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HomeMy WebLinkAbout230814 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 39 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes August 14, 2023 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 39 GRAY: All right, let's go ahead and call this meeting to order. This is the August 14th, 2023 version of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission. If you would, please, rise for the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which is stands, one nation, under God, individual, with liberty and justice for all. GRAY: All right, Paula, roll call please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey. Commissioner -- COREY: Here. WOODWARD: -- oh, thank you. Commissioner Depaah. DAPAAH: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster. Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg. SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray. GRAY: Here. Thank you, Paula. Agenda item 3, Call to the Public. Paula, any public speaking cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Thank you. Agenda item 4, Consideration and Possible Action on the regular meeting minutes from the June 12th, 2023. Commissioners, any conversation or a motion, please? WATTS: I move to approve as submitted. KOVACEVIC: I'll second. GRAY: All in favor. ALL: Aye. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 39 WOODWARD: Six, zero. GRAY: Thank you. And with record speed, we reach Agenda item number 5, Public Hearing, Consideration for a special use permit to allow seven apartments in a C-C zoning district on three lots at 16830 East Pueblo Boulevard. Mr. Wesley. WESLEY: Commissioners, good to see you again. I hope you enjoyed your time off in July. It's cooled off a little bit, maybe, not sure. So welcome this evening, and I'll go through the background the review of this application you have this evening. So as you know, the zoning ordinance provides a list of uses permitted by right in each zoning district. Residential uses are allowed in commercial zoning districts only through approval of a special use permit. So an application has been made for a special use permit to allow residential at the corner of El Pueblo and Ivory, just north of that. This shows the area in question. The area outlined in red is plat 106, which has a C-C Common Commercial zoning designation. Again, the request is for the SUP for residential in the hatched area. A little background on this. We reviewed this a couple of times recently so I'll go over it fairly quickly, but just as a reminder, the area started developing initially with the building that faces El Pueblo there in kind of the middle there on the south end. And the part immediately east, that started back in 1970s. It's developed, as you can see, very slowly. The current configuration was in existence in 2004, and there's really been no change, the actual building, since that time. Today is like it was in 2004. The total area of lots in the -- we're going to focus on the eastern part of the area here. Let's see here if this -- the area here to the east, as I guess, on the rest of this discussion. So over here on this eastern portion, if you add up the lots available, it's over 41,000 square feet of area. There are 113 parking spaces in that eastern area. If you use the general office retail one per 250 square feet, that could result in up to 28,250 square feet of building area within those 42,000 square feet. There'd be less area if you get more restaurants which have a higher parking requirement or similar uses. Currently, there's about 13,700 square feet of building area that's been built in that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 39 area. Over the last year or so, we've approved some other use permits. One was about four or five years ago. That two-story building just north of the restaurant there off of El Longo, little square, that was approved with a special use permit to allow second floor residential in that building. It occurred for a short while; that owner has now sold to a new owner. It's our understanding that the new owner is not planning to continue that residential use. You approved, a little over a year ago, the special use permit at the corner of Ivory and El Pueblo for a ground floor office and indoor parking and then second floor for apartment units. We have been reviewing, and I think approved the building permit. Is that approved? WESLEY: Close, okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. WESLEY: So it -- so development now has been approved for that. And then up at the northwest corner of this development, corner of Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard, that's been approved for ten residential units through a special use permit on that lot. So folks, and then on this specific request, there are three lots that are platted there. They're proposing to combine those and build seven three-bedroom dwelling units. Six of the units have two-car garages. The one on the eastern end has a one-car garage. So the lot area is a little over 11,000, almost 12,000 square feet. And using just these lots, the density at 7 units would be a little over 25 dwelling units right here. We'll talk about that a little bit more a little bit later on. The floor plan shows the ground floor on the right side there with a kitchen, dining, living area, garage. That upstairs has the three bedrooms and a couple of baths. The elevations, so 25 feet of height building mass along the parking and alley to the north and the narrow sides towards the streets. So the staff reviewed this. As usual, we start with Genera Plan and what would it suggest pro and con about the proposal. We are looking for a broad range of housing types and densities in the community. However, we also project the highest densities TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 39 are -- want to encourage the highest densities to be in the town center area and along the Shae Corridor. This particular character area is designated as a mixed-use neighborhood. So it anticipates having some smaller lots and a mix of nonresidential uses with the residential. Kind of also have the multi-residence as part of it. We encourage redevelopment and infill in a manner that's consistent with the small town character and supports the existing neighborhood and will foster long-term viability of the area. The zoning ordinance, in Section 2.02 lists the criteria for the Commission to consider with reviewing of a special use permit. The key pieces in there are that the use permit request should not be detrimental to the public health, safety, peace, comfort or welfare of persons. And not detrimental or injurious to property or improvements in the area or the general welfare of the town. So then looking specifically at this request and taking those criteria, staff identified three main points to look at. Will allowing the residential use be detrimental or to desired commercial use activity in this particular area? So it had no new commercial building occur since 2003, 2004. Over, generally speaking for the community, we are over zoned for commercial uses. And having additional residential can add residence in an area to support an existing commercial. So those are some of the pro reasons for moving forward and approving the special use permit. We also have some concerns that this much additional residential in this location would discourage further nonresidential development. That it could be a detriment to continuing the commercial use at all in this area. And residence may impede that additional development of the lots. Will allowing residential use be detrimental to surrounding residential neighborhood? So the proposed building in this zoning district can be up to 25 feet tall. The adjacent residential zoning district allows 30-foot-tall buildings. So in that regard, the building is not maybe quite as big as the others could be. But staff has concern with the overall building mass being proposed with this building. It's about 150 feet long, about 50 feet TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 39 deep, two stories, 25 feet tall. So that's really bigger than other buildings that are in the area and will tend to dwarf them. The one at the corner at El Pueblo and Ivory, in overall square footage, is similar in size, but it doesn't have that one long side. It's a square and so it won't appear quite as massive as this will if it's with this long mass space in the parking lot. And it, as we'll talk about a little more later, the overall building mass is really more than this planned for this development when it was laid out. And so looking at that a little bit more closely, again, will this be detrimental to the surrounding residential? Focused on just these lots where the buildings would be, and putting seven units on there with its lot size set, results in 25.7 dwelling units per acre. That's more than our R-5 zoning density. The applicant has pointed out that if this were a more typical residential development, it would have its parking that would go with it. So if we were to add some of that parking area in to which you might more normally see with a residential development, that would bring it down some to a little over 15 units per acre, about an R-4 density, just above the R-3. Again, the adjacent properties are R-2. If we were to look at this eastern area with its 113 parking spaces, if it were all to be developed with multi-resident pieces, that 113 spaces would support approximately 57 dwelling units. A few more if there were one bedrooms and efficiencies in there, but that's based on two bedrooms. And so again, that equates out to an R-5 density if all of it were built out with residential uses. Will residential use creates desirable living environment? Again, this is adjacent to residential to the north and to the east and kind of a continuation of that. There is access to the shopping, schools, churches, so forth in the area. So from that regard, it's an appropriate area for residential. On the other hand, it's going in what really isn't meant to be a commercial area and a commercial parking lot. The small courtyards are adjacent to that commercial parking lot and staff can anticipate, if the rest of the center were to continue to develop and used with a mix of commercial uses, it may be some conflicts the way this is laid out TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 39 between those commercial and residential uses. The applicant did provide and implement a citizen participation plan. Mailed notices to property owners. His report indicated he did not get any calls or feedback. The staff did not either. So bottom line for staff as we look at this, we do have concerns for the commercial activity of this area if this were to be approved. We feel that the size and massing of the building proposed here is out of scale in keeping with the center. Going back to the start of this -- of the presentation, you might recall, we have 41,000 square feet of lot area that could really only contain if it were developed commercially, 28,000 square feet of commercial. So that would be one-story buildings that are less than full-lot coverage. And what's being proposed here are two-story buildings with pretty much full-lot coverage. That's a pretty big difference in scale and massing of what's being proposed, what was initially intended or expected from this development. And so with that concern, staff is recommending denial. Any questions you have for me at this time? GRAY: Vice Chair. SCHLOSSBERG: Do you by any chance have the rendering of the other project that we did approve that's on the corner that you could pull up? WESLEY: I could get there. It would take me a little bit to do so. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. If you can, I'd like to see that so I can continue on, please. Thank you. WESLEY: Okay. WESLEY: Okay. That might be a fast way to get there. GRAY: You want to field one while you're looking, John, or do you want us to hold? WESLEY: You can -- we can try. Let's see how much I can multitask. GRAY: Let's see how he does. Commissioner Watts. WATTS: So both the applicant and the staff referred to the CC&Rs, and they have different interpretations. But we weren't provided with the CC&Rs, and I couldn't find TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 39 them anywhere. Which one is real, okay? WESLEY: Thank you for bringing that up. I meant to touch on that in my presentation and skipped over it. The applicant is correct about the overnight parking. That was a misunderstanding, misinterpretation of what was being said. The existing CC&Rs limit the uses to C-1 uses. And at the time this was initially developed, C-1 uses meant only commercial and did not include any type of residential. And you can make that argument even today that it doesn't allow for the residential because that's through a special use permit. It's not by right. And so when you don't have residential uses, that's just the way they have interpreted it and applied it in their minds, is therefore you can't be there overnight because the businesses are closed. And so that was really kind of a misunderstanding, misstatement to have said that. WATTS: Yeah. It was confusing because I think any legal document can have some degree of interpretation. And I was -- I looked hard for it but I couldn't find it. So I think for future reference, if references to CC&Rs and so on are made in the staff report, we ought to be provided with a copy of it so that we can do our own kind of reading about it. But if I understand you correctly, because of the doubling of the volume of the project, that's the -- probably the principle reason that the staff has declined, or recommended declining? WESLEY: It's between -- it's both things, two things really; the main thing is, one, what's being proposed is out of scale with what was anticipated to be developed here in terms of the amount of building volume that could occur. And the second piece is, we think it will, in the long term, hurt the commercial use of the rest of the center. And we're not ready to give up on that at this point. We know it's been struggling for quite a while. But there'd been some of the other properties with some interest expressed in developing some commercial activities. And so that's our other concern. WATTS: Thank you. SCHLOSSBERG: So by the way, your artist rendering for your project is awesome. I TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 39 really love the way it looks, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the other project on the corner of Fountain Hills Boulevard -- WESLEY: Oh, that one, okay. SCHLOSSBERG: -- that we approved -- WESLEY: Okay. SCHLOSSBERG: -- months ago. WESLEY: Right. So we did have some sketch elevations. They weren't very well developed yet. And they haven't resubmitted yet for an actual site plan. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. GRAY: John, C-C height restrictions are 30; is that right? WESLEY: C-C is 25. GRAY: 25. I don't think it was specifically called out, but the one -- I fully appreciate -- the original intent for this plat hasn't ever really come to fruition. But we also really just adopted our Gateways fairly recently. Last, what, three years here. What's the staff thought related to Gateway? Not necessarily, you know, not necessarily that plat's underlying zoning but that location as our Northern Gateway. WESLEY: Yes, I'm pretty sure -- the staff looked at that and what's in the plan, the greater interest to the terms, the Gateway would really be up at the corner of Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard. And then the Center as a whole, at least along with the Fountain Hills Boulevard side would be part of that more of a Gateway consideration. GRAY: And then, the residential property to the, what would be planned north on your graphic there, is that -- that's a side yard setback for them, or is that rear yard? I see that there's -- looks like there's a 30 foot -- 15 and 15 for setbacks there, but my question is ultimately going to, you know, the second story balconies off the back of these and that not necessarily being something that those adjacent parcels would have bought or developed considering, right? That's a difference in just going two-story residential versus what would be likely, the single-story commercial. WESLEY: Correct. How much they would have considered that, you know, I obviously TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 39 don't know for a fact. The C-C certainly does allow for two-story commercial. We have one two-story commercial in there. And it could happen. But that starts, you'd have the square footage pretty quickly when you do that. That's why, generally, it would be expected to be one stories. But with regard to this lot, without the exact numbers, it would look to me like, from the zoning perspective, this would be the front street side and rear, practically up to the, this front of the house over here. And then, of course, here, that's a front and a rear. GRAY: Commissioner Corey, any inquiries for John? COREY: I'm following along on YouTube, but I can't see where the pointer is going. [LAUGHTER] WESLEY: Sorry about that. I can do it sort of on the screen here, if you're looking -- so north side along Glenbrook is probably the front, technically by design and ordinance, rear to the south along the alley. And east side is probably a street side. But it doesn't make a whole bunch of difference because the street side and the front have the same setback. And then the west side would be, technically an interior side yard. But it looks like it functions as a rear. COREY: Yeah. I guess my only comment here would be that, you know, as you pointed out, this has been mostly vacant plat since 2004. And it seems like it's a minimal parking issue that's the major concern here. So I guess my question would be, did the developer -- were they able to come up with any other solution for those -- another solution for accommodating the select few cars that would be need to be in that shared lot? Were there any other options on the table? WESLEY: Commissioner Corey, at this point, no. The parking, as we discussed these over the last year or so, this one and the other one down off of Saguaro has been a little bit of a challenge to think through what the implications are. Generally speaking, when we've got residential use, it has less of an impact on the parking because the parking demand is lower. And so if this were the same volume of building being proposed, it was all commercial, you know, the parking requirement would be significantly higher because of right of interior parking, they're only using TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 39 three space, which is well under what this would actually be allocated to use. COREY: All right. Okay, thanks. And I guess my only other comment there would be, you know, if we have not had a lot of development here since 2004, who knows how long it's going to take for the other area to be developed. And as we know, travel is changing and transportation is -- the amount of cars that people have, and ride sharing is becoming more popular. So just thinking maybe ten years down the road, we don't really need as many parking spaces as we have, so it might be less of an issue. Something to consider. GRAY: Any other questions? SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah, I keep going back to the corner and that project that we approved several months ago and I'm trying to -- I mean, I know the density may be a little more intense on this one, but it -- for all intents and purposes, this whole plat, as we know, is, as you said, and Clayton alluded to, 20 years, nothings gone on, Sylvester's (ph.) just closed, which is the restaurant that was there. And I think maybe the influx of some additional residential might be beneficial, instead of trying to consider a use for commercial, moving forward. I don't know, maybe just being a realist here, based on what I see. I drive by there several times a day and I really don't understand the difference between any other -- that's why I was asking to see the elevations. I don't understand the difference between this project and the one we approved on the corner, other than the fact that it's on the corner and this one is not. Because I know they were two-story, townhomes or townhome apartments, and these are two-story, townhome apartments. So I don't know, I'm clearly I'm missing something but I'm not sure what it is. DAPAAH: I'm just trying to understand -- you're talking about the one highlighted in blue there? SCHLOSSBERG: Correct. DAPAAH: Yeah. And those -- they proposed 13 of them? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 13. DAPAAH: Okay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 39 WESLEY: Hitting two buttons at once. This one -- DAPAAH: Yeah. WESLEY: -- up here at the corner. And so staff struggled with that one, too. It was approved by Council, I think a five - two vote. And we had concerns there, too, about the tradeoffs between the commercial and the residential. We ended up coming down on the side of supporting it. But there was a struggle getting there. It's separated from the residential and so that compares, again, on the building massing here immediately adjacent versus the busy corner, less of a concern. And separate out -- it's not really part of the property owner's association. For the rest of the plat, it really is a standalone lot, not trying to integrate in with the commercial. It is separate from the reset of them. That's what some of the difference is there. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: Thanks. I was going to save this until later because I don't really have questions. I just want to make a couple comments. Number one, my experience with commercial development in an area like this is -- has been a struggle. And it's because you're a half a mile from Parkland (ph.), where there's no population density. You're a mile to the east; you have no population density due to the Reservation. And commercial development is going to struggle on this site because you don't have the population to support it. I also don't think that the density -- it's fair to look at the density for just those three lots when you have so much common area. I think you have to look at the density incorporating some of that common area as part of the, you know, whatever parking would be allocated to that site as commercial development. It's not R-5 density; it's because of the common area provided. I think that that's a fairer way to look at the density, yes. And I don't think, when you're between R-2 and Commercial, that, you know, R-4 is out of the realm of reasonableness. Now, I probably built about 200 units of this product type. It's a popular product type. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 39 It's a type that can be delivered at a reasonable cost. I am interested to hear from the petitioner as to what his plans are. I think it actually enhances the General Plan. I don't think that anything is being built in town at this price point. And it, you know, I'd like to know if it's for-sale housing or rental housing. I'd like to know his plans from a Forrest Hills standpoint, because I think it could be very complimentary and actually fulfill some of our General Plan points. So I'm interested to hear more and hear from the petitioner if he has a presentation for us tonight. WESLEY: I'm glad to sit down. GRAY: John, do you have a presentation? GURCZAK: No, but I can answer any questions (indiscernible) -- so to answer your question, so pretty much planning to use as rentals and keep it as a one parcel. Since it's part of the commercial plaza, I think it's better to keep them all as one parcel instead of separating them out into individual units. I think that would be a little complicated for being part of the C-C parcel and the shared parking in that. So you know, I've reached out to, you know, some of the other owners of the smaller parcels in the plaza, too, but they're just, you know, unrealistic right now to sell, you know. You know, I am willing to, if you don't bring other projects forward in this area that would be, you know, be similar or you know, kind of compliment, keep everything, you know, unified as far as new developments or redevelopments. Let's see -- so as far as the -- so the one on the top left, now, is recently approved. It's almost the same kind of product. All those backyards back into the commercial parking area, too. And then, or into the street, so. You know, I really don't -- I don't see much of a difference between this one and that one and just he part being -- part of it being part of the commercial. You know, I think it's really -- it's going to help the plaza with their parking situation, that kind of stuff. Because really, you can't build -- you can't build a commercial building to, you know, match lot coverage in two stories on your -- especially if you can put garage in the back or some kind of parking space. And there's actually a section that I found in the zoning TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 39 ordinance. Section 7.04, 7.04. So it says, "Parking areas in areas zoned commercial common, uses located on these lots less than 20,000 square feet in areas where zoning CC&R are not required to meet the minimum parking schedule herein listed." And basically, that, whatever existing is, you know, supposed to meet the parking standards for any development that's proposed on there. So you know, another option, I've been thinking on these, if it doesn't get approved as, you know, someone can do a private parking garage on each lot similar to something like the Motor Belt did. If it's a private for an individual, then you don't really -- none of the zoning, you know, designations apply. And they can be used just as a private parking garage. But I think this is a much better use for the area and for the neighborhood. KOVACEVIC: Are you planning -- so am I correct in assuming that you're not going to be able to stack cars at the garage? The driveway will not be long enough for a car to park there. GURCZAK: No, probably not. It's -- because there only about 15 feet. But you know, I mean, we originally had it -- an extra -- you wouldn't have the one-car garage; we had a two-car garage space at that end unit. We just reduced it because engineering said you can't have a driveway there because of the turning radius on how the lot goes because it's curved at that area. KOVACEVIC: So will you be -- you can go back to the -- well, you can stay there, yeah. So that's an alleyway that'll be coming off of -- GURCZAK: Yeah, it's an alley. KOVACEVIC: And -- GURCZAK: That's where all the garages are. KOVACEVIC: -- yeah. And you'll be paving that? GURCZAK: I mean, I was thinking about it if we need to. KOVACEVIC: Okay. GURCZAK: We could do it. The town doesn't really know why -- I think they said they paved all their alleys already, so they were going to look into it more. So I don't know if TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 39 it -- if this alley then revert -- I think they were saying that it probably reverts back -- reverted back to the Association in that, so -- KOVACEVIC: Yeah. GURCZAK: I mean, you know, as part of the -- yeah, we're willing to pave it if we need to. KOVACEVIC: Well, I think that would be important. But is that already part of this development? It's not -- is that already an easement? GURCZAK: It's already an -- KOVACEVIC: Already an alley? GURCZAK: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: Okay. GURCZAK: Yes. KOVACEVIC: That's a 15-foot alley easement on both sides of that property line? GURCZAK: Yeah, it's 15 on each. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, and it's not paved, he said. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Dirt. GURCZAK: Yeah. Yeah, because this one here, this was all paved already. So I'm not sure why this one was never paved or anything, but you know, it's not a, you know, it's not a big deal for us to do that. KOVACEVIC: So the elevation that you presented here, is that, I mean that is the finished product? That's what you're expecting the finished product to look like? GURCZAK: Yeah, pretty much, yes. And it's the same materials that I have on my -- on the building on -- around the corner. SCHLOSSBERG: Well, that's what I was asking. If we could make it look more like you're building, well, I mean, that really looks -- GURCZAK: Yeah. SCHLOSSBERG: -- much nicer than I ever imagined. So I wonder if these could look more like your commercial building that you're building -- GURCZAK: Yeah. Yeah, it's going -- yeah, same material and finishes, you know, for the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 39 exterior. You don't, I think these are, you know, close enough together that they kind of should be in that direction, they match and that kind of stuff. We're going to apply -- I mean, you can do, you know, I know John was talking about the building mass and that. But you know, these lots can be developed with three separate buildings and be, you know, similar kind of mass. And not really, you know, consistent product on throughout the lots. SCHLOSSBERG: Are you able to pull up your project again real quick, I mean, without taking too much time? GURCZAK: Yeah. SCHLOSSBERG: I got, yeah, similar. I get a much better feeling from this project than what I'm looking at here. But I guess, maybe, it's just an artist's rendering it can be a -- GURCZAK: It is, yeah. And I -- sometimes when they do this stuff, they put, like, different daylight or -- SCHLOSSBERG: Right. GURCZAK: -- you know, shading on it, that's all. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. GURCZAK: Yeah. Lot of times, I mean, you can -- you'll see the color on it -- on a property, and it doesn't look the same. SCHLOSSBERG: All right. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Just a comment going along with Commissioner's comment about the alleyway. I think that if we move forward with it, if we approved it, it shouldn't be that if it's required. I think it should be, it is required to have it paved. GRAY: Absolutely. WATTS: Well, the Applicant has said -- GURCZAK: Yeah, well, I'm not sure if it's the town's responsibility that it should have already been paved; that's the only thing. But -- WATTS: I don't care whose responsibility it is; I think you need to agree to having it paved so that from street to street, or street to alley, that that's part of your cost. Just TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 39 so it gets done. GURCZAK: Yeah. That's fine, yeah. WATTS: So it's -- GURCZAK: Yeah. WATTS: -- we don't have any ambiguity about who's responsible, whether there's an argument about the street or the city or town or you, so. GURCZAK: Yeah. You know, as far as I know, and I talked to the Streets Department, and this was the only alley that wasn't paved in the whole town. GURCZAK: We struggle with a lot of those lots that have dirt and people parking on the dirt and the dust that's happened. So this would be a way to eliminate that in that particular area anyway. So I'd make it part of that, or contingency to it. And I do think the one time before, you talked about, this is your -- sorry, this is your signature-type building. The one on the corner that has already been approved -- GURCZAK: Um-hum. WATTS: -- so you're going to keep all of these consistent. And I would assume that you're going to try and pick up a couple more lots in this area and do exactly the same thing, so. GURCZAK: Yeah. Similar, yeah. WATTS: That's the same thing, so the -- GURCZAK: Yeah. WATTS: -- continuity between the corners and this lot I think are pretty important to make sure colors and elevation sand that stuff are all met. GURCZAK: Yeah. I mean, I've recently contacted one of the -- the guy that has, like, nine of those lots, but he's just unrealistic right now. It might take -- WATTS: Not interested? GURCZAK: -- it might take an approval process where he can't get his product, you know, approved to kind of bring him back to reality. WATTS: Possible, right. Thanks. KOVACEVIC: How difficult would it be, this is easy for me to say, but I got to ask the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 39 question. How difficult would it be to get an 18-foot drive? GURCZAK: I think it would be -- the yards would be, you know, a lot smaller. I mean, there's be, like, an extra three, four feet, probably, on average. KOVACEVIC: Yeah, but three feet, but you'd cantilever the balcony out. GURCZAK: Let's see -- KOVACEVIC: I have three -- how wide are they? Like 20? GURCZAK: They should -- the garage are at least 18 wide. So yeah, about 18 to 20. KOVACEVIC: So you'd lose -- maybe you've picked up three feet of drive. You're only losing 54 feet a unit and that shouldn't hurt you too bad. GURCZAK: Yeah. KOVACEVIC I -- the problems with the cantilevers -- GURCZAK: Yeah, I mean I can -- I wasn't even, when I originally, because I had these drawn up by -- wasn't thinking we would have any -- any driveways, or this much driveway. You know, I think, you know, be part of this -- KOVACEVIC: Too much? GURCZAK: -- shared parking -- KOVACEVIC: Might solve your turning radius problem to get a two-car garage on that end unit, too. GURCZAK: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: I don't know, maybe not. GURCZAK: Yeah, I mean, you know, we have, I think, 13 provided spaces already. You know, the kind of house, you know, plan to utilize at least some of the shared parking in that -- especially for guest parking and that kind of stuff. I think the plaza is perfectly fine for it. I don't want to make it smaller because they're not enough to -- the back yards are going to be kind of tight or the units, you know, tighter on the bottom as far as how the floorplan goes. And I kind of want to get some separation between the building and the parking lot, too. KOVACEVIC: Right. No, yeah, I was thinking you'd take it out of the back of the building. Or how are these -- do you have your floorplans -- do you have floorplans done? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 39 GURCZAK: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: Is it -- are, on the lower level -- GURCZAK: Kitchen, living, a kitchen/family room on the bottom and then everything else on top. KOVACEVIC: Okay. GRAY: John, can we bring you back up just for a second, please? John, 1.0, please. Do you want to ask him? WATTS: Oh, yeah. Sure. The drawings look pretty easy, but the reality is that that driveway goes across and makes kind of an S shape at the end, running up and bumping up against that, the west side of that one, towards the east side of the one property on the west end of that where it comes to the alley. If you -- I think I can see your point. The corner of the green area, you see where it makes the dip, keep going down there, now makes the dip and it makes an S turn and comes up and it goes to the left to the alley. WESLEY: Yes. WATTS: It looks like it -- when we first looked at this, it looked like it went straight across and it does not. How much of a challenge is it, and is that property something that we could pave without owners and somebody else's input? So it gets kind of -- it's not a straight shot across. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The alley would go over top of the garage apron from existing single-family residents -- WATTS: Um-hum. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's just the way it looks. WESLEY: So I guess I'm not a hundred percent sure where you're asking it, but let's explore it. So this, from my understanding, is a platted alley. It's a right-of-way. And so if it's going to be actively used, it does need to be paved. And it would be the town's expectation that, at least for this portion, that this developer would pave this piece as part of providing his driveways to access it. The question would be the rest of it. Do we go ahead and pave all of it at this time at a town expense or how that works out here. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 39 But if -- it would appear the fact that there -- you can see, there's a path through there. Somebody must be using that to some degree. And so that paving is maybe an interrupt how it's been used a little bit in the past. But they'll still have their access and better access by it having being paved. WATTS: When we look at dual maps, you can clearly see the landscaping of the house that is right above the green area, goes all the way into that alley. WESLEY: Yup. WATTS: That's going to be -- I'm not sure how -- I don't know how it's going to work, but it -- when you look at Google Maps, you can see that that's used by that homeowner and -- what have you got, 24 feet wide from one side to the cars? Only 24 feet wide, so. Is that something that if we move forward that -- your staff would figure out how to make it work? WESLEY: Yes. That would be the next stage of actually developing the site plan for this we would get into that level of detail. WATTS: Yeah. We see a problem, but we don't see -- I don't have a solution anyway. All I know is it's tight. GRAY: So let's chase the rabbit for a second. With that being an established path and it's -- with its swooping -- well, you can it on there. When it -- as it sweeps down into the plat to the south, does that become a by-right pathway? WESLEY: That's what we have attorneys for. GRAY: Well, I mean, let's just talk about it. WESLEY: So in the -- yes. It would appear that they had been trespassing on somebody else's land. And they done it enough or over enough years to have eminent domain rights to -- or adverse possession of that. I don't know, that's a legal issue for somebody to figure out. But the alley itself is still there. And if it gets paved and improved, they still have access. Again, that would be potentially a legal issue for somebody to figure out. GRAY: Okay. Any other questions for John or the petitioner before we open up the public hearing? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 39 Okay. Let's go ahead and do that. Paula, do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: One speaker card. Rod Lovenpour (ph.); is that right? WARRENBURG: Heck of a try, though. WOODWARD: I wasn't sure what -- WARRENBURG: I know, my writing is so -- but it's Warrenburg (ph.). And it doesn't matter, nobody remembers it anyway. Just Rod is good. I am the president of the tract. I don't know how that happened, but it did. I am here tonight because I just want to help clarify. I feel like we caused a lot of problems with John and with Erica (ph.) and with John with this whole parking issue. I did bring copies of the CC&Rs if you would like them. They should have been sent out a long time ago. Part of where our concern is as a property owner's association, really has nothing to do with the residential. I think that probably would be a good thing. What we don't know how to handle, and I -- it becomes complicated. So I don't know what to do with it. Our CC&Rs are C-1 Commercial. There is no information in them about how to handle residential parking. Our parking is shared parking that, you know, typically with residential -- and again, we're just making assumptions, right? This isn't our forte. Typically with residential, you would expect a reserve lot, like, I'd kind of like my parking to be somewhere near my house. We don't have any way to do any of that. And so we're not against any of this, we just want to be clear. Parking, we see as somewhat of a concern because we don't really know how to handle it. In the past, that other lot that you brought up that was at the corner of Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard, that isn't really in -- it's part of the plat, it's just not in our association. They're able to handle things however they want to. The lot that was approved, John's current lot down on the corner, that at one point in history was zoned residential. Well, great, that's no problem for us because our shared space, our parking lots, extra shared spaces, those belong to people who are part of our owner's association. Well, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 39 the owner of that wanted to have parking. He needed parking. And so he sued for the right to reenter our POA. He did. But then had to zone commercial. Well, currently that lot is now, correct me if I'm wrong, it's commercial with a rider -- rider, residential -- GRAY: Mixed use. WARRENBURG: -- mixed use, right? GRAY: Yes. WARRENBURG: Okay. So that makes sense for us. We can work with that, right? Because this is commercial with rights, so John understands the way the parking works. It's not likely anybody's going to rush out to that far corner, all the way away from all the buildings to use the parking. But that's not reserved parking, right? It's very hard for us to have what we call reserved parking when our CC&Rs make it very clear that it's shared and it's open, right? And so some of the members have said, well, gosh, you know, there shouldn't be overnight parking. And they've read stuff on the town website, that's all above my pay grade. I don't have any idea about that, right? Lawyers, I think you said, they'll sort all this stuff. I don't know about that. Our big concern right now is how do we handle something that we're just not equipped to handle? So I wanted to present that to you and let you know, from our perspective, I'm -- John's been great to work with. I don't have any problems with that. I don't think anybody is against this. We just don't know what to do with it, right? If this lot was zoned residential, and they weren't in the owner's association, that would be irrelevant to us. That would be fine. But that's not helpful to John because there's a certain amount of parking necessary, right, to make all these things work. So I don't know how to make these pieces work, right? The people that buy the lots, the other people that have bought them recently over the last few years, there've been a number of purchases of them. They're buying them after receiving the CC& Rs and they know what they're getting. They have an expectation on the property. They have an expectation for what they purchased. I -- admittedly, nobody's done anything with it, but lots of people buy property in hopes TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 39 that someday it'll be something, right? So our job as a board is simply fiduciary. Our job is to protect the CC&Rs. And that's really all I want to communicate to you tonight. We see our job as protecting what we were entrusted to protect. So it would be great if all this can work out. To the best of my knowledge, every document I've seen, that alley section is not part of the plat, our plat. I don't know if that's helpful in all of your considerations, but to the best of my knowledge, that's not in there. And I do know it's been used for a long, long time, a long time. But again, those are things for smart people to sort out, not me. So I basically wanted to come and just say, are there any questions I can ask from the property owner -- answer from the property owners. And I'll do my best to do that. And if not, I'll go sit down now. WATTS: I'm going to try and summarize what you just got done -- WARRENBURG: Okay -- sorry. WATTS: Your concern is parking. WARRENBURG: Our concern largely is with parking, right. That's largely our big concern. WATTS: Okay. So everything else aside, if John says that staff has got parking covered, you're okay? WARRENBURG: If -- yeah, okay, so that becomes a bit of a sticky wicket. WATTS: Well, that's why I asked. When you say -- WARRENBURG: Right. So let's be -- WATTS: -- largely -- WARRENBURG: -- so let's be clear. The property owners that have chimed in, right? Some do, some don't. If John needs a portion of the parking that's there, there is a concern that that may cause a problem down line because it's not so much that John will take up all the parking. That's not the issue. The issue is what happens when a whole bunch of people have parked there, like, for example, the church is just on the west of that. The whole bunch of people, which is typical for a Sunday morning, that whole back part is full unless somebody comes home and they want to use the back lot. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 39 Well, they can't. They will have to park somewhere else because that lot is first come, first serve. Conversely, what if a whole bunch of people have parked in the back lot and now people have come to show up for church, well, then, they'll have to park a long ways away. And so this is just part of shared parking, right? It's no harm, no foul. It's just, we're concerned that there's an expectation that certain lots are going to be reserved. And I don't know how to -- we don't know how to address it. Our CC&Rs don't cover reserved parking. There isn't such a thing, right? It's shared parking for that whole section. WATTS: So it sounds to me, like, the applicant, I'm not going to go John and John, but the applicant has got parking covered, not covered literally, but complied with onsite with the exception of maybe two parking spaces. And is that -- WATTS: -- four -- three. Three parking spaces. So how many parking spaces are in the general parking lot? WARRENBURG: A hundred and -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's like 113 -- WARRENBURG: -- 13. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: -- on one side. On the other side, there's like 153. WARRENBURG: Right. So on the other side of the alley, there's a big open parking lot there and that, what'd you say 130 -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 53. WARRENBURG: 153, yeah, there's a pile of them over there. WATTS: So is three parking spaces potentially consequential? WARRENBURG: Well, again, all above my pay grade. I just want you guys to know where our concerns lie and what our job -- what we see our job as a property owners association. Our job is to make sure that the people who bought property with specific desires upon in aren't shifted out of that, right? They might have made other choices had they known. So consequential? I don't know. Only time will tell. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 39 WATTS: But unfortunately, you're the spokesman for -- WARRENBURG: Yeah, I know -- WATTS: -- the homeowners association. WARRENBURG: -- that makes it really hard, doesn't it. WATTS: And when you say large -- not for me -- WARRENBURG: -- yeah. WATTS: -- but for you, it -- you -- if you're largely okay, then I'm going to take that as, you're really okay. Because when you got a 153 and a hundred and -- WARRENBURG: I can tell you there's a fair amount of pushback -- WATTS: 250? WARRENBURG: -- so I can't say we're largely okay. There's a fair amount of concern that this is going to present a problem. And again, all I can do is tell you what I hear from other property owners, other people that are there. WATTS: Okay, so -- WARRENBURG: So it's -- so the concern is this, pardon me. The concern is this, this is probably not where this is going to end, right? I mean, this is probably the beginning of a number of residential sections that will go in there. Will this one be a problem? Probably not. Will the next two or three be a problem? At some point, right? At some point we have to look at enforcing the CC&Rs, right? At some point we have to say, this lot has to be C-1 - Commercial or the owners who are part of our POA at minimum have to be C-1 - Commercial. And it doesn't matter if it's a mixed use, right? That's commercial and mixed. That doesn't pose a problem for us. As long as the understanding is parking is parking. WATTS: I just struggle with the fact that three parking spaces, and they may be the best parking spaces, the closest parking spaces, out of 250 available parking spaces in that area -- WARRENBURG: Yeah. It does pose a problem, right? I'm just saying -- WATTS: But it's not -- WARRENBURG: -- people are funny, right? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 39 WATTS: -- okay. WARRENBURG -- So for example, let's take the lot at the corner of Ivory and El Pueblo. If a majority of the parking is full for whatever reason, then a resident of that has to park in the far lot across the alley. And they're not going to be happy, right? So there's always a position where somebody's not happy. And unfortunately, the board of this owner's association is stuck sorting out issues that it was never geared to sort out, right? This was always intended to be commercial. And I appreciate that maybe it'd be better as a residential, that just isn't what our CC&R say. WATTS: Well, that's why we're here. WARRENBURG: Which is why we're here, right? So I want to be clear. I don't have any reason -- anything against -- I'm trying to stop this. I'm not trying to hold it up. I'm just trying to bring some clarity to what the concerns are. Too many of the people who own property in here are almost impossible to reach. Some you can reach out and they'll call back. Others, they bought property, and it's just -- it set there for years. I have no idea what's going to happen with that. Maybe it would be better if it was all residential. But if that was the case, it requires, from our perspective, a change to our CC&Rs. And then everything would fit again. KOVACEVIC: Okay. I appreciates it. WARRENBURG: Yeah. I'm trying, man. Doing my best. KOVACEVIC: And I appreciate your position. But if petitioner came back -- all of a sudden a 10,000 square foot commercial user fell in his lap, and he came back next month and said, oh, you know, mea culpa, I'm going to build a 10,000-square-foot building for somebody -- WARRENBURG: At that point, we would then do what we could, just like we -- well, we would do what we could to try to make it work. It's -- KOVACEVIC: But my point, where I'm headed, though, is that instead of a development that would use three parking spaces, a 10,000-square-foot commercial development would use 40. WARRENBURG: Yeah, right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 39 KOVACEVIC: And you know, all of a sudden, I mean, if it's something like -- and if it were a restaurant, it would use -- WARRENBURG: Take even more. KOVACEVIC: 50. WARRENBURG: Sure. KOVACEVIC: Or if it's -- what's a restaurant, one per hundred? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: 1 per 50. KOVACEVIC: 1 per 50. So that'd be -- WARRENBURG: Yeah, and again, I want to be clear, I'm not trying to argue logic. I don't disagree with you. That's why I want to be upfront as possible. I don't disagree with you. I am just charged, right? My position is to enforce the CC&Rs. It's not to say what ifs, right? I'm just stuck with enforcing. KOVACEVIC: Right, but this take all -- this takes a tremendous amount of pressure off of the rest of the development's parking. WARRENBURG: Yeah, okay. So certainly could. Again, I don't disagree. That would require change to the CC&Rs which would require a hundred percent vote, so. Can it be done? Sure. KOVACEVIC: Okay, how -- so the -- but that's what I -- what I'd need to hear is how is this a violation of the CC&Rs? WARRENBURG: Okay. It's a -- what is the violation is the lots, the common areas are to be developed according to the CC&Rs. The lots, the common areas, all the pieces are to be developed C-1 Commercial. This is residential and it's, I mean, it's really -- it's like a one-liner deal. It says the lots are to be C-1 Commercial and developed C-1 Commercial. And so it's not like we're just a bunch of people that are saying, oh, no, we don't want lots, right? We take our fiduciary responsibility seriously. We obviously had to hire a lawyer to make sure we weren't messing this up because we -- I don't want other people to come back to me later and use me because you were charged with keeping our CC&Rs in order, and now all this stuff has happened, and how -- look, I'm not good at predicting the future. All I know is what the CC&Rs say now. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 39 The last change to the CC&Rs took just about two years to get everybody -- it was painful, and it was -- so I just want to present our position, not necessarily -- I'm not against this, right? I think this probably would help vitalize the whole area. But that's not what I'm charged with. KOVACEVIC: I understand but now, I'm confused. I mean, we have the town zoning of C-C, which is, I mean, that zoning classification stinks, John. We got to do something about that. And when we've got -- but now, we got CC&Rs, which really, I don't know how much of a concern that is of ours -- WARRENBURG: For you guys, probably no concern at all. For Mr. Gerzack (ph.), I think-- GURCZAK: One comment I'd kind of like -- going off with years -- we were thinking is that, you know, technically, it's still developed as C-C or C-1. It's just got a special use permit attached to it. So it's not being developed any other -- under any other zoning. Zoning is not changing or anything. But it's got a special use permit attached to it. KOVACEVIC: So but -- GURCZAK: And I don't the CC&Rs don't mention anything about it has to be developed as C-1 or C-C. WARRENBURG: It does. I got a, like -- GURCZAK: It has to be or that it's -- WARRENBURG: No, it's -- going forward they have to be developed -- GURCZAK: Well, they -- it still technically is because if the zoning had been changing, you just have a use permit attached to it. KOVACEVIC Well -- GURCZAK: And I mean, I don't see it being any different than the, you know, the other project when you have the residential on top and commercial on the bottom. WARRENBURG: So to be clear, from our perspective, if there is a commercial component in this, then, frankly, there's no issue here from our perspective at all. It's when -- I was under the impression, and maybe I got this all wrong. I was under the impression this was just to be residential. GURCZAK: It is, yeah. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 39 WARRENBURG: Okay so -- GURCZAK: But I mean -- WARRENBURG: -- (indiscernible) -- GURCZAK: -- well, I'm just thinking it out logic, I could put, like, a hundred-square foot office on the end of it and then we'd solve that issue. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: (Indiscernible). GURCZAK: I mean, I don't think there is any issue at all if the CC&Rs -- I've read through them and gone through it and that end -- KOVACEVIC: Yeah. But my -- I guess my question is -- but the C-1 have the same opportunity for residential with a special use permit that C-C does. GURCZAK: No. This one's actually a C-C. KOVACEVIC No. I understand that -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, it's the same. KOVACEVIC: -- but it's the same? GURCZAK: Yeah, it's the same. KOVACEVIC: Okay. GRAY: I think what we're saying here is the parking equation, this is a betterment scenario, but this -- with respect to the CC&Rs, it's black and white. This underlying use, even though the zoning remains, is in conflict with the CC&Rs, but the CC&Rs will have to work through a secondary process if this ultimately gets approved. WARRENBURG: And I think from our perspective, that's -- I just want to be clear with that. I want to be clear with you with that. I want to be clear with everybody with that, right? So it is possible. We could send out a letter to the whole group and two years later, they would come back and say, yes, we will make changes to our CC&Rs to allow for how we're going to handle parking. It's also possible that you could secede, right? And then do whatever you want with the property. There's millions of options, and my charge isn't to figure out what all the options are, I just -- I felt like we caused a problem, I want to just come and say, this is where our concerns lie. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 39 KOVACEVIC: But I don't think the petitioner is asking for dedicated parking within the parking -- WARRENBURG: No. KOVACEVIC: -- lot. WARRENBURG: No, he -- KOVACEVIC: It is -- WARRENBURG: -- he wouldn't do that -- KOVACEVIC: -- it's understood that it's first come, first serve parking -- GURCZAK I don't think it's even addressed in the CC&R so I don't see any issue -- KOVACEVIC: -- the residents, the church, whomever, the restaurants, whomever, it's first come, first serve parking. WARRENBURG: Yes. And we would expect that. We foresee a problem with people thinking when they rent the spot or get a spot that this is my parking area, right? And I can tell you that because we already have those problems, right? I don't know, Sylvester's was there for a while. They recently closed. At least, from what I understand. But there was always conflict between the two buildings. Well, no, that's our parking, no, that's our parking. Well, you can't park here because that's our -- it's like, guys, no. There is no our parking, right? If it's open, it's yours. And if it's closed, it's not yours. And then somebody said, well, we need to put up signs. It's like, no, we can't put up signs because it's open parking. So again, I'm not trying to complicate things, just trying to bring clarity to our position. GURCZAK: Well, whatever use is going to be on any of these lots, there's going to be that same conflict. So I mean, I don't see how, you know, this development makes any -- is any different than any other use or commercial use or anything. It's really -- WARRENBURG: Yeah, and then -- GURCZAK: -- minimal, three spots, I mean, that probably are almost never going to be used, for the most part. GRAY: Well, it's three spots by calculation, but it's -- if you were commercial underlying TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 39 use, then you would be absorbing more than that utilization anyway. So -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah and it's -- GRAY: -- if the three spots are -- [CROSS-TALK] KOVACEVIC: I guess my, the only -- the residential is an acceptable use in a C-1 zone parcel with a special use permit. Is that correct? Okay. GRAY: But this is C-C. [LAUGHTER] WARRENBURG: I didn't say that; you did. Is there anything else I can answer for you? I feel like -- GRAY: No, we understand. WARRENBURG -- I'm causing problems. And I don't mean to. And special permit -- I don't mean to. GURCZAK: No, I know what you're saying, but -- WARRENBURG: I'm caught between a rock and a hard place -- GURCZAK: -- it kind of makes it more complicating -- WARRENBURG: Yeah. GURCZAK: -- a little bit. WARRENBURG: Yeah. I get it. But I need to add that bit of complication, so if there's GRAY: No. We appreciate that. GURCZAK: All right. Thank you. GRAY: Paula, any other speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Did you folks wish to speak or no? ELLISON: Well, I just know that -- GRAY: Come up to the -- come up to the microphone for us, and we'll get you a card. ELLISON: Good evening, my name is Rebecca Ellison (ph.). I live at 15115 North Ivory Drive, directly across the street from the parking lot in question. Just this -- this is interesting to me. I think the residential use is highly acceptable to those residents that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 39 are on Ivory Drive. I also know that the ten -- the people that live in that residential lot behind where the alley, where you claim there's an alley. My question is, is that truly an alley, or is that considered by town standards to be an easement, because that whole area, including where our home is was originally zoned as commercial property and in 1974, '75, it was rezoned as R-2, I think it -- we have duplexes there. So you know, the whole thing, I don't have any issue. And the parking I understand where the pastor is coming from, because on Sunday he starts to maximize that parking area. If that begets to be problem with more -- if more buildings go in there, then I can see where the problem will come. And also, the people that live there now have been there for -- we've been in that home 28 years and they were there before that and they use that as their driveway, what you're calling an alley. And I'm just curious. Is it an alley? Is it an easement? Because we have had all commercial property behind us, all of it was -- or we were -- our lot was commercial. It was rezoned, and there was an easement PUE (ph.) put in, but the town doesn't want to maintain it. So they zoned it or they deeded it to us. It's a very complex -- the whole area is very complex. And in the beginning when the zoning of the town was done, there was some, you know, there was high hopes for a much bigger commercial area. So anyway, there's just a few gray areas as well. And so I just wanted to clarify my question as far as, we have no issue with the residential. In fact, we would, you know, the commercial that Mr. Gerzack is putting in, we weren't in favor of that and we're still not, but you know, you -- everyone agreed on that, and so we're just going to let that one lie. But the residential, I -- it fits better because the lot has been sitting there far before we've even owned our home. And it' still, you know, that not's going to be a hot development. Now we've lost another business there. The restaurant closed up again for like the eighth time. And also the two-story building, which was finally residential and commercial, it's not back to being commercial. And who know what -- that's been empty since those people moved out. So here we are again. Thank you for your time this evening. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 39 GRAY: Thank you much. All right. Let's go ahead and close the public hearing. John, you -- GURCZAK: Just one more thing. On the alley, I think there is some utility. I know there's a sewer line running through that alley or something. So I think there might be some utility easements, but that's typically where they run them, is through the alleys. GRAY: Okay. Well, this got complicated quick, huh? WESLEY: It's been complicated all the way along. GRAY: Why is it that John's projects that are complicated? WESLEY: I know it, that one, right? GRAY: Yeah, that one. WESLEY: So Chairman, Commissioners, you know, I don't know that I have any more to add. I could respond to questions. You've brought up many of the same thought process we went through as we reviewed it on a staff level. We came down on the side, again, recommending denial just because of the overall massing we feel like is too much and out of scale because, while we recognize some of this are probably should still go residential, having the building go all residential and do it in kind of a piecemeal fashion, we were concerned with. Like to see a better plan for moving forward to make sure we're able to include the commercial. But again, that's -- we can see the pro side, too, of getting something up and getting more residences here. It won't have a negative impact on the parking. It will actually help the parking situation because of the residential use. And so you know, we can see that direction, also. GRAY: So John, I got two reservations. Before my reservations, I think the project is a decent project. If the color pallet mirrors and is complimentary to the other two on the parcel, I think all of that's well and good. My reservations are it being turned, the drive access being turned north and how that works with that alleyway. And then my other concern is probably none of my business. But obviously the trend line here is flipping this plat over to residential and about one more approval and we'll TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 39 have ringed the big open parking lot that nobody can access any more for development. And something like this really needs to go through a masterplan or a revision to see this thing develop for the long term. That's none of my business, but those area my two reservations. WESLEY: Chairman, I guess that last part is part of what staff's concern was. And the need to -- we'd feel better if we could see this in a holistic way, how the whole thing was going to develop to make sure this wasn't negatively impacting the rest of it there was, not create additional problems. WATTS: Just a couple of comments that -- I appreciate where you're coming from. We'd like to see a masterplan, but I'd like to have a crystal ball, figure out what was in the future as well. But we don't. And we live with what we have today. I think that if the applicant is agreeable to taking, whatever the engineering department says as far as that alley or path or whatever that is between the alley and Ivory, and paving it, making it passable, that would be a stipulation that I would want to have included in there. But unfortunately, I don't know how to predict the future and come back with master planning. The applicant has said, if he has the opportunity to buy more land there, you're buying it. GURCZAK: Yes. WATTS: Pretty straight forward. So it's going to go more residential at some point. Most contractors that I know, developers, wear down those that don't want to sell their land. So you just keep putting more money on his table, and eventually somebody will sell, and you're going to have that same situation again. So this takes some of the stress out of the parking issue by having parking on site. So it does do that. It's a positive. The product is a positive. The drawback is that path, alley, or whatever the heck that is between, and if we could clean that up, I think we'd be in better shape, so. WESLEY: And Chairman, Commissioner, to respond to the citizen, it's not an easement; it is an alley. WATTS: It is an alley? WESLEY: Yes. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 39 WATTS: Okay. That is -- case closed, then. But is an alley in that configuration with than S in the bottom of it -- WESLEY: That drive path that's been created over the years, that goes outside of the alley. WATTS: Okay. So that answers that. WESLEY: So there are some potential issues to work out with how it's paved and, you know, what that has done with any prescriptive rights or whatever that, potentially there's some issues there. But despite that, the area between these lots is an alley. WATTS: That's good to know that at least we know what we're dealing with now, so thank you. WESLEY: So with that, Commissioner, if there's no other questions, comments -- GRAY: Well, before you do what you're going to do, I guess -- I mean, I'm with you on 95 percent of what you said. But I would prefer, and Commissioner Kovacevic started addressing it earlier. I would prefer to see this thing pull plan south to allow for a full drive apron. I think that it's somewhat -- I think it's challenging to have a 15 foot apron off a 30 foot alley that's got an immediate adjacency in that residential use to the north. And I, you know, I don't have a crystal ball either, and I don't have a magic wand for the record, but I think potentially talking, with the plat, about pulling the property line south. And maybe even taking over those 18 parking spaces makes it a great development versus one that just barely works today. WESLEY: Chairman, if I may, this -- we didn't get into it too much because it's a special use permit with a conceptual site plan and we'll review a site plan in more detail later. But typically, if we do look at this type of situation and we get in that site plan phase, we would be working with the applicant to get a driveway that is either 18 feet deep or something shallower down around less than 10, so it's clear, you don't park there, because anything in between, people will try to park there, then it will halfway block the alley and that type of thing -- the drive aisle. And so we will, to the degree we can, be pushing one way or the other and as we have that detail site plan. GRAY: Are you -- I'll vote for it if you're willing to work with John on that. You got to get TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 39 to 18-foot drive aprons. GURCZAK: Yeah, I mean, just kind of on that comment, I know Rod's really had, like, four garage doors in the back off the alley and I mean, that's pretty much alley. I think he's only got maybe five feet out there. WARRENBURG: It's not much in the garage, yeah. The garages aren't even -- parking -- GURCZAK: Yeah. WARRENBURG: -- I mean, it's -- you can park something short there, but that's it. GURCZAK: Yeah. Yeah, I think on this building, you got about five, ten feet off the alley for the garage spaces or whatever on that building. KOVACEVIC: I just want to -- well, we're talking about, like, three feet off of the lower level. And as long as you can cantilever the upper level, it really shouldn't be a big deal. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: That's number one. But number two, we're talking about a crystal ball and what's -- I just know, and I want to reiterate what I said earlier; I've had experience with a couple of shopping centers in Scottsdale that were back up to the Reservation that wasn't developed with no rooftops. And the McDowell Mountain Park on the other side -- on the Scottsdale side, where you're right up against the mountains with no rooftops. And commercial in that area is -- it's miserable. People don't -- people can't make their businesses work. Retail doesn't work there. They don't get enough traffic. And office is the same thing. And the office market is flat on its back now, for the foreseeable future anyway. So I really think residential is the highest and best use for this property right now. And I'm inclined to support it. Especially with petitioner paving the alley and providing the parking on the driveways for two additional cars. GRAY: Yeah, I mean, and I -- just to be clear, I agree with you. My masterplan comment was more a masterplan regeared towards residential to, you know, because eventually you're going to end up with a parking island in the middle of this thing that's going to be rendered useless, so. Commissioner Corey, any final comments before a motion? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 39 COREY: No additional comments. I am for this project. GRAY: Your turn, sir. WATTS: Thanks. With that, I move to approve the project, special use permit as submitted with the condition that the GURCZAK works with engineering to accommodate the drive lengths and to pave the alley between Ivory and the alley. Alley valley. KOVACEVIC: With the drive lengths to accommodate two -- WATTS: Right. At least he's going to work with engineering to do whatever engineering says -- KOVACEVIC: -- parking. Yeah. So that the drive lengths are long enough to accommodate additional parking. GRAY: You want to give it a threshold or not? WATTS: I can give it 18 feet if -- GRAY: 18 feet. WATTS: -- if that's what engineer, you're going to come back with. GRAY: That's minimal. WATTS: But I think that John said it could be either 18 feet or as short as 10 feet. I don't know of any cars that are only 10 feet long. GRAY: Schlossberg's. Okay. So you're amending to 18 foot? WATTS: I'd stay with 18 feet. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, second, please? KOVACEVIC: I'll second. GRAY: All right. Commissioner Watt has put a motion on the table to recommend approval of the special use permit inclusive of two conditions. Condition number one, that the alley be paved by the GURCZAK in coordination with engineering. And two, that the apron drive allow for an 18-foot parking accommodation in addition to the garage configuration. Paula, let's go ahead and do a roll call vote, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 39 COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg. SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray. GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Six, zero. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. All right. Number 6 and Number 7, John. Commission Discussion/Requests and Summary of Commissioner Requests. Commissioners, any requests of John? You want to get rid of C-C? [LAUGHTER] GRAY: No? All right. Summary's going to be short, then. WESLEY: It is. So you'll have a meeting again in a month, in September. As far as I know right now, the only thing that'll be on that agenda is one of your favorite topics and the sign ordinance. Our goal at that meeting will be to get a recommendation so we can get it moved back to the town council. WATTS: Should we plan on three hours? WESLEY: There's still a possibility you might have another item or two, but that -- GRAY: Did you say the logo is on the sign ordinance or not? WESLEY: We'll deal with that. GRAY: Okay. Having a hard time looking at the screen. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Me too. GRAY: Okay. Does that -- okay. Well, we're adjourned. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS AUGUST 14, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 39 [Meeting adjourned at 7:22 p.m.]