be supporting everything we can for their prosperity. The Arizona Sign Association shared with me that for a destination location, Fountain Hills is the worst in the state for way finding signage and for our previous sign ordinance. So I applaud you for making it more permissive to get on the right track and I hope that our Council will also look towards better way finding signage. And I do have more talking points. I have to pick up my son from football so I'm not going to go through those. I'm going to give those all to you if that's allowable, Chairman. And for Mr. Schlossberg, yours does not have my card on it because you have all my info. So if you have any questions (indiscernible). Most of you have (indiscernible). No questions? WOODWARD: Next speaker is Larry Meyers. CHAIRMAN GRAY: John, did you do your own photoshopping for Desert Title or did somebody else do that for you? WESLEY: (Indiscernible). MR. MEYERS: Chair, new Vice Chair, Commissioner, Commissioners, Larry Meyers. Undisputed heavy weight sign confiscation champion of Fountain Hills. First of all, I support what John did, what John wrote tonight. Two things I came here for were to clear up the political first amendment sign portion of this, to make sure we weren't going to get anymore electronic signs in a Dark Sky community. But one thing did pop into my head while we were talking, so and I'll just name him. Mr. Tolis's 40-foot billboard that's parked along Saguaro Boulevard for a business that supplies no revenue to the town. Town gets no revenue from mortgage business. That part of the vehicle wrap that y'all were talking about, because that's the most egregious sign in the entire town. And I watched code enforcement take down poor McDonald's TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 56 of 61 now-hiring sign because their permit ran out. Hopefully they get a new one because they obviously need help, and they're a business, and they do supply us with revenue because we get the sales tax from the burgers they sell. So hopefully that vehicle wrap thing sort of gets addressed there with people like that and otherwise good job. Could've been one page though. Good night. CHAIRMAN GRAY: No more speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. CHAIRMAN GRAY: All right. Let's go ahead and close the public hearing. Get in the business of confiscating RVs? Commissioners, any final comments, suggestions? Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: I have one more question, John. Do we currently have any electronic message center signs in for approval currently? WESLEY: We did have a couple that inquired about them hearing this may happen, but apparently they haven't actually submitted any permits. So -- DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. WESLEY: -- so they would still have -- so assuming this goes forward to Council with a positive recommendation tonight, it'll be on their October 17th -- is that Tuesday -- agenda for their action. Assuming they approve that night, 30 days from then it goes into effect. So there's still this window where somebody could submit a permit before it goes into effect but right now there are none. DEMPSTER: Thank you. And just a thought. When you started with the slides by category, that was so much easier to follow, but I don't want to complicate things. But you know, that was clear and concise because, you know, someone that isn't looking for, you know, construction or commercial, is looking on the residential side or temporary signs, it's clear and concise, it could go right to that section. So I don't know if that could be used. I don't know. Just a suggestion. WESLEY: Thank you. We will. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Well, I just want to say kudos to Mr. Steve Thomas who wrote the email TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 57 of 61 today. His comments were much appreciated. The corrections, I mean, he went through -- had to go through that thing in great detail to pull out the corrections he did. And so I just wanted to say kudos to him. WESLEY: Yes, it was very helpful. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I got a list of spelling corrections that I could give you later but other than that, I think it was great job and I appreciate it. And I agree with Commissioner Dempster that it was much easier to follow this than even the redline, and the redline was a huge improvement from what we got a year ago. So that's a great benefit. This might make it even easier by putting it under a category so people can go directly to it and see it. So thank you very much for the effort. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioners, I think we're ready to be done with signs. DEMPSTER: Hallelujah. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Open mic night for recommendation? DEMPSTER: Motion? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Motion? Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: I'll make a motion, gladly. I move to approve ordinance 23-04 repealing and replacing zoning ordinance chapter 6, sign regulations. CHAIRMAN GRAY: With amendment or as stipulated? DEMPSTER: Well, we made -- with the discussion that we had this evening with recommendations for changes. WATTS: I second. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Dempster has made a motion to forward a recommendation to approve with annotations from this evening's discussion, that, John, I assume you'll take off of the verbatim transcript. Commissioner Watts has seconded. Paula, roll call vote, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 58 of 61 DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? CHAIRMAN GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Seven-zero. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Thank you, John. All right let's see. Agenda item 8, Commission discussion/request for research to staff. Commissioners, anything for John or Farhad? Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yeah. Just one thing. Betsy reminded of the way finding. I was just curious where we were on the way finding. Weren't we thinking about updating -- WESLEY: Chair, Commissioner -- COREY: -- that a while ago? WESLEY: -- so yes. Unfortunately, again, I can't give you absolute detail. Farhad, I don't know if you're up to date on it. But there was some way finding signage that the town hired a contractor for several years ago and got most of the way through the process, got set aside. Public Works director has picked that back up and has been working with a contractor and I know he said he's getting close, but that's as close as I can get to telling you, you know, where he is in that project. And Paula, I don't know if you've heard from him in your dealings with him, but -- WOODWARD: It's in progress. WESLEY: But they are working with a contractor. They had to go back and redo some of the design work because it wasn't finished, and stamped, and so forth. But they're TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 59 of 61 someplace close to getting all that done so we can get those signs. COREY: Okay. And then that'll come back to us? WESLEY: Not that I know of. I don't know why it would. We're talking about the same just general town way-finding signs. COREY: Yeah, yeah. Oh, that never came to us? Okay. WESLEY: Yeah. It may have. I don't know because that was before my time when that was originally done. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: But -- CHAIRMAN GRAY: Was it monument signs or way -- it was monument signs couple years ago. DEMPSTER: There was an open house, and yeah, it did make the circuit, and there was an open house at the community center. WESLEY: Yeah. That's my understanding. DEMPSTER: But it's -- WESLEY: It was good output or outreach at that time to develop the signs. But they were designed and so it's been a matter of getting the actual construction drawings done. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Yes. In support of our economic structure and her plan that was presented and approved at town council, just want to put it out there if there is anything proactive we can do with zoning to support that plan in the future. WESLEY: And if it, you know, and I guess the concept or the strategy has been approved by Council, and they were going back from some of the implementation steps and budget things, but there are several things in there that will likely come back through the Commission as we work on implementation. COREY: Great. Thank you. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Yeah. I thought the economic plan that was presented was initially in a draft TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 60 of 61 format with some edits to be done, and so there had to be some -- I don't know way to put it -- changes to it, but fundamentally it's correct. And so I was looking forward to seeing it come back. I tried to find it on the website and I could not. So that's why I think it's not in final format, it's just in draft. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Now you've done it. WATTS: Uh-oh. I thought that was my last question but maybe not. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Hello, Commissioners. So Council approved the final draft. It is not a draft. It was proposed but they did approve it unanimously last week. We'll make sure it's easy to find on the website. As Mr. Wesley mentioned, we'll be bringing forth our implementation strategy on November 2nd, that is a Thursday. That will be a mini-council retreat. And so we'll highlight what we're proposing as short term, midterm, long term, ongoing. And we'll, of course, that afternoon, morning, we'll elevate the short term just to make sure we're on the right track, and that Council's aware of anything that has a price tag. And a couple of those, as Mr. Wesley mentioned, will definitely become before this body. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Thank you much. WATTS: Thank you. CHAIRMAN GRAY: You had three requests, John. That's more than you've ever had. WESLEY: I feel quite honored. CHAIRMAN GRAY: I feel honored. All right. Let's invert it. Requests from John. WESLEY: My request of you is to go forth and have a good rest of your week. I was checking with Farhad, we don't have any applications that have come in for an October meeting. There is a slight chance I'll have a text amendment for you to consider. I'm not sure at this point I'm going to be able to make the final tweaks to it to get it advertised for that month, so we may not see you until November. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: If you can stand that. CHAIRMAN GRAY: It might come back, Commissioner. All right. Anything else, John? WESLEY: No. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS SEPTEMBER 11, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 61 of 61 CHAIRMAN GRAY: All right. Thank you very much. We're adjourned.