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HomeMy WebLinkAbout230508 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptPlanning and Zoning Commission May 8, 2023 1 of 4 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MAY 8, 2023 1. CALL TO ORDER, PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE AND MOMENT OF SILENCE Chairman Gray called the Regular Meeting of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission held on May 8, 2023, to order at 6:01 p.m. and led the Commission and audience in the Pledge of Allegiance and Moment of Silence. 2. ROLLCALL Commissioners Present: Chairman Peter Gray: Vice Chairman Scott Schlossberg; Commissioner Clayton Corey; Commissioner Susan Dempster; Commissioner; Commissioner Rick Watts, Jr. Commissioners Absent: Dan Kovacevic Staff Present: Development Services Director John Wesley, Senior Planner Farhad Tavassoli, and Executive Assistant Paula Woodward 3. CALL TO THE PUBLIC No one from the public spoke. 4. CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: approving the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission April 10, 2023. MOVED BY Commissioner Dempster to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission April 10, 2023, SECONDED BY Commissioner Watts. Vote: 6 - 0 Unanimously Recorder’s Note: Chairman Gray reordered the agenda items as follows: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 6, 5, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, due to the number of residents speaking and in attendance on behalf of those items. 5. PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: Zone Change for a dual-zoned parcel from R1-35H and OSR to a uniformly zoned R1-35H parcel, located at 16134 E. Tombstone Ave. in Firerock Parcel F, Lot 5 (APN 176-11-069). RZ23-000001 MOVED BY Commissioner Dempster to recommend the Town Council approve the Zone Change to a dual-zoned parcel from R1-35H and OSR to a uniformly zoned R1-35H parcel, located at 16134 E. Tombstone Ave. SECONDED BY Commissioner Dapaah. Vote: 6 - 0 passed – Unanimously . 6. PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE ACTION: SPECIAL USE PERMIT request to allow 16 licensed beds at a home for the aged on a 0.37-acre parcel located at the northeast corner of Palisades Blvd. and Westby Drive (16602 E. Palisades Blvd.: APN 176-05-993) in the R-3 Multifamily Zoning District. SUP23-000002 Planning and Zoning Commission May 8, 2023 2 of 4 The following residents provided written statements stating that they were against the project: James Bonifas Tom Peterson Tom Campbell Sharon Campbell The following residents addressed the Commission: Crystal Cavanaugh Veronica Oliver Larry Meyers MOVED BY Commissioner Dapaah to recommend the Town Council approve the SPECIAL USE PERMIT request to allow 16 licensed beds at a home for the aged on a 0.37-acre parcel located at the northeast corner of Palisades Blvd. and Westby Drive (16602 E. Palisades Blvd.: APN 176-05-993) in the R-3 Multifamily Zoning District. MOTIONED FAILED. MOVED BY Commissioner Watts to recommend the Town Council deny the SPECIAL USE PERMIT request to allow 16 licensed beds at a home for the aged on a 0.37-acre parcel located at the northeast corner of Palisades Blvd. and Westby Drive (16602 E. Palisades Blvd.: APN 176-05-993) in the R-3 Multifamily Zoning District. SECONDED BY Commission Dempster. Vote: 5 - 1 passed Commissioner Corey Aye Commissioner Dapaah Nay Commissioner Dempster Aye Commissioner Watts Aye Vice Chairman Schlossberg Aye Chairman Peter Gray Aye Recorder's Note: The Planning and Zoning Commission recessed at 8:36 p.m. for a short break and reconvened at 8:45 p.m. 7. PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION, AND POSSIBLE ACTION HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION, AND POSSIBLE ACTION: A request for approval of a SPECIAL USE PERMIT for residential use of commercially zoned property at 12800 N. Saguaro Boulevard, the northwest corner of Saguaro Boulevard and Paul Nordin Parkway, to allow conversion of the existing hotel into apartments and four short-term rental units. SUP23-000004 The following residents provided written statements stating that they were against the project: Sherry Lyons Melisa Weedo Carrie Martinez Linda Washut Kathleen Kellenberg Jean Caskey Sharon Campbell The following residents addressed the Commission: Crystal Cavanaugh Planning and Zoning Commission May 8, 2023 3 of 4 Larry Meyers Amy Bennett MOVED BY Commissioner Dempster to recommend the Town Council deny the SPECIAL USE PERMIT for residential use of commercially zoned property at 12800 N. Saguaro Boulevard, the northwest corner of Saguaro Boulevard and Paul Nordin Parkway, to allow conversion of the existing hotel into apartments and four short-term rental units. SECONDED BY Commissioner Corey. Vote: 5-1 passed Commissioner Corey Aye Commissioner Dapaah Aye Commissioner Dempster Aye Commissioner Watts Aye Vice Chairman Schlossberg Nay Chairman Peter Gray Aye 8. HOLD A PUBLIC HEARING, CONSIDERATION, AND POSSIBLE DIRECTION: A request for approval of a Special Use Permit to permit up to 10 apartments in three buildings on a .33-acre parcel located at 16741 E. Glenbrook, the southwest corner of Glenbrook Boulevard and Fountain Hills Boulevard. SUP23-000001 MOVED BY Commissioner Corey to recommend the Town Council approve the SPECIAL USE PERMIT up to 10 apartments in three buildings on a .33-acre parcel located at 16741 E. Glenbrook, the southwest corner of Glenbrook Boulevard and Fountain Hills Boulevard. SECONDED BY Commissioner Watts. Vote: 6 - 0 unanimously Commissioner Corey Aye Commissioner Dapaah Aye Commissioner Dempster Aye Commissioner Watts Aye Vice Chairman Schlossberg Aye Chairman Peter Gray Aye 9. CONSIDERATION AND POSSIBLE DIRECTION: Modifications to Chapter 6, Sign Regulations, of the Zoning Ordinance. Agenda item #10 was continued to the Planning & Zoning Commission June 12, 2023 meeting. 10. SUMMARY OF COMMISSION REQUESTS from Development Services Director. 11. REPORT from Development Services Director. 12. ADJOURNMENT Chairman Gray adjourned the Regular meeting of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission held on May 8, 2023, at 9:25 p.m. PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION Chairman Peter Gray ATTESTED AND PREPARED BY Paula Woodward, Executive Assistant Planning and Zoning Commission May 8, 2023 4 of 4 CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Regular Meeting held by the Planning and Zoning Commission, Fountain Hills in the Town Hall Council Chambers on May 8, 2023. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. DATED this day of May 30, 2023. Paula Woodward, Executive Assistant TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 1 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 1 of 72 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes May 8, 2023 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 2 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 2 of 72 GRAY: All right. Let's go ahead and call this meeting to order, please. This is the May 8th venue of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission. If you would all please rise with us for the pledge of allegiance and a moment of silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [MOMENT OF SILENCE] GRAY: Thank you. Okay. Paula, roll call, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? GRAY: Here. WOODWARD: And Commissioner Kovacevic is excused absence. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Agenda item 3, Call to the Public. Paula, do we have any open speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Moving right along. Agenda item number 4, consideration and action on the regular meeting minutes from the April 10th, 2023 venue. Commissioners any discussion or motion, please? Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: I'd like to make a motion to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission, April 10th, 2023. WATTS: Second. GRAY: Commissioner Watts seconds. All in favor? ALL: Aye. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 3 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 3 of 72 WOODWARD: Six, zero. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. All right. Now, we're going to break protocol here very quickly. We've got agenda item 5, 6, and 7 are all public hearings. Sorry. 5, 6, 7, and 8 are all public hearings on various requests. Informal show of hands. I'd like to see who in the audience is here for agenda item 6, which is the 16 licensed beds at 16602 East Palisades. And then agenda item 7, which is a special use permit to rezone the hotel at Saguaro Boulevard. Okay. John, the applicant is here for agenda item 7? Commissioners, in the interest of the majority of citizens here in the audience tonight, we're going to move agenda item 7 up in the agenda to now be agenda item 5. And then we will flip-flop 5 and 6. So we'll go 7, 6, 5, 8 on our order today. So with that, our new agenda item 4 is a public hearing consideration and possible action on a request to approve a special use permit for residential use of the commercially zoned property at Saguaro Boulevard on the northwest corner of Saguaro and Paul Nordin Parkway to allow conversion of the existing hotel into apartments and four short-term rental units. Mr. Wesley, your presentation, please. WESLEY: Commissioners, good evening. We'll go through this, I think, fairly quickly. So just a little background. The property is zoned C-2. There was a little confusion early on when the applicant initially made his application and we sent out the initial notice. Our zoning map showed the property zoned TCCD, the town center commercial district. As we did further research though, and in evaluating the report, we found that our map was wrong. That somehow it inadvertently changed a few years ago and was, in fact, still zoned C-2 as was some of the adjacent property. So a hotel was constructed on the property in 2006. There have been several owners/operators of that hotel over time. The current owner has had some discussions off and on with staff about some modifications, adding some separate apartment units in back, converting the third floor to apartments; discussions along that line. They've had a permit for the third floor to add some kitchenettes into existing units. So some of that work has been ongoing. A new owner of the property is seeking to convert the entire building to apartments. C-2 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 4 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 4 of 72 zoning district does not allow residential uses by right. There's two options then to address that to get to where they want to be. One would be to rezone to a residential zoning district -- multi-residential zoning district. Our high end is the R-5, given the size of the property it would allow 80 units. They're looking to get 94. So the R-5 didn't work. The other option is a special use permit in the C-2 district. So that's the option that the applicant has taken is to request that special use permit. So here we see the property in the light blue area. The hotel that's there at Paul Nordin Parkway and Saguaro Boulevard. And you can see the surrounding zoning with the TCCD to the north. The PAD for the Morningside to the west. C-2 to the south and TCCD to the east. This property to the south is similar to this with a C-2 zoning, it has a special use permit for the residential in that situation. As noted in the staff report there's some others further to the west, along El Lago and then as we get up on Avenue of the Fountains there are a half dozen or so properties with a C-2 zoning and a special use permit for residential use. The general plan and downtown specific plans provide some guidance for this. The general plan encourages a range of housing types and densities in the community to provide for a variety of residents that might want to make Fountain Hills their home. It also encourages protection on maintaining character of a given neighborhood. And when we say neighborhood, we're not just talking residential but it can be different types of neighborhoods. And it also encourage and allow the town center to achieve its full potential within the town center specific plan. That's divided into eight different districts. This particular property is in the Avenue district, which is encouraged to be the town's premier shopping district, provide a variety of uses and suggest that some housing would be appropriate but lists it as small, as a brownstone style housing. As a special use permit, Section 2.02(F)(1)(d), provides guidance to the Council on their review and recommendation. And that approval should be based on, "will not be detrimental to the public health, safety, peace, comfort, and general welfare of persons residing or working in the neighborhood of such proposed use, nor shall it be detrimental or injurious to property improvements in the neighborhood or to the general welfare of the town". So looking at this request with two ideas in mind, will be the proposed use be detrimental TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 5 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 5 of 72 to the public health, safety, peace, and welfare goal? Again, in the town center plan is to have a vibrant town center. And so what might contribute to that in terms of the mix of uses and will this use impact that? There are a number of existing vacant commercial properties in the town center area that haven't been developed yet, and a number of buildings that aren't fully utilized. So in that regard there's several places in the town center where commercial could happen versus on this particular property. A hotel, however, we see as a very important use in our town center area, particularly so close to the lake and the fountain. A great place proximity to the different events and festivals that happen along the Avenue. So we have enjoyed and appreciated having a hotel downtown and I think that is a use that can be part of that vibrant mix for the town center. Will use be detrimental or injurious to property improvements? Again, a variety of housing types and densities are desired. The building already exists. They're planning to utilize the existing footprint and the existing floors. There will be no outside changes except for the need to add a few parking spaces to meet the code for that. So that would not change. Currently we have people that will come and go on a very short-term basis as they stay in the hotel. With the change, we would have permanent residents living there on a longer term basis and providing maybe more consistent population for the downtown and for the community. Also with the proposal that many of these will be studio and one-bedroom apartments, more likely going to be more affordable for workers for local restaurants and other businesses in the town center area. So that could be a benefit for the community and benefit the businesses. The existing building is not really designed for a retail use, given its orientation and where the parking is and so forth. It will be difficult to have that actually retrofitted for that type of use. And a vacant or underutilized building could be injurious to the community in the downtown area. Staff did not require a good neighbor policy with this. Given the nature of this use we didn't see that it was necessarily important. If the Commission disagrees, we could require the applicant to provide such a statement as part of an approval. They did go through the citizen participation process; 11 people attended the meeting they held. They did not report any significant comments. We have had, prior to today, just a few TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 6 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 6 of 72 comments have come in, several more came in today and I think we have got several people here wishing to speak about it this evening. So with that, this proposed reuse of this building we think, overall, is consistent with both the general plan and the downtown specific plan, although the hotel would be also. So they're both very good uses for the area. Staff is recommending approval. Any questions that you have? GRAY: Commissioners, questions of John? WESLEY: Oh, I will -- no. never mind. I was going to mention something but that's actually on my other case. I won't mention it until we get to that case. GRAY: John, I was just going to ask. Has economic development weighed in on their position? WESLEY: Yes, Chairman. I visited with our economic development director several times about this. We both started off with a desire to try to keep the hotel, seeing that it's been an overall benefit to the town for several reasons. But the more we got into it, I guess, probably, I don't know if ambivalent is really quite the right word, but maybe resigned to a change or accepting of a change. Again, a hotel would be very desirable if it could really function as a hotel and be successful. But I believe that they feel that the change to apartments also has its benefits of again providing people who can be workers in the town center area as well as consistent occupancy. GRAY: Vice Chairman? SCHLOSSBERG: Yes, sir. Do you have a -- my mic on? I guess -- do you have a timeline of the history of the hotel, basically, from the day it opened? And I believe, at that time, it was a brand-name hotel and how many different entities it's been from that day until present? WESLEY: Chairman, Vice Chair, no. I thought about that a few times as I work on this but never did go back and really try to resurrect that full history. I just know it has changed several times. Even the four years I've been here, it's changed two or three times. SCHLOSSBERG: And are there any kind of occupancy numbers on the -- I'm assuming it's functioning as a hotel right now; at least the bottom three floors? WESLEY: So Chairman, Vice Chair, I believe portion of it is still functioning. I think TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 7 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 7 of 72 most of the current remodel work has been on the third floor. The applicant's here, he could probably give you more detail on that. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. WESLEY: And no, I don't have any specific numbers. Just in general, talking to the finance director in terms of what he can see with regard to the sales tax revenues, it has been low. So indicating it hasn't been occupied very much. SCHLOSSBERG: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: John, do you know what the breakdown is between studios, one-bedroom, two- bedrooms? WESLEY: I believe it was in the attachment. I don't have that right in front of me. Again, the applicant will be able to confirm that when he's up here. WATTS: Yeah. I went through that and I had a hard time figuring it out with all the different colors and the things that were going on. And has the study on the sales tax component -- because the sales tax is significantly reduced going to leases as opposed to motels; about five percent. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Your microphone's not working. WATTS: Microphone not working? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Sorry. WOODWARD: Just try and -- try and get a little closer. WATTS: Okay. Mine never works? Right. Okay. So the sales tax -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I don't think it's (indiscernible). WATTS: The sales tax component looks like it's significantly reduced and if you say apples is apples and you're 100 percent occupancy leased or rented for short-term rentals, it looks like it's down by 5.3 percent. Has anybody studied that impact to see what it would do to the coffers of the town? WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner Watts, no, we have not done that specifically. WATTS: Okay. And along with the impact on the sales tax component, and the reason I want to know about the studios and one-bedroom is because the current listed rate of 1,495 per month, seems to be outside what I would call the norms as far as what percentage of your net income should be applicable to rent. So in this town, we're in a 16 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 8 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 8 of 72 to $18 range as far as compensation for the people that are struggling -- the companies or the organizations that are struggling for people. And I don't see how you can support it, the 1,495 with studio apartments. So I really want to know what the -- and maybe I'll ask the applicant what the breakdown is studio and one-bedroom. GRAY: John, just fundamentally, what's the difference between -- I guess, let me ask a different way. The property could be operated on a long-term rental base, almost mimicking apartments under a hotel licensure, couldn't it? WESLEY: Chairman, yes. The definition of hotel includes dwelling units. So we know of extended stay hotels. So you could have something similar to that happen. There's also, at some point, the expectation of what is a hotel in terms of how reservations work and having the desk clerks and all of those things that you see in a hotel, versus what you'd see in just an apartment complex. Where that break is, would be hard to say exactly. But certainly, in terms of having extended stay hotel, that is possible. GRAY: And then, the special use permit would run with the land, right? It would run with the property but a reversion back to a hotel would or would not require being revisited through this process? WESLEY: Yes, Chairman. Once the special use permit is issued and implemented, then it would run with the land . If someone wanted to come back and turn it back into a hotel, that would not require any specific action to come back through the town hearing process because it is a use by right. GRAY: Thank you, John. Do we have a presentation from the applicant? WESLEY: The applicant is here. I think he would like to speak. GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Just one more thing on the sales tax. If you took it as a hotel and long-term rentals on it and applied that incremental difference of 5.3 percent, you're going to add another $75 or so to the base price of the 1,495 that is currently listed. Making it even more difficult to hit that $40,000 mark. I don't think the $40,000 mark for a particular unit is reasonable. So I'd be concerned about that as well. And you say the town is not -- whether it's a -- I don't know who would do this. Is it the Chamber of Commerce that would give us some input on the impact on losing hotel lodging across from the fair? We've got a lot of activities go on there. We'd lose all of that if it converts to apartments. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 9 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 9 of 72 WESLEY: That's correct, we would. WATTS: Okay. GRAY: Commissioners, anything more for John, or should we call the applicant? SCHLOSSBERG: Let's call the applicant. BROWN: Good afternoon. Appreciate an opportunity to speak to you today. A couple of things are going to become apparent very quickly. The first one is I'm not a Chinese national and -- that was humor, just a little bit, it will lighten a little bit. So I am a third-generation native Arizona. I've been around here for a long time and have been part of Fountain Hills or through -- participated in Fountain Hills since high school teenage years. So I feel like Scottsdale and the Fountain Hills areas are part of my heritage as well. So when I came across this project I was blown away by the possibilities that exist here. And so I've been excited and I've worked on this now for about ten months, getting it to the place that we are today. And I brought some displays that would show you some of the changes that we're attempting to make. And some of the questions that you've asked already of John this evening, I may have answers for you. I think I have answers for those things. But let me start first with what seems to me to be our biggest challenge and that is as a hotel it has 104 units and out of the 104, 84 of them are studios, and 20 of them are one- bedroom suites. I felt like that might be a little bit of a challenge to fill that portion of it and so we began reassessing the building itself and wherever we found clusters of three studios side by side, we have elected to take out the middle one, put a bedroom on either side and kind of flip those numbers around. And so what we end up with we lose a few, we end up with only 94. So the number of units in the building itself drops from 104 to 94, but the split flips, there'll be 30 -- actually 29 studios and 61 one-bedroom. And then, in the current restaurant space, there will actually be three two-bedroom suites and a one-bedroom in those locations. And so we tried to address that particular issue. And then another question that we dealt with as a group, we pulled out an appraisal on the property as well as a CoStar report. I don't know if you're familiar with a CoStar, it's kind of a commercial real estate report of the whole area and revealed some of the things that we thought we know. And one of those was that for the area, the rent at the amount that we have shows low and suggest that we might go another 100 or so, higher than that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 10 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 10 of 72 number. And that's to compete with, essentially, the market. The interesting thing about this part of the city is that there really aren't any studio apartments around, for about 15 miles at least, that came up on the report. So if there are a few there are not very many of them. So this is adding that element to it that is currently at least not a overabundance of units. And let me think what else. The intent is that we will leave the footprint the way that it is. In future years we may look at some parking issues, covered parking or a parking structure or something else to help alleviate some of the other problems. But those are future projects. Right now, the intent is the exterior will remain as it is now. We just went through and had the exterior painted and so you probably wouldn't have noticed that painting because it was the same colors done again. But it has a new coat of paint and the roof is in excellent shape. And so there isn't any intent to make any changes to the footprint. However, becoming an apartment we will be a little concerned about the exterior appearance. It appears to be rather bland from an aesthetic point of view. And a significant amount of colored vegetation in front, back, and sides. So obviously, we're concerned about people driving up, getting a feel for the appearance of the property and that's going to be a big factor we'll need to continue to maintain. That's all I really had to talk. I'm certainly open to questions now we're after the citizen input. GRAY: Commissioners, any questions of the applicant? Go ahead. DAPAAH: Sir, can you tell us as little bit more about what you plan to do to the interior? Perhaps the mechanical system, air exchanges for the building, windows, those kind of things? BROWN: Okay. Sure. Thank you. For the most part, the way that it's designed currently, will stay that way. We're not anticipating a change. Those are great R-value windows on there and so the anticipation is that that would stay. We're not really anticipating a lot of change to the common area, so the front lobby area would remain mostly intact. The back lobby, the pool area, the spa, the gym room, equipment room, all of those common areas, the intent is to leave them the way that they are. On the ground floor, there are hotel offices that would not be needed in an apartment and so we would anticipate filling those with also apartment units. Let's see. Mechanical equipment would stay intact. This is a fairly young building for this kind of TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 11 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 11 of 72 a conversion and it doesn't make sense to look at any major systems. Because it's operating as a hotel, it's master metered for electric and water. Hot water comes out of a boiler system and so makes it extremely difficult to try to do any kind of metering that would change any of that. And so the anticipation is that we wouldn't. Arizona Corporation Commission allows for a RUBS system where we're able to equitably distribute the cost of utilities. And so the anticipation is that we would leave it the way it is and utilize that RUBS system. Did I hit everything? DAPAAH: Well, so windows are staying the same? BROWN: Yes. DAPAAH: Do they open? BROWN: No. DAPAAH: No? They don't open. So no one will have windows that they can open? BROWN: Correct. DAPAAH: Okay. What about trash management? BROWN: Okay. Let me touch on a little bit more with the windows. Because that means to some extent people are kind of trapped inside for just their daily use. And so the anticipation is, we have a very large courtyard protected on three sides, especially in the heat of the summer where you've got quite a bit of shade. And so we're going to spend a good amount of money there with gazebos and seating areas, outdoor barbecues, a pet run area, that sort of thing. So we're going to try to enhance that for more utilization by the residents. And so -- and then what was the second thing? DAPAAH: Trash management. BROWN: Trash. DAPAAH: And then, if you can, please touch a little bit on your current life safety system and what you're going to do or what you plan to do to enhance that as you're retrofitting the whole building? BROWN: So as far as the life systems, my understanding is that this building was built and designed with those windows being closed all the time and so each four corners of the building has stairwells that allows ample opportunities to get out of the building. And so my understanding is that with that design, the fire systems are not required to have windows that open. Obviously, the entire building has sprinkler systems and alarm TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 12 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 12 of 72 systems and everything is set. But we did address that with planning and zoning to make sure that we meet all of the code requirements for those systems. And twice now, I forgot what the other thing was. DAPAAH: Trash management. BROWN: Trash management, thank you. Yes, in this facility the only trash dumpsters right now are back in the far corner. And so the anticipation is because it's kind of a U- shape, at the end of the Us there is an opportunity to put a trash can at the bottom there and from each floor to have a shute to be able to shoot from wherever that residence is to be able to hit those trash cans. So we will be bringing cans closer to the building with an enclosure and a shute to be able to catch that trash. But that is on the backside of the building. And there's talk as well that we'll provide a trash service that if they want to set their trash out or have a time that we can pick up trash to be able to provide that for them as well. So it's a matter of what the tenants would want to utilize. DAPAAH: Okay. So if I may, one more question? Yeah? So you're saying windows don't open. I've never really stayed there, so I'm not sure what each individual equipment that handles the indoor cooling and heating -- what do you have? Some heat pumps that are sitting in each room? BROWN: Each room either has a split unit and controlled within the unit or a PTAC on the wall. So exterior view of the building, you see most of them have the PTAC air conditioning units. But there have been a substantial number of split AC units with the compressor on the roof and the handler on the inside of the unit. One of the unique things, the way that we're splitting the rooms up to create the one bedrooms, the unit that has the wider part of the hallway and the narrower part at the window, the wide part wouldn't be served by a PTAC. So in every one of those units we've got to do a split unit. DAPAAH: Okay. BROWN: So we will be adding some those on the roof area. DAPAAH: Are they equipped to bring in fresh air? BROWN: There is fresh air brought into the building in a couple of vent systems throughout, yes. DAPAAH: Throughout -- BROWN: Yes. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 13 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 13 of 72 DAPAAH: -- the building? How is that set up? BROWN: And that was a part of the original hotel that in the laundry room -- behind the laundry rooms on each of the floor -- the two corners, there are blower systems that ventilate through the building. DAPAAH: In the laundry rooms? BROWN: Well, that passes through the laundry room. That's where the handlers are, so that's where I've seen them. DAPAAH: Okay. Good. Are the common areas conditioned? BROWN: The common areas are conditioned separate from the individual units, yes. DAPAAH: Okay. BROWN: There is a large -- a couple of large units that handle all of the common areas, hallways, and lobby areas down below. DAPAAH: Okay. All right. So I'm asking these because today we're living in an age of infection prevention, okay. So indoor air quality is a big deal. And if you're looking to make this a multi-use community -- well not a multi-use community, but multi-housing community, that's a major concern for the community as well. So this is the reason why I was asking more about this indoor air quality matter but I'll leave it here. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yes. Is it Roy? BROWN: Yes. COREY: Okay. Thank you, Roy. So I think one of the things we'll hear tonight is that this kind of a staple hotel that's been in town for a while and if we -- BROWN: Yes. COREY: -- are losing the rooms that's going to be a significant impact to the town. So I see you have -- you're proposing four Airbnb units on the front of the building? BROWN: Yes. COREY: So I'm just curious what the thought process was behind four and having all the others as rental units? And where did that come about and are there any opportunities to kind of pivot that a little bit? Because I think what we'll hear is having some hotel like business there is going to be valuable to the town. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 14 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 14 of 72 BROWN: Yes. Those really came about in part because of the zoning requirement that every bedroom has to have a window. And so this about a 6,000 square foot space that's -- I mean, generally, it's a rectangle. And so that doesn't allow for windows in other locations. And so that kind of, based on the number of windows ended up the number of units that we could put in there and still utilize that space. And so that's kind of where the numbers came from. The unique thing about those particular units is while in the building itself we might have square footage between 500 and 800 square feet, there we've got a 1,000, 1,500 kind of square footage. And so I know that when there are craft fairs and other events held in the park that's right there, my opinion is that those would be utilized heavily by some of those kind of uses that would come into town. As well, we've got some doctors that Mayo behind us that might utilize those for the short time frame or patients or families of patients kind of thing. So the intent was it didn't really work to take those and try to make those into rental units, apartment units like the rest of the building. And because it's isolated and it has the unique opportunity of that view and the space on Saguaro, meaning that there's no neighbors around there that a few hours on the patio late at night would not disrupt. And so if there's a place for an Airbnb, that's probably it, rather than in a residential neighborhood and some of those other issues. But we're not slamming the door on any other options. But as we looked at many, that really came out as the best use of that space. COREY: Okay. And how would those operate? So they're Airbnb so there wouldn't be any concierge or anything there for them, they book online and just -- BROWN: Correct. COREY: -- like we would do an Airbnb for a house or something. BROWN: Although, because of the number of units in the apartments, there will be fulltime onsite management. And so it won't be a vacant building without anybody around. And so the thought is that we're not looking to do daily rentals but possibly three, four, five days at a time, or a week or more. And so a manager onsite would be able to facilitate that fairly easy. COREY: Okay. Okay. Thank you. BROWN: Thank you. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 15 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 15 of 72 GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. Hello. BROWN: Hello. DEMPSTER: I would like to kind of take a step back and why the change from a hotel? Why the change? Why not keep the hotel and why apartments? BROWN: You know, when I stepped into this thing I thought holy smokes, this is a gold mine kind of an opportunity. And it didn't take me very long to go back to the broker and say why is this a gold mine? Why is this not successful as a hotel? And we had a couple of conversations about that, that this has had four or five -- I think it's actually had six change of ownership since original construction. And I don't know anything about any of the previous owners, but I can tell you that the guy that owns it now owns several buildings around, in Scottsdale and in other places. And so this is not a novice who doesn't know what he's doing. He came in here with a lot of knowledge and spent millions of dollars upgrading the entire building. And yet, it still is in this place where they haven't been able to consistently overcome that 30 percent annual occupancy. And that kind of occupancy is death for a business. And so -- I'm sorry. Go ahead. DEMPSTER: No, well, I'm thinking along the lines -- a couple of things. It's Best Western partnership. BROWN: Yes. DEMPSTER: If I may say, Best Western is known for a more bargain economy kind of stay. And Fountain Hills is probably maybe a little above the economy bargain hotel. So people may not be even -- it might not be on peoples' radar because they're not -- they might be like, oh, Best Western. BROWN: True. DEMPSTER: And so I don't know if you can speak to that if a different, like a Hilton Property or some program with a little better reputation. BROWN: I've had -- thank you, for that question. Because I've had a couple of conversations about that. The way that the hotel is built, it doesn't really apply to the Hilton footprint. The units are relatively small for what would normally be a Hilton. It would enhance, in my opinion, the summer -- excuse me, the winter occupancy, but the challenge with this structure, this building, both the restaurant and the hotel, is that this is TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 16 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 16 of 72 a sleepy community in the summertime. And there are not very many businesses like this that has this kind of dollars involved that can survive that downtime. It doesn't say anything about how vibrant it is and what the tone of the town is. It really is that it's sleepy in the summer and that's definitely death for a restaurant. The current owner made multiple attempts to occupy the space with the -- the restaurant space with a restaurant and it never got off the ground. Nobody could -- I don't say nobody, I wasn't there. But they haven't been able to pencil that in and make it successful for somebody to buy into it. I don't pretend to know all of the history and all of the background and all of that, but in my short conversations kind of asking the same questions that you're wondering about, that was the answers that I got. DEMPSTER: Yeah. And again, I don't know who they spoke to either but if you look at Euro Pizza Cafe and All American Grill, they're very viable businesses year round. And based on reputation as well, consistent good food, good service. So it's curious. Can you speak a little bit about, will these units have their own laundry and kitchens? It looks like you spoke to efficiency kitchens. Can you tell us what the kitchens would be like? BROWN: Yes. The current hotel has a little mini bar. The current one-bedrooms have a wet bar, but the others are just a little mini bar cabinet with a mini refrigerator. Those are all coming out. That's what the biggest part of our renovation is. They're coming out. We're putting a full-size kitchen sink with a hotplate stovetop and a convection oven microwave and a full-size refrigerator, and then a full wall of cabinets to match that. And so it is not a mini kitchen at all, it's a full-size for this -- comparable for the size of the unit. DEMPSTER: And will they each -- BROWN: And the other thing was laundry -- DEMPSTER: Laundry. BROWN: -- you'd asked. Each of the one-bedroom units have stackable washer/dryers in them. And for the 29 units that are left without a washer/dryer in the unit, the end of the buildings, I mentioned the trash area. That trash area would be attached to the laundry room. So there'll be five laundry rooms in the building itself. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 17 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 17 of 72 DEMPSTER: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Thank you. I haven't gotten an answer yet on the -- what are the size of the units? Studios and one-bedrooms? BROWN: The size of the units, the original -- the studios that are left, start out at about 375 square feet. Where we've combined those with bedrooms to make those expanded, the numbers go up to about 700. So between 375 and 700 square feet. WATTS: For a studio? BROWN: The studio? I'm sorry. The studio -- WATTS: Studio's only, one-bedrooms only. BROWN: Yeah, you're right. I lumped them all together. The studios themselves are going to be somewhere between 375 and 500. WATTS: And the one-bedrooms? BROWN: And the one-bedrooms are about 500 to 750. WATTS: And I didn't hear anything about a dishwasher. BROWN: Most of the units will not have dishwashers. There will only be half a dozen units in there that have a dishwasher. WATTS: Okay. And to Commissioner Dapaah's comments about the central plan. You have individual units except for, I assume, the water system, the heating water systems? BROWN: No. the water system is on a boiler system. So the entire building is connected to a boiler system -- WATTS: That's what I mean. It's a central operation. So if it fails, everybody loses their hot water. BROWN: Yep. WATTS: Okay. BROWN: Yep, that's true. Yeah. WATTS: And this was probably thrown about, have you looked at the outside air requirements? Because it's becoming more and more stringent based upon EPA's requirements and how we're going to accommodate that. So I assume that's going to be taken care of when building plans are submitted; that fair? Okay. Thank you. BROWN: The other question that you had asked earlier, and I don't know that I TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 18 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 18 of 72 addressed that had to do with had to do with a decrease in tax revenue. KWATTS: Um-hum. BROWN: Currently, my understanding is with a hotel unit the tax revenue is about 14.1 percent and that half of that goes to Maricopa County and half of it stays in Fountain Hills. And so you've got about a seven percent tax rate. However, with an annual occupancy around 30 percent, the real dollars realized ends up being closer to like a 2 percent. But as a full apartment, the apartment would pay a 1.6 percent revenue tax or rent tax. And so 1.6 of a full building is really close to the 2 percent of a mostly vacant building. And so I think, when I did the analysis to be able to compare those two, the difference in funding was -- or the difference in fund to the town was nominal. And so I'm sure that you have better information from the town about what those actual revenues were. But it doesn't appear -- it certainly is not a six to one comparison as the numbers would imply. WATTS: Well, are numbers are slightly different. So I'll give you that. BROWN: Yeah. WATTS: The net effect though is that we will lose some percentage of revenue from a tax base. So that's in a nutshell. Whether it's minimal, nominal, or a lot is to be seen. BROWN: Yeah. The other side of that though, is now you've got the other 70 percent of the vacant building are now people who live in the neighborhood and will be spending their money here instead of taking their employment check and leaving the area. So probably offset by that to some extent. Those numbers are beyond me but it certainly ends up being a benefit. WATTS: Thank you. BROWN: All right. GRAY: Vice Chair? SCHLOSSBERG: I want to get back to the price point again. And you -- either I misheard or you alluded to the fact that you said based on the area, you could get more. What is the price point for the studio and what is the price point for the one-bedroom? BROWN: Well, they will change. As you know right now, the rental market is certainly in a state of flux. When we put the projections together, they started on a base for the studio units at 1,295. And for the one-bedroom units at 1,495. And those were adjusted TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 19 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 19 of 72 up based on actual square footage. It's a rectangle building and you probably imagine that all units are the same size, but there are actually 15 different floor footprints in that building. And so there will be an increase based on the size and also an increase based on the visibility, the view. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. So assuming this does come to fruition, the base price for a studio, the smallest one, is 1,295? BROWN: Yes, sir. SCHLOSSBERG: And then the base price for a one-bedroom is 1,495? BROWN: Yes, sir. SCHLOSSBERG: But that could be adjusted based on additional square footage up to? BROWN: Right now, the projection is the max for the one-bedroom is 1,700. And the CoStar suggests that that really is low. It should be closer to 1,850. And so we're not inclined to make that kind of a jump. If we get too full too fast, which is a really good problem to have. But if it does, we'll slow that down a little bit with a rent rate. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. And that means a studio would go to basically 1,500 then, base? BROWN: Well, whatever the market would take it to, yes. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: So I think the point you're trying to make, Commissioner Watts, as well, is that in our packet there's a pretense in here saying that a $40,000 income is supported or can support occupancy here. And the pretense that this development would support that class of compensation package doesn't work because we're looking at a $56,000 annual or better to afford and efficiency, so. SCHLOSSBERG: Right. GRAY: Yeah, I think that that's the point trying to be made here, so. Commissioners, any other questions of the applicant or John? No? Thank you. BROWN: All right. Thank you. GRAY: And we'll give you an opportunity to come back up, Mr. Brown. BROWN: All right. GRAY: Paula, do we have any speaker cards? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 20 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 20 of 72 WOODWARD: Yes, Chairman. There are three speakers, and then there were six written against the project. So we'll start with the three that want to speak. In order: Crystal Cavanaugh, Larry Meyers, and Amy Bennett (ph.). CAVANAUGH: Good evening. I just have some thoughts, not a whole long thing tonight. I'm trying to understand the sequence. That the owner purchased it as a hotel, but yet the next statement was they were almost surprised to see so many studio units. And that -- did they purchase it sight unseen? And at what point in time did they decide they better change courses because it was going to be very lucrative? And I don't even know the name of this hotel, for example. It's changed so much over the recent years. If I don't know the name of it, out of town people don't know the name of it. But if it was a name brand, they might be able to actually fill the hotel. And part of John Wesley's presentation, pointblank said the hotel provides a place for visitors for downtown events and tourism. And I'm thinking this is a very -- this doesn't seem like a good direction to go when we're also talking about bringing in a Dark Sky Discovery Center. If that comes to fruition, where are these people, from all over the world, going to stay? And obviously, we're a tourist town and we have a lot of events. And while whoever has purchased this may not be marketing it right, I think it could still be filled as a hotel if done correctly. And studios and one-bedrooms, they're very small ones. They're not really that affordable when you look at other things right in the downtown area. They're right about the same price. And in reality, there's no right to affordable housing in downtown Fountain Hills. With a premium lot, a premium view, that's going to be bring a premium price. And so I also was kind of surprised in the presentation from our town staff, that there was no need to consult the neighbors. I mean, this is going to be not the same as a hotel. It's increased traffic. When I go as a couple to stay in that tiny room, we're bringing one car to a hotel. If there's two people living in that small apartment, for sure you're going to have two cars. You can't get anywhere out of Fountain Hills without another car. So I don't see this as being a reasonable change in zoning. And I just feel like they didn't do their due diligence and now they want someone to help them get out of it. Thanks. MEYERS: Chair, Commissioners, so I want to talk a little bit about being shortsighted TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 21 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 21 of 72 and being farsighted. So I've been around long enough to see the long view. You're sitting in the long view. 1985 we started thinking about his place and the place next door and it didn't happen overnight. And we sure as shit didn't get rid of the land or you wouldn't have the building here. And that's what we've been doing to this vibrant downtown. We keep taking land that was proposed for one use and changing it into apartments. Barchay (ph.) has got a whole boatload of apartments and he's going to have even more apartments and that was an entertainment overlay district. Well, the excuse then was, well, we can't really fund the entertainment overlay and we can't have a movie theatre, and we can't have bars, and we can't have music, and we can't have this, and we can't have that; so let's build apartments. So along comes another developer in a long line of developers that I've seen since I've lived here since 1981, who makes an investment and then goes, oh, might not be the most profitable investment I've ever made. Let me come to the town and get bailed out. I'll change it from this to that, and then I can make some more money. Now, I don't know what we're going to do with more apartments in downtown Fountain Hills. But I can tell you one thing. You got a Chamber of Commerce, this city, and economic development director all trying to bring more events to Fountain Hills: car shows, art festivals, art walks, farmer's markets. They're trying to draw people here for events. Dark Sky planetariums. And now we're going to get rid of the one place, across from the one icon in the middle of town that houses people as a hotel, for the same of some 500 square foot apartments. I'm sorry. It's not a very long view. It's a short view. It's a short view for a guy who made an investment and he made the wrong investment, apparently, because the hotel's only 30 percent of the year. Well, I got news for you, Fountain Hills has been this way for as long as I've been here. The summer is dead. And guess what? Because the summer's dead, young people don't come here to live. So those studio apartments they're not going to be your workers from downtown. They're going to be the same people that travel on Shea Boulevard that can't afford to live in Scottsdale, that live in Mesa. And they go back and forth every day and that's -- you're just going to have the regular, old, same old apartment dwellers in just another apartment building downtown and you will lose the hotel which is designed to support the people that come to the car shows and the planetarium and the art festivals, and whatever else they're trying TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 22 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 22 of 72 to dream up. And I'm all for dreaming all of the events up. So I say keep the hotel. They're already operating as a rental unit because it's on Zillow. And that bothers me too. They should ask first and do second. Thank you. BENNETT: Good evening. I am one of the residents in the residential neighborhood next to the hotel that is going to be very disturbed by the parties at the Airbnb patio. And I think I speak for a couple of hundred other people in that area, because we can already hear Euro Pizza and that's fine. But having part-time partiers coming through, raising the roof, that's going to bother us. Fountain Hills -- I was concerned before I heard the presentation, but what I heard was a developer looking for, and I quote, a gold mine. Who doesn't understand the history of the hotel. He bought the hotel. And he doesn't appear to understand the history or the culture or the fabric of this town. It is a sleepy community. We don't want Airbnb parties going until midnight. That's not what we're looking for in our downtown. The comment about parking was beautiful. When people travel, they take one car. And it's here for part of the day and then it's gone. But when you have people living in a place, every adult pretty much has a car. So you're looking at between 94 and 188 cars fulltime, with people who are really not owners. So they're going to be voting down the school bonds. They're going to be voting down the road bonds. And they're going to be putting incredible wear and tear on our roads. And they're going to be using our schools. I do think we need a hotel. We have lots of retirees here, in smaller accommodations. They bring their families in, they put them in the hotel. It's a nice place to have your family. And that is a beautiful property, and I don't know the name of it either. Just Google, Fountain Hills hotel. It's not that hard. It seems that if you had bought a hotel you would have had a plan. We have a dramatic increase in apartments in Fountain Hills. We've got the Heavenly went in, we've got apartments in El Lago, on Gunsight. It seems like there is a real push to have apartments and that's bringing property values down. It's bringing town revenues down. And I also ask you to look at who's going to be living in them. Because if somebody is paying 1,200, 2,400 a month, that's a mortgage. So why not have them invest as residents and permanent -- people invested in the town? Instead of having temporary folks come through who are just one their way to someplace else. Thank you. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 23 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 23 of 72 GRAY: Paula, any more speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Thank you. Paula. All right. Let's go ahead and close the public hearing portion of the agenda item. I will bring John back up for any final questions. Commissioners? Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. Hi John. How many parking spaces are currently attached to the property? Do we know? WESLEY: So let me -- that showed up in the -- let me grab my -- DEMPSTER: I didn't see -- is it on here? WESLEY: The -- what I recall from that review is that there are exist -- well, there are existing 157. The table here says they need 161. I think it was more like 162 or 3 spaces that they would need. So they are, as I recall, five or six short. And they would fit -- let's see if this -- is that on? No, I guess not. In the back corner of the existing hotel unit or hotel. On the western wing there is an area there, just west of that loading space where the spaces could go. DEMPSTER: So 157, so that's roughly one -- say one spot for the studios and like one and a half for the one-bedrooms. WESLEY: So yes. Commissioner Dempster, the requirement is 1.75 per studio and per one-bedroom. DEMPSTER: Okay. I'm curious if the hotel was a member of the Chamber of Commerce, do you know? WESLEY: No. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Vice Chair. SCHLOSSBERG: We may need Roy back up here for this. I want to go back to the occupancy and the percent -- I know there was a 30 percent annual thrown out there but I want to find. Does anybody have statistics, seasonal statistics, historical statistics, other than just 30 percent? I'm trying to find out -- during season, in other words, January and February and March, is occupancy 60 percent, is it 50 percent, is it 30 percent then as well? WESLEY: Can't really answer that. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 24 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 24 of 72 SCHLOSSBERG: Well, nobody knows? I guess nobody knows. Okay. I don't get an answer. Thank you. GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think I had the same question. Is the 30 percent, doesn't make a lot of sense. If most times when you look at a financial analysis of a property, you're going to have some sort of a cashflow on a graph, a wave, something. So you're going to know, fundamentally, is the property as a hotel financially viable, and is this just an alternate or -- and you don't have to answer the question because I probably don't have any right to know. Is it just another way to make more money? BROWN: (indiscernible). WATTS: You can -- BROWN: I think I can be heard if I say that from here? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, go up. BROWN: Well, contrary to what's been expressed so far, I haven't actually closed escrow and don't own the building. So if it really wasn't making any sense or wouldn't work the way that it is, you know, I have the opportunity to bow out of it still. However, I went in -- I did not go into it and get into a problem and then attempt to fix that. What was listed for sale was the third floor, with the intent that the first two floors would remain as a hotel. I have enough experience with property management to say, oh, my goodness what a nightmare that would be. And so when I put it in escrow, I put the entire building in escrow with the plan that when the -- the entire building would need to be converted in order for it to make it viable. And so I hesitate to even kind of hint towards the question from Scott, but this last year we had Superbowl, we had Phoenix open. We had Barrett Jackson, we had all of these activities going on, not to mention all of the activities in the town itself, and the third floor was not a part of it. So if you can kind of take general numbers that the third floor is kind of never really been filled to capacity during the seasons. So that's what prompted the overall. And I apologize, I don't know the hotel numbers because from day one, I never intended to buy a hotel or to operate a hotel. It has always been my plan that the building would be converted or it doesn't make sense. WATTS: Well, hopefully, at a minimum, we've at least piqued some questions for you to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 25 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 25 of 72 ask. BROWN: Well, I actually have a whole lot more answers than -- that have been here and I can assure you that in the ten months that I've been working on this I have hundreds of spreadsheets of information, looking at different scenarios and different options. And I'm extremely solid in the viability of this product and this location. And there are future options to be able to help with a couple of the other problems, like parking, which is a big problem. But the overall thing to remember is if there was a Hilton or someone else who was running this hotel, then you wouldn't have the 30 percent occupancy. You'd have the 90 or 100 percent occupancy, and all of the parking problems would be there and all of the traffic problems would be there, exactly the same as what you're afraid of as an apartment building. However, when somebody goes online and rents a unit, rents a hotel, you really have no control on who shows up. With an apartment building you have an application process, you have background checks, and things that you go through. The clientele of an apartment building is going to be way more stable than what you're going to get when anybody can walk in and rent a -- or not even walk in. They do it online and show up. So I've noticed in the time that I've been here, roving gangs of motorcycles in the back. Now, I don't mean -- that was probably an overstatement. The roving gangs now have grey hair like I do. So they're not dangerous gangs. But I mean there's a lot of motor -- that's a great place to come and to go for a ride. The times that I've been here, lots of home, motorhomes and all to -- I mean, so that kind of element is in there. We don't -- you don't have control on that when you have a hotel. But when you have an apartment, you do. So I think overall, for the town, this will be an upgrade for some of these kind of problems that are here. Or the potential could be here. And of course, I don't know. If you're aware of what's happening right now in the country's economy, there are quite a few hotels, exactly like this, that are nonperforming, that are being filled with immigrants that you have no control over and that becomes a really big problem. So having a failing -- a building like this right in your town center puts you in a very -- in my opinion, a very vulnerable position that having a thriving, successful business would eliminate. So I don't know, I think all in all, I'm not an outside investor. I might not live in Fountain TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 26 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 26 of 72 Hills itself, but like I said, I'm a native. This is my home and so I'm not just out here trying to flip it and make a buck. This is a really good product that I think the town needs as well. GRAY: Thanks. John can I ask you -- I recall the Park Place, I don't remember which phase that is, but the phase that's to the -- well, that's adjacent there to the -- I guess, that's north, northwest. I remember that development kind of having a poll through component. Was there engagement between that phase of the Park Place development and this adjacent property? Or am I misremembering that? WESLEY: I think you're misremembering. GRAY: Didn't we have a poll through? SCHLOSSBERG: We talked about it but it never happened. WESLEY: Right. The early phases, early concepts had -- we discussed the potential of connecting the parking lots but that was never pursued. It didn't happen. GRAY: Is that a conversation to be reopened? WESLEY: Not at this point. The way it's been designed for the underground parking at that phase, the access happens, kind of, to the northwest corner of this site and there really would be no way to come back and tie it together. GRAY: I thought the council liked talking about Park Place. No? Too soon? All right. Commissioners, any other thoughts, comments. Commissioner Dempster, sorry. DEMPSTER: Yes. Just a couple of comments. With rentals, it's my understanding there's a lot more rules with fair housing. So just want to throw that out there. And also, I did a little research too. Yes, Fountain Hills is a sleepy town in the summer but the Comfort Inn and the Inn at Eagle Mountain are already sold out and full for the 2024 season. So I think that there is a need for -- because of our events and the future of the Dark Sky, and you even mentioned Mayo yourself. I know, being in the business we have an awful lot of patients that come here temporarily. So I do think this could be a viable hotel. And I think it is needed in our downtown area. Those are just my thoughts. GRAY: Commissioners, any other final thoughts? Commissioner Dapaah? Commissioner Corey? COREY: Just some comments to kind of echo what Commissioner Dempster was TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 27 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 27 of 72 saying. I also don't know the name of the hotel. And I don't want to get into the operations of the hotel but I know I've been to that restaurant in the front of the hotel many times in the last seven years that I've been here. There were community events there. It's a great place to get different organizations together. I think there's a part of this that raising awareness with the community, getting the community involved to know what the hotel is, hosting events there, getting involved in the running of the community, and that could help bring awareness to it. I would prefer to see that there's some marketing and changes done to help; to see how we can make this feasible, before making a drastic change like this. So yeah. GRAY: Vice Chair, anything? Just ahead of any motion here, I also concur with Commissioner Dempster and Commissioner Corey. I think it's too soon to write off this property and convert it. I think the merits of the conversion are there. I appreciate the diligence that the applicant has put in and I appreciate the vision that that he has for the property. I just think with what's planned up at Centennial Plaza, with the Park Place development that we belabored through this venue and the Council as well for many, many sessions, I think it's too soon. Too soon, too early. Maybe in the future we'd reconsider this. But I'm going to be a vote to deny here this evening. So Commissioners, would anyone like to make a recommendation? Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Sure. I move to deny the approval of case SUP23-00004, allowing up to 94 dwelling units. COREY: Second. GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Dempster has made a motion to recommend denial to the town council. Commissioner Corey, that was a second? COREY: Second. GRAY: Thank you. Paula, could we do a rollcall vote, please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 28 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 28 of 72 DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Nay. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Five, one. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Okay. In our reorder here, Farhad's up. We're going to move up the agenda to agenda item number 6. Public hearing and consideration on the special use permit 23-0 -- a lot of zeroes and a two at the end. Farhad, let's give the room just a minute to clear. Farhad, your presentation, please. TAVASSOLI: Very good. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the commission. I'm going to speak as closely as I can into this microphone. So as you said Mr. Chairman, this is a special use permit request before you for a 16-bed home for the aged. The site is at the northeast corner of Westby and Palisades Boulevard just north of here. The -- sorry, as you can see here outlined in red, it's a little over a third of an acre. Now, it is important to note that currently this home, which is about 4,500 square feet is currently operating as an assisted living facility for the elderly, with a total of ten beds. Now granted that certain distance requirements are met, and more specifically distance requirements between other assisted living facilities that exceed no more than ten beds, this is a use that's currently allowed by right. It has been licensed as a ten-bed assisted living facility since 2005, as our records indicate. And so once we go above ten beds, that's when it becomes more commercial in character. Thus it comes before you today as a proposed 16-bed facility, in the case which a special use permit would be required. A little bit about the zoning. The property itself is zoned R-3, which is one of the several multi-family designations. As are the properties to the north and east, and to the west as well, across the street from Westby. To the south you have the Heavenly development that's, for the most part, complete as well as the Bash Center and the CVS facility -- CVS store rather, here, catty corner to the site. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 29 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 29 of 72 And again, as I mentioned, this is a special use permit for a home for the aged. The applicant is requesting six additional beds for a total of 16 altogether. I may have said earlier it's about 4,500 square feet. It's actually a little bit less than that. And currently there are two to three live-in caregivers at the facility given -- depending on the level of service that is needed. With a special use permit for the 16-bed total there would be a total of three to four live-in caregivers to accommodate the patients. GRAY: Farhad -- TAVASSOLI: Yes. GRAY: Just so we don't have to come back. Is 16 total occupancy inclusive of the caregivers or is it 16 plus the three to four? TAVASSOLI: This is only for the beds for the patients, the elderly. GRAY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: Yeah. Am I correct in saying that? Yes. And so again, the state oversight here requires that these beds be licensed. And one of the prerequisites for licensure for the 16 beds is that the applicant receive approval from the governing jurisdiction. This is a closer look at the subject property. Now, I should state that the applicant is not requesting any additions. So the building footprint will not be expanded upon. There are about -- if I remember my count correctly, about seven bedrooms currently in the facility. Eight? I beg your pardon, eight bedrooms aside from a kitchen, a great room, and living room. The only change that would be required is accommodation for the additional parking that would be required for the live-in caregivers. And so you take a look at the property, right now there is a driveway leading into the site, with a rather small area for parking. This driveway, just by way of reference, I measured to be approximately about 17 feet wide. And so you see a rather large concrete pad for the cars that would be parking there, particularly for the live-in caregivers. If you look at the slide that will follow, the applicant has provided a drawing in which they will be providing some additional parking spaces for the live-in caregivers. And incidentally, the required parking for nursing home, convalescent home, home for the aged as in this case, if you look at the parking section of the zoning ordinance, the requirement is one space per four beds. So with 16 beds, this meets the parking requirement; at least, for the onsite requirement. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 30 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 30 of 72 Westby Drive, incidentally, parking is allowed on Westby Drive. There are no no parking signs currently, at least in this stretch of Westby Drive. What I should mention before going to these review standards, the applicant did conduct a virtual meeting, I believe the date was March 7th, for the citizen participation requirement required of the applicant, in which there was one member as you see in the citizen participation report. There was one member that attended that meeting. Apparently that member was concerned about any kind of building footprint expansion and the applicant clarified that there will not be. However, there were about three emails, exactly three emails, actually, that staff received or either was copied on and each expressing opposition to the request. Some of the -- well, primary concerns were parking and traffic and drop-off and things like that. And since this was in participation component the staff also received two additional emails. I believe those two were from the same folks that were included in your staff reports as well. So section 2 establishes standards for review and some of the things that the Commission can consider are -- or should consider is the nature of the use, any special conditions; in this case there should be -- one should be attentive to visitation hours. I'm told that the applicant has said to me, just briefly before the meeting that visitation takes place any time before 8 and 6 -- 8 in the morning to 6 p.m. daily. And then traffic impacts and influence on adjacent uses. And as John said with his presentation, really, the question is does the special use request, is it a detriment to the health and safety and general welfare of the public. Now, it's staff's recommendation that the use is compatible with the adjacent land uses. It's consistent with the 2020 general plan in terms of the neighborhood character in this case, which is urban residential. The parking area as you saw will be expanded. That is really the only modification that will be made to the exterior of this site. If the special use permit plan is approved the applicant does plan to make some modifications to the interior but that would be a tenant improvement. And also there are -- there's no, as I mentioned, no building expansion proposed in this case. So with that I'll conclude my presentation and open up to discussion points or questions you might have. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 31 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 31 of 72 GRAY: Commissioners? COREY: I do just have one question for clarification. I'm trying to do the math on the parking and our ordinance of -- what did you say it was? One park per four beds? TAVASSOLI: Correct. COREY: So we have 16 beds for -- 16 residents. But there are caregivers that are onsite as well. TAVASSOLI: Correct. COREY: So aren't there more than 16 beds? That's what I'm trying to understand. There's 16 for the residents and are there three more for caregivers? Or is it 16 in total? TAVASSOLI: If I understand you correctly, all the -- COREY: Maybe I'm just not understanding that part. GRAY: Yeah, our table doesn't account for it that way. COREY: Okay. DEMPSTER: The parking is just for the caregivers. TAVASSOLI: Oh, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners -- DEMPSTER: Correct? TAVASSOLI: -- the parking standards don't clarify whether or not the parking -- who the parking is intended for. It is assumed that the patients won't be -- COREY: Driving? TAVASSOLI: -- driving vehicles. At least not on a daily basis. But it is a good assumption that it is intended for the live-in caregivers. COREY: Okay. GRAY: Thank you. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Farhad, do you -- when we pull up the building permit for remodel, are the plans to update anything to make it current with normal code requirements? So everything has to come up to code for the remodel? TAVASSOLI: Yeah, that's correct. WATTS: So in this case, I don't see any documentation that was supplied or provided by the applicant that would be consistent with the requirements for a community home, community assisted living. And there was a plethora of -- in Section E, I think it's E-13, there's a list of requirements are necessary, including financial. Is there a financial TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 32 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 32 of 72 hardship? Is there a reason why there needs to be inclusion? So that's one, you may or may not be able to answer. Two, it looks to me, based upon the plan that the building already encroaches into the setback areas. In footnote 104, and there's a lot of encroachment. Is there a percentage of coverage in the building envelope that is allowable? And it looks like this building has already exceeded that pretty significantly. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Watts, the lot coverage percentage limit for an R-3 property is 50 percent. So that's about a -- a little over a third of an acre, so it would be -- WATTS: So you're -- TAVASSOLI: I believe it -- WATTS: I think you're pretty close. TAVASSOLI: Yeah. WATTS: But you're already encroaching into the setbacks. TAVASSOLI: It is encroaching in the setbacks. It is a nonconforming building and my last check it has been there since the early 2000s. WATTS: Right. TAVASSOLI: I don't know for what reason it was approved -- WATTS: And -- TAVASSOLI: -- under what conditions, I'm not sure. WATTS: To Commissioner Corey's question about, does it include the caretakers? If you have one parking space for every four residents regardless of their capacity to drive or not, you need additional parking spaces for caregivers and that's going to be on the street, isn't it? You have no choice really. TAVASSOLI: Right. The applicant is -- WATTS: You're stuck? TAVASSOLI: -- likely as much -- yes. WATTS: Okay. TAVASSOLI: -- it's possible here. WATTS: Because I think you're going to end up with, if you have two to three and right now if you have two for ten people and you use that equation and then if you add six TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 33 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 33 of 72 more you're probably going to have probably a 60 percent increase and maybe even a three -- you're going to end up with five caretakers, maybe even six caretakers. And then you go back to quality of life. If you skimp on the caretakers, it's something that I know doesn't come into the building department necessarily, but it's something that I would definitely take into consideration as far as quality of life and the caregivers' ability to provide that quality of care for the residents. So thank you. TAVASSOLI: Yeah. Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Watts, if I just -- I believe the state and perhaps the applicant could be more specific, but I think the state would have a minimum number of caretakers required for number of -- depending on the number of beds or number of patients. Whether that's actually -- WATTS: I hate to defer to the minimum number. TAVASSOLI: Right. WATTS: You know, again, it goes back to the quality of care. The minimum number for what the residents and fortunately or otherwise, I've got first-hand experience with caregivers and there's a premium price that goes along with that quality of care. GRAY: Vice Chair? SCHLOSSBERG: Quick question on the footprint. So I'm looking at the footprint up there and I'm looking at -- also looking at the aerial, and the 4,259 -- is this all on one level or is there a basement or -- it's all one level? TAVASSOLI: It is all one level, correct. GRAY: They converted the garage. TAVASSOLI: The garage has been converted. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. TAVASSOLI: Yes. There is a rolling door that you can see on the facade, but it has been converted to one of the bedrooms. SCHLOSSBERG: The garage? Okay. Thank you, sir. GRAY: Farhad does fire marshal weigh in on this scenario on occupancy? And we're down to circa 200 square feet per bed. Might put everything in hospital ratios, so 140, 150 square feet per patient room, plus all the staff support and adjacencies for supplies and so on and so forth; this is tight by my programing. So what's the fire marshal think? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners the fire marshal is involved in the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 34 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 34 of 72 review -- the administrative review process early on and he has actually signed off on the proposal without any comments. GRAY: Okay. And then I also have the same general question as Commissioner -- I think Commissioner Watts asked. Since the adoption of our community residence guidelines, this would have -- and correct me if I'm wrong here, but this would have been considered a nonconforming use upon adoption. Now, going forward, does this application not need to conform to all of those criteria? TAVASSOLI: John's coming here to say a few words. WESLEY: Chairman, with this application, with the special use permit, they're moving from being a community residence to an institutional use. So no, those regulations don't apply to this with the special use permit. So it has been a group home where our community residents, under its current configuration, that's what they've been licensed as at the ten units. But by going higher than that, they're no longer in that category. They're moving to a different category in the zoning ordinance and that's why they're here requesting a special use permit. GRAY: But doesn't that take you into an high-occupancy category? WESLEY: That's a building permit question you'd have to ask the building official. WATTS: Commissioner Gray, wouldn't it just be common sense that if we're ask it for 10, we're going to ask it 16, it's the exact same thing. GRAY: It's exponentially more worthy of asking, this time. WESLEY: So this -- WATTS: I agree. WESLEY: -- moves in into a similar category to a Morning Star or a Fountain Dew Village, that type of operation which isn't a residential facility at all. It's now a commercial facility that needs a special use permit in the zoning district. GRAY: And it's not our lens to ask the engineering questions presumably? In that, I mean, simply put this is a residence converted and now becomes, I'll say it's a I- occupancy, because that's what it is. So plumbing design was designed as single-family et cetera. WESLEY: When they request their building permit to upgrade the facility to rearrange it, that all had to be all part of those reviews before they could get a permit issued. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 35 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 35 of 72 GRAY: And do we know that -- you read through the packet on this one and it's all kind of geared towards the impact on the adjacent community. Which this is a zoning hearing, so I understand that certainly. But Commissioner Watts -- or sorry, maybe it was Commissioner Corey, raised kind of that quality of care component. And I just think back to when we went through the whole community residence deliberations and we really did try and weave as much of that quality of care piece in as we possibly could. Down at 200 square feet per resident. I guess, I have questions on is the overnight staff? What's that split between square footage that's designated towards the patient population versus the support population and then on the site circulation, we start to get into institutional, we're talking about refuse collection, we're talking about logistics of deliveries and so on and so forth. I just don't see how this site supports -- I don't see how it supports 10, let alone 16. So -- WESLEY: Good questions for the applicant. GRAY: Okay. Any other Commissioners? Farhad, does the applicant have any prepared presentation or -- TAVASSOLI: I'm not sure if he has a presentation but I'm sure he would like to come up. ISTRATE: Good evening, Chairman, Commissioners. My name is Daniel Istrate and I'm the applicant and the architect of the project. A couple of things that I wanted to answer some of the questions you guys brought up as far as the requirement. The first question is all of the assisted living facilities in the City of Fountain Hills we're governed by the IRC, which is international residential code. International residential code specifically states, and the number of 16 was not at random. Up to 16 it falls under residential. That is a -- that is throughout all jurisdiction, all states. And the building code clearly states up to 16 it's residential. 17 and more it becomes I. That's what distinction is, that's what makes it residential up to 16, above that it becomes I, which is a full commercial hospital, what have you. So up to 16 is considered residential. It is not a commercial building. Building code does not -- so once -- if we were to get approved it goes to the building department. It does not need to -- it's not a commercial building. You do not need to do anything on as far as being a commercial component. Anything above that -- so now ends up happening TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 36 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 36 of 72 is each local jurisdiction, just like Fountain Hills, they set the limit of number for beds and Fountain Hills has it to ten. And that's just -- it was decided by council whenever that was done, God knows how many years ago. But 16 is what IRC states. So that's universal. So for example, I happen to know in the State of Texas every jurisdiction in the State of Texas, 16 is what they allow and then above that is institution. Here in Arizona, for whatever reason it's ten, although City of Phoenix has moved away from that and they've approved in the past year at least 20 of them that went up to 16. And I guess one thing for the Commissioners to understand is, the operator and the owner, wouldn't be sitting here asking for the increase if there wouldn't be a need. There's a constant waiting list for people to go and to be placed in here. If people from the community that have lived here very, very long time, once they reach a point where they're no longer able to live by themselves, they want to presumably still live in this area and not have to be taken to Scottsdale or further, Phoenix, and further west, where there's a greater density. So Fountain Hills has more limited numbers. So that's just to clarify on the -- as far as the requirements. It is -- falls under residential. There's no upgrades that needs to be done to the building whatsoever. Plumbing-wise, HVAC, everything else can stay as is. The building is not changing. The fact that it's already at ten residents already has fire sprinkler, which you asked a question earlier about as far as the fire department and the fire marshal. Their requirements is as far as the building has to be fully sprinkled and the fire alarm monitoring. That is the requirements for the fire department. All the existing assisted living home in the State of Arizona are governed by AZDHS, the Department of Health Services. They have minimum guidelines. Going back to your question as far as minimum area requirements. AZDHS has a requirement of minimum of 80 square foot per resident or of 120 per two residents. So if you are to build a new building, you can make -- you can designate 80 square feet per resident or 120 for two residents. That's not what we're proposing, just to answer because you're wondering what the square footage comes to. Going back to parking, which was another question that was brought up. The parking is mainly for staff and for visitors. The residents do not drive for obvious reasons. They're in place, they're in here because they need help and also for liability. As the operator you would not want to let them drive. They're supposed -- they're on medication, they're not TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 37 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 37 of 72 to be driving. So it's for mainly for the staff. And then, visitation hours they usually call ahead. They don't just drop, especially we're coming out of a pandemic. Actually visitations were pretty much halted that time, but even as they're reopening, you have to call ahead to visit. You don't just show up. And then they have the occasional deliveries for medical supplies. A doctor or a nurse might stop by too. I'm going to try to see if I can figure out how to work this backwards. Because I want -- it's not my slide, it was in here. There was an aerial - TAVASSOLI: Let's see if I can pull it up for you. ISTRATE: Okay. There was an aerial that was taken, you know Maricopa County does their yearly flybys. I'm not sure which year this was taken and you can see there's one car on the driveway. So when I looked at it -- when I went to Maricopa County, I think, right now, they allow us to go back to maybe 2014, '15. Even if you guys have access to your monitor, I'm not sure. I looked, I don't know, they take them at random days. Nobody controls that. Every picture they've ever taken, in '15, in '16, in '17, in '18, '19, all the way to '23, at no point was more than one car on the driveway. So there was not -- we don't control -- we didn't take those pictures, they're taken by County. Obviously, at random time but that's a pretty good indicator that at no point, since any -- they've been in operation since 2005. So at least since 2015, there's never been more than one car on the driveway. Most caregivers, they're -- they either don't have a car or they will share a car. So I don't -- the argument of increased traffic of up to 60 percent, there isn't really any traffic. If you actually ever go and visit one of the residents are -- they're not driving. And then the caregivers are there on permanent basis. They have to be on premises. They don't come and go. The most traffic will be a family member decided to stop by, a nurse or doctor coming by, or a delivery and those are minimal at best. So there's not this increase of traffic, from going from 10 to 16, as far as extra cars because that's just not the case. I've seen just -- to give you backgrounds, I must have done maybe north of 100 assisted living facilities in the greater Phoenix area. They are not high traffic facilities. They just have the elderly as they're moving in out of their own homes. As you can probably imagine, it is very intimidating to go from a home setting into a assisted living facility or hospital that has a 100 beds or more. It's just a lot and then you just become another number in a multitude. So one of the reason why the smaller scale TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 38 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 38 of 72 homes did well is because it's just less, I guess, intimidating and still maintains that home-like environment. But there is just a lot of need. Arizona obviously, we're a state where people come to retire so, and we're having an aging population. They do need to go somewhere and I know most people don't like to have them. I have one that's two doors from my house. But they need a place to stay. So I guess, and also thing to make a distinction because they do fall under the same as far as the state goes and even the city, there's no difference that the state and the city makes between a assisted living home for the elderly or one of those behavior health places. And they're the exact same requirements and I do wanted to specify that this is a home for the elderly. There are old people in her, somebody's mom and grandparents that live in this homes. That there's just that much need that there is on it. So I'll open up to any questions that any of the Commissioners might have. And then I guess, last one was just on the encroachment. It's an existing noncompliant. So we didn't make the house to be out of -- encroaching into the setback. And actually to answer your question, sorry, Commissioner Watts. The lot coverage is 50 percent. Right now, we are at 29.9. So we're -- okay, we can round up. We're at 30 percent lot coverage, and the allowable is 50. And that's on sheet A0.2 that was provided. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Sir, you introduced yourself as the architect? ISTRATE: Yes. DAPAAH: Okay. So if approved, what are you doing to renovate the interior to add six additional beds? ISTRATE: We are not renovating to add additional beds. We're not taking the rooms that we have and making smaller rooms. A lot of assisted facilities do function in a share bedroom capacity where they'll just -- the bedrooms are 2, 300 square feet and there's two beds that will be sharing the same room. So it's not -- we're not taking space out of the living room or the dining room or the kitchen to add more bedrooms. So there is no bedrooms being added. There's just the capacity of the bedroom will just be increased. Most of these rooms typically have a twin size bed. So if you can imagine a twin size bed in a corner of a 250 square foot room, does not take -- a twin size bed is 3 foot by 7. So that takes 21 square feet. So the bed itself takes ten percent of the footprint of the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 39 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 39 of 72 room. They use the bedrooms usually at night to sleep. And then during the day they're sitting in the common area, whether it's at the dining table or in the living room, watching TV. So there -- some of them are bed-bound and obviously, they don't leave the room very often. DAPAAH: Okay. So nothing on the interior will change. You're just going to add six more beds; is that what I'm understanding? ISTRATE: At this time, yes. So there are no proposed -- as you look at the plan, there is no proposed to -- maybe in talking to the operator, there is one larger master bedroom with a large -- the house was a single-family house. So the master suite itself was probably close 400-some square feet. So that has the opportunity to be divvied up differently to maybe create two additional bedrooms. We did not want it to get as far as -- we didn't wanted to start laying out floorplans if the land -- if the project doesn't get approved, there's no reason to make plans for something that might not happen. So if it gets approved, obviously, we still have to submit for full building plans to the building department. So we'll see what interior changes could be done to accommodate or create more rooms. We haven't sat down to start laying out rooms for something that might not come to fruition. DAPAAH: Sure. So right now at ten beds, are you at capacity? ISTRATE: Yes. They're at full capacity. DAPAAH: You are at full capacity now, with ten beds? ISTRATE: Yes. Also I'm the architect. She's the operator and the owner. So any, I guess, questions specifically on the operation I'll obviously defer because I -- DAPAAH: So all ten beds are full right now? TOLAN: Yes. ISTRATE: Yes. DAPAAH: So at 16 beds, you plan to also be full at 16? TOLAN: I don't know what the plan in the future might be. I just apply and I was approved for provider for access. Access space for semi-private. So I'm trying to plan ahead for some people that they don't have money and they apply for Medicaid and use a room as a semi-private. That I'm going to have 12 or 14, but why not applying for 16 and TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 40 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 40 of 72 see if I -- how I'm going to accommodate or not. DAPAAH: So you're just trying to -- TOLAN: Yeah. DAPAAH: -- go as far as the IRC allows you to? TOLAN: Right. So but like I said, I just apply for access number. So now I can accept people that they work with Medicaid. DAPAAH: Chairman or John -- John or -- I'm sorry. Chairman Gray or John, is there -- would this be considered under healthcare facilities where they have to comply with building exchange, air exchange codes on the interior and all that? Or this would be a different type of -- ISTRATE: So as far as the -- when we submit to the building -- DAPAAH: As far as your mechanical systems? ISTRATE: We will go under -- it's no different than a residential. DAPAAH: So no different -- ISTRATE: So the house has, I think they currently have two conventional split units, AC units that supply every room with a diffuser and there's a return in every room. So obviously, that comes from fresh air from the outside. So it still falls under, as earlier stated, as a residential. So there's no requirements to provide any additional HVAC or any additional retrofits to the building as far as changes, since it still falls under residential and not commercial. DAPAAH: Okay. So building maintenance, that remains the same as well, even with additional six beds? ISTRATE: Well, there's no -- as far as I know there's no maintenance on site. It's obviously just like a house. As a repair is needed, someone will be called. If the water heater goes out, some -- I'm sure a service call would go out for somebody to come and service that. If somebody comes in to probably replace the lights and filters, if the AC goes out, somebody gets called for that. So there is somebody that comes, but there is not as much maintenance as maybe one will think. Even with -- even going from -- even on the 10 residents or even going to 16. There's just not -- DAPAAH: Sure. So there's no routine maintenance happening? I'm assuming there's not much being torn up in the house. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 41 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 41 of 72 ISTRATE: No. I mean, like I said, given the residents, they're senior residents. They're sitting in their bed or in the living room watching TV. To be honest, I got four kids at home, I think my house needs a bit more maintenance than the 16 residents, because they're playing in the house and punching holes in the walls with balls and playing, whatever. So there's not a lot of traffic as far as them causing damage to the house. One thing to notice is AZDHS does a yearly inspection on every facility. They do that on every house and then they assess and they put in deficiencies. And the owners here, they don't have deficiencies. So if food is not stored properly, if chemicals are not stored properly, you will get deficiency and they'll take your license away. So there is regulations. The fire department does their yearly inspections too. So they are inspected and they're not announced. So they do show up whenever they feel like -- similar to a restaurant. When the Health Department shows up to a restaurant, they don't give them a heads up so they can, you know, to get their stuff in order. They just show up and if you're not ready you get deficiency. If you have deficiency, they will revoke your license and they will close you down. So they been in operation since 2005, that wouldn't be the case if they weren't operating a clean facility. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Thank you. Thank you, Daniel. You already addressed some of my questions earlier. One was going to be what's the basis behind the increase. But you addressed that saying there's a need. So you know that there's people waiting for something like this. ISTRATE: Correct. So the operator can probably. So they get calls constantly and they're saying well, we'll put you on the list. We're let you know if, when we have an opening. And I know the openings don't stay very long. And I think, going back to one of the other questions that Patrick had is, just because somebody applies for 16 that doesn't necessarily mean they'll be running at full capacity. Just like anything else, like a hotel -- COREY: It gives you that buffer. ISTRATE: -- is not at full capacity. They might take two, three additional and just given the nature of the use, some -- well, not some. All residents, at one point, will pass away and then other ones will come in. So that, our first -- let's hypothetically say that they TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 42 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 42 of 72 only have one room open right now, they're at nine and they have one room. And a couple calls in to be, you know, they would like to stay -- which actually, that happens quite often. They both move out and they say, well, we only have one bed available. So they cannot take both of them in. They just -- state law will not allow it, and just, they're very strict on enforcing. If they come in and you have more than ten residents, they will close you right there on the spot. So that will allow them to have those two couples -- a couple to be able to stay in. So that's one of the reason to do that. So they might be, I think, as Simone had mentioned, maybe 12 or 13. Doesn't necessarily mean -- and they're not always at ten either. As somebody comes, somebody might be coming in, that's just how they operate. COREY: Okay. Thank you. And you also addressed visitors. So I was concerned about how many may show up at any given time but it sounds like that's a scheduled visit. ISTRATE: It is a scheduled thing. And it's kind of more of a side commentary. I think I mentioned earlier that I must have done hundreds of this and I've been in a lot of them. If you really wanted to know the truth, the visitors are very minimal at best. They do end up being placed there and a lot of time the immediate family are children. They're out of state in California and Illinois, so they do not come as often as one would think that they would come and visit. They really don't. If somebody's local, sometimes they do. And I'm not saying that that's the rule. But more often than not, I go to them -- through these facilities all the time because I have to take measurements, I will say not even one out of ten that I've gone in there and I've seen family visiting. It does tend to increase around the holidays, Christmas. Maybe since they're out of state they might be coming back to visit. But no, not as much as one would -- if you think that one family is coming in and the other one is leaving, that's just not the case. COREY: Okay. And aren't there some insurance companies that -- I think ALTCS is one of them that I heard of that requires sometimes that people have to share a room in order to get the benefits of the insurance? ISTRATE: Correct. So that's -- they've applied for that. So they will not -- so ALTCS will not pay for private rooms because they're -- you know, the government pays for it and I guess, private room are considered a luxury that the government doesn't seem that people deserve. So they would only pay for a shared room. So obviously, there's cost TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 43 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 43 of 72 involved. So a private room will cost more but then if you have two rooms, then that way you can take residents in a room that normally will just be reserved for one person. COREY: So it sounds like that double occupancy is common if they're looking for that as well. ISTRATE: Correct. And that doesn't mean that you put -- I mean, just the way it operates. If you place a parent or a grandparent there and you're paying for a private room and you want them to be in a private room, they will not put somebody in just because they have the occupancy of 16. It doesn't mean they're going to put two because they say -- that gets established on day one. I will like to get a private room, so then they will put him in a private room. You can't show up the next time you visit and there's somebody else in there. I mean, there's contracts between the -- COREY: Sure. ISTRATE: -- people that place them and the operator. So you can't just -- I guess just like a hotel, you can't show up and somebody else is in your room. COREY: And just one final question. We all know that my math skills are not that good. Where do the caregivers stay? ISTRATE: So there are nine rooms, not eight. So there's nine rooms and the caregivers. So if we look at the floorplan there's nine rooms. The caregivers stay in one of the additional room. So and even right now, you can still have double occupancy. So the eight rooms are for the residents, the other ones are for the caregivers. And like, as mentioned earlier, if it gets approved we'll look at a ways to add a few additional bedrooms to figure out. We haven't, truth be told, haven't been paid to do a program yet for what it could be. I'm sure we can always find the master suite, as mentioned. It's about 400, 500 square feet. It's -- those bedrooms are quite large. And nobody needs, that large bedrooms. So those could be reconfigured. Maybe another room for a caregiver or split into two more rooms for the residents. COREY: Thank you. You sound very educated in this area. So I appreciate all your answers. ISTRATE: No problem. GRAY: Just to tag onto Commissioner Corey real quick. So the caregiver model is a live-in caregiver model. So the patients has the same caregiver 24/7 essentially, or is it a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 44 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 44 of 72 rotating? ISTRATE: They're the same caregivers that stay there. It's the same caregivers. GRAY: Okay. ISTRATE: They do have -- well, they're not working 24/7 because nobody does that. That's just -- GRAY: No. Understood. ISTRATE: But they are live-in caregivers and they are required to have at least -- every six days they're required to have a 24-hour period off. So then they either rotate. Sometimes they -- actually the operators will be the ones that stay in, just from operation purposes to make sure that, you know, if it's your business you want to make sure that it's going okay. So sometimes -- or they will bring in additional person during that day to give somebody the day off whenever they're not working. But it's the same familiar face. So it's not -- isn't a staff of like 20 people that, you look on schedule to see -- in a hospital, for example, my wife is a nurse in the pediatric unit. There's, I don't know, there's -- they only hve six beds in the -- it's the PICU so they don't -- you know, less. But there's, I don't know eight nurses that, you know, to rotation. But these are the same caregivers that they're -- day in and day out. GRAY: So just to clarify for me. I'm not a residential code expert, but 16 licensed beds plus four fulltime, 24/7 caregivers is 20, since I'm better at math than you. Does that not cross your residential code occupancy threshold? ISTRATE: No, it does not. So the residential code is based -- strictly controls the number of residents. Which number of residents are what the State of Arizona, AZDHS, Department of Health Services, they refer to the people that you're placing in there to be cared for. There's a lot of facilities based on -- there's a lot of facilities that actually bring in -- they actually have larger ones. I don't mean larger like more residents, larger just square footage. Because I do some, they are still ten residents but they're like 10,000 square foot and they have larger rooms. They bring in a -- almost like, let's call it dayshift. There will be caregivers that show up at 6 o'clock in the morning and they'll stay there until, I don't know, 8, 9 o'clock at night. There'll be three, four of them that come in. and they will leave at the end of their shifts, at 9 o'clock. They don't actually stay. And there'll only be one, or at the most time, two caregivers that stay at night TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 45 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 45 of 72 because somebody has to be there. And they don't go to sleep. They sit on the couch, just like someone in a hospital with the night nurses. They'll sit there all night in case a resident needs help, because they have a little bell that they ring or a little buzzer and then they go into the room. So the building code regulates the number of residents because the caregivers are not a given that they stay there. They're not required that's why they make no concessions for parking or number. And as, I think, a earlier question was brought in, believe it or not, and I don't make the rules. AZDHS does not have a number of caregivers that they are required based on number of residents. It is impossible, I can tell you right now to have one caregiver for 16 residents. But that, if you were to have a facility and only have one -- I think to one of the points that Commissioner Watts made, it is virtually impossible to have one caregiver for that. But the state does not regulate and they're not control how many -- they don't say well, once you're at ten you need three to four. If you're at 16, you need five to six. There is no number that they associate with that. There just isn't one. Just like in hospitals, they can have -- one nurse can have five, six patients. And we know that that's actually a reality, it happens quite a bit. GRAY: So I appreciate the state has their definition of what is a clinical resident. But then the building code has a definition of resident being basically occupant, inhabitant. Farhad can you offer -- do you concur with that interpretation that 20 is actually 16, because they're not clinical residents? I would challenge that simply because in the eyes of building code, a resident is an occupant spending the night within the premise of the perimeter walls, no matter whether you're the provider or the caregiver. So are we not talking about 20 as our real number here? I just don't want to -- I don't want to allow the blurred line. I think we've got a lot of blurred lines coming into this so far. But I don't want to allow that particular blurred line to get -- to lose sight of it anyway. TAVASSOLI: Yeah, Mr. Chairman, in the grand scheme, we are talking about 20 residents. The zoning ordinance refers to ten residents. And I believe it's referring to beds, actually. So we'll take another look at that. GRAY: And that's how I remember the deliberation as well. As it was really heads and beds regardless of your purpose on the premise. And then can I also just ask while you're up. I guess I interpreted this, as I read the packet, I interpreted this as a net zero, no changes other than the site adjustments that were going to happen. But I understand now TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 46 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 46 of 72 we're saying, that no, we're actually going to go through a full architectural plan review process, including manual J Calcs for HVAC loads and so on and so forth. Is that where this is actually progressing if we do in fact subscribe to the special use? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, I cannot say at this point what modifications would accompany this. In my brief conversations, and I may have misunderstood my brief conversations just before the meeting. I heard there would be some modifications, but it may have been reorientation of the bedrooms or addition of beds and so on. GRAY: Okay. Thank you. Sorry. Commissioner Watts. WATTS: I'm still struggling with a couple of things. One, the math on the personnel. The 20 people -- the caregivers first off, are -- my math says there's going to be ultimately, if you're at 16 beds, you're going to have five caregivers. Based upon utilizing what you've got now, assuming that you get a ratio of somewhere three, because of your rolling schedules and so on. So you're always going to have that. And when you extrapolate five, I don't -- I grant you that when you've gone back and looked at the pictures you've never had any cars in the parking spaces. Do they all ride in one car? ISTRATE: The caregivers live on the premises. They do not ride on -- they don't commute to and from the facility. That's where they -- WATTS: How do they get there? ISTRATE: Somebody give them a ride. I have no idea how they get there. But they don't -- okay, I let the operator, they just don't -- most of them do not own cars. I mean that's not -- it's not a requirement to own a car. Somehow they got there. I can tell you right now that there's not three cars for the -- you're more than welcome on any given day, without announcing to stop by to see if you ever see more than one car on that driveway. So they just, most of them don't own a car. WATTS: Does the caregiver headcount include -- first off, are the caregivers all licensed? Are they required to be licensed? ISTRATE: Yes. So every caregiver is licensed. They have to have a fingerprint card. And the caregivers don't -- the owner and operator could be considered one of the caregivers with aiding two more of the other caregivers that are there 24/7. So at the end of the day, the owner might opt to go home at their own house, so then it will leave the two other caregivers to stay there for the night. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 47 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 47 of 72 WATTS: So which of the caregivers does the cooking? One of them? ISTRATE: I have no idea. I will leave that -- WATTS: That's a 24/7 job. Cooking. TOLAN: 24/7? WATTS: Pretty close. TOLAN: Nobody eats after 6 p.m. WATTS: Okay. TOLAN: It's not quite 24/7. WATTS: And how about the laundry services and housecleaning? Who does that? Is it one of the caregivers again? TOLAN: Yes. So that's how all the care homes operate in the valley or at least 90 percent, and all my friends. I've been in business 19 years, with two care homes. At one point, four care homes. And somehow we find a way to make it cleaner than you believe. And everybody comes in the house and say like, I can't believe it's so clean. And yes, we do manage to do all these things. And the caregivers, sometimes the husband, the family brings some of the caregivers, let's say they're from California or whatever, and they come here to work for like, I don't know six months, a year and then they go back. And they save on rent and stuff like that. And they're happy with the opportunity to live in the premises. So most of my caregivers they don't have a car. I cannot say all of them, but most of them, you know, they don't. WATTS: So just so I'm clear again. We're going to put two residents in each bedroom or each area -- TOLAN: That will be at maximum capacity. WATTS: And you're going to put between four and five caregivers, depending upon rotating schedules in another separate room. TOLAN: Well, even when I have three, one of them, it's mostly for the nighttime. And you know, maybe give days off for like -- we rotate it and depends of the need and what kind of residents I have. Sometimes they need a lot of help at nighttime, sometimes not. And I adapt. I not always have like three or -- I might have two or three at -- at the 16 capacity, I may have four or five, but not five during the day all of them. Maybe three during the day and two during the night. So it will not be all the time. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 48 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 48 of 72 I will manage. As I said, I been 19 years in business and we are governed by health department. So they regulate us and they make the rules and we follow the rules and also we try to the best to make the family happy. Because if the family residents are not happy, I will not have a business. So somehow we do manage to do all these things. WATTS: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Hi. I just would like a little clarification, because I -- just to further clarify. So it seems like at any given time, overnight there may be two caregivers there; is that correct? ISTRATE: Well, two caregivers, yes. But there are -- DEMPSTER: On duty, awake? ISTRATE: Yeah, on duty. Yes. Not sleeping. DEMPSTER: And they -- all the caregivers would share a room? The same room? ISTRATE: I think what she mentioned earlier, I think that she has a family that lives there, which is a -- made up of a husband and a wife, which -- DEMPSTER: Are two caregivers? ISTRATE: -- so they're going to share a room. And then -- so right now, they have the two and it sounds like they bring somebody else at night. So if that's the case, then there'll be an additional room for the additional caregivers. Right now, there isn't one because there just wasn't a need for one. DEMPSTER: Okay. So then let me back up then. I thought you said you had eight bedrooms for the residents and plus one bedroom. So I'm thinking that plus one is for the caregivers. ISTRATE: Correct. DEMPSTER: And the eight bedrooms are for your residents. ISTRATE: Correct. DEMPSTER: So all your caregivers share the same room? Is that correct? ISTRATE: Yes, but there's only -- DEMPSTER: Does that make sense? WATTS: We don't know. ISTRATE: Correct. But she just said that there's a family. There's two caregivers that -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 49 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 49 of 72 DEMPSTER: Right. But they're not there all the time. So when they're not there other people are using the room? I mean, when they have a day off and the other caregivers are there, I mean they're not there 24/7, right? TOLAN: No. Usually, I will give like, even when they have days off, that will be there room as well. Not for the residents. So I have not used that room -- DEMPSTER: Well, not a resident, but another caregiver? TOLAN: Oh, yes. Of course. DEMPSTER: They share the room? TOLAN: Yes, they can share the room. Yeah. DEMPSTER: And as the owner/operator, you don't live there? TOLAN: No. DEMPSTER: Okay. And then, I'm curious about the sanitary district going from 10 beds to 16 beds. Is there any check and balance there? ISTRATE: So the way it works is it's just based on number of fixtures. So up to -- the way sanitary line works, up to three toilets you have a three-inch sanitary line. Once you go above that, four and above, it's a four-inch line. And it stays at four-inch line all the way. When you get to 24 toilets it can still be staying on a four-inch line. Only when you get above that, does it go up to six. So you have to have hotels of at least 24 rooms before that increases to a six-inch line. So up to -- so since there is four bathrooms there is a four-inch line. Even if we put a bathroom in every room we will still not be exceeding what code requires as far as the size of the sewer line. DEMPSTER: Okay. And then none of the residents own cars? ISTRATE: The live-in -- DEMPSTER: The residents? ISTRATE: No. They do not. DEMPSTER: Okay. ISTRATE: And out of the all the projects I've done I don't know a single house that will allow a resident to stay there with a car just for liability purpose. I mean these people, if they're there, it's because they need help. And there's dementia and other cases, you do not want them to -- let them -- DEMPSTER: Okay. I just want to clarify. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 50 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 50 of 72 ISTRATE: -- some of them do want to come with cars but they're not -- they're, like, yeah, you can't drive. DEMPSTER: And now, does a doctor come to the facility? Because if the caregivers don't have cars, how do they get to appointments? ISTRATE: So if they go to appointments, that's where a lot of times the operator will take them. But nurses and doctors do come in. But they will call and if there's a need, they say, so and so resident needs to be there -- but I'll let her -- TOLAN: I have a house doctor for 19 years, same doctor. And he is coming every month for visits. And all the symptoms and we monitor the -- every day them, and we also over the phone with them. So the doctor is coming once a month, same doctor for all my residents. DEMPSTER: So they don't go out of the facility for appointments? TOLAN: They rare -- they do, sometimes for specialist doctors, but that's very rare and it's with arrangement with the car; it comes, pick them up and drops them. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you. GRAY: Just you had mentioned. You haven't been engaged to do any programing or blocking of rooms within this property, right, at this point? ISTRATE: Correct. I blocked the property but I have not -- and I did, what is called an as built condition. So I measure what's there existing, but I have not start making a program and laying out to see what a potential two or three or four bedrooms will look like. We didn't get that far. TOLAN: I'm sorry. Another architect about, I don't know, six, seven years ago, he make the plans for 11 bedrooms and nine bathrooms. And it was approved by City of Fountain Hills but I never act on it. ISTRATE: So I have no knowledge of that, as she mentioned another -- GRAY: Can you help us -- yeah, it's not in our packet either. So under -- so let's see, if you were to draw this today, you would be under residential code, we think. ISTRATE: Correct. GRAY: Although, we're saying that the real number is 20, so maybe not. What do we -- what do you look at for the clinical component? Do you look under FGI for outpatient facilities or what's the guide for the clinical care component, and mainly just as an TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 51 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 51 of 72 example. When you're blocking this thing out, when you look for clearances around the bed for patient safety and so on and so forth, what is that point of reference? And I'm just curious. ISTRATE: Okay. So there's couple of things that we do when -- as was obviously, established. In the beginning this as a built on day one as a single family residence. And a lot of this, but most of this facility somebody purchases an existing house that then they convert to one of this assisted living facility. Very few are the people that can afford to actually build one for ten residents from the scratch. So then there's certain requirements that we have. We still have to provide a ADA restrooms but they're not -- so provide ADA restroom, make sure that we have grab bars in the bathroom. Even if the bathroom itself is not a full ADA bathroom, which you're not required to have them. There's one ADA bathroom required but the rest of them every operator installs grab bars just for ease of use. We typically, replace all the doors. Most homes comes with I think 32-inch doors, that's just what most builder put in. We replace the door to 36-inch doors just so you can get in with the wheelchairs a lot easier. They do that for a lot of reasons. For the wheelchairs also just so the doors don't get banged up as they're going by. We talked about fire sprinklers, fire alarms. Clearances, keeping -- if some rooms have exits to the outside, make sure that that exit is provided. Make sure beds do not go in front of windows because windows are still a second means of egress if they -- residents themselves are not able to self-evacuate, you still need -- fire department, they can use windows to get in. So bedrooms not to go up against windows. ADA bathrooms, grab bars, and just wider corridors. Other than that, that's usually at a minimum -- I guess, another thing too, maybe to specify. The type of resident, they are not on like ventilators or anything like that. They're still mobile. They get up from their beds and they come sit on the couch and watch TV. So they're not, as far as, needing medical -- they need help taking their meds but not as far as -- they're not in a strict regimen or they're not, where they're walking around with IVs connected to one of those -- those require actually hospital. If a patient decays to that point, they are taken to a hospital. They're not -- that requires a nurse and a doctor to administrate that. GRAY: All right. Paula, do we have any speaker cards? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 52 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 52 of 72 WOODWARD: Yes, Chairman. There were four written statements, speaker cards against approving the 16 beds. And then there are speakers. In order of appearance, the first speaker will be Tom Lifton (ph.), Crystal Cavanaugh, Veronica Oliver (ph.), and Larry Meyers. LIFFITON: Hello Chairman, Commissioners. Thank you for the opportunity to provide some input. Thank you for your work. Just to start, I want to say some nice things about the neighbors. My wife and I live directly across from the facility -- GRAY: Tom, will you pull that mic up a little closer to you? Thanks. LIFFITON: How's that? So my wife and I live directly across from the facility. You can see our place right at the end of Westby Towers, right at the end of Westby. So we get to see quite -- I'm retired. So we get to see a lot of what goes on over there. It's a very quiet place. In general it looks very nice. Traffic either is from zero parking all the way up to -- there can be, to this morning there were two cars in the parking spaces on site, and one in the street. But that can get expand to more. It can go to three or four in the parking onsite and it can be up and down the street on both sides of the street. And sometimes, somebody might park all the way at the end, at Palisades. Which is a little bothersome. But in general, I would say it's tolerable. So I know nothing about what goes on inside the house. It's very quiet. At night we don't really see or hear anything from them. Our concern is really with what we see through our living room window. And with this picture that you have up there, we can see from the -- we're looking straight across, we can see to the left there's an area of landscape with one Ocotillo and a bush and a little white mailbox. On Tuesdays they bring out three trash cans, one of those three big trash cans. They're filled to the gills, to the top. The top can't close. That's only on one day of the week. But what we're really concerned with is this driveway. If you'll see it's sort of a semi-circular driveway in a way. Right now, it covers about, I would say a third of the property. If you look on their proposal, you're going to wipe out all of the landscaping on the left. You're going to take out all that gravel, sand. You'll take out the Ocotillo and two cars will be parked right there. And then, on the opposite side, that area, the parking area is going to be bumped out a bit toward Palisades. So what you're going to end up with is with at least two-thirds of the driveway -- at least two-thirds of the front yard will TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 53 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 53 of 72 be all driveway. Which just doesn't look good. And quoting the statement that came along with the request, Kontexture, that's the company that wants to do this. Stated it, "wishes to increase the number of residents while keeping the facility's residential status, feel of the home, residential function, and appearance". And I just don't think that what they're proposing by taking out this landscaping and paving over the whole front yard -- or most of the front yard is going to do that. Plus, it's got to increase the traffic to some extent, I don't really know about that. Those are our concerns. So saying all that, I'm against the proposal as it stands. We're against the proposal as it stands, my wife and I. But we have a suggestion that if they can put up some kind of high bushes, the size of the Ocotillo, high up there to hide the new parking lot, the two spots there, that might be a compromise. I don't know that it takes care of all the other problems I've heard here. But it's maybe something in the right direction. So that's all I have to say. GRAY: Thank you, Tom. LIFFITON: Thanks very much. CAVANAUGH: So I did drive by this property today and I did notice the parking was a little interesting also. There was only one vehicle and it was a white pickup truck. I'm not sure whose that was. So if there were any staff in there that was their vehicle. And it was parked at the end of the driveway, across the driveway, blocking part of it. That alone kind of worried me because I thought what if you have to have an emergency vehicle. So I didn't know if that was a typical thing. But I also noticed it was going to be kind of a difficult street to bulk up with more parking. And I can see where this would even increase all the pavement that this neighbor's talking about. But my other thought on this was, a bigger surprise was the staff recommendation. Why would they automatically suggest that you approve this? Did we not spend over a year talking about our community residences? We talked about the family-style community residence, longer term, and then we had the transitional. So we didn't distinguish with behavioral. So I'm not sure they're really familiar exactly with our Fountain Hills ordinances, because at ten occupants they were one of the grandfathered in ones. I would judge that to be the case because now the new ones, if you want to start up a new one, you can only have eight plus staff. So now we're talking, they want to not change TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 54 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 54 of 72 anything in the building, they just want to bring in a whole lot more beds and stack these poor people in like sardines for funding. And so I'm very concerned about their quality of life but I'm only concerned about the neighborhood's quality of life and I'm concerned that if we start changing our ordinance this quickly, and allowing them to bump up to 16, the next family community residence, why can't they ask us to do the same. And then the transitional homes will feel discriminated against if we don't bump them back up. So this is just a slippery, slippery slope and I say no. Thank you. OLIVER: Good evening. Thank you. I'm Veronica Oliver. I live in Westby Towers. Westby is a little bit of a speed road and a lot of cars speed. With cars on both sides of the roads, which a lot of the time there are, cars can't even get through and there's an accident waiting to happen. I was -- just received my paperwork today in the mail. And on this sheet it says seven bedrooms. It doesn't say eight. It doesn't say nine. It says seven. Regardless, I do volunteer work at group homes back in Michigan where I summer. And the homes could not possibly take this many beds and put in this small of a area and take care of the people the way they should be taken care of. I mean, they're not in regular beds. They're in hospital beds. And if they have wheelchairs, and they have all their other equipment. They can't fit into these rooms. I am concerned about the patients. And the clients, or whatever you want to call them, because they do deserve the best possible care that they could get. And it doesn't help that there are cars coming and going. And I know they said back from 2015 there's only been one car in the parking lot at each time they took a picture. Well, that is very abnormal. I don't think this is a good place and it's a residential area, it's not a commercial area and it should stay residential. Thank you. MEYERS: Chair, Commissioners, so it took us two years to debate the ordinance that separated the community residents from the transitional residents. The debate that took place massive amount of time was about the level of care. We settled on five residents and a caregiver for the transitionals. We took it from ten down to eight for the community. They happen to be at ten, so they got grandfathered in. That house is 4,500 square feet and I live in 4,500 square feet, and if you stuck 20 people in my house, it's crowded. I don't care whether you're in a wheelchair, whether you don't TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 55 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 55 of 72 move, whether you stay in bed, there's -- it would be very crowded. And so we spent a lot of time talking about level of care and numbers of occupants, and caregiver to resident ratios during the two years that we took to thoughtfully make our town ordinances, regardless of what the state says. We felt that in this town this is what the level of care that we wanted to deliver to people in these conditions. And we decided on our numbers and I don't see any reasons to change our numbers because it was two years' worth of thought and you're the people that were the thoughtful people. It ended up being your ordinance with a slight twist at the council level, that ended up going into effect. And now here we are. That thing's not even a year old. The ink's not dry on the paper and we're getting asked for a change. So I'm more looking at this from a level of care and caregiver to resident ratio, and the square footage and the building stuff doesn't mean anything to me. I think the building's too small for 20 people, period. And I think 20 people and a few caregivers piled into 4,500 square feet is a lower level of care than 10 people. And that's just that. And if anybody feels differently, well, then so be it. But it's -- I don't think it's what we decided to do and I think Vice Mayor McMahon would agree since we're now a dementia friendly town. So we're going to lower the level of care and I disagree with that. So I would say don't increase the occupancy on this building. Let's just operate as it is and be done with it. Thank you. GRAY: Paula, any more speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. All right. We'll go ahead and close the public portion of our hearing. Let's call Farhad back up for any final deliberation ahead of a motion. DEMPSTER: Hi. Can you just clarify for me, sorry, this has gotten a little confusing. Currently, this property is residential home and we do not have a zoning that would accommodate, should this go through; is that correct? So if this change went through it would be considered a commercial property, correct? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, in terms of operation, how it operates, it would be considered a commercial property. DEMPSTER: Changed to commercial? Okay. TAVASSOLI: Yeah. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 56 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 56 of 72 DEMPSTER: And I'm -- because we have all R-3 surrounding that, all residential. So, okay. Thank you. TAVASSOLI: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: So five years ago I saw many of the elderly here in Fountain Hills move -- size down from their homes into Park Place, okay. Today you go there and most of them are dying. A lot of them due to loneliness. So there's a -- I know that there's a real need for this service. Okay, I know we've been talking a lot about the drug treatment facilities and all that and we know where that's going. But for this, there's a real need here in Fountain Hills. Literally, abandoned parents, abandoned elderly here in the Town of Fountain Hills. I cannot get too caught up in that. Our obligation here today is, it says here, "to make recommendations to the council based on the maintenance and operation of the use of the building that's applied for, that it will not be detrimental to the public health, safety, peace, comfort, and general welfare of persons residing or working in the neighborhood or anything". I did a due diligence and walked the whole neighborhood. And to be honest with you, what I observed was this particular building was one of the buildings that was very well cared for in the neighborhood. I even walked into the facility unannounced and saw how clean that it was. And no one -- the need here, Mr. Chairman, I would like to move that we go with the staff recommendation to approve the special use permit. Of course, with the -- hoping that they will do some modification on the interior to be able to take this additional 16 beds. I, in no way, believe that they will fill it to the max to 16 but want the capacity to be able to operate and move to approve the special use permit to allow the home there at 16602 East Palisades Boulevard for this additional six beds. GRAY: Commissioners, Commissioner Dapaah has put a motion to recommend approval to the town council of the requested case ahead of calling for a second. I, at least, want to vocalize kind of where I'm at on this. And frankly, I just think we're -- I think we're too premature with this. I cannot get past the -- I appreciate everything that Commissioner Dapaah has stated and I appreciate that he's visited the facility. I appreciate that the facility runs well and is well maintained at ten. But based on the information in the packet, based on the intent to retain a lot of the public -- or not the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 57 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 57 of 72 public, but the gathering spaces within, based on the information that we now understand the staff are also fulltime residents of the facility and thereby we've got 19 or 20 people living in this single family home at any given time, for me personally, I at least need a layout that shows me how those beds are going to work inside of this facility before I'm going to -- before I'm going to get behind this recommendation. So as we consider a second to Commissioner Dapaah's motion, I just want to be clear that I'm going to be voting against this recommendation at this time. So Commissioner's any other thoughts or potential amendments to Commissioner Dapaah's motion? Or a second, please. No seconds to the motion? Commissioner Dapaah's motion has failed. Opens the floor back up to discussion or any alternate motion if we're all done with discussion. WATTS: So Chairman Gray? GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I would move to deny the special use permit for the multi-zoning district SUP23-000002. GRAY: Commissioners any amendment to the motion or a second, please? DEMPSTER: I would second that. GRAY: Commissioner Watts has made a motion to recommend denial of the special use permit. Commissioner Dempster has seconded the motion. Paula rollcall vote, please? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Nay. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? GRAY: Aye. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 58 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 58 of 72 WOODWARD: Five, one. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Okay. Commissioners, informal straw poll. Do we want to carry on to agenda item 5 or do we want to take a five- or ten-minute break? DEMPSTER: Break. GRAY: Break. DEMPSTER: Break. GRAY: All right. We will recess for ten minutes. Let's reconvene at 8:45. [Ins] 2.54.33 [RECESS] CHAIRMAN GRAY: All right. We're back in session. Agenda item 5. Public hearing consideration of action. I'll skip to the end. RZ23-1. TAVASSOLI: Okay. Sorry. Trying to get this on presentation mode here. We'll just use this. Okay, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Commission. So the application request before you is a zone change for a .86 acre parcel which is a dual zone property right now. It is split between R1-35H and OSR, which is open space residential. The request is to zone it in such a way that it's uniformly zoned R1-35H. A little bit of history here. This property was actually replatted in March, just this past March. It was originally at about 29,000 square feet. With the replat it increased to 37,284 square feet and that was done through a transference of ownership from the Fire Rock Country Club to the applicant for this rezone request, a private owner of this property. So what the applicant is requesting is -- and let me just go straight to the map here. The property outlined in red is the parcel, is the subject parcel in question. A portion of which here is zoned open space residential, while the rest is zoned R1-35H. The applicant is requesting a rezoning of the OSR portion to R1-35H. The reason being, right now as it stands, the lot coverage percentage was already exceeded under the original configuration. The applicant wishes to make a few additions and the only way, in order not to exceed the lot coverage limits any further, and incidentally lot coverage limit is 20 percent, was to basically expand the boundaries of the property and Fire Rock County Club agreed to transfer ownership for a small portion of their property to the current landowner. And this is just depicting the fact that upon approval it will be uniformly zoned R1-35H. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 59 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 59 of 72 Just like the properties to the east and the west. And incidentally, to the south of Tombstone there, the property is zoned R1-35 with a RUPD overlay, which might have a few differences from the R1-35 base zoning standards. So a quick recommendation is to -- staff believes that this is worthy of approval. It creates a uniformly zoned R1-35H parcel. And it allows the applicants to make additions without exceeding the lot coverage limits, as I stated earlier. With that, I'll open it up to questions or comments. GRAY: Farhad, just one simple question. So with that incorporation of the OSR land, you mentioned in your presentation that that facilitates the expansion objectives of the owner. TAVASSOLI: Right. GRAY: Does that then reset them at that -- was it 20 percent maximum? TAVASSOLI: Yes. GRAY: So I guess, getting to my ultimate point here. They would have no coverage ability to build within that OSR space, right? It's a calculation rounding there at this point? TAVASSOLI: Right. GRAY: Okay. I was just trying to make sure that the OSR was actually preserved as its underlying intent in non-buildable space. Yeah. That's it. I have no objection. Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Just one question. Is that currently a single level home? TAVASSOLI: Yes. DEMPSTER: It is? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The addition is going above the garage. So it's not going to go out. DEMPSTER: So it's going above the garage? Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Okay. Paula, do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Larry go home? Okay. We'll close the public hearing. Commissioners a motion on agenda item 5? Commissioner Watts? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 60 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 60 of 72 WATTS: I move to approve the rezoning of the OSR for uniform zone R1-35H and it is RZ23-000001, as submitted. DAPAAH: I will second that motion. GRAY: Commissioner Watts has recommended approval of the rezone. Seconded by Commissioner Dapaah. I think on this one we'll go al in favor? ALL: Aye. GRAY: Opposed? WOODWARD: Six, zero. GRAY: Thank you very much, Paula. I'm sorry to make you guys wait. You should have brought more people. We took a vote. All right. Agenda item 8. Public hearing consideration possible direction on special use permit 2301, to permit ten apartments in three buildings on a third acre parcel at 16741 East Glenbrook. John? WESLEY: Commissioners. Try this again. See where we go with this one. Again, this is a consideration of a property at Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard, southeast corner. Area is platted there, it's zoned CC, common commercial, which is very similar to the C-1 zoning district, lowest end of our commercial districts. This one's a little unique in that it allows for common parking. It was platted in 1973 and has had limited development over the years. Last development was in 2004. This lot in question was used a playground for adjacent school some years ago, but it's not been in use for the last several years. The new owner seeks to put some apartments on this property. C-C does not allow residential by right. So two options, one be to rezone to a multi-residence district. Two choices there, might be the R-2 or R-3, allowing either seven or nine units. The other option is the special use permit for the C-C district which is what the applicant has chosen to request. So again, this is the property and you can see the surrounding zoning. Commercial to the north and south, R-2 further to the east, single residence to the west and the church is there on both sides of Glenbrook, west of Fountain Hills Boulevard. General plan encourages a range of housing types and densities. Encourages to protect and maintain neighborhood character. Support a mix of resident and employment and commercial uses. This character area is a mixed use neighborhood. So again, it TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 61 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 61 of 72 anticipates the commercial office, retail, and residential uses kind of being combined together. Again the requirements of the zoning ordinance for review of a special use permit. And so as we look at that as it applies to this specific request, will the proposed use be detrimental to the public health, safety, welfare? So here we are at a somewhat major intersection, first one as you come into town from the north. Has the commercial zoning, does have some commercial viability because of this location along a primary street. But as I stated at the beginning it's been platted and zoned for 50 years for the commercial development and none had happened to date. And so maybe we've done that long view that we've talked about earlier already, in terms of this property and its potential for that commercial activity. New residential would help support potentially the other commercial that's there by having more residents in close proximity. Will it be detrimental or injurious to surrounding properties? Sometimes people have a concern if you put residential in a commercial area, you might somehow limit that commercial development. Now, maybe there's some commercials that wouldn't happen because there's residential there. They lose confidence in the area as a commercial center or they or compatible with the residential use. So now the commercial tries to come in and the residents that are living there start protesting the commercial activities. So that can be an issue by bringing the commercial or the residential into a commercial area. But again, the residents should help support the commercial areas and the few number of units on a major street, not really worried about traffic issues that might come from this. The other one here, with new development, is the design and development of the property. It will be designed and developed in a way or can be, that it creates a desirable living environment as envisioned in the general plan. And so staff has a little bit of concern with this proposal because it is such a small tract at the corner. Applicant's been working on several different designs and layouts here. We still have a few issues that don't quite meet code yet and this is what I was going to say about my mistake earlier. In your packet I mistakenly I included this site plan as well as the previous one. So if you got confused about why you had two site plans in your packet, ignore the second one. This is the latest version. So the driveways aren't quite up to width. Those there guest parking spaces probably TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 62 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 62 of 72 don't really work and so there's going to be some additional design work that's going to need to happen on here. I'm thinking they may lose a unit. They don't want to. We'll just have to see what we continue to come up with. Some concerns about, again, this primary corner. The desire of the general plan that we start to establish some entry type features as we come into town and this is one of the intersections that is designated. So the wall in the back of the units, we're going to have to pay a lot of attention to the architecture and how that looks. And then if we went back to -- go down to look at this ten units, parking lots then on two sides. Major streets on other two sides, is it really creating a desirable living environment at this location. It's not located directly to the other residences a little further down the street. So again, that's where staff has a little bit of concern about this particular use permit and does it really -- will it add to the community the way we want to create a living environment and will be enjoyable to those who would live there. You can look at the site plan. In term of the site plan you've got the driveways and parking lots. Each unit will have a private yard, which is nice, but as far as other -- you come out your front door it's pretty much again in a kind of parking situation and not a lot of attractive elements there. There is a gate proposed that could lead them to the adjacent commercial development and there is a little bit of a park space right there, where that driveway has been closed off. And so that will provide may some amenity but it's not on site. So again, as a special use permit, a good neighbor policy could be required, or a good neighbor statement but it is a residential use, I didn't see where that was really necessary for this particular activity. They did follow through with the citizen participation process. Held a meeting. A couple of people attended from the adjacent development. They didn't have any specific comments. Staff had not had any comments. Will point out and I wish my clicker worked her, but we have approved special use permits at the southeast corner, you can barely see it in the corner of the development for Mr. Gurczack for his office downstairs and the residential use above. You also approved a special use permit for -- just right on the edge of the map, there kind of in the middle there's a two-story existing building. Several years ago approved a special use permit for residential on the second floor of that building. So we've approved other residential uses with special use permits in this development. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 63 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 63 of 72 We may have some more requests in the future, but those other two were different in that they didn't have the mixed use component to them. So with that comment and summary, proposed infill property, beneficial to get it developed, see new activity happening here, have new buildings, kind of help spark other development in the center. Residents, again, can provide support to the existing businesses, so all that's good. Some design issues that staff has could be resolved as we work in more detail on a site plan. So staff can recommend approval if Commission feels that we can continue working out that side issues. CHAIRMAN GRAY: Commissioner? Vice Chair. SCHLOSSBERG: A couple of quick questions. First of all, the elevations that we see, I'm assuming those are incredibly vague because they want to just get an indication of whether we're going to send this on. Is that whether -- WESLEY: Chairman, Vice Chairman, that's correct. They don't want to spend a whole lot of time and effort on the details until they know they've got approval. But I think I mention in the report that the applicant and developer here is the same one down at Trevino and Saguaro. The 17 units there just north of MCO, and you probably don't remember from looking at that a year or so ago, but we have a little more detail on those elevations, it's going to be the same elevation. SCHLOSSBERG: That's the same developer, you said? WESLEY: Same developer, yes. SCHLOSSBERG: It is? So another quick question, unrelated. We approved that and I know they had an extension. Are they going ahead with that project? WESLEY: Yes. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. And then, so the parking that's there is not going to be available for this particular -- WESLEY: That's correct. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. All right. I mean basically, it's -- with the charter school defunct and it's an ugly corner, I think this could be a nice enhancement. GRAY: John, you have any concern with the -- that we went through the architectural kind of -- where we got a advanced look at the architectural of the Gurczack TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 64 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 64 of 72 Development. These two developments sufficiently far enough apart to where they don't' need to influence each other? WESLEY: I believe that's correct. GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think I've got three comments. One, it looks awfully, awfully tight. And I think that if we can open it up a little bit, but I don't know if we can get that many units on this property. Is the Trevino property as tight from your recollection? Because I don't' remember that one. WESLEY: It's tight but they didn't have room for some amenity area in that one. To circulate -- they have the existing driveway that goes from Saguaro into the commercial center. So it's mostly on the north side. There's one unit on the south side as you get to the east. And they'd have a little bit more room. WATTS: And I notice there's only three visitor parking spaces which seems to be a little bit thin. And my biggest concerns is probably that the project is, at least because we don't have elevations at this point. It really is the gateway to Fountain Hills from the Rio Verde area and I don't know that it's all that appealing, without seeing elevation. So I would not be supportive unless I could see the elevation, see exactly what it's going to look like. WESLEY: And Mr. Harr, I'm sure, will get up here in a moment. And he's got some ideas that I think will be attractive, but we just haven't really seen them yet. But he can maybe describe some of that for you. WATTS: Okay. Thanks. GRAY: So John, if overflow traffic gets forced off and I get by the numbers it works with the three. Does that overflow, is there a spot for that to land on Glenbrook or Fountain Hills Boulevard there? WESLEY: Definitely not on Fountain Hills Boulevard. I'm not familiar enough with that little section of Glenbrook east of Fountain Hills Boulevard to remember if that would be possible. GRAY: But the outside of the double garages, three is the required calc? WESLEY: Correct. GRAY: Okay. Commissioner Corey? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 65 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 65 of 72 COREY: I was just going to comment. I think I read in the agenda that this has been underutilized property for 50 years. So that's pretty significant and I think getting something over there will help reinvigorate this area. So I wanted to mention that. And I'm looking at it, I do see, it looks like it's, kind of tight quarters around there, but I think there's a lot more properties that are being designed this way. So when we talk about the accommodations, the desirable living, different people feel different ways about them and I think more people are finding that this is still desirable living. But I would agree that we'd want to see the elevations and make sure that this is not just walls in the front but there's some sort of street appeal for people coming in. And then, just around changing the SUPs, we want to promote the mixed use. So while this is all commercial, I think this would be a benefit to that area, is all. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. I'm hoping that with no amenities it keeps it affordable and the prices down. I don't think every complex needs to have a big pool and we're finding a lot of them are choosing not to heat them anymore and to keep costs down and such. So that is not an issue for me. Talking about the gateway, I mean, on two of those corners there are parking lots. So I mean, I would think that this would look better, a lot better than a parking lot and there's room for some landscaping. So I'm not concerned with that. And also I like the project. I don't know if it makes sense to just make it R-3 and have nine units, if things don't fit. Or squish it and have the ten. But I like the project. WATTS: I like the project too. And I think the R-3 may be more applicable. But it just seems like there's five pounds in a one-pound bucket here. It's just awful tight. So the elevations are -- the more I look at them, I can see how they work. 675 feet square feet into one of the units and a 1,000. I like the 1,000. I don't' think I can live in 675 square feet, but that's not me. So I think if we consider the R-3 -- it is R-3, isn't it? WESLEY: It's currently C-C, I just showed that as an example of an alternative to the SUP -- WATTS: Alternative to the nine units. WESLEY: -- it would allow nine units. And I tend to agree. As we work on this at nine units it's probably going to fit a little bit better. WATTS: Right. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 66 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 66 of 72 WESLEY: But the applicant would really like ten if he can make it work. WATTS: Ten's going to tough but it's -- but nine would be better. So that's mine. GRAY: I think the -- Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Yeah. I'm going to go along with the Vice Chair, too. That's just an ugly corner there. I'd love to see this project materialize. But I want to see some more. I want to see some more and the elevation and what the structure is going to look like. But yeah, I'm willing to move forward with this. GRAY: I think the applicant -- HARR: If I may? GRAY: Of course. It's your application. HARR: I'm chomping at the bit. If I may, we have a -- based on -- my name is -- please. My name is Kirk Harr, I'm the applicant. And based on the, I think, the report that was prepared, I put together this handout. And I can go through it page by page. Just a couple of things, maybe some clarification is the units are actually. They're all three- bedroom, two and a half baths, and all the bedrooms have their own private patios. It's got the two-car garage. The smallest unit is 1,750 square feet. I think what you were looking at was the downstairs versus the upstairs numbers. And then the largest units are 1,800 and some odd, square feet. So they're going to be beautiful homes. I believe that the issues about the width of the road and the depth of the parking was a misunderstanding between our designer and what John and I were talking about. There is room to fix both of those issues. But to go through this package just really quickly. Page 1 shows that existing park that's in plat 206, that John had requested we put in a gate out of our property to that, which we're happy to do. The biggest thing here, when we first purchased this property, we assumed that we were in plat 206 and we are not. We are not in 206. So we have no right to any parking lots or anything else. So this small piece of property, if you try to do something with it and create all your own parking in the sense of a commercial, you can't really do much with the property. I'm a second generation home builder, my son is the third generation. I started building in 1975. I built in four states over my lifetime and I think I'm at 47 years of building homes. We built a little over 3,000 homes in that time. We built -- the majority of the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 67 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 67 of 72 homes we built were entry level homes in Washington State and we took pride in being able to provide housing for a lot of people that wouldn't have had one if it weren't for us. And that's kind of how we're feeling about these units. And it's states that they're an apartment but the anticipation is that they're condos. And based on the economy, if the interest rates come down and people can afford to take a mortgage that's what we'll do with them. We will condo and sell them as condos. Until then we will probably rent them out until we can sell them. Our desire is to sell our homes and that's what we do. We build in Fountain Hills currently, we build like a semi-custom home. We buy beautiful lots, beautiful views. We build about a 3,000 square foot home with a triple or a four-car garage. People love the homes that we build. But the prices have gone so much that they're not homes that a lot of people can afford and that comes back to our roots, that we love affordable housing. Affordable is different in everybody's idea and in Fountain Hills right now, I would have to defer to Dory Whitfield (ph.), our agent. But to get a home in Fountain Hills that is anywhere near 1,700 square feet with a two-car garage, three and a half baths, new, I don't think you can touch one for 8 or 900,000 around here. The older homes, most of them are pre-2000 with all the things that come with older homes. Systems that are outdated, don't work very well. Remodeling that has to be done. So I think there's going to be a large demand for these just like for the 17 units we're building out at Saguaro and Shea. My experience building homes is to have that -- and I need to look, I don't have my notes to look at the word that was a desirable living environment. Well, that's when we did -- when we designed these that's what we tried to do. I don't know anybody personally that lives in their driveway. And so the front of the house, as long as you've got a driveway and you've got some landscaping, that's wonderful. Where we put the space is in the backyard. And every one of these has a private backyard. So you can have a dog, you can have picnics, you can do whatever you want to do, which you can't do in an apartment. You can't do in a lot of the affordable housing that's around here. So anyway, that's the existing park, was the first page. The second page shows where -- you can see the curb and that kind of the park area, the fence and the sidewalk to the right TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 68 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 68 of 72 is the entry into the existing parcel that we have. And which we will install a gate to. The third picture shows an existing block and iron fence that's currently on site. We anticipate that besides updating it, painting it, that's what we would like to be there so that you're not just looking at a five or six foot tall painted block fence when you're driving by the property. The next page, we talked about the gateway and it doesn't sound like that's an issue here. But we added this page and made red dots where there's a lot of places that -- if you want to get a welcome to Fountain Hills feeling, those would be as good or better places to do it. Then the next page just shows that -- where you see the corner of Glenbrook and north Fountain Hills Boulevard, it says 290K, that's our property. In this whole plat 206 which covers larger than a square block, there's three other buildings and one, actually two houses. This is a fairly old aerial. And the rest of it is just all vacant because, like everybody said it just -- there's more commercial here than were needed. I heard an interesting fact that when Fountain Hills was designed, it was designed for 72,000 people and it's currently 24,987. We just have too much commercial space. And then the last page is the proposed exterior. This is what we plan on building at Saguaro and Shea. Whether it's the same colors or not, we're not saying that. We're probably wouldn't do it the same colors. But this is the front part that you would actually see from inside the roadway. The rear, we didn't have a color photo that we could get to today. But it also has -- it will have the fence on the outside, on the street side of Fountain Hills Boulevard. It has backyard there. I don't know if the -- looking at the site, it probably look like there probably 18 to 20 feet between the back of the house and the fence, which is 5 or 7 feet off the sidewalk. So I mean there's good spacing. And then up above, on the back, there's porches upstairs for the second and third bedrooms. They have their own space outside, plus looking over onto the yard. We can provide other draft elevations we have but right now on the project at Saguaro and Shea, we are just trying to finalize our site plan. We hope to have that done in the next couple of weeks and then we can submit for our building permits. So -- and my understanding is, a lot of this process that we go through in the building permit stage, both on that project and on this one, we'll redefine what the project is going to look like and what makes it a good project. So I do believe that we can meet the intent of the code TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 69 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 69 of 72 with road widths and parking. You'll notice looking at the picture, you see the reddish part on that corner of Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard, that is sidewalk. We've agreed to do quite a bit of landscaping on that whole frontage. A lot of trees, a lot of bushes and whatever else we need to put in there to give it a nice statement other than just a parking lot or some empty commercial sitting there. If I can answer any other questions at this time, I'd be happy to. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Well, first I stand corrected. It's getting late and I'm read the wrong line. So I understand what you're saying. And the elevations helped enormously. So they do look very nice. HARR: Thank you. WATTS: And I think as long as -- I'm going to change my position, as long as you can work it out with building department and be compliant with all of their requirements, then I would be a supporter. HARR: Thank you. GRAY: Paula, do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, final discussion or a motion? Commissioner Corey? COREY: I'll make a motion. Motion to recommend approval of special use permit for the ten apartments, three buildings on the parcel located at 16741 Glenbrook, southwest corner of Glenbrook Boulevard, Fountain Hills Boulevard. WATTS: Second. GRAY: Commissioner Corey has recommended approval of the special use permit. Commissioner Watts has seconded. Paula, let's do rollcall on this one. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 70 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 70 of 72 WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? DAPAAH: Aye. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray? GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: Six, zero. GRAY: Could have done it the easy way. Just making sure everybody's awake. WESLEY: No way. GRAY: Do you need it tonight? WESLEY: No. GRAY: All right. Commission I'm going to make a motion that we postpone -- WESLEY: It can continue to your June meeting. GRAY: -- postpone indefinitely to June. That we continue to the June venue agenda item 9. Modifications for Chapter 6, sign regulations and zoning ordinance. However, we will continue with agenda item 10, 11, and 12. All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRAY: Robert and his rules will like that motion, John. Okay. Agenda item 9 -- no, sorry. 10. Commission discussion, request for research to Mr. Wesley or Mr. Farhad. WESLEY: Well -- GRAY: Oh, boy. WATTS: I think tonight kind of gave us a vision of pandora's box so to speak. That all the work we put together to put the community standards, community residences into place, can be usurped by simply -- not necessarily the SUP but changing the code to something else that may be by right. And I think that is problematic and I'd like to get some input on it from you and staff as to did we leave a gaping loophole in something that would come back to cause us a lot of angst? WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner Watts, I guess there's always that possibility that we -- well, certainly there's always some gaps here and there, whatever. But the zoning ordinance has in the multi-residence and commercial districts, a separate category for TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 71 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 71 of 72 nursing homes, convalescent homes, and homes for the elderly. And the multi-residence requires a special use permit, it's by right in the commercial districts. Again, it's what Morning Side is. It's what Fountain Hills -- what am I trying to say? WATTS: Fountain Dew Village. WESLEY: Thank you. Fountain Dew Village is. This just happens to be a smaller version of one of those larger ones, that's what they're applying for. And it's in really a different category than a group home in a single family home. WATTS: What does it suggest though that the existing facilities that had by right, they didn't have to meet the current requirements, that they're going to come back to us and try to increase by changing the zoning, by asking for an SUP that would change the zoning to something else? WESLEY: So an SUP is not a change in zone. The zoning district stays the same. I'd have to look back at the map. I cannot recall any other ones that are in multi-use residence zones. I believe all the other ones are in single residence zones which would allow for the SUP for the nursing home or the convalescent home, or the home for the aged, or home for the elderly. WATTS: I just want to make sure that we didn't leave some loophole and if you could check on that, that would be great. GRAY: What was the underlying zoning of that? WESLEY: R-3. GRAY: R-3, right. Yeah, I had a similar disposition as Commissioner Watts. I thought maybe we had unintentionally left a backdoor open by going outside of our definition and saying well, if we just go one more then we can -- then we can come around through this process. So -- okay. Any other requests for research or discussion? Okay. Agenda item 11, summary of Commission request from development services director? WESLEY: My summary is that we're going to look at our community residences and our nursing home regulations and see if we missed the boat in there with anything. GRAY: And report? WESLEY: And then report. I was waiting for the Commission to say the next number or not. So we will obviously be following up in June to further our discussion of the signed TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 72 of 72 MAY 8, 2023, PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING MINUTES Page 72 of 72 ordinance. I will probably take a stab at some things without the input I might have received this evening if we had had the time to review it. But other than that, we have a couple of applications that are slowly working their way through the process. We're not sure if we will any other applications for your June meeting. Where I'm going with that though is thinking about July in particular. And are we having commissioners here or should we be planning on not having one and kind of working with the applicants that are kind of trying to move forward and let them know we're not going to have a July meeting or an August meeting or whatever months again. I want to see again, just a kind of a check or not -- GRAY: Yeah. Straw polling I will not be here in July. COREY: And I will not be here in August. DEMPSTER: I won't be here in August. WATTS: I'm stuck here all summer. GRAY: Yeah, we'll have to get a little closer to dial in, but it looks like July and August will be -- we have a quorum, it sounds like, but if we didn't have one, it sounds like maybe August is a little bit more of a challenge if we have two already not going to be here in August. But we'll try to manage or caseload with those thing in mind. To at least miss one of those two. Okay. That's it. All right. We're adjourned. Thank you.