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HomeMy WebLinkAbout221010 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 1 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 1 of 27 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills October 10, 2022 Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 2 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 2 of 27 KOVACEVIC: Okay, Paula, can we take role? WOODWARD: Commissioner Corey? Can you guys hear me? Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Here. WOODWARD: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Here. WOODWARD: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? Chairman Gray? GRAY: Present. KOVACEVIC: Do we have any speaker cards for call to the public? WOODWARD: No, Chairman. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Agenda item number 4, consideration and possible action approving the regular meeting minutes of the September 12th planning and zoning commission meeting. Do I have a motion to approve? DEMPSTER: Yes, I'd like to move to -- GRAY: Hello? DEMPSTER: -- approve the regular meeting minutes of the planning and zoning commission September 12th, 2022. KOVACEVIC: Do I have a second? DAPAAH: I will second that. KOVACEVIC: Okay. All in favor? ALL: Aye. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Number 5, holding a public hearing, consideration of possible action to amend the zoning ordinance, Chapter 2, Section 2.02, special use permits. By repealing and replacing the existing section. Now, John. WESLEY: Commissioners, good evening. We had this initial discussion last month with regard to amendments to this portion of our zoning code. We are looking at amending all Chapter 2 over time, which deals with overhauling all the different procedures, but we're starting with Section 2.02 regarding the special use permits. This is one of the ones we TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 3 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 3 of 27 use most frequently. It was noted last time, just as kind of examples of some of the challenges we see within the overall Chapter 2 is how similar things are handled differently and are not as clear as they should be. An example we showed you last time was with regard to notices and hearings that we find this information in different places, and sometimes, it's actually kind of hidden in the ordinance. And so by going through all the different sections, our goal will be to streamline it so they're all more similar and it's easier to find the sections and things we're looking for. So with regard to this particular section, 2.02, it deals with the special use permits. Special use permits are authorized in different zoning districts as uses that can happen or activities that can happen with the approval of the permit, examples being in the C1 district that you can't have outdoor seating unless you get a special use permit, that type of thing. Things in C1 district can't go beyond the 7-to-11-time frame, unless you get a special use permit, so those are just some examples of the residential, and the commercial's another one that you've seen a couple of times. Oh, with that in mind, we have basically existing section 2.02 A, the purpose, there's no changes to that. In Section 2.02 B, establishes the application, procedures, and requirements; we're updating that to follow our new electronic procedures based on your discussion last time, where we talked about our good neighbor policy, or our good neighbor statement, we'll reorganize this to actually make that a requirement up front with the application. We'll have some flexibility in what they would actually submit, based on the type of application, because again, some would require more extensive statements than others would, but it's up there as a basic requirement, and then gave more explanation about what we're looking for in those statements. That's one of the things that the commission asked for last time. So we'll add that up front, and then Section 2.02 B, is mostly a new section, provides an overview of how we handle the review process. Last time, the commission wanted some language in there, to basically hold staff's feet to the fire in terms of the amount of time we take to review it and get something to the commission and how long it would take to get from the commission to the counsel, so we amended that based on the discussion. In Section 2.02, the notice -- we've, again, put that all right there, and amended, so it's consistent with how I've actually been doing notice, which is posted notice, mailed TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 4 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 4 of 27 notice, and notice in the newspaper, and clarified the 15-day requirement. Section E is again mostly new. It provides for the hearing process who can speak, and investigations are allowed and written testimony. Section 2.02 F describes action that can be taken by the counsel and the commission. Current code has had an allowance for only a 60-day maximum continuance on special use permit. Based on our discussion last month, we extended that out to 90 days to give us a little bit more flexibility, modified the language that was previously shown to you with regard to the good neighbor statement, and so -- but it still allows the commission, upon your review, to add to or modify what has been submitted in terms of that statement to make sure that they are addressing neighbor concerns, and there was removed what has been an eight day requirement for the continuation of -- for it to get to counsel, and that's been covered now in the earlier section with regard to how that would be processed. In 2.02 G, dealing with the time limits, we discussed this since your last meeting, current ordinance says you have to get a building permit -- building permit within six months; we often find that to be a bit of a challenge to finish getting the plans prepared, getting them reviewed, and getting them approved within that six month time frame. So we've adjusted that to a six month to submit the building permit application, then a year to obtain that building permit, and then also, based on input that we received last month that sometimes these special use permits get issued and they just hang out there forever, so we've added in overall expiration. If you haven't initiated the use itself within 18 months, then the use permit will expire. The counsel, at the time they approve the special use permit, can adjust those time frames for a given use we just know couldn't happen in that time frame, or we want to make it happen faster, then also they can still apply for an extension. But now we have specific language in there -- proposed to have specific language that will make them expire if they don't get started. The remainder, Section 2.02 H, about revocation is the same as what's the current code. Section 2.02 I, was 2.02 B, is the same. And a new section, 2.02 J, about modifications and amendments. We don't have anything in the current ordinance that instructs us what to do if you've been issued a permit and how you might modify that or amend that, so it sets out some criteria that allow for some minor amendments that can be handled administratively. And then major amendments -- major modifications or TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 5 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 5 of 27 amendments, those have to go back through the public hearing process. And so staff recommends approval with the ordinance that's been amended based on commission input last month, we may take any questions you may have. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: First, a comment, John. Can we get a page break in between the old and the new? I've never struggled so much trying to get this organized so that I can read it and compare. I've almost got two piles, the original and then revision, so it's just -- maybe it's my -- if we can't do -- DEMPSTER: Can you speak louder? WATTS: No. I can use a microphone though. Sure. So I just struggle with it, without track changes on, and keeping track of what's going on, so that's one observation. I do think that in section 2.02 B , we ought to identify that there's a website, and what that website is, so that there's no ambiguity about what that process should be. Is it -- it says as directed by the director; shouldn't we specify what it is? Where it is, where to go to. That was one comment. And then -- WESLEY: Yes, before you go on, I want to make sure I understand where that is. WATTS: It's in 2.02 B (1), and it says, development of service department by the owner of the real estate with the area proposed to the special use using the process established by the director for such applications. Maybe it was clearer that you have to use the online service, just a comment. WESLEY: I guess one of the reasons we're staying a little bit vague is if we change that in some way, if we make it too specific, then the ordinance gets out of compliance with what we're actually doing, but we can see if there's a way to tweak that a little bit to make it more clear, okay? WATTS: And then the information that's to be provided in B -- I'm sorry, in C, isn't -- can't we require a real estate disclosure? And I'm not sure, Susan, maybe you can help on when you do a report, when you sell a property, buy a property, you do a disclosure statement of any anomalies that occur; shouldn't we require that those anomalies be identified -- and we are -- but how do we actually validate whether they are in conjunction with the real estate or not? DEMPSTER: I don't know what the requirements are for commercial though. I know in TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 6 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 6 of 27 residential they're required to be disclosed within five days of a fully executed contract, but I don't know what the terms are for commercial -- when those would be available. WATTS: Can we look at that, John, and see if there is an opportunity to get some sort of disclosure that validates what is or isn't disclosed in the application? WESLEY: I'm trying to understand what it is you're really asking for. So the applicant would file an additional document? WATTS: Yes. WESLEY: That states what? WATTS: And I don't know the term in the residential world, what's it called -- DEMPSTER: A seller disclosure. WATTS: So somewhere along the line, the person that owns the property is requesting the special use permit, had to have purchased it and there had to be some sort of disclosure about any anomalies, whether it was a flood plane or whether there was some previous damage or whatnot, and if it applies to commercial as well, that would be ideal. But if it's only on residential, and we still have special use permits for residential properties, shouldn't we look to see if everything is disclosed consistent with the real estate deal itself? WESLEY: Okay. So trying to think of it in terms of an application. So we get an application in, for outdoor dining at a -- an established restaurant that didn't have that before. So you want them to go back and give us any disclosures that were on the property when they purchased it? Is that what you're asking for? WATTS: It's more during the course of a purchase. The one developer who was here and bought a piece of property and was -- he had just recently purchased that property. But if somebody was already there and it was -- grandfathered that property, I'm not sure the wording we could use, but I'd like to see something that says that we validated whether or not all of the disclosures have been made relative to that particular property, other than just the applicant's word, so to speak. I'm not sure we can do it, for more of a question. DEMPSTER: Wait a minute -- WESLEY: I'm trying to understand it enough to think through it, and how it would be used, and help in the consideration of whether the requested use should be allowed on the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 7 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 7 of 27 property or not. WATTS: Maybe it'd be up to staff to look and see the recency of the sale of the property. Maybe if it's been in the same owner's hands for a period of time, or something along those lines where it didn't fall into a disclosure situation. WESLEY: Okay. So maybe back up under the application requirements, there's another item we could list if the property has been acquired by current owner in less than a year, less than two years, 18 months, whatever you want to say, that they then provide any disclosures that were made to them when they purchased the property? WATTS: You know, I think if you went back one year, that would be reasonable enough to go back and see if there was anything that hasn't been disclosed that should have been disclosed just so we have an idea. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: And last, should we have in here somewhere, that we, as the building department, provide a schedule of fees and a schedule of time line? I know we imply it through out, but is there a definitive schedule that the contractor should be provided as similar to what you had sent out on the time schedule for completion from staff? WESLEY: The schedule of fees is posted on the website and is readily available. WATTS: Is it? I should have looked at that then. WESLEY: So. Then the other part of that was in regard to? WATTS: The timing. For the -- from the time, and I think we've covered it from the completion of the application, but I don't know if we've covered it from prior to that. And maybe that falls more to the contractor and owner more than anything else. I think I've answered my question to that, so thank you. DEMPSTER: John, I did not see -- and I don't know if this is necessary, but -- I'll ask the question first. How often does an applicant request an extension? WESLEY: We've certainly had a couple -- DEMPSTER: Is that a common occurrence? WESLEY: We've had a couple here recently that have happened. The residential at King Street and Saguaro Blvd has requested a couple, and the one at Saguaro and Trevino. DEMPSTER: Okay. WESLEY: Those have. They've both been placed on somewhat of current market TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 8 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 8 of 27 conditions, and the difficulty of getting the professional designers to complete the design process in a timely manner. Others I can think of that we've done since the time I've been here; we've just moved right without any need for extension. DEMPSTER: Okay. Is it necessary to list the process or reference where that information is within the ordinance or is that too specific? WESLEY: I'm not sure I understand. DEMPSTER: What is the process to -- WESLEY: For an extension? DEMPSTER: -- to request it? Um-hum. WESLEY: Okay. It's -- because it's very general, I -- hopefully, it says it in here, that you just submit it right in your request. DEMPSTER: Okay. WESLEY: Before -- DEMPSTER: It just says that they can -- what I'm reading, that they can, so I just didn't know if it was necessary to -- WESLEY: It doesn't say that quite specifically, I can add that language in there later, submit it right in their request. DEMPSTER: And again, I didn't know if it was a frequent thing, if it was necessary to further make a note. WESLEY: Yeah, so item G(3), prior determination of an improved (indiscernible). The applicant may make a written request to reconsider these permits. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. KOVACEVIC: Mr. Gray? GRAY: No, no additional -- no additional adds for me, John. I appreciate the adds that have been made in the current document. Just wanted to touch quickly, I suppose, on conveyance of special use -- KOVACEVIC: We lost you, Peter. Commissioner Gray, we don't hear you. GRAY: Sorry about that, John. The audio's cutting in and out here. I'll start over there. With regard to special use permits, I just wanted to double check my understanding with all of the language changes within this amendment, that a special use permit still cannot convey without the improvements actually having taking place. Perhaps a seller TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 9 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 9 of 27 couldn't -- a seller couldn't obtain a special use permit, and then that special use permit convey to a new buyer down the road, so in effect, what I want to make sure we're not going to enable is setting up a special use permit so that a property could be sold. Is that still the case that that -- those mechanics are not allowed under the current language? WESLEY: Yes, that's the case. It runs with the applicant until such time that it's actually established, and then it runs with the land. GRAY: Okay. And if the applicant -- if the property goes through any form of conveyance, then the special use permit becomes void provided those improvements were not put in place, correct? WESLEY: Correct. GRAY: Okay, thank you. No further questions, Dan, thanks. KOVACEVIC: So we have some modifications. WESLEY: Yes, so do I. So Commissioners, it's up to you if you want to see this come back with those changes, or if you want to recommend it with those changes and trust that we can adjust the ordinance with those modifications. Either way, I'm fine with. KOVACEVIC: So Commissioners, we can either make a motion or postpone or -- what do we do, carry -- table it? WESLEY: Continue it -- KOVACEVIC: Continue it -- WESLEY: -- to your next meeting. KOVACEVIC: -- to the next meeting. WATTS: I think that the suggestions are going to be dealt with. And they're kind of minor, they're not major in nature, and I'd hate to procrastinate. I'd just as soon move forward, taking into account the comments that we've made, finding a way to integrate those into the existing document, and get this one off the table, and move on to the next one. DEMPSTER: Do you make a motion? WATTS: Yeah, I would move that we approve as submitted, with the additional recommendations and comments that were made by Commission. DEMPSTER: I second. KOVACEVIC: Any further discussion? All in favor? Aye. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 10 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 10 of 27 ALL: Aye. WOODWARD: 5-0. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Item 6, review and discuss draft language for a zoning ordinance text amendment to provide for drug and alcohol treatment centers and detoxification facilities. WESLEY: Commissioners, we're back again. Let's go quickly through these initial slides, because there are things that we have seen before. But I just -- in case we have anybody new, I want to keep them from being too lost. So zoning ordinance provides a list of uses by zoning district, detoxifications centers and treatment facilities are not currently provided for specifically within the code, so it's open as to where they may or may not go. Based on comments that we have received over the last several months of discussing this, staff prepared an initial draft ordinance so we can have some public discussion on specific language, and can make modifications from there. So our goal tonight is to hear from the public that have had the chance now for a month and a half or so to review the ordinance, so looking for their comments on what we have put out there for initial discussion. So just some additional background information, detoxification and rehab uses are not residential uses; they belong in commercial zoning districts. The main purpose of commercial districts is to provide for shopping, business, and entertainment needs of the community. The town depends upon the sales tax revenue from those businesses, so as we look at these other ancillary type uses for a commercial district, we do want to do so with care to make sure we maintain that primary purpose, and we've identified the C-2 and C-3 zoning districts as being the most appropriate places to consider allowing these uses. So some things included in the draft ordinance to help regulate the uses or provide some control for the activity, is we're proposing for most of them that we have a special use permit requirement. So as someone might want to implement those uses, they would be coming back through the P and Z commission and town council at public hearings, to get those established, so the public would have the opportunity to speak. I'll also review individual locations and set in any specific requirements that might go with those specific properties. And also, because, a special use permit has been granted, through the same process, it can be revoked. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 11 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 11 of 27 So if we do have issues, somebody really not following the code, creating a problem, it would be possible to come back and have the use permit revoked. Some standards that go across most of the uses as submitted is some separation's required, so 500 foot from any residential zoning is what's in the draft ordinance, and then 2,000 feet between uses, providing for indoor waiting, requirement for the state licenses and certifications, and contact information if there are any issues. So within the ordinance itself, we have definitions for the four types of activities that we are proposing to now regulate, look at each of those individually, the -- maybe the easiest one, the substance abuse treatment centers -- no lodging, no detox, just treatment facility, so this is basically what they have down here at Fountain Hills Recovery, above All American Grill, which has been operated in the C-2 district for a number of years, so given that that has been going by right already, so the proposal is that it would be a by right use in the C-2 and C-3 districts, with no separation requirements, no additional standards with that. Going to the next two, they're fairly similar. The substance abuse treatment center that does have lodging, so people are living there and getting their treatment, or the detoxification center that actually has inpatient care, so somebody's coming in, they'll be there for a period or days or week or so going through that detox. We're suggesting that's a C-3 only use, but still with the special use permit, and require the state licenses, the indoor wait, and the contact person, and when we apply the 500-foot separation requirements, and the 2,000 feet from any of the other uses, we're left with this one area along Colony, east of Saguaro. It's the only place in town where these uses could go, subject to approval of a special use permit. Then our last one is a detoxification center, outpatient, and so this is, again, patients are coming and going on a regular basis during the day, they may also be getting some treatment while they are there, but it's focused on the detox, again. We're saying C-2 and C-3 districts with a special use permit, again, requiring the license, indoor wait, and contact person, and separation 500 feet from residents, and 2,000 feet from related uses. When we do that, the areas on the map without a hatching, they're shown in red, are the initial places where they could potentially be located, so again, it's fairly limited. We've got an area down where the Target center is, on the back portion of that, meets TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 12 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 12 of 27 those requirements. That same area along Colony, east of Saguaro, meets that condition. And then the larger one is in the town's center area, which covers most of the Plateau A area, across the town center, the Town Hall campus, through that residential area to the west, and up to the -- behind the Safeway, behind that area. But there are a couple of additional regulations, given that we have the Fountain Hills Recovery Facility already at the corner of Saguaro and Avenue of Fountains, there's a 2,000 foot separation from the -- one of the other uses, that eliminates the rest of the Plateau A area, plus the way the ordinance is structured with the shopping plaza overlay, which limits the types of SUPs that are allowed in that area. It would not allow the application for the special use permit within that area, so again, that pretty much limits all but the area behind Safeway, as being really the only area available for type of use within that larger area. So we discussed this at your meeting last month, and this is a summary of what I recorded as the commission's comments and thoughts for some modifications that we would make to the draft ordinance. And so we have those already in our back pockets here to work on, and depending upon what we hear from the public tonight, and any additional comments from the Commission, we'll use these to go in and make modifications to the ordinance that you've been looking at. One of the things that was brought up last month was, let's also look at some type of separation from parks, and schools, and churches, and those types of things. We added a couple more to that list that from what the commission said. We used 1,000 feet for a talking point. We could make it more; we could make it less. But when we do that, we see that really these are the same types of areas available, didn't make a whole lot of difference in the map, but again, that's -- that was a starting point, we can adjust that based on discussion. The other one that was more impactful was right now it says 500 feet from residential zoning. If we make it 500 feet from residential zoning or use, we have all that area just west of here that Zone C to develop with residential. So that would now no longer be part of it and would additionally have the 500-foot buffer from there. And so, when we do that, you can see that this really does limit the area, kind of this downtown core, where you can have any of these uses to that area behind the Safeway and the -- I'm not going to think of the right name for it -- Fountain Hills -- what's the right name for that up there? Anyway, that area. The ordinance, because as I mentioned before when we did the group TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 13 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 13 of 27 home ordinance, we did not advertise for making the change of the name form handicapped homes for the elderly to group homes to community residences, so we're also including that in this because we're dealing with the same chapter of the zoning ordinance in terms of Chapter 12, that's just changing the name to community residences. That's in there, it says one or two, make sure you're aware of that. So again, tonight we're looking for any further comment form the public, and from the commission, and based on that, we will make modifications and schedules this for public hearing for final action. Questions or comments at this time? KOVACEVIC: Thank you, John. Commissioners? GRAY: Sure. I have one. KOVACEVIC: Commissioner Gray. GRAY: John, we talked just, I think, kind of in generalities, last month, but looking that -- the Paradise Valley model comes up regularly in this discussion, and I was thinking about it from a little bit different angle. As I was reading through the packet, and I'm wondering, if we were to retain the -- I guess a couple of things. If we were to retain the distances that were originally proposed, but add in the residential use component, so we've picked up those residences that were built in C-2, C-3, and we added the schools, churches, daycares, et cetera component, I guess that's kind of where my head is at to start, but also looking at it from a lens of need. And you mentioned that in your opening remarks there, that obviously, the purpose of commercial, and C-2 and C-3 in particular, or one of the major purposes of it is tax revenue. I just wanted to be clear that my understanding is that all three of these categories would be classified as services, and therefore tax exempt by state laws. I guess that was my first -- I just wanted to make sure I understood that properly. And then if that's a true statement, does the fact that these are services open up the possibility of us looking at this from a -- if I use a hospital term, a certificate of need? Some states allow hospitals to be built or placed based on certificate of need, which is population, demographic driven, et cetera, we couldn't probably apply the same prescription, but without any tax revenue, taking up commercial zoning that could in an opportunity cost be generating revenue for the city under another purpose, is a certificate of need (audio interference) in some way a demonstration of -- that the services are for the immediate community or the Town of TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 14 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 14 of 27 Fountain Hills proper. And I guess I say that from a couple lenses: one, revenue; two, a burden on services that's not necessarily toeing the revenue line on the other side of the lens here; and three, to Commissioner Corey's point that he raises regularly, if there is a need to serve Fountain Hills residents, by all means, let's serve Fountain Hills residents. On the other hand, if it's for non-tax revenue generates these services, we certainly don't want to open up -- we don't want to open up that avenue. So I'll close the mike there. Thanks, John. KOVACEVIC: All right. Thank you, Commissioner. John, do you have any -- a response? No? All right. Let's open the public hearing. GRAY: Chair, if I could, is John able to comment on whether or not those are services, or is it -- are those three categories tax revenue generating or not? WESLEY: Chair, I'm not sure, I think you're probably right that they would be services, and not revenue generating, but I would have to check and see. KOVACEVIC: Paula, any speaker cards? WOODWARD: Yes, Commissioner Kovacevic. The first speaker is Representative John Kavanagh. KAVANAGH: Good evening. Before you start the clock, I'd like to mention something that Commissioner Watts said about difficulty in figuring out what changes are being made. At the legislature, when we have law changes, we get the entire section of law that's affected, and any new language is written in caps with blue print, and any language being deleted is in red with a line through it. And it makes it real easy to see what's going out and what's coming in, so that might be something that you might want to ask staff to do, if they're not doing something like that already. All right, start the clock. Zoning, of course, is a very important protection for citizens. You buy your house and it's the biggest investment of your life, and you want to make sure that the area stays residential. And for the most part, with the exception of short- term rentals, which the legislature, over my desire, preempted, pretty much respects the zoning areas. However, there are also distance requirements that are necessary, because you can't create no man's lands between commercial and residential of, like, 1,000 feet, so there's a TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 15 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 15 of 27 distance too. So it's reasonable to have distances between residential properties and certain commercial uses. Now, of all the uses involving this drug treatment, probably the most benign -- and I don't even think it's benign -- but the least threatening or of concern to residential residents are the sober living homes. So at the very least, the distance between these homes, should apply to any of these other things. I think the distance should be larger for detoxification centers, which present a much greater risk to residential users, either actual risk in terms of people who are being weened off drugs cold turkey, running away, buying drugs from drug dealers in the area, so I think there should be a big buffer between those. But even the treatment centers can have people that are more of a threat or more disruptive to the community than those in the sober living homes. So I think, at the very least, whatever the sober living home distances are between each other should also be the buffer between residential properties and those zones. And the question really comes down to, should Fountain Hills even have this type, like, especially detox centers, of a use? We are not a big city; we do not have commercial areas that are square miles large, where they're far removed from residences. We're a small town, our commercial areas are tiny, and they are right on top of residential uses. So I really think it's important that there be substantial buffers, especially with detox centers, between residential homeowners and the actual facilities. And if that means that only a tiny area or no area of Fountain Hills accommodate these facilities, well, that's simply because we're a small town, we can't isolate these uses from our residential people. So I think our residents want to be protected from this type of behavior. I mean, we see problems with sober living homes, where these people are supposedly no longer being weened off the drugs, they're not in cold turkey, so it's even worse with detox centers, so I would suggest that we have robust buffers to protect residents, even if that means that they're actually eliminated from this area. Thank you. KOVACEVIC: Thank you. WOODWARD: Liz Gildersleeve. GILDERSLEEVE: Good evening. I am hopeful that this commission will be as brave and bold on the drug and alcohol detox facilities ordinance as you were on the sober home ordinance for Fountain Hills. In doing so, you not only protect residents, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 16 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 16 of 27 neighborhoods, and Fountain Hills businesses, but a clear and strongly worded ordinance with proper enforcement would also protect the vulnerable who may have to rely on a detox facility, from unscrupulous owners who seek only to use a detox facility as a cash machine feeder for their sober homes. For the zoning ordinance tonight, look no further than Paradise Valley. Paradise Valley is similar to Fountain Hills in terms of size and geography. They have strict regulations, enforcement, big buffers, and reasonable distance requirements to protect their community and the vulnerable. You can simply consider adopting their ordinance as it's reportedly working very well for their community. Lastly, someone from our town has apparently been telling realtors that empty commercial spaces in our town are good wellness rehab opportunities. Wellness rehab is double speak for alcohol and drug detox facilities, intended to confuse unsuspecting homeowners and businesses. It also happens to be the nomenclature used by our own mayor and some on the council. I think it's more truthful to call things what they are. But wellness rehab sounds like a place where, someone could go for a facial or a massage, not go get detox. But anyway, another commercial property near Saguaro and Shea with residential property close by and on three sides, was marketed last month by a Scottsdale realtor as a wellness rehab buying opportunity, and that property is currently under contract. Clearly, someone from our town is signaling that small town Fountain Hills could become a detox destination, and this is yet another reason why the zoning ordinance before you is critical and now urgent. Thank you. WOODWARD: Next speaker is Larry Meyers. MEYERS: Larry Meyers, 41-year resident, Fountain Hills. I'd like to go to base level thinking, and I'm going to take the commission's suggestion at their word, because I called Paradise Valley and spoke to the town manager, got all the information that I needed, and let's start with the premise that we're talking about a business, and dismiss all the talk of this industry as some societal savior and altruistic benefactor. We're talking about a business, then we're going to recognize that these businesses provide little or no revenue to this town or any town for that matter, because they're services. Then we're going to talk about these businesses, at best, are intrusive to their TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 17 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 17 of 27 neighbors, both commercial, residential, and public, meaning parks, schools, churches, and at worst, changing forever the surrounding area for the worst. As any business requires a population of customers on an ongoing basis to support its cashflow, recognize that this customer number is beyond any number that exists in Fountain Hills. Therefore, you must import your customers in order to support your cashflow, and in order for the business to survive. That's every business, not just this business, but specifically this business, and thus not actually serving this community at all. So I find that the draft ordinance is weak, and if we look to Paradise Valley, their buffer is 1,320 feet period. 1,320 feet, which means the Target center is off limits, actually the Target center is off limits at 500 feet, because the parcel to parcel property line from the Target parcels to the properties -- residential properties on Trevino is under 500 feet. So I suggest we set up what you suggested the town do, contact Paradise Valley, use their 1,320 feet, we use it between detox -- residential detox facilities -- I refuse to call them sober homes, because they're not. Representative Kavanagh chooses to do so, but that's because of the way the state's written their current ordinance or statute, which we're affecting to change. Set up regulatory oversight so that the neighboring businesses are not affected in a negative way, and ensure, for the most part, that these business, if you can find a place for them, are contributors to the community of Fountain Hills, and not set up, used the premise that we have to create an ordinance so they can be here, we set up an ordinance so that it is favorable to our community. Thank you for giving me the couple extra minutes, I appreciate the time. WOODWARD: Next speaker, Jane Bell. BELL: I want to take this opportunity to thank you, the Commissioners, John Wesley, and Rep. John Kavanagh for all your work nearly two years on all this drug treatment ordinances. Rep. John Kavanagh is looking at the possibilities of changes to the state law, so it's not just going to end here, all the work that's been done will make it better for the state. You've heard me say Fountain Hills doesn't need detox treatment. Fountain Hills Recovery offers acute and subacute detox treatment now, so you already have it here. There are many detox treatment centers within the 25 miles of Phoenix, and this information came from the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Service Administration under the federal government. There are 40 detox within 25 miles of Phoenix. Fourteen TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 18 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 18 of 27 offer hospital inpatient; 26 provide OTC; 53 offer med, two private. This ordinance needs to include -- and you've heard me say many times, all different ideas -- but it needs to go like sober homes, six people in treatment facilities, 1,320 feet from the residents, you need insurance, the patients should be allowed to go to the hospital if they ask, must be coherent to be admitted, they need to take in in their drug testing, tests for Fentanyl. The facility is organized to provide involuntary court-ordered alcohol treatment. You need adjustable beds, you report incidents to the state, medical personnel on duty to give them meds, 24 hours. Alcohol reception center inside, no loitering outside. All employees should know CPR. We've been standing here now for two years, and you guys were great on the sober living, and the council is the ones that watered it down, but we need to give them a good strong detox just like you did before. We appreciate all of you, thank you. WOODWARD: Crystal Cavanaugh. CAVANAUGH: Good evening, Commissioners. Fountain Hills resident. Almost two years ago, there was an email directed towards our town staff from drug industry owners who resided elsewhere, that inquired about detox zoning, and an interest in bringing one here. Since that time, I've been part of a group of concerned citizens bringing awareness to this issue, and the so-called sober living homes in residential neighborhoods. We pushed the town of Fountain Hills to take steps to develop regulations that would protect the quality of life for its residents. We achieved some success with the help of planning and zoning and the eventual vote from our town council that provided partial protective measures. Hopefully, these will be strengthened with the help of the incoming council and some changes to state regulations. The same must now be done with regards to detoxification businesses. These are commercial businesses that often negatively impact our quality of life, community, and existing businesses. The strictest location and distance limitations regarding residential areas, schools, churches, and daycares are definitely necessary. The numbers of actual Fountain Hills residents who would either require admission to inpatient detox facilities in order to medically withdraw from drugs or alcohol, or need to reside at other inhouse lodging addition centers would not be a substantial enough number to sustain that detox business, without importing other clients from outside TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 19 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 19 of 27 communities and states. From the beginning, I was concerned that Fountain Hills could become some sort of detox hub, with them flying in clients as was stated in one of their original emails. I once said that the drug industry owners were essentially pimping out our beautiful town with their ads that marketed our beautiful views and small-town setting. They didn't seem to like that term, pimping out, very much, but what else would you call it? There is currently a town branding committee that seems to like the idea of a health and wellness brand for Fountain Hills. Does this encompass these addiction and detox businesses? Hopefully not. The need for services for drug and alcohol abuse is real. But they already exist through medical consultation with your doctor, counseling programs, 12 step programs, and spiritual guidance. If hospitals are needed to safely withdraw, they are also available nearby. The inpatient detox facilities are big business that this small town doesn't actually need, and any outpatient detox services should also have clearly defined requirements, restrictions, and guidelines that are crystal clear and protect the community. And one final note, no, we are not heartless for having these concerns, most of us have actually been touched by addiction in one way or another. We just didn't try to make money from it by importing groups of people to a community they don't even live in. Thank you. WOODWARD: Next speaker, JoAnn Lyles (ph.). LYLES: Hi, I'm JoAnn Lyles. Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I'm a resident here in Fountain Hills. I have two young adult daughters who work at the Safeway off of Fountain Hills Boulevard, and I'm familiar with the manager at that Safeway, and by his own testimony, there are more drug paraphernalia trash at that Safeway in Fountain Hills, then there are at the Safeway he was at in Los Angeles. We already have a drug problem in Arizona. When I look outside my window, I can see people walking. Usually, they're older people, 70s, 80s, even. Just relaxing, able to take a nice stroll through the neighborhood. A drug center, like a drug rehab and alcohol detox facility, would change the flavor of our neighborhoods forever, and dangerously so. I have listened to some of the reports from the previous meeting, and I'm also aware of what has been recommended for this TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 20 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 20 of 27 one, one thing I did not hear was how many detox centers would be allowed. Is there a limit on the number total? My preference would be that they would be disallowed in Fountain Hills. We don't need that kind of industry, and the things that it attracts, and I am truly concerned that the acceptance of it in the form of the ordinance that we see now would basically codify the use in Fountain Hills for detox facilities. I would like to go on record as just opposed to any detox and drug rehab facilities in Fountain Hills. WOODWARD: Next speaker, Cyndi Starr. STARR: Thank you for hearing my comments as a new -- relatively new Fountain Hills resident. We moved here four and a half years ago from Prescott, Arizona, and in 2017, the New York Times had an article talking about sober homes and rehab facilities in Prescott, Arizona. Why? Because Prescott had more rehab facilities and sober group homes per capita than any town in the country. It was one in 30 people in a town of 30,000 were involved in sober homes or rehab facilities for drug addiction. It resulted in an increase in crime, loitering, businesses could not get customers in their stores, because they had people from the sober homes, from the rehab facilities, loitering on the sidewalk in Prescott, which is size wise fairly similar to Fountain Hills in population and in geographic area, for the downtown part of Prescott. So New York Times did a 12-page report about how bad it was, and the reason it was bad, primarily was because they had no ordinances, they had no zoning to accommodate these; this just happened. But the long and short of it was, it's a small town, we don't have room for this kind of a problem, it gets very complicated no matter what kind of ordinances or restrictions you would put around it. It's just a very small town, it's one of the reasons that we moved down here. Thank you. WOODWARD: No more speaker cards. KOVACEVIC: All right. Thank you, everybody. Commissioners? I have a question for you, John, I'll ask. The -- we keep coming back to the 1,320 feet, and what is the -- how is -- how does that affect the practicality of the actual number and location? WESLEY: So Commissioner, if we used 1,320 feet -- and I'm assuming that's from residential use from the way it was stated -- KOVACEVIC: Yeah. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 21 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 21 of 27 WESLEY: -- that that would basically eliminate all areas within the town. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Yeah, John, I was just curious to know, do we have any real data that shows how many actual Fountain Hills residents are using or benefiting from these facilities? Or is that obtainable at all? WESLEY: Commissioner Dapaah, I'm not aware of anything that can really give me actual specific data. I did earlier on look at general, national type specifics in terms of population that typically have drug or alcohol abuse issues, and that was back -- I don't know when that was -- May or June, one of those times, so I don't have the numbers in front of me now. But it did translate into potentially a few thousand people in Fountain Hills at any given time would likely be experiencing those types of issues. DAPAAH: A few thousand? WESLEY: Yes. DAPAAH: Also, I've heard, like, today, we've heard the word disallow, some are saying perhaps not even go there; is that an option? Wouldn't we -- wouldn't the town be opening themselves up to a lawsuit or anything of that sort? I mean, aren't ordinances really set to protect us, or protect the town, in case that someone wants to open it, that they have these borders. Can we just -- I just want to set the record straight on that, because some think that we just cannot -- we can sit here as commissioners and say, no, we're not going to allow it, so do we have that option? WESLEY: So Commissioner Dapaah, that was discussed with the town council a year ago, I'll say -- I don't remember the exact time, but the discussion there with the town attorney was that we can't outright prohibit the use. And so, that's one of the reasons that we're having this discussion, so we can determine the way that we want it in our ordinance, so that if someone were to come in and propose the use, we're not just subject to me as the zoning administrator making a decision with no guidance, but by having some specific criteria, we can ensure that we get the least bad result, I guess, is the way I'll say it. Based on the discussions that we had before, one of the questions was, how many could we have of the different types of uses here? And again, we'll come back to the outpatient type detox facility, we look at these, and we also consider separations. You've got these TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 22 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 22 of 27 two potential locations, where you could have one of each with 2,000 feet between them -- you can't have more than one of each at these locations, realistically, at this area, by the time you file all the restrictions, there's really no places. So you could have two at the most in town the way it's currently outlined. DEPAAH: Thank you. KOVACEVIC: Any further? WATTS: One more. KOVACEVIC: There we go. WATTS: So considering the 1,320 -- in lieu of the 1,320 going to 1,000 would we accomplish the same objective? WESLEY: Depends on what's the objective. WATTS: To eliminate them. WESLEY: Yes, I think -- as I recall from the maps, again, I haven't looked at that 1,000 foot in a while, I think anything over about 600 feet pretty much eliminates all the areas. WATTS: Okay. And if we think about -- we've gone to Paradise Valley, we've looked at them, and even though they are half our population, half our size, really, they have been effective in being able to control through reasonable accommodation, and the 1,000-foot barrier, and $500 so on and so forth, their criteria, why don't we subscribe to what they're doing, or plagiarize it in some manner? But at a minimum I would support 1,000 feet. That seems to not be tested at this point. WESLEY: Okay. I will do some further discussions with Paradise Valley. A big distinction we have from them is they have no actual commercial zoning in Paradise Valley, they allow some commercial type uses through use permits in the residential zones. We have actual commercial zoning here, so there's a difference and a distinction there that makes direct comparison a challenge, but I need to discuss more thoroughly with them on how they do what they do, and we can have that discussion next time. WATTS: Is there any reason that we can't use the maximum occupancy of six as we did in the sober living homes? One being medical staff that can, I assume, you have to have an RN or some sort, or somebody who is licensed to be able to administer the detox drugs and be there on site, so if we have back to five, even in a worst-case situation, with one medical staff, is there a reason we can't include that as well? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 23 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 23 of 27 WESLEY: So Commissioner, this is some of those things, particularly, some of the things Ms. Bell's bringing up, if we were to go down that route, I think we would be getting into the business regulations section of the town code versus the zoning ordinance, rules of how a business operates, that's not typically a zoning regulation. At this point, we would rely on the fact that they would have a state license in order to operate, and that the state is providing quality control on those types of things, instead of an actual number of patients that can be seen, and that would vary a lot with the type of facility, an out patient facility, a doctor's office were people are coming and going all day, the inpatient type, maybe we could come up with something on a square foot basis based on how large the facility was, how many patients they can see and how much staff they have, and that would get into the business regulation instead of the zoning ordinance. WATTS: And who would make the distinction between a wellness facility and say, a spa? WESLEY: We definite what we mean by detox facilities and treatment facilities in the code, so maybe we should look at those a little close to see if there's any further distinctions, but your typical spa, I don't think, is licensed by the state. These facilities have to be licensed by the state to provide these medical treatments. WATTS: I think the people that work in the spas have to be licensed kind of like how hair people have to be licensed as well. But I think if we can regulate that, I just didn't want it to be arbitrary. You know, I call myself a wellness place, or I call myself a spa, a day spa, and I can slide in under the radar. So if we can tighten that wording up I think that would be helpful as well. Thank you. KOVACEVIC: Thanks. Susan? DEMPSTER: Thank you. Just a couple of thoughts. We do have a process in place, and we have a general plan, and we do have a responsibility to apply what we currently have. And so I think rather than -- I mean, right now, we don't have any applications, and we should move forward in having the proper separations and buffers and whatever that effect is, that's the result. So I would like to see us put back in schools, daycares, parks, churches, and libraries. I think that's very important to have that. WESLEY: Was the 1,000 foot an appropriate distance there? You think it should be more or less? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 24 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 24 of 27 DEMPSTER: I think 1,000 feet is appropriate. I know people want more, but I think at a minimum 1,000 feet. I think it's important to have those other items spelled out. Those other locations, schools, daycares, parks, churches, and libraries. And there was a note about, and I was looking for it again, about smoking, was there something about -- WESLEY: I came up last time and said it was something that'd we'd look at -- DEMPSTER: So I was thinking about, and forgive me, I'm not a smoker, but I did look up -- I thought smoking was prohibited from public places and healthcare facilities and such, so would that be an issue? Is that -- WESLEY: Commissioner, I'll would have to look at those regulations and those regulations about indoor, there are regulations about certain distances from entries -- DEMPSTER: Yes. WESLEY: -- once you get beyond that, just out in the parking lot of any type of facility, I don't know if there are any -- DEMPSTER: Okay. WESLEY: -- requirements and regulations. DEMPSTER: Yeah. From reading through, and my interpretation and reading it is that it would not be allowed. The facility could have a designated area but there's very specific rules about that. But anyway, if you could just double check that, that would be appreciated. KOVACEVIC: Thank you, Commissioner. Commissioner Gray? GRAY: I (indiscernible). I appreciate everybody who came tonight and spoke and took some notes that I think we can carry forward. I guess -- I'm very much with Susan's statement on continuing to promote keeping the language regarding schools, daycares, et cetera, in, and distance is subject to some more discussion, I suppose. Very much in favor of keeping the add -- maybe not keeping the add but continuing to promote a separation from residential uses that are already in C-2 and C-3. To me those are -- to some degree those are the residences that are most likely to be affected adversely by this type of use if it were to come adjacent to or within proximity, so I think that that's -- so I think it's incumbent on us to keep that -- keep that use scenario in mind here. And then, I guess I'm really fixated, and I don't -- I'm not saying I know how to do it, I'm not saying I know what the -- what the formula is, but I'm really kind of fixated on what the special TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 25 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 25 of 27 use permit for this type of use is. I'm very much in favor of trying to find a way to require a certificate of need, or a demonstration of need, and I think there might be some data interpretation that needs to be done, I think the number 2,000 at any one time in the Town of Fountain Hills, and that's seven and a half, eight percent of the population -- I don't -- may have had -- seven percent may have had some issue over their lifetime, but not raised to the level of an inpatient detoxification program kind of thing, but I think we need to delve into that a little bit further, but the bottom line is, I think a certificate of need, or a demonstration of local community served for a whole lot of reasons. But being a service -- a non-taxable service, being one of the primaries. So those are my comments, thank you. KOVACEVIC: All right. Thank you, Commissioner. And I wholeheartedly agree with Commissioner Gray on that, and there as to be a mechanism for it requiring a market study and how as part of that market study what the demand would be from the town for such services, and it's -- I don't want to jump ahead of ourselves, but it sounds like we're coming back on this. If you could look into that and what we could require in the way of demonstration that the services are needed here in Fountain Hills. That would be very helpful. GRAY: Commissioner, if I could add to your statement there, the reason I go to the words certificate of need is that it would allow for a progression of interpretation, if you will. So if one outpatient -- if Fountain Hills Recovery exists today, at an average volume of x, then applicant number two would need to present the demographic data and then do the deduct for the existing operation. So that's why it's a certificate of need type formulary on that. KOVACEVIC: And what you're saying makes a lot of sense, and there has to be -- does the town collect any data today from Fountain Hills Recovery at all? And maybe we need to explore going there too, so that we can determine, again supply and demand. Okay. So I'm looking -- WATTS: One more. KOVACEVIC: Okay, go ahead, Commissioner Watts. WATTS: Can I ask you task to ask either our town attorney or town manager, I know we got shot down by the town council on the requirement for insurance, but I think this TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 26 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 26 of 27 might be a little bit different. There was much more oversight on the sober living homes, and there was some rationale there, but in this particular case, because of the transient nature of the clients that are in and out, and to your point, you don't know what the traffic is in and out on a daily basis. Is it inherently more problematic, potentially? Is there really -- should we consider insurance requirements on a higher level, and what should those levels be? Maybe that's a town attorney's question, so. KOVACEVIC: So we're looking to continue what -- WESLEY: In this case, no, because the discipline is not scheduled as a public hearing, so you don't really even have to take any action even to -- KOVACEVIC: Okay. WESLEY: -- continue it. What I'm anticipating at this point, with the number of things that got brought up, and the research that's going to be involved, we'll probably have it back at your December meeting for further discussion. KOVACEVIC: Okay. WESLEY: Assuming you're going to have December meeting. Maybe you don't, but -- KOVACEVIC: Merry Christmas. WESLEY: -- that's about my anticipation at this point, to give you time to do the research and come up with some alternate language consideration. KOVACEVIC: Okay. DAPAAH: Great. And perhaps we can -- I'm not sure if we can put out an effort to maybe get an owner or two of these facilities here to speak to us on it. I'm not sure about if this data that we're asking for is actually obtainable, but at least they could speak on it a little bit and help us understand what it is. So while all this is being done, all this search -- research -- or whatever is being done, what happens when someone comes in to apply? WESLEY: So right now, while we're working on it, we would put them off, saying this is something that's being studied by the town, and as soon as we get an answer, we'll let them know. DAPAAH: Okay. And does that sound right to you? Would they just yield? Or could they just come in with a -- WESLEY: They -- that would be -- we would have to see from there what they choose to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 27 of 27 OCTOBER 10, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 27 of 27 do with that information. KOVACEVIC: Moving on? WESLEY: Moving on. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Item number 7, request for research to staff, I think we've given you enough. WESLEY: You've give me quite a bit. KOVACEVIC: Okay. 8, summary commission request from you. WESLEY: I don't have anything for that, although I'll maybe comment on the next one if I think about it enough. So your November meeting, we will have the text amendment for the indoor gun ranges. Do we have anything else that you had? And the special use permit -- special use permitted case associated with that for the facility there on Shea, and then I also anticipate having the portion of Chapter 2 of the zoning code for your review, having to do a site plan review. DEMPSTER: How about parking? Is that a -- WESLEY: We could -- we should probably put that back on too, but I don't know. That's why it's such a big one to bite on. It is ready, so yeah, I was thinking about that, I probably should but that on too. KOVACEVIC: Okay. WATTS: And one last question, John, would you look into what Mr. Kavanagh had to say about the track changes? WESLEY: Yes, and I could have done that this time. In my opinion, looking at it, it was so messy that I didn't think anybody would be able to follow the track changes version, because of so much moving around, but I can provide it. WATTS: Well, that and page numbers, because every time I drop this packet of papers -- WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: Thank you. KOVACEVIC: Okay. That's it. Motion to adjourn? DEMPSTER: Make a motion to adjourn? WATTS: Seconded. KOVACEVIC: Okay. All right.