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HomeMy WebLinkAbout230313 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 1 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 1 of 75 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission Regular Meeting March 13, 2023 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 2 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 2 of 75 GRAY: I'd like to call this meeting to order. This is the March 13th version of the Fountain Hills Planning and Zoning Commission. If you would all please rise with us for the Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of Silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [MOMENT OF SILENCE] GRAY: Thank you. All right. Call of roll call please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg. SCHLOSSBERG: Here. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray. GRAY: Here. Thank you, Paula. Agenda item 3, call to the public. Paula, do we have any call to the public speaker cards? WOODWARD: Yes, Chairman, there are three. GRAY: Thank you very much. Let's go ahead and call them up. WOODWARD: In order, first speaker is Crystal Cavanaugh, Jane Bell, and Larry Meyers. CAVANAUGH: Good evening. September 24th, 2022, a property located at 16927 East Saguaro, behind the Denny's area, near the Old Firerock community was marketed by Grace CRE as an amazing office space or potential wellness rehab property in the heart of Fountain Hills. Some of us were concerned enough with that statement that we actually mentioned it at a town council. One month later, this sold for $1 million to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 3 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 3 of 75 Angel Heart Health Services. A warranty deed was not recorded but there is a contract to conveyance between the seller and the two principles of Angel Heart Health Services. Shouldn't a realtor know what the zoning is before marketing a non-conforming use? Shouldn't a purchaser check out zoning restrictions? This property is zoned, here in Fountain Hills, as C-0, commercial/office. We have an ordinance on the books describing what types of businesses can operate in this zone. It is defined quite specifically. It's meant for well-designed, attractive businesses that meet criteria for perpetual or semi-professional offices that transition between other commercial land uses and residential neighborhoods in the area. The ordinance clearly lists business types that conform, such as: accountants, doctors, dentists, chiropractors, engineers, private detectives, lawyers, and financial institutions. The only type of counseling services allowed is for marital counseling. An NPI number tells people who you are and what you do. Angel Heart Health Services has a taxonomy provider number associated with being an addiction or substance use disorder counselor. Their state license is for behavioral health. And the two principles are listed as behavioral analysts. Behavioral health services do not conform to this zoning. We have an ordinance clearly stating where behavioral health can occur and it can't occur in C-0. Apparently, this business has not yet officially opened. They have not yet applied for a business license in Fountain Hills. If the future application states counseling services, it is imperative that town staff know what counseling services will be provided. Substance abuse and addiction services are non-conforming and should not be approved. If anyone is currently unaware of the behavioral health licensing category for this business, they need to do some research. Going directly to the Angel Heart Health Services website gives a description of their services and lists medical associates. Medical personnel are not usually needed for marital counseling. We have land use restrictions and zoning ordinances for reasons. Just as with Mountainside, citizens need to be able to count on zoning being enforced with staff making the decisions in the best interest of our community. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] GRAY: Folks, we're going to try and keep in moving tonight, so if we could refrain from TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 4 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 4 of 75 the applause. BELL: Chairman and Commissioners, I am here tonight asking for your help in denying a business permit to operate by the Angel Heart Health Services, newly located at 16927 East Saguaro Boulevard. This parcel is zoned C-0 and is very specific in its uses for behavior health, is not 1, Angel Heart is a behavioral health services by our own website, state licensing, NPI, and is not marriage counseling. Their centers are responsible for assuring the delivering of community-based mental health, mental retardation, substance abuse, and/or behavioral health. Giving services to individuals and their disabilities. Drug treatment and behavioral health terms are often used interchangeably in both businesses to address drug addiction. According to the state Board of Behavioral Health examiners of Arizona, there is this Title 32, Chapter 33, Behavioral Health Professions. Under 32-3351, Number 7, under definitions, "The practice of marriage and family therapy means the professional application of family systems theories, principles, and techniques to treat interpersonal relations issues." Under 10, "Practice of substance abuse counseling means and includes the use of psychotherapy for the purpose of evaluation, diagnosis, and treatment." Angel Heart Services are subject -- I mean are substance abuse treatment businesses as per their own website. And the eyes of the State of Arizona licensing. No business license should be granted for this use in this commercial zoning on C-0. Please make sure to uphold the ordinance governing land use as written by the town ordinance. I want to show you this, and I think it makes a statement on it. Angel Heart Services is a mental health clinic. Now we're familiar with Fountain Hills Recovery Center. And beside it, it's a mental health treatment. These words are used to interchangeably, you got to be astute to it. If it quacks like a duck, it is a duck. Thank you. MEYERS: Chair, Commissioners, not to belabor the point, I handed you a handout that's only half of what there is. I ran out of paper, ran out of ink. I will email it. So as was stated, this parcel is C-0. There's a list of things that can be done in C-0. By our own standards, behavioral health is not a use in C-0. The NPI on all of Angel Heart's Services facilities throughout the valley, of which there TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 5 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 5 of 75 are many, their NPI is behavior substance abuse. Their taxonomy is substance abuse counselor. That's the facility. The principles are behavioral analysts by their own NPI number. So everyone concerned with this particular business, which is applying or has applied for a business license to operate in Fountain Hills in the C-0 office district is connected with behavioral health. And we've just gone through two years where this commission and the counsel delineated behavioral health from the definition of hospital so that they couldn't exist in C-1. Why would it exist in a lower zoning C-0, be allowed to exist there. And a beautifully written ordinance for where it actually can exist was just forwarded on from this body to the counsel, passed with one minor change, and that's not C-0, that's C- 2/C-3, if all of the parameters can be met. One more item to bring to your attention. The state, they're licensed with the state, is for behavior health. And they're seven citations from the Tempe facility, and I'm not mentioning the citations because they have them, they're citations are for abuses of behavioral health. So as my colleague, Ms. Bell said, sounds like a duck, it's quacking like a duck, pretty sure it is a duck. It's already purchased the building. Sorry, you should know what your zoning is. And they're going to be applying for a business license. So I would -- I am only here to bring this to this body's attention. I'm here to bring it to staff's attention. And we're, as a citizen, as a group of citizens, we -- we're not going to allow it. This is an ordinance that's written. It's on the books. It hasn't even been changed in I don't know how many years. C-0's been there for a long time. And this use not a C-0 use. I don't care if the word counseling -- counseling of a lot of different things. So if they're not a marriage counselor, they're not in C-0 as far as we're concerned. Thank you very much. GRAY: Any more speaker cards? WOODWARD: Yes, Chairman. Bob Strasser (phonetic). STRASSER: Thank God they spoke before me because I can be even briefer. They said -- they said a lot of the things that I was going to get into but when we purchased the house in 2018 in Fountain Hills, one of the areas that I did diligent research on was zoning, schools, things like that to decide that I was going to live here. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 6 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 6 of 75 What I'm seeing is the trend that other -- other communities -- other communities are -- are not getting -- are not having these sorts of organizations frequency -- frequenting them. They instead -- it's a cash -- basically, it's a cash making operation. The -- the organizations that start, they get reimbursed a large amount of money. It's -- the whole purpose of it, really isn't -- is a drug rehab, isn't really counseling. It's about the bucks that they get for every patient that they take in. And I agree with Larry. I agree with Jane. And for crying out loud, I -- I don't want to see Fountain Hills become known as the rehab/rehabilitation capital of Arizona. That concerns me. And you know, if -- if I would have known some of these things in '18, I probably would have weighed them to decide to pick up permanent residence here. I lived 15 years before that in a -- in a condo, which we owned. But when we decided to make the big move and get -- get the -- get the house, that was definitely on the list. So I would encourage you, as Larry said, leave the zoning the way it is, zero, and use it according to the use that prior commissioners, prior village -- or town boards have -- have designated the -- the zero as. Let's not change it. Let's leave it the way it is. I thank you. GRAY: Okay. That concludes the Call to the Public. We'll move on to agenda item number 5 of public hearing, Consideration and Possible Action to resume the 3.1 acres of the 6.3 acre property from R1-10, Single Family Residential to R-3 and the rezoning of 3.2 acres of the same property from R-4 multifamily to R-3 multifamily. Farhad, your presentation, please. TAVASSOLI: Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, and the public, as most of you well know, this items was continued from the January 9th meeting. Two months later, here we are revisiting the case. And just to -- as a brief refresher, I've prepared four slides. And also I'll introduce the modified tentative development plan. But in summary, as you mentioned, Mr. Chairman, this is a rezone proposal for a 6.3 acre property from the R1-10 single family zoning district to the R-4 multifamily zoning district -- or rather, and the R-4 multifamily zoning district to the R-3. The property, the subject property is 6.3 acres. Now, the -- although not depicted here, the northern half of the property is zoned R1-10 and the southern half is currently zoned R-4. The applicant plans on replatting the 6.3 acre property because it does currently TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 7 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 7 of 75 consist of two different parcels, assuming the proposed rezone is approved. So the zone-change request, as I mentioned, I won't go over the first three bullets here but the -- planned use is a proposal for an 80-unit, multifamily development consisting of four buildings. Each building is three stories, including a tuck under -- including tuck under garages. There be a combination of garage and surface parking, which you'll see in the -- the modified, or rather build-side plans. And there are two vehicular access points proposed off of Mountainside Drive. This was the tentative development plan that the applicant came forward with at the January 9th meeting. As you can see, the four buildings that I discussed earlier briefly, they consist of 80 units. Building 3, as you can see, was originally proposed to be 30 feet from the property line, facing Mountainside Drive. And as I mentioned there are two access points, originally proposed to be full ingress egress access. The applicant recently has come forth was a modified development plan. And as you can see, Buildings 3 and 4, particularly the -- the south side in, by the way, north is -- actually I do have the north arrow right there for reference. But the -- the, I guess you'd say the lower-left hand corner of Buildings 3 and 4 have been shifted a little bit towards the east in such a way where Building 3 is now about 90 feet from Mountainside Drive. And Building 4 is approximately parallel to that. This is to address some of the commission and -- and public's concerns about the prominence of some of these buildings from the Lost Hills' neighborhood to the -- directly to the west. Buildings 1 and 2, due to some design consideration -- considerations, particularly with the topography, the applicant has decided to keep those in place as they were originally. The other difference being that, although the same two access points are the same alignment as they were before, the applicant is proposing that the south drive way provide only limited access for emergency vehicles and solid waste pickup. And that would include a gate with a Knox Box should any of those vehicles need to access the -- the development. In place of where Building 3 once stood in its original orientation, the applicant has provided additional land -- or is proposing additional landscaping. So like I said, I -- I was keeping my comments brief. The applicant can -- well, actually has a presentation to present before you today as well in which he will discuss these modifications more TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 8 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 8 of 75 briefly. But I will be happy to answer any questions before I hand it over to the applicant. GRAY: Commissioners, preliminary questions for Farhad? Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Yeah, Farhad, I'm looking at this drawing and don't see any indication or anything that addressed the drainage that is existing now on the property. Is there anything there that we don't see or -- TAVASSOLI: Commissioner, Chairman -- or Chairman, Commissioner Dapaah, so currently the -- it is sloped towards the east. So the natural drainage drains into this wash right here to the far east. And so the applicant does have a -- has considered tentatively what that drainage plan would -- would look like and he can discuss it in more detail. But for the most part, the applicant does not -- doesn't have any plans to disrupt any of the flow -- natural flows. They will be redirected, but they will still drain into the wash. DAPAAH: Okay. Does this -- this is a Senderos development. Do they own any other development here in town? TAVASSOLI: None that I'm aware of, Commissioner. DAPAAH: None here in town? TAVASSOLI: None that I'm aware here in -- in town. DAPAAH: Okay. All right. I'll hold GRAY: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Yeah, thanks, Farhan, can you just jump back to the first design. We don't have that in the deck here, so I wanted to -- just get the visual. Okay, so those buildings were turned and pushed down the hill a little bit, Building 3 and 4. I see -- okay, thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Before I -- point of clarification. By right, Buildings 1 and 2 could be constructed, and probably a portion of Building 3 without -- or closer to Morningside. And they could be more dense. So form a practical standpoint, we're really talking about Building 4 more than anything else. That -- that's where the rezoning has to take place to accommodate, we can go from single family resident. In that case, the seat of the C-4 zoning -- or I'm sorry -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 9 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 9 of 75 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: R-4 WATTS: -- R-4 zoning, can you tell me what the minimum and maximum building envelope are for those areas? I'm trying to get a sense of how many residents could be in that area. Would it be as congested as having Building 4, would it be worse, so? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner, I don't have the minimum building setback standards before me. But the -- when comparing R-3 and R-4, the setback from Mountainside in both cases is -- is 30 feet. But as far as the setback standards, I'd have to refer to the table, and I can do that at a -- describe the building envelope required for the zoning district. WATTS: So what I'm getting at is in the single family zoning, that R-4, even though, theoretically, you can take the three acres and you can do the math and say I can get 13 residences in there. The practicality of that is, it's not going to happen. TAVASSOLI: That's correct, yes. WATTS: So most likely, it's going to be closer to some where's 7 or 8, depending upon a lot of factors. So again, going to Building 4, we're talking about an increase in density in that building as opposed to the -- the single family residents, but the disruption is going to be equal. And my concern really is that Building 1, 2, and 3, if we can't come to some sort of terms, we could end up with kind of a mess. It could be pulled closer to Mountainside. The elevations could change. And I'm trying to make sense out of why to approve it and to move forward, to support it and try to make sure that we don't get something that we didn't intend to get in the first place and get something worse in the product that's being suggested. That's more of a statement, sorry about that Farhad. TAVASSOLI: That's quite all right. Point well taken. COMMISSIONER GRAY: Farhad, just one more in -- in last month's hearing, we did talk a little bit about trying to find a way to, I think we used the word parlay on the church's entrance off of Palisades, I assume that was explored between developer and -- and staff and considered prohibitive? TAVASSOLI: Correct. Mr. Chairman, there -- there were a number of considerations with regards to the drainage and the engineering and some rather large culverts would -- would be required if -- if that were to occur. GRAY: Okay. And then, do you have, I think last month we had the -- a civil plan in the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 10 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 10 of 75 packet. Do we have that today? TAVASSOLI: I -- GRAY: Or is that in the developer's presentation? TAVASSOLI: -- maybe, but -- but yeah, I did not include a -- a grading and drainage plan with the -- the recent presentation. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, other questions of Farhad? Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: The east end, that's a drain -- there's an easement along the east end of the property, because I -- correct? TAVASSOLI: Correct. KOVACEVIC: And it runs -- and that's -- is it four drains? It's specifically a drainage easement? TAVASSOLI: Correct. There's a -- a drainage easement encompassing that wash. KOVACEVIC: And then, that easements not being modified? TAVASSOLI: There's no plans to modify that easement. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Okay. Farhad, let's have the developer's presentation, then we'll go to the public hearing. FARHAD: Okay. I'll pull up his presentation here before I leave the podium. MAROWITZ: Good evening, Chairman Gray, Commissioners, for your record, my name is Mike Marowitz with the law firm of Snell and Wilmer at One East Washington Street in -- in Phoenix. And I represent Senderos who is the developer of -- of this project and with me here in attendance are a number of other representatives from the development team. One of the things that -- that I love about my job as a zone attorney is, I get to work on a lot of different development projects and zoning cases in different cities, different towns, and different counties, and as I shared at the last hearing in January, this is one of the most unique cases that -- that I have ever been a part of. And in fact it involves things that I've never been a part of. This is a situation where a developer, in order to build a better designed project, is requesting to rezone a property that results in a down-zone of half the property so that less units can be built on the property today so that the open space that can be provided TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 11 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 11 of 75 today is significantly increased. And so that the traffic that can be generated on this property today is also lessened. Those are -- those are very rare thing -- rare things. But it's a type of development that -- that you expect to see in Fountain Hills. And now, as you'll see, as I go through my presentation, the benefits of approving this zoning application when compared to leaving the zoning in place are exactly those things that -- that now we get much more open space than a by-right development. We have reduced traffic. And we get a much better project design that lowers the buildings, that utilizes slopes so we can lower them down the hill, that orients them in a way so that when viewed from the single family homes to our west, it's not as impactful to views. And I'll show that at I go through the presentation. As Farhad had noted, over the last two months, we spent a lot of time with the help from city staff on working on design changes so that we could address some of the comments and feedback that we received at the last hearing. And I'll go through those in a little bit more detail in this presentation. But before I do that, I want to give just a little bit background information to supplement Farhad's presentation. This is an aerial context map of the property and the surrounding area. And you can see the property is highlighted in yellow there. And it's located at the southeast corner of Palisades and Salin -- Palisades and Mountainside Drive. And for those of you that know this area well, you know that this property slopes significantly to the east. And it also follows a very common land use and zoning pattern where at the corner of your intersection as you go down the hill at Fountain Hill Boulevard and Palisades, you have your commercial land uses. And then, as you move your way west up the hill, past Fountain Hills Boulevard, you have your multifamily land uses. Directly adjacent to our property are the Four Peaks Condominiums. And then, as you move up the hill on our property to the west across Mountainside Drive, that's where you have our single family homes. So our property very much sits as the land use -- part of the land use transition from commercial, multifamily, then to single family residences. Here's a closer-up image of the property. It's a little bit over 6 acres in size. And as Farhad explained, it's currently two parcels today, with a north parcel that's right along Palisades Boulevard. And that one's zoned R1-10. And then the south parcel, which is TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 12 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 12 of 75 also a little over 3 acres in size, that's zoned R-4. You can't see it too well on this slide, but again, as Farhad had mentioned, this property has a very significant slope. And in fact, there is a 60-foot drop from Mountainside Drive to our west, down to the east. That's a 60-foot drop, which presents significant design challenges, but as explained in January, it also provides us an opportunity, because one of the benefits about proving this rezoning application compared to a by-right development, is that it gives us more space so we can spread the buildings out and lower them down the hill and utilize the slopes, so that way we are protecting and preserving the views of the single family homes that are to our west. Farhad mentioned the zoning for the south parcel zone R-4. And what that means is, R-4 is the town's multifamily zoning district. And under its existing zoning standards, you could build that property today, legally by right, with 70 multifamily units. And you could do that without any zoning change. Meaning, that development could happen without any review by the planning commission or by the city council. So you would just need to comply with the minimum development standards. And in fact, when Senderos first approached us, the initial intent was, well let's just develop that property to the south. That property is already rezoned -- or is already zoned for multifamily, so let's build 70 multifamily units on that property. And we showed you at the last hearing of what that development would look like through that conceptual site plan. But there were a number of problems with that development, that while you could do it, makes it not a very great development that certainly isn't compatible with the area or consistent with the type of high-quality development that you expect to see in Fountain Hills. For starters, because it's a small property, you would have to cram your buildings very close together. And because of that, you'd have to locate your buildings up the hill, closer to Mountainside Drive. And what that does is, it causes the buildings to sit up higher on the slope, so that when viewed from the single family homes to our west, the buildings are sitting much higher and blocking views. Nice thing about our development proposal is we can move them down. And I'll explain that in a bit. The other problem you have is, because it's not a large property, and you're putting your three buildings in there for your 70 units, you don't have a lot of open space. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 13 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 13 of 75 Our rezoning proposal, by incorporating that property to the north, results in 66 percent open space. That is an incredibly high number of open space. And we're able to do that because with our rezoning proposal, it doubles the size of our property, and we're only adding ten additional units. The last problem with a buy-right development on the R-4 parcel is that you don't have a lot of frontage there along Mountainside Drive. And so you just have the one access point to the south. And so all your traffic from 70 units is coming in and out on that southern drive on Mountainside Drive which causes a number of problems and why we have restricted that access and now for only emergencies and also for solid waste collection. So the reason we are here before you today is so that we can build a much better designed development by incorporating the north parcel. That north parcel is zoned R1-10, which means to build single family homes on that property today. And what we are proposing to do is rather than simply developing that property to the north with 70 units, we're proposing to double the size of the property by incorporating that property to the north so that we're rezone the R1-10 piece to R-3 and then downzone the R-4 piece to R-3 so we can build a much better designed development that now looks like this. As you can see, this development provides 80 dwelling units spread out through four buildings. And it solves a number of the challenges that you had if you just built that property to the south with your 70 dwelling units. The first is, as you can see, is that we're able to now spread the buildings out significantly. And we can lower them down the hill and utilize a slope to angle the buildings, so that way now, the buildings are sitting much lower than they would be sitting up higher on Mountainside Drive. And so that's doing a really good job now of respecting the views of the single family homes to the west. The other thing is, now that we have more property and we're only adding ten additional units, you can see just how much open space we're providing. This site plan provides 66 percent open space. And one of the reasons that we're able to do that is that now that we have this additional site area, there is a lot of the proportion of the property that we're not touching. So wrapping around our property to the east and to the north is a wash. And also where the drainage easement is located. This development does not touch the limits TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 14 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 14 of 75 of that drainage easement or that wash at all. It leaves it completely untouched, which is allowing us to provide this development that leaves that wash in its natural environment. And would really be a nice natural feature. And again, provides a type of open space that you'd expect to see in Fountain Hills. The other thing is, because we're only 80 dwelling units compared to a development that would be 70 units to the south and then single family homes to the north, is that we're really reducing the traffic. Because we're developing less units in what you could probably than -- than you could develop there by right. And -- or very close to the amount. And we could go through some of those numbers that our traffic engineer put together as well. As I mentioned, over the last two months, we listened to the feedback and comments that we received in January and worked very hard with the help from city staff on design changes that best address, or does its very best to address those -- the comments that we received. And this site plan provides an overlay, so you can see exactly the changes that we made. So as Farhad explained, we first take in Building 4, and we've dropped it down the hill to the east, so that way now it's sitting at the edge of the drainage easement line. And then we've taken Building 3, we've dropped it as well. And we've dropped the southwest corner of the building an additional 60 feet. And that does a number of things. It now leaves 90 feet of separation between our building, between the corner of that building and -- and our west property line, which allows us to provide a lot more landscaping and open space that's now separating our building from Mountainside Drive. So that way neighbors, rather than looking at a building pushed up against a street, have a lot of landscape and open space that is separating our building from the -- their home. The other thing it does is, because we're now moving it down the hill, is it drops the height of the building. That Building 3 now only sits 8 feet above the finished floor elevation of the single family homes to the west of Mountainside Drive. 8 feet is less than your standard, typical single family home. And we've been able to accomplish that because of the creative way that we've been able to utilize the slope and drop this building. The other big thing that we've done, as Farhad had noted, is that we've restricted that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 15 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 15 of 75 southern driveway to now emergency ingress and egress and then solid waste collection. So that a garbage truck could get in there and collect trash. And that resolves a number of concerns that we had heard. The very first was, because this property sits on the slope, there was a concern that a resident using that southern driveway would be angled upwards and would be flashing headlights into the single family homes that are to the west of Mountainside Drive. Now, by preventing residents from using that access, that is no longer a -- no longer a concern. The other thing it does is, again, this is a very unique property and a lot of design considerations have to go into it. And our team has spent a lot of time to making sure that we're developing an appropriate development. But Mountainside Drive undulates. And the high point in Mountainside Drive is at Ponderosa Drive, at least as far as the frontage of our property. And that creates a little bit of an unsafe condition, is a concern that we had heard, where traffic that is coming down Mountainside Drive to the south, when they get over the hill, it creates a little bit of a blind spot where there's a dangerous condition if you have all of our traffic on that southern driveway. The nice thing is now, about restricting this driveway is all of our traffic will now be on that northern driveway that's now directing our traffic closer to -- to that intersection. These are examples of how this development, because we're going through this zoning process, has been able -- we've been able to listen to the concerns and comments and come up with a design that seeks to be a solution to some of these issues. The other thing that we've done is we've worked with city staff to propose stipulations to be approved alongside our rezoning application. And the intent of these stipulations is to ensure that the development of this property is developed exactly, or in conformance with the way that we are proposing, but also for the development to be a solution to some of the issues that have been raised. And so I want to go through these quickly. Stipulations 1 through 7 were all included in the staff report that was provided to you, so the language is identical. And then we've added a new stipulation 8, which I'll describe. But to go through it quickly. Stipulation No. 1 requires general conformance to our site plan. And then subsections (a) through (e) identify specific items in the site plan that need to be complied with, including, limiting the development to four buildings, requiring Buildings 1 and 2 to be TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 16 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 16 of 75 angled away from Mountainside Drive, requiring Building 3 to be dropped a minimum of 70 feet from Mountainside Drive. So examples in the site plan that we've incorporated in order to be respectful of the neighboring properties will now be required for this property. Stipulation No. 2 requires general conformance with our elevations. One of the things that we've done in terms of the design to respect the views of the neighboring homes is that we've provided a flat roof with no mechanical equipment on the roof. And so you'll see in subsection (a) and (b), that requires us to not allow any mechanical equipment on the roof. Stipulation No. 3 requires us to provide a minimum of 60 percent open space. Stipulation No. 4 requires the development to be limited to a maximum of 80 dwelling units. No. 5 requires us to make that restriction to the south driveway so it's only used for emergencies and solid waste collection. And then, 6, 7 (a) are examples of ways that this development can be a solution to some of the existing problems that exist on Mountainside Drive. So Stipulation No. 6 requires the developer to work with the town's traffic engineer. To install improvements, such as no parking signs or striping to restrict parking on Mountainside Drive, which is one of the concerns that we had heard from residents. And then Stipulation No. 7 requires the developer to impose an enforce a no -- no parking restrictions. And that would take the form of the lease agreement with future residents that lived in the community to prevent them from parking there. And then we've added the eighth one. And the reason we bolded that is because that is a new stipulation that we have added which was added after the staff report was published. And it requires the developer to install speed bumps or speed humps on Mountainside Drive, because one of the concerns that we heard is that with Mountainside Drive, even though there are stop signs there, there is a little bit of an issue where people are driving above the speed limit, or even running that stop line. And so having -- or that stop sign. And so having these speed bumps or speed humps will help to address that issue. Before I conclude I want to cover this slide. Neighborhood outreach is an incredibly important component of any development project. And this development team has spent countless hours going around door-to-door with the individual neighbors to show them TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 17 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 17 of 75 this development proposal, address any comments or questions that they have. And this slide summarizes the support that we've received for the proposal. So listed on the slide are 58 letters of support from the property owners in green that are identified by the marker there. And those 58 support letters were all provided with your case packet today. Then we have 41 individuals who have asked us to label them as verbal support because for one reason or another did not want their support signed in a letter that was added then to a public case file. And then we have 130 that are identified in yellow who have asked us to list them as neutral support, meaning they didn't have any comments or questions about the development. And this goes to show just how much work in community involvement that this development team has done. And the reason that we're able to do this is, again, because we're going through this rezoning process. So rather than the by-right development that could be 70 units on the south parcel with no control over where the buildings are located, they would just need to meet the minimum building setback standards. And then having a -- a development to the north, that would likely be a single family development, with us, we did a design that not only gets to, again, reduce the density, reduced traffic, significantly increased open space, and work on design components by angling the building to better respect views, but it also gets to be solutions. And so with that, we respectfully request your recommendation of approval subject to the stipulations that we've proposed. Although, before I conclude, Chairman Gray, if it's okay, before questions, I would like to bring up the developer, Ron Cuttler (phonetic) to say a few words, if that's okay. GRAY: Sure thing. Mr. CUTTLER: Chairman Gray, Commissioners, I represent the developers, Senderos, for this application. I just wanted to give a little bit of background and history with Senderos. Senderos is a group of investors that have invested substantially in Arizona. I've been involved with them for over 15 years. They've done some really nice developments around town. Going back a little bit further, I was actually involved in the development and the marketing sale of Thunder Ridge in Fountain Hills. I know TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 18 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 18 of 75 Commissioner Dapaah, you asked about any -- if the developer owns any properties here. That was a for-sale community. So we developed that and it was sold as condominiums, as well as a couple other developments I was involved in. Before that were Majestic Point in Sunflower Villas in town as well. The -- I just wanted to make a point and make it clear that the developer, the people that I represent. They're very -- they understand the concerns of the neighbors. They take them seriously. And they want a development that the community could be proud of. That's their modus operandi. That's how they've always operated. That's how we've developed in the past. If you look at the past projects, the one that we just completed in South Phoenix, that they have bought South Mound called Senderos at south mountain, that gives you a really good ideas of the kind of development that we like to put our name to, which is a quality, high-end development. And to that point, I want to also emphasize that when we purchased the property to the south here which we currently own, there was a lot of time and effort put into the design of that property, even before it came before the planning department here where we did what we could. Everything that we could to be considerate of the neighbors, dropping the building down the hillside. We understand that Fountain Hills is a community built upon views. Everybody in town is really cognizant of views and wanting their homes to have good views and -- and it's an important aspect of owning it and living in Fountain Hills So that was one consideration that we put a lot of emphasis on, was what could do this the property to try and reduce that impact on the neighboring homes to the west, providing, you know, a development that reduces the impact and you know, maintains much of those views as possible for those neighbors. The additional things that we've done in the design of the project, again, we're here to look for solutions to problems the neighbors have come with. A lot dealing with traffic- related issues and issues with the views and things like that. We've put a lot of effort into the design, both initially and after we've heard comments from the neighborhood Outreach and at the last Planning Commission meeting, to addressing those concerns. And we're here to be part of the solution and offer up solutions to those concerns. To be a good neighbor and to be a benefit to the community. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 19 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 19 of 75 So I just wanted to share that with you. That's all I have for you today. GRAY: Thank you. Commissioners, is there any questions for the applicant before we open the public hearing? Commissioner Schlossberg. SCHLOSSBERG: Last time I asked you about the elevation and line of sight from some of the homes across Mountainside and you had some -- some data, and now, since you've lowered those buildings, I'm -- specifically what I'm looking for is the same data you had, which I don't see in my packet. And then, also, is there, like, an artist's rendering of what this project will like? I saw the picture you had, which I don't think is accurate. But an artist's rendering of what the project is going to look like from all points on Mountainside, like, from street level? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Schlossberg, great questions. So first, as far as your question towards the site-line exhibits. So that -- that's shown here. And these have been updated, particularly with respect to Building 3, now that they've been reoriented. So what this exhibit is showing is that from across Mountainside Drive, you can see that line of sight that's highlighted in yellow, over Building 3, what that would look like from the finished floor elevation. And it's sitting exactly 8 feet above the finished floor elevation. Previously at the hearing in January, that building was sitting 11 and a half feet above the finished floor elevation. So it's been a drop of 3 and a half feet. To the -- to -- at the bottom of the screen is another site-line exhibit that was prepared over Building No. 1. In that one, because of, again, the slope of the property, Building No. 1, from the finished floor elevation across Mountainside Drive there, is sitting just 1 foot above the finished floor. So that one you can see directly over the top of the development. As for the question about the renderings, what the project looks like from the street. We do have project renderings that I want to show here. This is probably the best example, although I will tell you, this is -- this is a character rendering what -- what it will look like. It's not actually showing you if you were standing right there on Mountainside, what it would look like. It's more of a bird-eye perspective. But this gives you a sense of the architecture and what the development would look like. But the site-lines exhibits do a better job of showing seeing over the building. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 20 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 20 of 75 SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. And that's the pool area in between the Buildings 1 and 2 is what I'm looking at here? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Schlossberg, yes. That's correct. SCHLOSSBERG: Okay. All right, thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: I think last time I asked the question about the survey. There's no red dots that would say I'm vehemently opposed. Where are they? [APPLAUSE] MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Watts, yes. So the intent of that neighbor outreach slide was to show the support that we've received for this project. We, of course, completely acknowledge that you will hear from individuals today that are concerned about a development on that property. But what we wanted to show is how much outreach that we did and that there are individuals here today that -- or individuals that are supportive of the project and in fact, some of 58 that have signed support letters that we've added to the case file. But to your point, Commissioner Watts, you're correct, we didn't survey exactly all those who are in opposed to the project. WATTS: But of those, if you did 300 surveys, and I'm just picking a number, and you've represented, say 150, how many were negative? MAROWITZ: The -- Chairman Gray, Commissioner Watts, I don't have the exact number for you of negatives, but I can tell you that I do believe when you add the neutral and verbal support and those who have actually written a support letter, that there is more support here. But the important point is, a lot of the concerns that you've heard from those in opposed are about any development on the property, or a multifamily development on this property. But this property can already be developed with a multifamily development that for -- that is far worse for a lot of the concerns or reasons that individuals are opposed to the project. WATTS: So looking at the rendering, though, I think you would have been more -- you would have been benefited if you had moved the -- the photo more to the right to see Four Peaks, which you don't show right here. So it is obstructing. What I'd like to know is along the lines of what Commissioner Schlossberg said, is if I shot a laser out of my TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 21 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 21 of 75 family room on one of the houses on my side of the hill, and I had a laser line on the top of the building, how much distance between the two? Or does the laser coming out of the window of the residence on -- on the highest point on Mountainside impact the building? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Watts, so great question. The site-line exhibits that we provided were -- are measured from the finished floors of those neighboring homes. So, of course, a window is going to sit up a little bit higher. And so we haven't done exact site-line exhibit measuring from the window, but I can tell you Building 1 sitting just 1 foot above the finished floor elevation means that that laser would go right over the top. Building 3, that's the other one on the north parcel, sitting 8 feet above the finished floor elevation, that one -- that one, if a window is looking at it, there would be some obstruction to the views. But again, the important part is, the choice that's in front of the commission is not this development or no development. The development for the property is already approved. It's -- instead, the question is, this zoning change with these proposed stipulations that result in this development versus what would happen if this zoning were remained in place. And if the zoning remained in place, a by-right development, we had shown the site plan of what it developed in the south parcel would look like. Those buildings are pushed -- after you push much closer Mountainside Drive and are going too far -- far taller. So if you're doing a site-line exhibit, you're getting far more of an obstruction to a view that you could build today without any control from the Commission or the City Council. And so it's certainly a great point and one that we've taken very seriously. And we've done the very best that we can to lower the buildings as much as we can. But of course, we can't make the building invisible, but we think we've done a very good job of doing the best we can to respect the views of these properties. WATTS: So with respect to the parking along Mountainside, as long as you keep that rolled curb up to the sidewalk, the people will park there. And I frankly don't care what you put there as far as signage or whatnot. What I -- my recommendation would be, if we move forward, is that we incorporate the removal of the rolled curb and put a square curb in there that's painted red and then, that's more of a restriction to be able to park along that street. It's -- it's much more clear. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 22 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 22 of 75 The other thing I'm really concerned about is the traffic for the ingress and egress. And the traffic, when you make a left-hand turn in particular, is impacted. And we just got done going through a line of sight on traffic and what we're able to see, what an impediment to vision -- to line of sight is. And that corner is a disaster. So couldn't we get your commitment to work with Town Council -- or gosh, not Town Council, town staff, to work and participate in correcting that so that it is compliant with the other line of sight issues that we just got done rectifying. As well as get your support on the curbing removal and replacement with a square curb that would be restrictive for parking? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Watts, to answer your question, so first, the no parking. And I know we had the opportunity to discuss this. The two stipulations that we proposed were to install parking signed and stripping. And then also to impose and enforce restrictions on future residents. We certainly did look into, and I think it's a good suggestion. I acknowledge the concern. When you have a rolled curb it allows for a vehicle to move up on the sideway -- sidewalk and park there. We are certainly willing to install -- to convert it to a vertical curb. The reason why we didn't propose that is that a vertical curb, of course, doesn't prevent parking. It just acts as a deterrent because now you don't park on the rolled curb. We viewed and speak with our traffic engineer as a stipulations to no parking and striping as actually restricting it. That said, we are happy to install the vertical curb if that is the decision of the Planning Commission, would like us to do that, and you have that commitment on the record that we would work with the town's traffic engineer on making that conversion. As to the intersection improvements, I know we also had the opportunity to discuss this one as well. There are two things. We spent a lot of time looking at this intersection. And of course, this intersection is an issue, but as part of our community outreach, we heard from a lot of neighbors that it's an issue that exists now. Currently, there's not a lot visibility at that intersection when you're making a left. And so a lot of people don't make the left. They refuse to do it. There are two potential things that we could do that we've discussed with town staff. The very first is, you could restrict that intersection to right-in, right-out only. And the way TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 23 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 23 of 75 that you do that is, you would provide a porkchop at the intersection. And you'd have to extend the median along -- within Palisades, so that way, someone couldn't make a left into it and you couldn't make the left out. We are happy to make that improvement. That said, when you offer a solution like that, there are some residents that would be happy to see it. And then there will be others who live in the area that would be very upset to no longer be able to make that left. And so we are happy, if that's the decision from the Planning Commission that they would like to see the developer restrict that access to right in, right out only and extend the median, then we'd be very happy to see that stipulation. But of course, we didn't want to make that unilateral decision ourselves. As -- the other thing that you could do is that, rather than restrict to right in, right out, is that the property to, let's see if I have a better aerial here that can show it. The property that's directly north of that north parcel that's zoned R1-10 is just open space. And that is owned by -- the Town of Fountain Hills owns most of that property. And for everyone's that driving at the north section knows is that your line of sight is really cut off at that intersection because there's some berms and then there's the signage there. One thing that we are certainly willing to do, and you have our commitment on the record, is to work with the town on receiving permission so that we can make improvements and essentially shave that down, so that way we improve the line of sight there. Again, we can't make that decision ourselves because that's not our property, it's the town's property. But as Ron had noted, our intent here is to be good neighbors and to look for ways that we can benefit the community. So that is another one that we are happy to commit to work with the town on the improvements to that intersection so that way we can improve the line of sight. WATTS: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Yeah. Just one comment. Hi, Mike. Thank you. As you can tell, rezoning to, you know, from residential to anything else is a very touchy subject here. And I now that you did some work in R-4 previously. But it seems like we're kind of balancing whether 70 go in R-4 or if it's spread out amongst the two. So are there some other options? Did you guys explore any alternatives where you're not packing 70 into R-4? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 24 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 24 of 75 MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Corey, so the thing that we explored was developing the property to the south that's R-4, because it's already zoned. And so that property if we were not -- if this rezoning case were not to move forward, the intent would be to develop that property with 70 multifamily units because that's what allowed there. And that would entail three buildings on that R-4 property with them being pushed up closer Mountainside Drive, again, much more obstructive views, significantly less open space. We did not explore developing that property to the north. This is our exploration of that development proposal. And it's really, the exploration is rather than 70 units on that south parcel, spreading them out and then just adding an additional 10 units. It is not the intent of this developer to build a single family home product on the R1-10. It would be just developing that property to the south with the 70 units. But as far as exploring, I completely agree to your point that really the decision in front of the Commission is the by-right developments that could be on that south parcel, north parcel, or this rezoning proposal. And I think the appropriate considerations to balance are, 70 units -- the by-right scenario is 70 units on the property to the south. And that results in kind of -- and allow those design issues that we discussed. And the property to the north, that's a single family zoning district, which results in single family homes there. And I know there's been a lot of discussion about the amount of homes that could go there. You are legally allowed to build 13. And you'd have to do an analysis of exactly how many that you could fit there. And you would need to make some improvements to the drainage area to get 13. Without doing any improvements, you could probably get six or seven. But the important point is, single family homes can be up to 30 feet in height. And so any single family development on that north parcel is going to require those homes be located much closer to Mountainside Drive. And so then you have all of the concerns that you hear about obstructing views become far worse with that single family development. So really when you're then comparing it to our development proposal, you're really just looking at 10 units in addition from what's to the south. And then, the way that we now, because we're going through the process, how we've designed and a way to listen to the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 25 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 25 of 75 concerns and do our very best to address those concerns and then also offer solutions to problems, whether it's no parking on Mountainside Drive, restricting that southern driveway, intersection improvements. And so I think those are the appropriate considerations. COREY: Okay. Thank you. WATTS: One more GRAY: One more. WATTS: Well, maybe. And this actually is for Farhad. So do we know for a fact, considering the building envelope, that they can get 70 units into that south piece of property? Considering setbacks, building heights, all of the regulations that they have to comply with, can they actually get 70 units on it? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Watts, we haven't done the calculation to determine if that -- WATTS: What's your best guess? TAVASSOLI: It would be quite dense if they were to and -- WATTS: That's tough. And it goes back to my question a while ago about the building envelope, you know, what can they put there which -- restricted on height, but the building envelope itself is a restriction as well. And if it's a percentage of whatever that square footage is, and we've got hill side, cut and fill issues as well, it could become inherently problematic for the developer to try to get the 70 units on. So I'm concerned. I'd like to have some information on that. GRAY: All right, Mr. Marowitz. MAROWITZ: Can I address that -- GRAY: Sure. Then I've got a couple quick questions for you after that. MAROWITZ: So the site plan that we put together, and I'm going to put it here for the property to the south, does meet the minimum development standards under the Town of Fountain Hills zoning ordinance. So this -- this is that development to the south with three buildings that has 70 units. And some of the consequences that you get when you have now three buildings rather than four buildings, three having 70 units, is that we currently have a mix of one bedrooms, two bedrooms, and three bedrooms. So we have some larger units with our development proposal to the north. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 26 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 26 of 75 A development to the south with three buildings with 70 units, that unit mix needs to come down. And the one bedrooms are going to need to be a much higher percentage. You'd eliminate the three bedrooms. So you'd have one and two bedrooms, which is how you'd fit the 70. But this site plan meets the minimum development standards under the Town of Fountain Hills and could be developed there. And this is the 30 feet in height, maximum, within the minimum building setbacks, and within the density allowances that are allowed there. GRAY: Mr. Marowitz, couple questions for you. And sorry if I glazed over this, but I was looking for some -- some context to ownership and metering strategy. How are these individual units going to be addressed? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, the -- this is a for-rent product. The demand that -- for this area right now is rentals, not ownership. And I know we heard, you know, some concerns, a lot of times we like to see ownership/rental units because that gives a little bit more skin in the game for future residents. But what I will say to that point is that this is a luxury product. It will be marketed as a luxury product. And it'll have finishes that are consistent with a luxury community. And so while you don't have pride of ownership, what you do have is pride of residents living in a luxury community that continues to be a luxury place to live. And so you have that pride in order to make sure that it is maintained that way. The developer is -- certainly, if the market changes, then it is very easy to do something like condominiumize the development and then that way could be sold for ownership later. But certainly, the initial intent now is for it to be a rental product. GRAY: Okay. So building that will be metering then? MAROWITZ: The building level meter-- and so it's, I believe in fact, I might -- Ron could address this, I believe it's all -- it's not individually metered for the units -- GRAY: That's what I'm looking for. MAROWITZ: Yeah. GRAY: And then -- MAROWITZ: And Chairman Gray, I just overheard Ron, so electric will be individually metered, things like water would not. GRAY: Okay. And then on the traffic impact study, is that at an opinion level or is there TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 27 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 27 of 75 a full-blown study at this time? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, that is a traffic analysis that is not a full-blown study but it is probably a little bit more detailed than what you'd customarily see as far as just a minimum statement. And it addresses things like speed counts on Mountainside Drive, traffic amounts address, so they're actual counts done on those streets. GRAY: Okay. And then, I'm sure we'll get into this a little bit later, too, but the discussion -- traffic for me, too, is preferably the number one concern by far here. The -- I think I want to put a big x through the porkchop idea. I think that just is going to send kids through the neighborhood to get to school rather than out to the main thoroughfare. But I am curious on discussions that have or haven't happened at this point with staff on, you know, potentially introducing a right/left turn lane on the center there on Mountainside, you know, from Palisades up to, what is that, Ponderosa -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Ponderosa. GRAY: -- Ponderosa, potentially, so that you can at least get out of the development or get into the center median so that you can turn into the development and still allow traffic to bypass. And then, I realize it's a 30-foot wide street, so there's probably some discussion there with the city property to the northwest. And then, also kind of complimentary to that, if there's been any conversation with the town engineer on an island -- introduction of an island in this, not necessarily development-driven, but you know, complimentary if we're going to -- if we're going to develop this corner. A turn-out island onto Palisades, you can still make that left onto Palisades, sit there safely, and then merge on to Palisades. Any of that come up in conversation at this point? MAROWITZ: To -- Chairman Gray, to address your questions, first, with respect to the turn lane on Mountainside Drive, we did have our traffic engineer look into this, because we thought a left-turn lane might make sense, if you could provide it. The problem they have is Mountainside Drive has an existing width now of 32 feet, which is not enough. And it's already got one lane in each direction. There's not enough width there currently to add another -- another lane for a turn lane or a dedicated left-turn lane. And the other problem that you have is, is well, the reason also, so in addition there's not enough width to do it. We did have our traffic engineer look at, is it really needed? How TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 28 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 28 of 75 much -- would there actually be stacking on Mountainside Drive when you're making the left in or when you're exiting if you have wait at the intersection. And I found that the -- given what's the existing volume of traffic on Mountainside Drive, and the anticipated traffic could be generated by this project, you'd only have a maximum of one or two cars making that left at any given time. And so there really isn't a need or a warrant for having that additional left turn lane there. But there's also just not the width on Mountainside Drive to do it. GRAY: So it would take some coordination and participation from the town to facilitate widening to get there. I think, obviously, you're not at a full-blown study at this point, but even a study aside, we've all sat there and observed that intersection and it's not good. And so I think introduction, or at least, you know, further consideration over and above what the numbers might show, is probably warranted in that location. So we'll probably get into that a little bit later here. And then one last one, I'd just like you to consider, if we get all the way to -- all the way to a motion tonight, in your stipulations, 1(a), a maximum of four residential buildings are permitted on the site consisting of 6.28 acres. I would just want to close a loophole there and add a max number of units per building as well so that you couldn't inadvertently, ten years from now, end up with one large building holding all 70 units, so. MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, great suggestion. We are happy to add that stipulation language to subsection (a). In fact, we have the site plan where we could do that now. And in fact, the way that could read is, no more than 24 units per building. Or you could say, because there are some, there's one of our buildings that has 24, the rest are averaging about 18. So if it said, no more than 24 per building, that would certainly keep us under that 80. GRAY: Okay. Thank you. And then for Farhad, just ahead of public hearing. Farhad, could you just enlighten us, how are stips in this manner, how are they handled, made available, thought about in the future? You know, typically when we have stips, we put them in a PAD (phonetic) type scenario and here we're tying it directly to a rezone. Could you just educate us on that a little bit? TAVASSOLI: Yeah, Mr. Chairman and members of the Commission. So the stips that you have before you were included with the thought that they may in fact be edited as TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 29 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 29 of 75 we're speaking about it up here to -- tailored in such a way to directly address some of the concerns that are mentioned. And then they will be, assuming that it will be approved with those conditions, they will be incorporated into the ordinance language that's going to be presented before the Town Council. Because after all, a rezone does require a written ordinance. And then, it will be tagged to the property for any, like, future site plan reviews or replants through our permit data base. GRAY: Okay. And then just one other question. Is town engineer, is he here this evening by chance? TAVASSOLI: The town engineer is present and -- GRAY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: -- available as well. GRAY: I -- just wondering, any commissioners want to hear from the town engineer at all before we go to public hearing? ALL: Yes. GRAY: Could we bring him up, please? TAVASSOLI: David. GRAY: Thanks for joining us. JANOVER: Oh, you're welcome. Good evening Chairman, members of the Commission. I have the -- reviewed the traffic impact statement. And I am agreement with the procedures that they used. And it was done properly. The thing that I've been talking with other staff about is that retaining wall on the opposite corner of Palisades and Mountainside. I would -- that's something that I would like to discuss with the developer and with the engineer about addressing that to increase the level of the line of sight to be able to perhaps increase that line of sight to make that left-turn on to Palisades. GRAY: And just your thoughts, albeit based on some pretty preliminary information at this point, but thoughts on closing the southwest drive and forcing all that traffic to the northwest and any potential platooning or backing up to, not -- it's not so much I don't think that we're concerned about platooning on Mountainside, it's that we're concerned about a couple cars backed up on Mountainside and somebody comes off of Palisades at, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 30 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 30 of 75 you know 30 mile an hour, is maybe not going to have the opportunity to stop without having, you know, some sort of ability to slip off and wait for the turn in. JANOVER: Yes. Chairman, members of the Commission, if -- I believe that the distance from Palisades to the location of the driveway is far enough where we wouldn't see that issue. And I -- they did actually review, or they changed their TI -- traffic impact statement, revised it to show the impact of closing that southern driveway. And so by doing that, they did look at the level of service of the driveway, and it's still at a level of service A, in both directions going in to and out of the driveway. So I think that -- I don't have a lot of heartburn with closing that southern -- that southern entrance, especially given the topography with headlights shining into the folks directly opposite those single family residences. GRAY: Okay. And then just one last one for me and I'll turn it over to the other commissioners. One of the stipulations proposed in here is to work with town staff on introduction of some traffic calming along Mountainside. Your thoughts there, or your level of engagement in that to date? JANOVER: Yes, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, I haven't been engaged with that. That's something that we would -- we have our own neighborhood traffic management process for -- to look into putting in speed humps or speed cushions to see if they're first warranted. We have to realize that when you put those in on any street, it's because there is speeding and you want to try to calm that traffic. But one of the things that we need to do is, anyone that is going to be affected by that, which is all of the -- pretty much all of the surrounding residents, would have to be onboard with that. We'd have to do a survey of all of them. And there would have to be a petition that would be signed by them. And if it's even warranted, you know, we need to do our own speed analysis there to see if it's warranted. So that's not something that we willy-nilly try to put down, okay, let's put some traffic cone, let's do some -- that's the worse things, because, like, people do hear that, you know, they will hear cars breaking and going over that and it -- and it's over and over and over again. So that's something we take very, very seriously. And it's not something that we just willy-nilly would do. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 31 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 31 of 75 I'm more looking at how we could address that wall for line of sight to see if that could be made any better. And if not, then certainly something else with that intersection to address those left-turn on -- GRAY: Okay. And this is just a matter of opinion but you're thoughts on speed tables at intersections versus speed humps throughout the thoroughfare? JANOVER: Yeah. Speed tables are interesting. They will -- they will certainly slow down folks that are approaching the intersection from all directions. So that's something that you want to -- not something that you really want to do on an arterial road like Palisades Boulevard. So that's something that we would -- probably wouldn't -- wouldn't entertain. GRAY: But on Mountainside, at the two intersection there. To calm that traffic -- JANOVER: Oh, you mean at -- that is a possibility, again, if it falls under our neighborhood traffic management process -- GRAY: Okay. So that would go through the same survey and -- JANOVER: Yes. GRAY: Okay. Very good. Commissioners -- Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Have you by chance had the pleasure, the opportunity to park on Mountainside? JANOVER: I have not. WATTS: You should take a -- you should go. [LAUGHTER] WATTS: So my question becomes, your thoughts on how do we prevent parking? You know, being 32-feet wide, number one. And I did exactly what I'm talking about, pull up on the sidewalk, rolled right up over the top of the rolled curb. Watched people blow through the stop sign. So we have two major issues. One is traffic calming. And the other one is parking. Because with that 32-foot width of the street, 16 feet each way, doesn't suggest parking is a good idea. Removing the rolled curb and putting in vertical curbing on both sides of the road, because you can't just do it on one, right? So what are your thoughts? JANOVER: Yeah. Mr. Chairman, and Commissioner, I agree with that. I think by removing the rolled curb and putting in vertical curb would be more of a detriment to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 32 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 32 of 75 parking on -- on Mountainside Drive. We wouldn't want to paint the curb red though. That's not something that we would -- we would want to do. But certainly changing to full-height vertical curb is a possibility. There may be some other traffic calming things in the toolbox to stop folks from parking along Mountainside. We could certainly look into some of those other possibilities, like, chicanes or things of that nature. We can look into things like that. WATTS: So if you -- if we move forward and the applicant agrees to some of those -- these stipulations to work with you, do you think you can come up with a reasonable solution that accommodates -- it's not a hundred percent full proof, but you think you can come up with some solutions that would restrict parking and calm traffic? JANOVER: Yes, Mr. Chairman and Commissioners. Yes. I'm -- I truly believe that we can come up with something between all of us that staff and the -- the developers engineer and myself, to come up with something that would improve the situation and deter parking along Mountainside. WATTS: Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Yeah. I want -- I wanted to ask Farhad one more question. Just want to get a clear understanding on this. So these stipulations, okay, are they, do they still apply if this motion does not move forward and he goes back to developing just the R-4? Let's say 2(a) and (b) -- is it 2(a) and (b), yeah. More on the mechanical systems. Could he just go ahead and decide to throw up 70 conventions on the roof if this motion does not apply to rezone? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Dapaah, if I understand your question correctly, the conditions here before you assumes approval of a rezone. Now, if the recommendation is to deny by the Planning and Zoning Commission, it will still go forward to the Town Council. And we -- we'll still reintroduce these stipulations as part of the ordinance. MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Dapaah, just to address that. To be very clear, these stipulations would be stipulations of approval of the rezoning. So they absolutely would not apply if the rezoning were not approved. They're to be approved alongside the rezoning. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 33 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 33 of 75 DAPAAH: That's what I wanted -- all right, thank you. GRAY: Commissioners, any other questions for the town engineer? All right. Let's go ahead and open the public comment portion of our hearing here this evening. Paula, speaker cards? WOODWARD: There are 13 speaker cards -- oh, and one more. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Sorry. WOODWARD: That's okay, Lori (phonetic). All right. So -- [LAUGHTER] WOODWARD: Hi, well, hello! Okay. Anybody else? Okay. I'll read them in order in three's. First, speaker is John Kavanagh, then Cheryl Norton, and Jeanie Mayeux. GRAY: So couple -- just a couple rules of the -- interim rules of the road tonight. If you don't mind, just to keep this moving along. Of course, you have three minutes up here on the speaker -- Mr. Kavanagh, I'm sure you know that. Three minutes on the -- on the timer here. You'll get a beep at 30 seconds remaining and then a continuous beep at zero. If you would, please, refrain from the applause between speakers here tonight so we can keep things moving along. And if, you know, if what you have to say has been said already, feel free to announce that. No need for, you know, for everyone to repeat the same thing if it's already been said. So Senator Kavanagh. SENATOR KAVANAGH: Thank you. State Senator John Kavanagh. I live a couple of blocks from the project. I am a red dot. I oppose the project. I opposed it at the last P and Z meeting. I oppose it even more now. I think the Commission rightfully saw that the public was concerned about the traffic situation. And also about the aesthetics. That's why they asked the applicant to come back and try to get the entrance and exit on to Palisades and to move the buildings back. The bottom result is, there's no entrance on Palisades proposed and they didn't really move the buildings back. Two of the buildings they pivoted. There's a big difference between moving something back and pivoting. So the results there were not especially concerning to me. And now, of course, we add that we're going to get speed bumps, which is everybody's favorite traffic device. So now, on a hill, cause, when they approach the speed bump, will abruptly slow down, go over the speed bump, and then accelerate, which will, of TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 34 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 34 of 75 course, cause uneven traffic speed, which is dangerous, which will cause engine noise for the people whose houses are there, and will cause additional exhaust as they rev up. Don't do us any favors, keep your speed bumps. Look, traffic safety is still a problem. Amazingly, the town has an environmental plan that when my wife was made -- she voted on, that we should make our towns street and bicycle friendly. And this is going to be a disaster for that road and elsewhere. It doesn't help at all. Now, look, there are two questions before you. The first question is, are we going to override local zoning? And the second question is, if so then let's talk about traffic studies and buildings and everything else. Those are the two big questions. Look, today I had the privilege of being the lead speaker against SB.1117 which stripped city governments of most zoning authority over residential properties and would have made boards like yours literally extinct because you'd have virtually no say. I did that because I respect zoning. When I bought my property and built my house, and I think everybody else here the same thing is true, right, we said what's around us? And we didn't want apartments on that lot. We didn't want to see them. I believe that you have to had a really good reason to change zoning in that way. So for me, I would say this, if you don't think helping a developer get some more units in, if you don't think that's -- that is a good reason, then the answer to the first question is no, and everything else is a waste of time. You just don't do it because it's wrong, because you're basically violating the trust that all these people put when they took the biggest investment of their house and bought their house and pay their mortgage. That's the violation. If you think there's a good reason to do that, then you move on to all the other questions that have consumed much of this evening. I don't think it's a good reason. I think you have to have a much better reason. And I don't think they can get 70 units on that lot. I've heard one of our prior planning people on the town knew that lot said he didn't -- you can't get 40 there in his opinion -- maybe you get 40 there in your opinion -- woops. And so the bottom line is, you're not going to get 70 crammed in. They couldn't move those two buildings on the south lot, they couldn't move them an inch because of restrictions. They're going to put a third building there? I heard from a current staff TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 35 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 35 of 75 member that there's major drainage problems there. So this is not about having 70 packed in there, right? This is about having maybe 40 on that lot if you don't -- if you keep this one the way it is. So one family we wanted, maybe 40 there. That's what the -- and I think that's what the people moved to accept because that's what the zoning was when we moved here. All right, thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Senator. [APPLAUSE] WOODWARD: Cheryl Norton. GRAY: Paula, let's go ahead and call an on deck. WOODWARD: Okay. So after Cheryl Norton we have Jeanie Mayeux , Joe DeLucia (phonetic), Doreen DeLucia or Delucia (phonetic), and Liz Gildersleeve. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. NORTON: Good evening Chairman and Commissioners. My name is Cheryl Norton -- GRAY: Cheryle, pull that -- pull that mic down a little closer to you, Cheryl. Thanks. NORTON: Is that better? Okay. My husband and I live at 16073 East Ponderosa. So we are right at ground zero. We're right across the street from the south parcel. And the renderings that you see tonight still block our view of the mountains. You don't see from their pictures very much of the mountains like we bought our house for and what we see today. We, as well as residents in our subdivision were grossly misled by this developer. This developer's consultant, Mike Miller (phonetic), visited the residents in our subdivision and gave the impression when they showed us the plan, they -- as proposed, that they owned the north parcel at Palisades and Mountainside, when in fact, it is still owned by Trinity Lutheran Church. The developers consultant, Mike Miller, showed us a plan as proposed, advised that the rezoning to our three on both parcels was not done. They would build at least three apartment buildings close together consisting of studios and very small one bedroom units on the south parcel. Was this meant to be an ultimatum? The original real estate listing states that only 30 units would be approved for development on the south parcel. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 36 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 36 of 75 In addition, the site plan of only building on the south parcel would also eliminate our view and the neighbors view. There would also be more traffic, no matter what, on Ponderosa -- on Mountainside and the surrounding streets. The water supply would be impacted, as well as water drainage by adding even more concrete and asphalt. Lights would be shining in the single family homes to the west. And also, how can we be sure that the view would be preserved on the proposed plan? If the builder hits rock, it can't be drilled as far down as they say they will. We, as well as the majority of home owners in lost hills oppose any building on these lots as proposed by the developer. Thank you for your time. GRAY: Thank you Cheryl. [APPLAUSE] GRAY: Folks, lets hold the applause, please. MAYEUX: Hi, my name is Jeanie Mayu. There's a reason why this lot has not been built on. It's impossible. The traffic is impossible. The drainage is impossible. The attorney that has presented his case today has said a few deceptive things. I have to be honest, I've been on his side. My husband, who has since passed, was a multi-family architect. And normally, they would introduce the architect, not the attorney. He has said that we have beautiful designs. We're presenting beautiful designs. It was black and white picture of some random apartment. It was not a rendering. And this is what we need in this -- today. They had two months to do that. He said, well, we're going to reduce the traffic. I live on Tumbleweed. All of that traffic is going to down my street. Another deceptive thing he said was, ah, yes, you can build these for rent apartments and then turn them into condos and tell them. No, that's not how that works. Builders don't build apartments to sell. You have -- they're different walls, they're different utilities, they're different -- everything is different. It's a lie, I'm sorry. And by the way, I'm a red dot, and there's a lot of red dots in that neighborhood, and it was deceptive for him to present that everyone's a blue and a green dot. So they're going to be shortcutting through my neighborhood. That's the main things for me. And people drive really fast down Mountainside in the first place. It's going to be a disaster. They said, oh, this is another deceptive thing he said. Well, we promise that the landlord will TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 37 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 37 of 75 enforce the no parking signs and just tell the renters to move. That's not going to happen. When has that ever happened in an apartment building? Why would the landlord be motivated to do that? So let's see, restricting -- the fire department probably would not approve the density for R-4 for 70 -- what was it, 70? 70 units? It's just too dense in this town. And it's too much of a fire danger. Now, I could be wrong about that. I don't know how -- how this -- how it works here in Fountain Hills. But I know in Los Angels it would not have been approved. I think that's it. Oh, yeah, I have a question. If this gets approved, why can't we just put egress onto Fountain Hills or Palisades? You know where the church is. You could, maybe, put the traffic going through there. I -- it's just -- I have a feeling you guys are going to approve this, so that's why -- my last thing I wanted to say. Thanks. GRAY: Thank you, Jean [APPLAUSE] WOODWARD: Joe DeLucia. DELUCIA: Mr. Chairman and Counsel, obviously, you know I live across the street from the project of the one that probably affects a lot with our other neighbors that live next to us. But just remember, there was 144 red dots last time, okay? These guys have brought you the green. They haven't brought you the red, okay? And I am strongly opposed to this project. And as far as their traffic study that they're saying they did, I live on there and the traffic study was done between Lost Hills and Sunflower, on the other end towards El Lago. Why wouldn't they do the traffic study between Ponderosa and Tumbleweed where most of the traffic is exiting, going out to Palisades? I don't understand that. And also, the traffic study that was done on Palisades when they had their little rope out there, that thing got run over, torn out, and it was not probably registering. Maybe it did for one day, I'm not too sure. So I don't understand how they're getting accurate studies. I was -- called Farhad and let him know about this. He told me to call the attorney myself. I don't understand why my, as a citizen, had to even call the attorney to let him know. I thought it would be their job to do that. I was their -- my city representative know. Okay? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 38 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 38 of 75 The other thing is, is I've -- that 60 percent that they're saying that's opened, that there is including all your washes and everything. That's not including just without the drainage. That's probably including the drainage. And that 3.6 acre parcel, for I understand, there's only 1 acre of developable land on that. So I don't know how they plan on getting 13 houses on there, if you even possibly could. Someone said 6, but if it's 1 acre, that's 40,000 feet, 10,000 per house. That's about four houses. They have to put roads in there and stuff. So it would be a lot less traffic there and just like Cheryl said, from what I understand to -- when that lot was being sold, there was only supposed to be 30 units, I heard. How could someone come in there and put 70 units? I think it's a pipe dream. And I think that these guys are deceiving us and we need to work for the people of the town, not for the developer, not for the attorney, not for the other builder. You guys work with us. For us. And I'm strongly opposed to the project. [APPLAUSE] GRAY: Thank you, Joe. DELUCIA: I'm Doreen DeLucia, his wife. You know, what they presented here today is not much of a change from what you guys asked for. And it is laughable that he says, the attorney says that this is going to reduce the traffic. We know the traffic is a problem. But it's not going to reduce the traffic. The other issue that I have is that they're presenting this as one lot. Part of it is R-4, the one that they purchased. The other part is R-10. R-10 is single family home. That's what we bought into. But that R-10 piece of property belongs to the church. That church property is one whole piece of property. It is not broken off yet. It is not a done deal. It's still deeded in the church's name. They still own it. It's 3.1 acres of their 5.63 acres that the church sits on that the address is Fountain Hills Boulevard. The rest of that property is not an address. It doesn't belong to them. They present it with their address, their piece of property that is -- that they purchased with two parcel numbers. They're not being honest, a hundred percent here. I understand it may be contingent to the zoning change. But the zoning can't be change by somebody who doesn't own it. That's not right. They're trying to grasp, to get as much as they can, so they can spread this out so that they can build bigger. This is not TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 39 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 39 of 75 good for our neighborhood. We are a single family home neighborhood. We are not Scottsdale. This is Fountain Hills. Scottsdale has flatland, places to build, tons of apartment buildings. This neighborhood was not meant for that. We need to keep it the zoning of R-3 -- R-10, the way we bought our neighborhood, bought our houses, and what we live here for. We moved up here, we made a choice because this is what we have here. Beautiful views. Our neighborhood, our small town, town. People who are personal with one another. We go out. We run into people that we meet. It's not meant to be congested and stack people in like a bunch of sardines. That's what I have to say. [APPLAUSE] GILDERSLEEVE: Good evening, Liz Gildersleeve. Like the C-0 Saguaro property mentioned in the Call to Public, the Mountainside rezoning issue tonight also pertains to a land ordinance. Pure and simple. And just a reminder that everyone in the Lost Hills neighborhood purchased their homes with the expectation that the property at the corner of Palisades and Mountainside was zoned single family. And that is still our expectation. We've only been in our home nine years, but most of my neighbors have lived in their homes for decades. Changing the zoning now to placate a developer and to the detriment of the neighborhood would be unconscionable. Not to mention that this zoning change would also increase the density and street issues for an area that already grapples with a busy, narrow, mountain side, which as it exists now, would be completely inadequate for more density. Again, I ask that you deny the developer's rezoning request. Keep the zoning as single family the way the town planned this neighborhood decades ago. And I would also just like to let the developer know when they put up their green dots, blue dots sign, the dot over my home was wrong. So I don't know who did your data collection, but don't use them again. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] WOODWARD: The next three speakers in order are Sharon Hutcheson, Faryl Palles, and Rick Sugg. HUTCHESON: Thank you. I'm Sharon Hutcheson, Tumbleweed Drive. Chairman and Commissioners, I'm here to, number one, since I wasn't called early, I'm here to agree TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 40 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 40 of 75 with pretty much everything everyone said so far. But I'll -- I'm also speaking in opposition to the proposed zoning change, particularly on the R-1. And I am doing that for several reasons. Number one -- and I have to correct something someone said earlier. I don't think those of us in opposition to this, and there are about 200 of us that we counted, we are not opposed to any development. We are opposed to additional multifamily development. We are not opposed to single family development. We all bought our houses assured by the town that they had designated that parcel R1-10 and un -- we didn't buy houses near the airport and then complain about noise from the airplanes. We bought houses in a single family neighborhood and we were assured by the town that that parcel, that R1-10 parcel would be single family homes. So I'm going to take a little bit different take here. I'm going to say when I was going through all this stuff, I remembered that we don't just live in a democracy, we live in a democratic republic. And as such, our appointed and elected officials have the ability to share their opinions. And they're also there to respect and represent ours, your constituents. We have over 200 people who are opposed to this. And I ask that you respect the wishes of your constituents and -- over the wishes of a developers. What -- I have one last things to say. And this is -- has been on my mind for a while and I don't really know the answer to it. But when we're talking about the lots, in particular the R1-10 lot that the church owns, that's one lot. But it is part of the Tocapilla (phonetic) subdivision. So in order to be able to sell that, you have to split that lot. You can't sell a lot that's part of another lot. And that R1-10 is all one parcel. So you can't split that, or you can't sell that without doing a lot split. I couldn't see that there was a lot split. But then I was informed by a former planner that that lot, as well as the R-4 lot is part of a subdivision that Tocapilla, whatever it is, subdivision. Yes, thank you. And as such, you can't subdivide a lot that's in a subdivision. So I don't' know exactly how they propose to do that or how you propose to sell that. But I do know one of the ordinances that within a subdivision, you can't subdivide another lot. So please listen to our wishes. We hope the developer has a good time. I'm sure he can build whatever he TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 41 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 41 of 75 wants to build. The land is very challenging. I don't think you'll get that number of units. But that's up to him. Thank you very much. [APPLAUSE] GRAY: Senator, the Vice Chair just said they do marriages for fifty bucks across the hall. [LAUGHTER] PALLES: Hi, I'm Faryl Palles, I'm a 20-year resident. This is very related to what I'm about to tell you, but I am at the intersection of Lost Hills and Ponderosa. Now, when the renters of these proposed apartments realize that there's no visibility at the intersection of Mountainside and Palisades, they'll take other streets to get to Palisades. I mean, we're so focused on this Mountainside/Pal -- no, they will find other ways to get to Palisades. They'll take -- they can zip up Ponderosa. Mountainside, Ponderosa, zip up Ponderosa, then take a right onto Lost Hills, just zip down that little hill there, you're at Palisades. Or they'll take Lost Hills, which is a straight shot from Mountainsides. So you just go straight up Lost Hills, no stop signs, nothing to worry about. You're at Palisades. So as I said, my house is at the intersection of Ponderosa and Lost Hills. Now, if we assume that there could be two drivers per apartment, then we're talking about 160 cars, reasonably. I mean, tell me if I've got this wrong. This means 160 more cars are driving up Ponderosa. They're driving up Lost Hills. Right by my house in which I have lived 20 years, bought it with my husband in '02. We moved here for the beauty. We moved here for the quiet. We moved here for the feeling of -- yeah, exactly. So too much traffic. Too much noise. The value of my home will decrease. It will not be the quiet house -- house we bought 20 years ago. And I will have to leave my little community. [APPLAUSE] SUGG: Good evening. I'm Rick Sugg. I'm at 16050 East Ponderosa and my wife Kim. And we are vehemently opposed to this. The developer came through to talk to the houses. We were misrepresented on the depiction as well. There's been a lot of misrepresentation by the attorney. I'm a little disappointed. A lot disappointment in staff. I spent 15 years in public service with land use, planning, zoning, and haven't done it for a long time, but supporting commissions like yourself and county commissions. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 42 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 42 of 75 Served on state boards. That's just to tell you I know a little bit about what's going on. [COUGHING] Excuse me. Been a long day. I've been at meetings all day, so. People are like electricity or water. They're going to flow the easiest path. And the easiest path is not going to be Mountainside. I mean, Mountainside and Palisade. It's going to be taking the side streets. And it's going to go right past our homes where we have people walking all the time. It's already a nightmare where it's at on Mountainside. That street should be least 60-foot wide. I don't understand the engineers discussion or I haven't read the analysis. If this moves forward, I am going to do some research in your regulation. It is not a matter of right to have 70 units. You still have to take care of the impacts of the community. And the staff should by regulation be able to put whatever necessary impacts are on the community on that developer and make sure that they take care of it. That is just -- I keep hearing this and these guys are trying to hold a shotgun to your heads and say take the lesser of two evils. No, that's not the way it works. Represent the people. Take care of the people. The views are going to be impacted ridiculously. That is why everybody bought here. And I just hope that you stick to your guns and help out the people in this community. And putting it on staff to take care of any kind of, you know, will you work with the developer to take care of this issue, I'm sorry, that's a bit of a push off or a cop out in my view. You don't put it on staff, you make the decision to make the recommendation. And you make sure they put that in front of you in black and white so you can see it. And if you can't see it, what are you making a decision on? I don't understand that. Sorry, I'm tired. It's been a long day. We are vehemently opposed to this. I'll talk to the attorney. I'll talk to any of these guys. And if this goes forward, I will be researching every regulation you have. I've written regulation. I understand it very well. We will figure this out. And we will fight it. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] WOODWARD: Next three speakers in order are Dave Boyer, Gretchen Boyer, and Clyde Hurtig. BOYER: Chairman Gray and Commission, I'm Dave Boyer and I live just across the street from the only exit they're proposing. And at 160 cars, I would say that's a decent TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 43 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 43 of 75 average. We'll be seeing nothing but traffic on the corner of Tumbleweed and where my house is located. Again, I'm not going to reiterate all the great things that people have said before me. But during the last meeting, I think there were two commissioners that really I thought highlighted some specific areas here. Number one, I think it was Commissioner Corey who stated the fact that the original zoning was pledged to our community in terms of residential. And that in fact, you are betraying the trust of those folks that spent a lot of money building these homes. The second comments I thought was very critical as well, again, was Commissioner Watts, when he insisted, and they totally avoided this, in terms of routing people on to Palisades. They didn't address that issue with you. Oh, well, it's a couple of culverts we were concerned about. That's not the issue. The issue is, that part of the community in terms of safety, views obviously, and of course now, with that traffic coming right at our house, it's going to be a real big difference in terms of what residential means to me. Thank you very much. [APPLAUSE] BOYER: Hi, I'm Gretchen Boyer and I basically have to address about five or six issues. The first one that you heard plenty things about, especially most eloquently from my husband, is the traffic issue. So I'm not even going to go any further than that with that. With the dark city that we are noted for, as David indicated, we will have the lights from approximately 160 vehicles. With rental units, there's probably going to be more going right into our beautiful back yard. And destroying what Fountain Hills stands for. The next area is our property value. We moved here three years ago. We invested, as you know, property value here is pretty high, and we invested to get what we consider to be our forever home. You will take us out when we're dead or near dead anyway. With this rental building of 70 units there, you think that's going to increase our property value? I don't think so. Okay. The other was mentioned about zoning. And I will repeat this because I think it's an important statement to know. That zoning is meant to be changed under extreme circumstances. Not a developer making money off of putting 70 units in. Not over threatening putting 70 units on a small strip of land where we all know they couldn't do it with hopefully the rules and regulations that we had to go through when we built on our TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 44 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 44 of 75 land. I'm sure this town has rules and regs that developers have to follow, too. With that, I -- you can tell I'm opposed to the development. I hope you think with and act with your heart. Think if you were living where we're living. Would you want that next door to you? Would you want to hear all of the traffic noises? That's for you to decide. And I hope you vote heartedly. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] HERTIG: I'm Clyde Hertig. I spoke last, last time also. So in the presentation, I just happened to notice a couple of things after I spoke last week, I -- the person who represents the company did come to my house and apologized for having our home misrepresented on the map with the pins. Now, we were told today there were 58 letters of support. And when I looked at the map while the discussion was going on, I counted approximately 15 of those supposedly came from the affected areas which were bounded by Palisades, Cavern, and Mountainside, and the main, the main road on the southside -- El Lago. Now, also it's was supposedly 70 units in the diagram that were going to be on the south property if that's all they developed. I counted that there were 75 units in that drawing. So I found that interesting. I also went to the information evening, which was first developed -- the developer had a couple of months ago. And I believe the traffic count said it was going to be 480 vehicles coming out of this property, which I thought was unbelievable. And I think today we're now saying 160, which -- I don't know, if the number of vehicles on Mountainside, if it's totally 480, so now we're talking about a third of the vehicles in addition to what was there, I guess. I don't -- I don't know what the count is. But that's my main concern. I walk every day in our neighborhood. I walk on Mountainside, sometimes in the evenings. I carry a flashlight. I shine the flashlight at people and people are just speeding there when they come off Palisades. Everyone has these tinted windows nowadays. They can't see out the side windows. We're a dark sky community. It's very hard walking down. And of course, you know people don't stop at the stop signs. And it's quite dangerous the way it is right now. We also have a number of school buses every day driving down Tumbleweed. Now, why is that? They drive by my house. They're empty. They're going over to the high school. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 45 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 45 of 75 And they're coming down Tumbleweed, turning left on to Mountainside, left on to Palisades, and then going into the school because the entranceway is on the north side of Palisades. So this is, I think, what is going to be happening with this other development. Oh, oh. Okay. GRAY: Couple more seconds. HURTIG: You know, the exit to Palisades, we were talking before that it needed culverts. I thought it would be too expensive also when were here last week. I believe Mr. Watts spoke about that. But I think it's reasonable that the expense be paid. And if they want to go ahead with this thing, that that's what they should do. Otherwise, I would say just build on the south property. And I believe Mr. Watts also said, and I agree, that the entrance and exit to that property needs to be at Ponderosa if they're going to be building that -- the other way. And if that's the case, it's right in the middle of where they're going to be putting their buildings. So I don't know what the answer is. And I'm not against development but it's -- I don't like what's happening here. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Hurtig. WOODWARD: Next three speakers -- [APPLAUSE] WOODWARD: -- next three speakers in order are Lori Troller, Ed Stizza, and Bret Hawkins. TROLLER: Good evening, Chairman, Commissioners. A little bit of a different slant and don't mistake this for I'm against this, too, but I've lived here 27 years and have a wonderful neighbors, wonderful views, great -- I love where I am. Two years ago, the house to my backyard burned down to the ground. They've rebuilt. If that house, what they just built, was there when I bought my house, I would have never have even thought about it. It lowered the value of my home just -- it's awful. Same situation. It in -- beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If they built a different home that I liked, I'd be loving it, right? It would be wonderful. So I -- I don't know. Dare I say this? You see these buildings in Scottsdale. They're big, huge apartment buildings, nothing big like that. But the glassware, the gardens are hanging over. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 46 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 46 of 75 That to me, if I were in these homes looking at that, a design like that, little easier versus just the same old stucco we're always seeing. And that's way out of character with what we see, these, you know, the glass that's so super-modern but where these -- they have the façade, the living facades which is, you know, they're talking about they're viewing gone but there, we're adding a living façade, it's a little easier. So that's my only -- maybe the design, you know, totally different. And then we can't require that but I'm just thinking out loud, so thank you. GRAY: Thank you. [APPLAUSE] GRAY: Ed Stizza? HAWKINS: I can go. Hi, I'm Bret Hawkins. Commissioner Gray, I'd like to ask if anybody has checked to see whether or not the map that they've shown with the pins is accurate? Anybody here on this board? I did bring this up last -- in January. And I'm hearing again that these things are not correct. And that some would look it as a lie. I look it as a lie. My neighbors around me, I'm very close to all of them. Five of them, I've talked to and you know, hey, you know, they're very open to me about, you know, we absolutely cannot have this. Just no way. And they're marked as either neutral or not marked at all. These would all be red dots. So what I'm asking, if you go to the next step, find out if they're telling you the truth. I won't do business with anybody who lies to me. These guys, I think might be lying to you. And all of us. It's disrespectful. That's all I have to say. [APPLAUSE] WOODWARD: Ed Stizza? STIZZA: Chairman, Commissioners, this is a traffic issue and a zoning problem, obviously. So we already know that. They -- all this stuff is all concerns. But one thing I want to say is that we have got to get everybody on board protecting this town. It is -- it's going down -- it's going down the tubes in a lot of aspects. And that's not good. I mean, we don't have any land left. I've said this before. This is also a density and aesthetic, and dark sky problem. There's not one of these renderings that these guys did with the lighting in it. Not one. Show the lighting. Show the lighting. I said this at the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 47 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 47 of 75 last meeting. But they're not going to show that. Because that's going to make all of this even worse. The renderings that you guys asked for, great idea. Did they provide them? No. So because it will show exactly what's going on to the general public that can't visualize those drawings. It's really cut and dry. So hopefully everybody makes right decision. And we've got to stop giving in to everybody. So including the staff. So got to protect the town. So thank you. [APPLAUSE] WOODWARD: Next three speakers in order are Ron Schwartu, I believe Frank -- is it Orlando? And Gail Evans. SCHWARTU: Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, I'm Ron Schwartu I live on East Lost Hills Drive. Just a couple of things to support what others have said here. If only the south part is developed, I can tell you where that traffic is going to go. It's going to be a race track right up East Lost Hills Drive or to Palisades. I don't drive an SUV all the time like most people do. Once in a while I do. But as it is, when you get down even going west on East Lost Hills Drive and want to turn south on Palisades, it is a visual problem there as well. I always feel I'm taking my life in my hand as people are coming from the stop sign to the east, they come at a pretty good clip and doesn't give me much time to -- and try to decide which lane they're in already. Whether I dare pull out and go south. There's a lot of people that walk on East Lost Hills Drive and unfortunately right now, we have quite a few cars that park on East Lost Hills Drive, too. So as traffic increases, I can only see that there's going to be an issue with some accidents. Plus some people have, myself included, have some pretty steep driveways. So when we come out of those things, we have to be very careful, so we're going cautiously slow. And if traffic comes over a hill pretty fast, concerned about that. I'm fairly new to the community. But one thing, one of the reasons I bought here was I liked the character of this community. You have some open space. It's not like Scottsdale or Mesa where every single inch is developed. And I think the beauty of this town is that it has some open greenspace, space for wildlife, visual space for us to enjoy. And I hope that somehow we can work to preserve that and that developers will see that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 48 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 48 of 75 that's an asset to us, not just the bottom dollar of how many units can we cram into a square foot. So you have a very difficult job as a commission and if I know, you'll do the right job. [APPLAUSE] ORLANDO: Frank Orlando. I've been an owner in La Strada for the last 20 years and also president of the HOA. I was curious about the green dots because the green dot that I saw for La Strada was at the pools. I don't know who he possibly had that was there? But more importantly, I was impressed with the lawyer. I think he did a great job of defending his client. But when I listen to lawyers, I think about what they don't say. And what I didn't hear him say anything, and maybe you guys already know this, that the owner of the property that you're considering to rezone is in support of this. I assume that's a church, correct? So -- and I haven't heard anybody form the church say that -- that's here say anything about the properties. I don't know how you can rezone a property without knowing what the owner of the property feels about the situation. The other thing is, I heard a bunch of things saying what might happen on the -- I guess the lower property where they say they can do 70. But until you have a real determination of what can be zoned there and what can be built there, I don't know how you can make an informed opinion about whether or not to approve this. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] EVANS: Gail Evans. This is a very first time for me, ever. But first off, I have an invitation for the entire counsel and anybody else that would like to -- I live directly on Palisades, directly across from the property being considered. Anybody that would like to come and sit in the front yard for a half a day would see what everybody else is talking about. Mostly traffic. But there are other concerns also. All the green dots that were on that map the other day, three of us were out over the weekend, and I was going house to house and asking various people along Palisades, then down Morningside about this. And everyone said, no. God, we can't stand more traffic. And they're older people. I have to back out on to Palisades. And it's becoming a nightmare because they will not let up. And from the stoplight all the way up to where I am, just past Wendover, they're already doing 60. And darn proud of it, too. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 49 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 49 of 75 And so it's becoming -- it's becoming more dangerous all the time. Another one, because we were out there asking people, and every single one of the ones that I went to, which were inclusive of 11 houses right around the corner said no. So how long ago did these developers or whoever it was that was out there saying, and they've got all these signatures, how long ago was that? Because if it's any of those people in those houses, they've changed their mind. Three people told me, yes, they had change -- they did sign, but they didn't realize what they were in for. And now that they're saying no. So that is irrelevant to me. But anyway, as far as where I come from, I've been watching. I've been here for 22 years, same house, watching the difference in the town. Watching how it's growing, whatever. This is one, it's going to be dangerous. It's too close to Fountain Hills Boulevard. The traffic already backs up past Mountainview. So it's -- it' s -- it seems to me it's a cut and dry situation. I know what the developers say and I know what the lawyers say. And one of them says, one of them came off the last meeting that we had outside, well, we'll, if they say no, we'll develop it anyway. So what does that mean? Not to concerning. And none of them's from this town. They're all from Phoenix or somewhere else. Come and spend a day. I'll invite anybody in the -- in my front yard. Just look. Because bikers go by. Kids walk by. People that come over Palisades going east. There's a hill right there, right just before that block. And you cannot see it until you drive over the top and Mountainview is right there. So I would respectfully, like I said, I would like anybody to come in. I'm done. And like I said, scared silly of being up here in the front, but I've seen it and I know. So I would like people that aren't from here to come on over. Just look. Thank you. [APPLAUSE] GRAY: Thank you. WOODWARD: Chair -- GRAY: John, we need a first time caller -- bell. Is there something we can ring? [LAUGHTER] WOODWARD: Chairman, we received a written submittal from Dennis and Renee Martyka that they are against agenda item number 5, the rezone. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Were there any other cards filed that were for or against, in TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 50 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 50 of 75 addition to speakers? WOODWARD: Just the one I read. GRAY: Just the one, okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We have two that we didn't hand in yet. GRAY: To speak or just to -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, just to hand in. GRAY: Okay. Yeah. If you could just get those to Paula and we'll get them into the record for you. Of course, you're welcome to speak. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Love to, but I think you've pretty much covered all the bases here. GRAY: All right. Last call for speaker cards. Okay. We will close the public comment portion of the hearing. Let's bring Farhad and the developer back up. Mr. Marowitz, I assume you have a few things you want to cover. And then we'll open it up to the Commissioners for some Q and A. MAROWITZ: Thank you, Chairman Gray, Commissioners. For your records, Mike Marowitz with Snell and Wilmer. The concerns that you've heard about traffic, blocking views, congestion, traffic circulation driving through -- through around people's homes, those all relate to a new multifamily development on this property. But a multifamily development is already approved for this property. Again, as I said in my presentation, the south parcel is zoned R-4, which allows by rights, 70 units, that can be built in accordance with the minimum development standards. And I want to point to some of the things in the site plan I think we've done really well. I mentioned in my presentation that one of the benefits about going through the zoning process is that we get to hear all the comments and feedback from the neighbors, which are very legitimate questions and comments and concerns that they have. But because we're going through the zoning process, we actually get to listen to them and work on ways that we can design the project to do its very best to address those concerns. Now, it would be disingenuous of me to say that we can one hundred percent mitigate every single concern that you've heard. But we can certainly mitigate the concerns far more than what a by-right development would be on this property. So I want to highlight some of the things that have been done. You can see on the site TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 51 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 51 of 75 plan that all the buildings have been angled significantly from Mountainside Drive. You heard a lot of concerns about views. A by-right development could push those buildings up to the minimum setback line, which is 30 feet from the property line and be exactly parallel to Mountainside Drive, so they would sit significantly above the finished floor elevation. We've gotten Building 1 to sit only one foot above the finished floor elevation. That doesn't happen in a by-right development but it's a nice feature of this development that addresses some of those concerns. You can also see the amount of open space that is provided. I have never been part of a development project that has 66 percent open space. Heard a lot of comments about how the character of Fountain Hills is open space. And I agree. It is important we maintain as much of open space incorporated into the development as we can. The by-right development of 70 units on the south parcel is 36 percent open space. We are increase of 30 percent from that. That is a big difference. Then there are other items I think that this does well. You heard comments about access on to the southern driveway on Mountainside Drive and then what that would do. Again, this is a way that this development can be a solution to some of these issues. And since the last hearing, we've proposed now to restrict that to emergency access only to resolve some of that concerns. So we've worked incredibly hard on doing the very best we can to design a project that addresses those concerns, which certainly does not happen with a by-right development. You heard issues about speeding on Mountainside Drive. Again, we're looking to ways that we can address that. And one of the stipulations would be speed bumps or speed humps to help address those issues. Again, the decision before this commission is not this development or no development. We acknowledge that there are some residents that you heard from in attendance here today that would prefer for these properties not to be developed. But that is not the alternative. The alternative is a development that doesn't get reviewed by the Commission or the City Council where these lists of stipulations that we've proposed don't apply and they just need to meet the minimum building setback standards. And so with that, with our development, we show you exactly what we are proposing. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 52 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 52 of 75 It's lower units than you could build legally by right on both parcels. It reduces the traffic. Significantly increases open space. And designs a building so that they're oriented and pushed down the slope to do its very best to respect the views of the neighboring properties. And so with that, we respectfully again your recommendation of approval, subject to the eight stipulations that we've proposed. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioners, questions of the applicant or town staff? Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: I have a question for Farhad. The single family zoning on the north parcel. What are the lot sizes associated with that zoning? FARHAD: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Kovacevic, the minimum lot size at an R1-10 zoning designation is 10,000 square feet. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Thank you. Farhad, question for you. So I -- my guess is the applicant would not propose this project if the lot was not subdividable that the church owns. Can you speak to that? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, so the -- I guess the more accurate terminology would -- rather than subdividing yet again would be a replat. Assuming this rezoning proposal is approved, even before the applicant submits a site plan for staff to review, they would need to submit a replat of the Tocapilla subdivision where they would simply reorient or realign some of the property boundaries. But it wouldn't require a subdivision review process per se. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. And I wanted to clarify a couple of items just so you know, factual information. So someone had mentioned that apartments don't get condominiumized. Four Peaks condominiums used to be an apartment building. That there were 200 properties there. So they're -- they start out as apartments, they were condominiumized about 14 years ago. So that does happen. And then, just to clarify the process, the -- when a developer, and you can please correct me if I'm wrong, when a developer is looking at possibly building a property, they may not have the deal closed on the property piece -- parcel of land that their purchasing. Because if the project does not TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 53 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 53 of 75 get approved, they might not for purchasing the land. So that, too, is not uncommon to not own all the land that they plan to put the project on. So I just wanted to clarify those couple of items if I may. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Farhad, I'm going back to the ability or inability to build 70 units on the south parcel. Was that an accurate representation of the three buildings that by quote/unquote "right" can be built on that property? And if it is, it does require downsizing the units from the more luxurious, three bedroom and -- or maybe changing the count. So was that a fair representation? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Watts, that was the first time that I have seen that iteration of -- for that particular parcel. I did not see it clearly enough other than the fact that there were three buildings, if I remember correctly, instead of four. Is it an accurate representation? I'd have to study it a little bit more closely, but it looked like, quite obviously, only three of the four -- three-quarters of the units that are being proposed may fit there. But -- WATTS: Yeah. And the south side being a little more challenging as far as the contour of the land, the topography, could be a real challenge to get that third building on the south side without a lot of cut and fill that would go on, I would assume. TAVASSOLI: I would imagine it would require quite a bit of engineering to design it. WATTS: And my final comment is, I -- while the presentation has been good, good sales, I think it was remiss in not bringing supporters. The supporters, we've got a lot of detractors that don't want to put the project in. And you've got some data that is in question. So I think it would have behooved you to bring supporters in to help sell the project some. Thank you. GRAY: So I find myself kind of torn on this one. I was torn a month ago. And I think there's been some nominal improvements here. I think the stipulations, there's some merit to the stipulations. So a list of things that I think are positives about this. The internal traffic patterns are virtually hidden from the neighborhood in Mountainside. The parcel A traffic is automatically pushed to the north, given the stipulation to close that south entrance. I think there's a lot of value in that. If the south parcel were to be developed independently, all that traffic dumps out on TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 54 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 54 of 75 Mountainside at Ponderosa or thereabouts and I think that's extremely problematic. So think there's benefit there. The open space, I agree. I think that that's, you know, I think that that's, by default, because of the topography, but you know open space is open space at the end. I would like to see the south parcel exhibit again, the one that's got the three buildings. I didn't write down the note, but I heard somebody say that they saw 75 units on there. I just want to make sure that that's a legitimate exhibit before we take this much farther. MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, here is the exhibit. And it does how the unit count in each building and it adds up to 70 units that would be allowed there. So to go through it, the first one at the top there has 28 units, 18 studios and 10 one bedroom units would make up the mix there. Then the building right by it has 22 units, that's 17 studios and 10 one bedroom units. And then the bottom one at the bottom there has 20 units, which is 10 studios and 10 one bedroom units. So again, you do have to reduce the size of the units in order to make that work. And as far as addressing the topography, the reason that's done is -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can you speak into the mic -- MAROWITZ: Oh, let' see. It looks like it's shut off on me a little bit. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, it did. MAROWITZ: There we go. Okay, a little bit better. So the units do add up to 70. You have to make the units smaller in order to make that work. But that is the alternative development proposal there. GRAY: Yeah. I can see the counts there. And just again, just for kind of level setting this in my head, creation of that exhibit is not new? That was a legacy -- part of the legacy proposal? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, yes, that's correct. So this was the initial development proposal of development of that property to the south. When the developer, Senderos realized that the north parcel could potentially be included and was on the market, that's when discussion with the church ensued and entered into contract with the church which are currently in escrow to purchase that property if this rezoning were to be approved. GRAY: Okay. Thank you. Coupe of other things I like about your proposal, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 55 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 55 of 75 Mountainside setbacks, I think, and as well as the building heights, I think are favorable. Nobody likes to see development but if there is going to be development, there's some real positives in that. And I think the sight lines off the single family residences, you know, they're far better than they actually could be. So there's some value there. Detractors, Palisades and Mountainside, obviously, we heard a lot about that again here tonight. Nobody brought up the pool being directly visible off Mountainside, and I suppose with landscape, that's going to be accounted for. But the Saturday pina colada party might bother me if I was adjacent to that. I wanted to see the civil plan, again, I wanted to see those driveway angles up to Mountainside, I know that those were at least indicatively table-topped there, but would have liked to have seen that. And the biggest one for me, I think I'm a supporter of this by and large, but the one thing that I can't get past is it seems between developer, town staff, including engineering, and I'm not an engineer, so this is kind of difficult to say, but I don't think we're giving the traffic -- the traffic patterns the credence that they deserve here. I -- [APPLAUSE] GRAY: -- hold on -- hold on. I, like Commissioner Watts, I sat there a couple different times for extended periods of time and it's not good. I don't know if anybody else has thoughts on that, but I don't think that -- I think that this scenario is unique in that the data is not going to drive the solution or appropriately address the condition is maybe a better way to say it. So while I say I'm a supporter of this, I'm a supporter of this with the condition that the traffic get down to the stoplight at the church property. That's where I -- I guess that's where I reside as we -- as we head into this looking for -- looking for a motion or any particular action. So again, Commissioners, any final thoughts and if not -- Commissioner Corey. COREY: Thank you, Chair. So you know, for discussion, I think we definitely heard some themes tonight from 18, I think it was 18 or 17 people that spoke. You know, there was a lot of people in opposition for this, which is reasonable, I think, because this is so close to residential area. I heard a lot of themes around traffic, of course, and views. But, like, we heard from somebody today, I don't want to go that far down the path if TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 56 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 56 of 75 we're just making the recommendation to approve or deny this request. So you know, I'll say what I said last time around, the zoning is a promise that we've made to the residence and like somebody shared tonight, this should only be changed under extreme circumstances. And I understand what the developer is trying to do. And spread this out, to lower them, and make it -- make it seem like it's going to be a better solution for us. But I just don't think that that's the case. And you know, when this many people show up to let us know that their feedback who live around the area, I think we need to listen to that more importantly. So I will not be voting to approve this tonight. [APPLAUSE] GRAY: Commissioner Schlossberg. SCHLOSSBERG: Yeah. Just a couple observations as well. I used to live on the corner of Lost Hills and Primrose for quite some time. And I'm very familiar with the -- this piece of land. I'm also familiar with -- and this is not -- excuse me, because I'm going to make a comment about Four Peaks Condos, but I spent a lot of time gathering balls for my son out of that wash down there at the foot of Lost Hills and I always thought to myself, I was, like, man that is really unattractive, those condos, the back of the condos over there, the view from the back of the condos at Four Peaks. And that's why I kept asking about the artist's rendering, what do the -- what this is going to look like? Is it going to block that? Because I really find it, I mean I'm looking at it right now. I find it kind of unattractive. And I always have. But please don't, you know, throw me under the bus for that. But I go back to what Chairman Gray said, Chairman Gray -- it is Chairman Gray -- GRAY: The bus is on Ponderosa, too. SCHLOSSBERG: -- that's right. But, so question regarding culvers or culverts, whatever, was there really some research done on getting in ingress/egress over to Palisades? And is it completely cost prohibitive where that's not -- it's just not feasible to do it for this project? Or what's -- what's the -- MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Vice Chair Schlossberg, the -- yes. A lot of time was spent into looking -- we knew that was one of the comments in addition to some of the other items of -- can we bring our main access point so that it's off of Palisades. And the answer to the question -- so the first thing that is, is no. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 57 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 57 of 75 And the reason is, the first thing that we looked at is, how can we span the wash to give access in the middle portion of Palisades? That is not possible to do because that is a right-turn deceleration lane into the church property. So we'd be conflicting with that. So we can't put it there. So the only place that you can put the shared access would be sharing it with the church property by spanning the entire length of that wash. That would require an incredibly large box culvert with significant impact to the wash, which is infeasible to do for a variety of reasons of reasons. The first is, it is extremely cost prohibitive to do. But the other part is, you heard a lot of comments about how much we need to preserve and protect that wash and the open space and the wild life that lives in there. The nice thing about this site plan is, it does not impact that wash at all. So not only would it be infeasible to do, to extend that large of a box culvert, but trying to do that would require significant work to that drainage corridor and cause disturbances to that wash. So really it isn't feasible. But I do want to remind the Commission that this is a -- where access comes from is -- will come from Palisades -- or from Mountainside Drive with any development on these properties. And so again, if the concern is access, I think we've done the very best that we can, excluding access on Palisades, which cannot be done, to address all the comments about the nuances of Mountainside Drive and traffic in this area and we spent a lot of time to do that. But those nuances don't get addressed at all with a by-right development. And so I want to remind the Commission of that. But we certainly spent lots of time working to see if it was feasible to access from Palisades and it just simply is not. GRAY: Are there any mapping sketch exhibits that could be shared that showed how that was -- how that tie-in with that traffic light may have been studied? I just -- is there any due diligence behind that, that we could actually take a look at? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, I am not aware of sketches that were put together. That one of the things that goes into it, it's kind of a drainage analysis. And we're happy if the Commission wanted, kind of a more formal analysis on the impacts to drainage and what you would have to do for that large box culvert there, our team would be happy to put together that work. That said, I will say that this, you know, we, of course, were here in January and we have TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 58 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 58 of 75 since that time, even before January spent a lot of times on the design of this development, made a lot of effort to build a creatively designed development. And then since January spent an additional two months working hard with city staff on what you see before you to address this. So it hasn't been for a lack of effort. We've put in a lot of work to get to this point where we are, and really do believe that we've addressed all the concerns and comments we've heard to the best that we can. But if there was more work or evidence that the Commission needed to see, we could put that together. What that would be in the form of is a drainage analysis and how much it would impact flows and the difficulty you would have to do that. GRAY: Farhad, your thoughts on tying in that -- at that intersection, or maybe town engineer as well? If he's -- yeah, he's still here. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioners, I think that would be better suited for the engineer to answer in regard to the tie-in. I can't make any additional points other than to the fact that there's a deceleration lane over there -- GRAY: And of course, it's -- TAVASSOLI: -- as far as drainage constraints -- GRAY: -- probably not fair to ask him without allowing some study of it, right? But just -- just a -- give it your best shot here. JANOVER: I'll give it my best shot. Yes. Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission. To come out on to Palisades, the best thing for us is to try to -- to try to really stay away from the wash if we can. Otherwise, we would need to -- we would to really take a look at that and size the cover properly. Because, obviously, you know, being in a hillside community that we are, stone water drainage is imperative that we keep that as free flowing as possible. So if -- the best, I mean, obviously, we know we need to look at the big picture here. And what is the best way to move forward. But just from a drainage -- complete from a drainage standpoint, the best thing there would be to try to stay away and not -- not even touch that wash and that drainage area. But being -- be it as it may, we -- and we also have that -- that situation when we do other decel lane on Palisades. If that wasn't there, that would be more, more palatable, perhaps. But we -- so we do have a number of issues there that -- that kind of push the primary access to Mountainside in my TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 59 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 59 of 75 opinion. MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, we do have our civil engineer here, if you'd like. What they looked into as far as the inability to extend that box culvert, if you would like to hear from him as well? GRAY: What about bringing the drive aisle over along and paralleling Palisades down to the traffic light? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, great question. And this why I'm going to call up the civil engineer to address more technically the issues. SMITH: Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my name is Craig Smith. I'm with KSC Design Group (phonetic) and we're the civil engineers on the project. We did look, not in great detail because once we took a look at the right turn lane and deceleration lane on Palisades, that precluded us from actually exiting the property out to Palisades. The other issue is that there's a large structure that's right at the northeast corner of the parcel where the church driveway enters off of Palisades. And that's a detention structure so that the water actually fills up in the area right at that corner and spills into that structure which goes underneath Palisades Boulevard and continues on. So getting to manage all of that drainage in that area and trying to cross it at the same time really creates more disturbance to that wash than I think anybody here in the town, you and the developer would like to see. Again, a lot of the character is in that wash. And the habitat that's there, as well as just providing that open space. So there are a lot of issues that keep us from trying to get out to Palisades at that location. And trying to get through the church parking lot, I guess that would have to be an issue that would be taken up with the church. But I can't see that as being a viable solution either. Again, you'd have to cross the wash to do that. GRAY: Thank you. Commissioner Watts. WATTS: This may be out in left field. What about taking 30 feet of the property and making Mountainside a four-lane highway and deeding that 30 feet to the city so that we can mitigate some of the problems by simply having a dedicated turn lane both directions or if you can manage the traffic the better? MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, Commissioner Watts, if I understand the question correctly, it's can we dedicate a portion of our frontage along Mountainside Drive to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 60 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 60 of 75 extend that area along Mountainside Drive from two lanes to four lanes? Is that -- WATTS: All the way out to Palisades, yes. MAROWITZ: -- all the way out to -- so I -- and I can tell you, the way that this has been designed, we -- we had, you know, we have the space in between our street and the building. Now, a lot of work would be needed. And, of course, you know, you'd have -- I don't, I'm not sure exactly what traffic issues you'd have with a portion that's four lanes and then moving down into two eventually on Mountainside and that might create other issues. So while it's, you know, I do think it's maybe possible that we could dedicate a portion of it and approve it, but you'd have that odd condition where you have four lanes and going back down to two, which could create other issues as well. That said, then the purpose, the intent of this developer and developing group is to find -- hear the concerns and find solutions. And this is not one that attract from engineered viewed as something that needed to be done. But that said, if that's something that the Planning Commission thought would be a benefit, we'd be happy to accommodate. WATTS: How about our engineer? JANOVER: So Mr. Chairman, members of the board -- members of the Commission, it is -- it may be possible to widen Mountainside as you approach Palisades. We just have to be careful as we, if we do encroach into that right turn lane at Palisades to see what the required -- the required length of that right turn -- dedicated right turn lane was. But it might be possible, certainly to widen -- you see that at quite a number of intersections anyway, widening to, you know, to add dedicated right turn lane or dedicated left turn lane. That is quite possible and it's something we could look at with the developer and the engineer. WATTS: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: So we're talking -- let's make sure my head's straight. We're talking about develop -- this is all theoretical here, right? We're talking about developer conceding the 15 feet or so at the north -- what is that, northwest corner of the parcel to allow for a right out on to Palisades? WATTS: That's not what I said. What I said was from the corner of the south parcel, give me 30 feet of land so that we can widen that to a four lane highway all the way out TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 61 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 61 of 75 to Palisades. GRAY: Why do you want to go that far? WATTS: Just to give people the opportunity. When -- if you came out from below, you're going to relieve some of the traffic. You're going to relieve traffic feeding into those -- you're going to take away the opportunity or the desire for people to move into the adjoining streets. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What happens to the sidewalks? What happens to the wash bins there? ME. WATTS: That's his issue. [LAUGHTER] GRAY: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: What about building on that again, hypothetically, the parcel that the town owns to the west that has the Lost Hills sign on that, is that enough space to at least widen the entrance to Mountainside? JANOVER: So Mr. Chairman and Commissioners, my thoughts were, you know, the town does have -- does own that property and we can certainly see what would work best there. We'd work with the developer. I am still a staunch advocate of looking at that wall. It's not a retaining wall so much as more of a decorative wall. It is, I think, part of the -- a major part of the issue of making that left turn there. Of course, there is the -- there is the crest vertical curve that is also -- nothing we -- nothing we could do can change that. But certainly, we can increase the line of sight and get much, much better line of sight if we do something with that. And if we do -- if we are able to expand, I guess that, kind of make it a dedicated right turn lane or in -- along their frontage at Palisades, we can move over some of those -- some of those cars, especially the -- maybe the left turning vehicle to, again, even more increase that line of sight. So I think there are some things that we can look at, at the intersection. MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, if I may. So that suggestion that was just mentioned was actually ironically also what we were discussing over there with our traffic engineer, is -- is I think what might be a good solution here. Is to take our north driveway and widen it all the way across the frontage. And we can make that a dedicated right turn lane on to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 62 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 62 of 75 Palisades. And I think that resolves a lot the concerns that were just suggested. And I think is a feasible solution. And so if the Commission would like to see that, we'd be happy to include a stipulation that requires the developer to make that improvement. GRAY: And then, and so I appreciate that, but complimentary to that, what I just chicken scratched up here was, and this is hypothetical, but with town participation, getting another 15 feet out of the west side of Mountainside. That would free up enough space center -- center street for a decel (sic) turn island, which would then allow for free flowing traffic, north free flowing traffic, south, you've got your turn lane that's right out on to Palisades, to me, that's -- that's a solution, a potential solution to what's hidden in the, you know, in the nuances of this particular location. MAROWITZ: Chairman Gray, thank you. Yes. So that, of course, is the town's property so we can't force the town to allow us to make those improvements, but of course, we have everyone, you know, in this room that would be needed to make that decision. And so we, again, would be happy to make the improvement to the town's property if they would allow us to do so. GRAY: Commissioner Watt's your thoughts? WATTS: Yeah. I, you know, I would kind of recant -- GRAY: Microphone. WATTS: I think, rethinking the south entrance, you wouldn't need to go all the way to the end of the property line. But I still am more of a proponent for slowing down traffic. Just by its nature, if you don't have -- if you don't have people jockeying for positions, if you got two lanes going both directions, so I would be still a proponent of taking 30 feet, making an additional two lanes, two north, two south, incorporating one of those lanes as it approaches Palisades to the left side -- [AUDIENCE TALK] GRAY: Come on guys -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Grasping. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You don't live there. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You don't know what the heck you're talking about, sir. WATTS: Okay. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 63 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 63 of 75 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: And that land is not for sale. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: You guys approach the church to buy it. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes, that land is not for sale. GRAY: Joe -- Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: This is just so wrong. GRAY: We understand the emotions behind this. A lot of us -- [AUDIENCE TALK] GRAY: -- a lot of us have been in similar situations in town. In fact, that' show half of us got up here, was these types of scenarios. So we do appreciate where you guys come from. We're trying to find a solution that suits -- [AUDIENCE TALK] GRAY: -- all interests. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Don't -- do it for the town, not for these people. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: We know we're zoned and what it is. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: It doesn't sound like there's a lot of room for negotiating to try to get a resolution to this. And frankly, I resent some of the comments. So whether or not you believe that I'm trying to work in your best interest or not -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: No, you're not. WATTS: -- to me is irrelevant. I don't really care. I am here to try and get the best solution for the town, for the people, for the people that have spoken against it. Something is going to go in. That's what you got to deal with. Something is going to go in in the R-4 -- [AUDIENCE TALK] WATTS: -- I am not looking for feedback. With that I'm done. GRAY: Thank you, Commissioner Watts. [AUDIENCE TALK] GRAY: Folks. Please. Commissioners, any other thoughts? Commissioner Dapaah? No. Commissioner Corey? COREY: No. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? Commissioner Kovacevic? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 64 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 64 of 75 KOVACEVIC: No GRAY: Commissioner Schlossberg? Okay. All right. No more comments, Paula? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. GRAY: Commissioners, a motion? COMMISSIONER COREY: I would make a motion to deny the rezone for the 3.1 acres of the 6.8 acre property from the R1-10 single family residential to R-3 multifamily residential. GRAY: Commissioners, is there a second to Commissioner Corey's motion? Going once, twice, motion fails. Commissioners, an alternate motion? Okay. I will go ahead and put a motion here on the table open to any amendments that the Commission might have. I am going to recommend a motion -- I'm going to recommend a motion be carried to the Town Council to approve the rezone with all of the stated stipulations and added stipulation to modify stip 1(a) to include a statement of less than 24 units per building. And with a very, very strong caveat that the parking solution between Mountainside and Palisade -- not he parking, the traffic solution between Mountainside and Palisades, in a collaborative effort between the town and the developer be ironclad. I really, really want the traffic down at that stoplight. And if it's not going to get down at that stoplight, the solution at Mountainside has to be perfect. And without that perfect solution, I would hope that the Town Council would not take our recommendation forward. So Commissioners, any amendments to that motion? KOVACEVIC: Is it less than or equal to 24 units? GRAY: Yeah. That's the -- that's the upper limit of the existing building. KOVACEVIC: Okay. GRAY: Commissioners, a second. KOVACEVIC: I'll second. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic seconds the motion. Last call for amendments. Call a row call vote, please. WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey. COREY: No. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 65 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 65 of 75 WOODWARD: Commissioner Dapaah. DAPAAH: Yah. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: Aye. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: No. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg. SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. WOODWARD: Chairman Gray. GRAY: Aye. WOODWARD: 5 - 2. GRAY: Thank you, Paula. Okay. Commissioners, five-minutes recess, we want to move on with the agenda. Take a five-minute recess, thank you. (Recess) GRAY: All right. So we're going to jumble up our agenda here. So John, let's go ahead and move to 9(a) to provide comments on the architectural design for 15006 North Ivory. WESLEY: Okay. Chairman, Commissioners, try not to take too much time here. Go through a quick presentation. Then let Gurzak come up and visit with you about some of his thoughts and his needs with regard to this project. But just a quick background. Back May and June of last year you reviewed and then ultimately recommended approval of a special use permit for building of an office, multifamily project at Ivory and El Pueblo. There was discussion during the meeting about the architecture and it's need to be reviewed closely through the site plan review. Now, that did then go to council and was approved ultimately in September of 2022. Again, discussions included some concern with the proposed architecture. As I can see the building relate to the context, but there were no stipulations specifically placed on the approvals by either the P and Z or Council. And Chapter 19 of the Zoning Ordinance, Section 19.04 at (h) talks about infill and has the guideline that we look for compatible TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 66 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 66 of 75 infill. Without duplicating outdated architectural styles. And so we've been working at this, talking with the applicant through the site plan review process. We're just about to the final stages of approving the site plan. Needs to get his building permit submitted soon. And so normally by the -- by the procedures we would have actually denied the request and there'd be an appeal. Well, if we would have gone through that process, he wouldn't have been able to get to you until your next meeting and he's anxious to move forward. So I didn't want to do that. So this is a little bit, kind of out of the normal sequence to go ahead and get some input here so that we can then move forward with, hopefully finalizing the site plan. So here are the elevations of the proposed buildings, again, they're not too different from what you saw previously. He's been consistent with that. Now here are some of the buildings in the area. To the west, across the parking lot. And then to the southwest, the old charter school, home side, immediately across Ivory from his corner lot. Here are some other buildings in town close by here on El Lago and Gunsight. And the one that we're viewing for Danna Coughlin (phonetic) down on Saguaro. That more modern look similar to what Mr. Garzak is proposing on his site. Similar colors to what he's proposing there. And then here's a home I believe he's built here in town using those colors and those materials to show how they can look in an actual construction. Very nice looking building. And so I would not really look for any formal action by the Commission but an opportunity for myself in particular and Mr. Garzak to get your thoughts on the proposal and whether or not you feel the -- the design is addressing the code requirement to be something that's compatible with the neighborhood. Staff feels that -- that it's not meeting that goal, otherwise we wouldn't be here. It's partially the colors. Partially the shape of materials that are being proposed. I'm not an architect to say what's designed differently necessarily. But again, when we look at, you know, what is adjacent to us, to it in this context, staff's not finding that being compatible. So with that, I'll turn it back to you, Mr. Chair. GRAY: Thank you, John. Mr. Gurzak do you have any -- any inclination to -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 67 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 67 of 75 GURZAK: Yes. I, you know, covered everything pretty well. GRAY: Okay. GURZAK: So you know, I did kind of, you know, tone down the color palette, make it more neutral, compatible and that kind of stuff. And you know, I feel it's pretty -- it's going to, you know, blend pretty well, actually, in that area. You know, it's -- the main color, it's pigeon gray. I mean, we've used it in, you know, four different HOAs have approved it in that, so. It's, you know, something that's been built -- been built in town, you know, pretty frequently by myself in the last couple years, so. GRAY: There -- is there, within the development there. I remember that parcel is in some sort of master HOA, some sort of master development -- GURZAK: Yeah, there's a, like, a commercial owner's association. GRAY: Have they commented on that elevations at this points? GURZAK: I haven't formally submitted to them. But I mean, you know, there is, the previous elevation with the other colors, there was, I mean, didn't seem like we were having any issues with the actual architectural style. You know, previous the color palette with the previous, you know, white and blue tones. GRAY: The more flatline architecture lends itself to the lighter, the lighter color scheme. GURZAK: Yeah. And you know, I mean, these pop outs on there, you know, because it's kind of, you know, bigger kind of wall planes. You know, to kind of break -- break it apart a little bit, too. And you know, having a different color also, you know, helps break those wall planes down. GRAY: Commissioner Corey. COREY: Yeah. So you know, I think it's a kind of a controversial topic, too. Whether we keep what the existing styles are or are kind of modernize the town a little bit. And I don't know where everybody kind of stand son that. But I'm definitely on the side where we start to make things look a little bit more modern. And I actually really like this design. I think the best way to enhance this would be to include more landscaping. But I like the simplicity, I like the style -- GURZAK: Yeah -- [CROSS TALK] COREY: -- I see some trees and grass. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 68 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 68 of 75 GURZAK: -- the landscaping that's going to be on there. Those are just kind of -- just placements right now. COREY: So you have a unique, you know, a unique, you know a unique design here because you've got commercial on the first floor and residential on the top. So you want to try to make it blend with the both. And I'd say the more you can make it residential than commercial, probably the better. I see that you've got a variety of things in here. It's not just flat walls and windows. I'm seeing a lot going on, which is great. And then, I would just stay away from the colors, like, that aren't neutral or natural. GURZAK: Yeah, kind of like the, like the other -- COREY: -- reds or greens that we've seen in the past or that we see today -- GURZAK: Yeah. COREY: -- but I think that it looks good. And you know, you showed a few designs of buildings around the area. And they could probably use a makeover. So I tend to like the style and I think it looks good. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster. DEMPSTER: Thank you. I agree with Commissioner Corey. I do like the design. And I don't think we should go backwards and match when something hasn't been updated in over 20 years. It's very heavy and -- and I do think this would blend well and freshen up that area. That is a little tired looking over there. And it does need a little bit of face lift. So I think this is wonderful. Thank you for your work. GRAY: Commissioner Watts. WATTS: I'm almost afraid to make a comment. [LAUGHTER] GRAY: Tough crowd today. WATTS: Ah, heck with it. I, too, like it. I agree with Commissioner Dempster that, you know, the surrounding area is kind of old and staunchy. But I am curious, and this is probably for Farhad or John, but isn't there a color palette or some reflextivity measurement that has to be adhered to in building codes so that these have to be compliant with what is already existing? And that's why I'd be curious if it -- if they do, why was it rejected by the building department? GURZAK:: Yeah, actually the LRV on this it means 45. And this actually the brightest TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 69 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 69 of 75 color that they allowed in Firerock. WATTS: Well, not to be argumentative, but that's Firerock and we're Fountain Hills, so. GURZAK: Yeah, yeah. But I usually, given those colors -- you know, colors this bright and then, the last few years, that's change. WATTS: So John, what's the official words? What's the values that we look at an dis it compliant with that? Is that why it was declined? WESLEY: So I don't know anything about in the building code -- the Zoning Ordinance, Section 19.06, which is color materials, it just has some very general guidance on this. Choose colors that may do well with one another and surroundings -- down here it says avoid highly reflective materials including colors -- later, discourages dark colors. So we don't really have specific as I think you were talking about. WATTS: Is that regulated mainly by the property owner's association or the HOAs? WESLEY: It's in the zoning ordinance. WATTS: It is in the -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- zoning? Because I know the neighborhood property owner's association has specific values and they won't let certain things -- WESLEY: Yeah. I don't think so. That's pretty -- doesn't have the same thing. That's pretty general here, as far as I know. WATTS: What was the grounds then, it was declined by staff? WESLEY: Well, it hasn't been declined, but when we were here at the -- for the special use permit hearing, we had similar elevations. There were some concern from the neighbors. I heard concern from the Commissioners. And I was having some concern personally with considering this to be compatible infill because it is so dramatically different than what's there. And so when it hadn't changed any based on those previous concerns, I wanted to come back and get some feedback from this group. If you're fine with it, then that's fine. We'll go ahead and finish our review. GRAY: Thank you. I generally concur with the other Commissioners. I tend to like it. I did not like the Park Place elevations that Commissioner Corey was alluding to, but I tend to like -- think it's risky, to go into that -- that enclave there and be the new anchor. But if you're going to go bold, then go bold and let's hope the rest comes along with you TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 70 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 70 of 75 over the next decade, so. GURZAK: Yeah, and I mean, I do have plans to, you know, try to get some of those other parcels in there and kind of, you know, kind of redevelop, you know, different buildings on there and that, so I mean, if and when that would be, you know, done or proposed, then, you know, kind of make it, you know, anything new built in there would kind of be the same -- same color scheme so it will all looks uniform. GRAY: Yeah. And I -- I also appreciate Commissioner's Corey statement on the landscape. I realize these are just naked elevations here, but -- GURZAK: Yeah. GRAY: -- that architecture -- GURZAK: Yeah. I think there's not too many -- not too much room for landscape, just because it's, you know, we're pretty close -- and that, but -- GRAY: -- just a couple strategically placed strategically placed, you know, larger boxes would really set that building off. So I appreciate it. I like it. Commissioners, any other -- Commissioner Kovacevic. KOVACEVIC: I'm the last person you want commenting on colors. GRAY: Want me to get the wheel out for you? Okay. WESLEY: Do I need a motion necessarily, or -- GRAY: Just general direction and feed back WESLEY: I have general direction. I've heard -- GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: -- the (indiscernible), but that's good. GRAY: Anything else, Commissioners? Oh, yeah, sorry. We do have public hearing. Paula, speaker cards? WOODWARD: Ed Stizza. GRAY: Thanks. STIZZA: Good evening again. So I've got a couple comments here. This is the perfect time to bring this up. I've talk to John about this before. Our painting ordinance, you did not talk about desert colors. Okay. I'm not even sure I want to debate on the architecture of this. Okay, it does not blend. So -- but that being said, you can also blend with colors. Okay? So if everybody likes the actual architecture of this and you feel it's going to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 71 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 71 of 75 change the direction of that area, I get it. But the colors are a problem. Okay? When you have black accents, it's happening all over town. John brought a beautiful example up. The apartments, which I think Mr. Garzak was part of, I think, down at the, which -- you know which -- what's the name of that development? Gunsight. So -- so black -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Those weren't mine. Those were somebody else's. STIZZA: Oh, were they, okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. Mr. STIZZA: Yeah, yeah. Sorry, I didn't mean to misspeak. But anyway it's the same type of thing. Those are black. They're black. Okay? So when we look at black in the desert, it is not conducive. It doesn't hold up. They fade. Look at the Luna Apartments. Look at every single painting project in town that is black. Okay? So now, this has black trim. But eventually the -- this is black, correct? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: The accents, yes. STIZZA: Yes. So -- so these black accents are very contrasty. That does not blend with the town, nor does it blend with the ordinance. Am I correct? It did say desert colors, correct? Okay. So at this point in time, I really think this is a valid argument. We've been talking about aesthetic. We've been talking about architecture here. This thing -- looks like something that should be based on those colors down by the beach at Huntington. So I don't think we're in the right line with the color patterns. WESLEY: So the ordinance says, discourage exterior finishes if it's dark colors, except where appropriately utilized on trim. STIZZA: How do you fight it? I mean, [LAUGHTER] STIZZA: It's -- everything is so vague. I think those apartments down there look horrible. And this is one of the things I do for a living. And I can tell you right now, the black that is on those Gunsight Apartments is going to deteriorate faster than any other color. I don't care how well they painted it. So we're going down this path that we're going to have all black, white, and -- or I should say gray, black, with white stripes as we do where storage unit now behind Desert Vista. I ask you all to take a look at that building. That's horrifying. GRAY: Thanks Ed. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 72 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 72 of 75 Mr. Corey? COREY: Yeah. So I think the point that he brings up is that the black is a hard to maintain because it will get faded by the sun. And someone who's speaking, I am an NPOA personally and I think I chose the darkest color they would allow me to paint my house, so I get that the dark colors are helpless sometimes. But would you -- I imagine you would have a plan to make sure that the colors stay consistent and maintain them regularly? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Oh, yeah. They're maintained well, so the color lasts, you know, quite a while. COREY: You said it's integral? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's a synthetic stucco. GRAY: Synthetic stucco. COREY: Synthetic -- what is synthetic stucco? Oh, it's built into the -- okay. Thank you. GRAY: You need to go home. Okay. Commissioners, final comments? Good. DAPAAH: Well, I think there's also a preventative maintenance, right? When you're talking about -- GRAY: You could say that. DAPAAH: -- I think we discussed that before, prior, about just keeping things up. So what, in the desert every few years I just painted my home, repainted my home. I mean, it can be maintained and kept fresh looking. GRAY: Well there you have it. That's the end of that. All right. Enough confusing feedback, John? WESLEY: Yup. GRAY: Thank you. All right. Let's close the public hearing. And let's move up to agenda items -- well, I'm fine, let's go to agenda items 4. Consideration and possible action to approve the regular meeting minutes of Planning and Zoning Commission from February 13 -- WATTS: Don't we have to give some direction to the staff about whether we approve it or not or -- GRAY: It's too late now. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 73 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 73 of 75 WATTS: -- it's done? GRAY: It's over. WATTS: Oh, the minutes are the same? We did it? GRAY: Yup. WATTS: I didn't hear myself say that, so I'm curious. GRAY: Happy birthday guys. Sorry. WATTS: Oh, okay. GRAY: Too late. COREY: So this is for the minutes? GRAY: Yes, this is for the minutes. COREY: Okay. I'll make a motion to approve the minutes -- GRAY: Thank you. COREY: -- from our February meeting. DEMPSTER: I second that. GRAY: In favor. ALL: Aye. GRAY: Okay. Sorry, John. I said we were going two and half hours and I'm just nine minutes short of three. So we'll move to agenda item 6. Public hearing, consideration and possible action to amend the zoning ordinance Chapter 6, Signs, regulations. John, on this one, I'd like to do a short presentation, public comment, and then probably going to look for a motion because all my notes are here and it said I've had enough. So presentation. WESLEY: So, yes, Chair, with that direction, I will probably just hit the first couple of slides to set the background and then leave the rest for a future presentation. But as we know, the Town Council has had some questions, concern, comments about our current sign codes. Some areas they think don't work well that cause some problems for our businesses. And so they've asked the staff and planning commission to take a look at some possible amendments. They have at their recent retreat provided staff some additional comments that they have in areas where they believe some improvements could be made. Staff then has been going through the code. We've identified a few things, given our experience TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 74 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 74 of 75 implementing the code over the last couple of years, we think that a couple of tweaks would be beneficial that we also want to bring up. And this has been advertised tonight and future meetings as we continue this as public hearings. So you and the public have opportunity also where you might see any need for improvements beyond what the Commission -- or the Council has suggested to direct staff in making modifications to an actual ordinance to bring to the Commission for recommendation and then on to the Town Council So that's kind of what we are about. And so form here I start getting into specifics of the ordinance. So I think I'll just stop there for this evening. See what public comments you may have and what direction you want to give after that. GRAY: Very good. Paula, do we have any speaker cards? WOODWARD: Yes, Chairman. One, Gene Selecta (phonetic). GRAY: Sorry Gene. SELECTA: Chairman, Commissioners, first of all I want to thank this commission. I was so impressed with all of you for your dedication, your volunteerism, and your thoughtfulness. I was very impressed. And, of course, always the town staff. As a former town planner and P and Z Commissioner, I really appreciate what I've seen tonight and other nights on the TV screen. But anyways, now, on the sign ordinance, old and current changes, there's much not that I like. But my concerns have -- really are three-fold. One, the town's single greatest asset, and what brought me here 20 years -- 27 years ago is it's unequal beauty and being so close to an enlarged metropolitan area as -- in the country, it's astounding. Misdirected attempt to serve a tiny part of our business community can only serve to damage that beauty. Second item is safety. Temporary signs, A-frame and T-frame, et cetera, should only be used in walkable areas where a person can actually read them. Going down Shea at 50 miles an hour can only create dangerous driving conditions, which I'm sure you already talked about, when someone's trying to read a six-square foot sing. Even Saguaro Boulevard creates risk at 40 miles an hour. As to driving risk, a sing blown in to Shae Boulevard or Saguaro at nighttime or even daytime. Also, be careful with the ADA stuff and senior concerns in general. When you allow TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 75 of 75 MARCH 13, 2023 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION REGULAR MEETING Page 75 of 75 temporary signs too close to the curb, especially in the downtown diagonal parking area, you risk handicap people having difficulty getting on to the curb when they try to step up. Also consider the car bumpers that typically extend over the curb on to the sidewalk. Thirdly, property values. Certainly a community flooded with low-cost temporary signs on every arterial is a negative impact on property values. We need to be vigilant about that. What could be the impact on our property values. Is it $10,000? $50,000? Maybe $100,000. It's hard to say. One council member claimed last year that the temporary sign had a 40 percent impact on business. Well, I say that's nonsense. A dozen years go or more the town changed the ordinance to require businesses to take in those signs at the end of the day. I found a huge number stopped putting out their signs all together, period. Doesn't sound like a 40 percent impact to me. So I only ask that as you deliberate, you serve the 24,000 residents as well as business. Just read the very first sentence of the sign ordinance, which in part says, "To promote the general welfare by creating a more aesthetically appealing community." Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Gene. WESLEY: So unless you have anything else that you'd like to hear from me this evening, I would suggest that if you could move to continue this to your April meeting as well as then, the other two items on your agenda. That way, we don't have to renotice them. GRAY: Yeah. That sounds palatable to me. So I'll go ahead and make the motion to table the balance of the -- of tonight's agenda. So that would be items 7, 8, 10, and 11 to our April meeting. Commissioners, is there a second? DEMPSTER: I'll second. Oh, sorry. Comment. GRAY: Okay. I'll throw 9 in as well, although that will be reagendized anyway. DEMPSTER: I'll second the motion. GRAY: In favor? ALL: Aye. GRAY: Thank you. We are adjourned. Thank you. [MEETING ADJOURNED]