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HomeMy WebLinkAbout220912 Summary Minutes & Verbatim TranscriptTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 1 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 1 of 62 Post-Production File Town of Fountain Hills September 12, 2022 Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC * * * * * Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. * * * * * TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 2 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 2 of 62 GRAY: All right. Good evening. I'd like to call this meeting to order. This is the September 12th version of the Planning and Zoning Commission Meeting for Town of Fountain Hills. Would you please rise for Pledge of Allegiance and a moment of silence. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. [Pause] GRAY: All right. Moving into tonight's agenda. Agenda Item 3, Call to the Public. Do we have any speaker cards? PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Yes, we do. GRAY: Very good. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: We have Jane Bell. BELL: Chairman and Commissioners, I would like to bring to your attention the nature of the change -- PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Microphone. BELL: -- for the noise code. They can't hear me? Okay. There is a new statute, HB 2389, that has been through the -- improved through the House. And it's going to the Senate. In this, they are trying to take and do law enforcement using the decibels to designate whether something is too loud. I have put in your packet there for you the three areas. Maricopa County, Paradise Valley, and Scottsdale have that right now. At night, their decibels are 45 to -- from 10 to 7 a.m. And Scottsdale's is 45, from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. I hope this information might give you some idea as to help develop a new noise code. It needs to be able to be enforced by law enforcement. This would help the house. the neighbors with the rentals and for sober living. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Ms. Bell. John, is staff -- staff's aware of the House bill in circulation. I know we picked up this topic, I'm going to say, what, 18 months or so ago, looking at -- at decibel meters as it related to noise complaints and so on? And the sheriff's office was not in favor of metering at that time, if I recall. WESLEY: Yes. That's correct. We have recently done some amendments to that code. But as a call of the public item, we really can't discuss it this evening. We'll just take it TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 3 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 3 of 62 under -- GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: -- advisement. GRAY: So we can just make a note of -- of that for future study? Okay. Thank you, John. All right. I'm going to slip in roll call here between Agenda Item 3 and 4. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Thank you, Chairman. Please note for the record that all commissioners are present and that we have a quorum. GRAY: Thank you very much. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: You're welcome. GRAY: Very expeditious. All right. Agenda Item Number 4, consideration and possible action approving the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission from June 13th, 2022. Commissioners, any discussion or a motion, please. DEMPSTER: I would like to make a motion to approve the regular meeting minutes of the Planning and Zoning Commission June 13th, 2022 meeting. GRAY: Commissioners, a second? COREY: Second. GRAY: All in favor? ALL: Aye. GRAY: Opposed? 7-0. All right. Agenda Item Number 5, public hearing consideration and possible action regarding a rezone of a property at 17205 East Shea Boulevard, approximately 1.43 acres, generally located approximately 1,400 feet southeast of the southeast corner of North Saguaro Boulevard and East Shea Boulevard, from the C-1 Zoning designation Neighborhood Commercial and Professional to C-2 Intermediate Commercial Zoning District. Farhad, your presentation, please. TAVASSOLI: Yes. Okay, well, that's not it. Here we go. Okay. Thank you. And good evening, Mr. Chairman, members of the Commission, and the public. As you mentioned, this request is for a rezone for a -- we'll talk about the subject TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 4 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 4 of 62 property later, but from the C-1 Zoning District to the C-2, in other words, from Neighborhood Commercial and Professional to the C-2 or Intermediate Commercial District, to allow a live fire practice range indoor. The subject property for this request is a 1.43-acre developed property, located about 1,200 feet or so northwest of the intersection with -- of Shea Boulevard and State Route 87, or as I mentioned in the report, if you prefer 1,400 feet southeast of Saguaro and Shea Boulevard. It is home to a 7,500-square foot empty shell building currently. Well, actually, it's currently being improved. I'll discuss that a little bit more later. But it has sat vacant for quite some time, actually since 2008, since the property was developed with the existing buildings that you see on there right now. It is connected to a neighboring parcel here immediately to the southeast and is part of a much larger commercial strip center. As I mentioned, the sum -- I've summarized the request here in the beginning real quick. It's a rezone from a C-1 to a C-2. It's for a proposed indoor live-fire range. It's going to be within an existing 7,500-square foot building, part of which is currently being improved, tentative improvements for a gun shop, which Planning and Zoning staff is determined that it is a allowable use by a right within the C- 1 Zoning District. What we found questionable is the -- the live-fire range that was being proposed, and hence the reason for the reason and request before you. I wanted to talk about a little bit more in detail the difference between a C-1 and a C-2 District, and what is intended market area is. So in the zoning ordinance, the C-1 Zoning District allows -- is intended to accommodate modest well-designed commercial enterprises to serve a surrounding residential neighborhood. Going on, it is intended to integrate limited commercial activity and professional offices within residential land uses in a climate favorable to both. And particular attention should be given to the interface between commercial and professional uses within the neighborhood which surrounds it. So in summary, the C-1 and the uses listed in the zoning ordinance are intended to serve the neighboring community within a smaller radius than a C-2 would. And so by comparison, a C-2 is to -- intended to provide the sale of commodities and the performance of services and other activities in which the market area extends beyond the immediate neighborhood. It is designed for application at major street intersections, which the subject property is not right at the corner of a major street intersection. It's TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 5 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 5 of 62 about 1,400 feet from Saguaro and Shea as I mentioned. Staff has determined that based on these definitions for a C-2 use, staff has determined that an indoor live-fire range most closely falls under this zoning classification because it's intended to serve a much broader area. And I believe the -- the applicant's representative just joined us. As I mentioned, the existing zoning district is a C-1. I redid the aerial photograph that I showed you earlier to give you a much wider picture of what the neighboring zoning districts are. It is, the subject property is adjacent to the R1-43 Zoning District, particularly to the south and to the -- to the west. It's the older phase of FireRock. And all the larger lots here that you see are -- are developed with single-family residences. Some higher-density development, as you can see here with the R5 Zoning District here, and a little -- in a quite a bit further away across the street to the east is the R1-8 Zoning District with, I believe, that's just southeast of the Monterra. And then, across the street to the -- to the east is the C-2 Zoning District, the Desert Dog establishment, I believe a number of other similar uses. And directly to the south is C-1 as well. It's the Arizona Propane business. Now, along with the C-2 Zoning District, aside from the uses that are listed there, comes with it a number of development standards that vary significantly from the C-1 designation. So allowed by right in the C-2, are drive-through windows, 24-hour operations, whether it be a pharmacy or a drive-through fast-food window. And it also allows 40-foot buildings. Now, to be -- to be clear, the building that's out there right now is well under 40 feet. But the possibility would remain, should this rezone be approved, no matter how remote, that the building could be replaced by another much taller building or maybe retrofitted with a second floor. The applicant didn't provide an existing site plan. Just so you all have your bearings straight, north is towards the lower right-hand, going -- of the slide here, but this is Shea Boulevard right here. There's one driveway leading into the shopping center. I mentioned the attached units here. These include businesses such as State Farm. I believe there's a neuropathic health center there, as well as a RE/MAX building, and I believe, Roof King. This is the 7,500-square foot unit, in which the applicant is improving. About half the unit will be -- will consist of the gun shop. It's this area here TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 6 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 6 of 62 in the hatch that will be -- would be used for the live-fire range. Again, it will be entirely insulated, so as not to -- as to allow noise not to escape the building. And this is a rendering from the architect. Again, the building is existing. The only thing that's not existing that you see here are the -- the sales that you see in the foreground there. I did go out there and take pictures of some of the existing conditions of the site. This is taken from Shea Boulevard, just to depict the fact that it is set back quite a ways from -- from Shea Boulevard. The slide on the right is Cirrus Wash (ph.), which the parcel is adjacent to. This obviously is taken -- this slide on the left, particularly, is taken from within the center. You can see in the back -- in the background, perhaps barely, a -- a wall. It's about an eight-foot wall, a portion of which is retaining. Here on the right is the parcel taken from Firebrick Road, directly to the south. So you can see both angles. In the immediate foreground is the ADA access coming off of Firebrick Road. Again, I mentioned the walls, about 8-feet tall from within the center. But if you look at the other side -- and I'm sorry I don't have a picture here, but the -- it doesn't -- it's not quite as tall from the other side. I would say, at most, maybe only about half that wall is exposed from the other side. So Section 2.01 establishes standards for review of the rezone requests. And upon looking at that and -- and the nature of the request, staff's recommending denial of the rezone request, because of some of the potential impacts, should -- again, no matter how remote, the applicant's plans fall through. So recommending, again, denial specifically for the rezone request, because of concerns over the 24-hour operation potential for that, the drive-throughs, and the 40-foot building height allowance, which staff believes, as far as the rezone request is concerned and not -- not the use, per se, is incompatible with the neighboring zoning district, which is R1-43 Large-Lot Residential. There's no -- there would be no transition of zoning, like a transition use in between. Alternatively -- and this is important, staff may -- or rather the Commission may reject the rezone request, but also direct staff to -- or actually, recommend to Council a zoning text amendment to specifically allow the use that the applicant is requesting here for this particular parcel in the C-1 Zoning District, because it's currently not listed there right now, or a reinterpretation of staff -- staff's categorization of this use within any one of the -- the commercial districts. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 7 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 7 of 62 So with that all, I'll -- I'll end my presentation. The owners of the -- the gun shop are here as well to answer any questions you might have. GRAY: Very good. And do -- is it -- do you guys have a presentation as well that you'd like to make, or? SOUTHLAND: No, sir. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, questions for Farhad? Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Is there a reason that we move forward with the C-2 zoning, as opposed to the recommendation to do the C-1? It seems like -- I'm looking at your website, you guys operate 9 to 5, basically? SOUTHLAND: Yes, sir. WATTS: And the C-1 would be more applicable. It would -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Again, we could move. WATTS: Sorry about the microphone. The C-1 seems to be more applicable than the C-2. So I would be in support of C-1, and including it as 1. A couple of questions for the applicant, though, about -- looks like security is all front door, not back door. So you would have access out the back -- SOUTHLAND: So -- WATTS: -- for loading maybe, or -- but not for members? SOUTHLAND: Exactly. WATTS: Yeah. SOUTHLAND: The front -- there's -- right now, there's 4 cameras, but there will 16 outside, and the key-card locks, and we already have a security gate installed. The back doors are for only going to be access to the range, so no public access or private member access. It's only for staff. WATTS: Okay. SOUTHLAND: And that would be mostly cleaning. So it wouldn't be accessed from the back. The delivery is on the side of the building. And then, the main entrance will be on the Shea side. WATTS: And all the lighting looks like it was downlighting because I walked that property too. So it's all downlighting? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 8 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 8 of 62 SOUTHLAND: Yes, sir. WATTS: It doesn't reflect up. And your hours would eliminate that issue as well? SOUTHLAND: Right. The -- I mean, I've -- our architect had gotten some complaints. And I'm willing to answer any questions you -- you've obviously, got them too, I'm sure, that I can answer about some of the things we've done to help work with the community. WATTS: The -- are there caliber limitations? I looked, especially to the east side, or the east of the firing range itself, looks like it's a CMU wall. But I don't know if it's a solid wall, a tilt wall -- SOUTHLAND: Yeah. WATTS: -- or what, so. SOUTHLAND: So I brought the range engineer. I'm going to let him step up. And he can answer all the range questions because it's a professional range that we're having built. And then, I'll answer any other questions you have. WATTS: Okay. SOUTHLAND: This is Chris, from Action Target. HART: Yeah. Hello. I'll be the subject matter expert for any shooting range design or safety issues or questions. So I'm Chris Hart with Action Target. I've built indoor ranges for 17 years. And we've built over 50 in Arizona, about 400 total. So I've seen everything that you can build, and happy to answer any questions about this project. WATTS: So the only -- the question is for containment, not so much for noise, but for containment, is that east wall, as well as the ceiling. HART: Yes. WATTS: Now, it's unusual to have a projectile go through the ceiling, but it definitely has happened on a -- and so I was curious about that. And that's more of a building code issue than anything else. But the east wall bothered me a little bit. Looking at it, I'm not seeing anything that was identified as being a CMU solid wall. HART: Yeah, great question. So when we build a range, our industry standard that we build to is four concrete walls. We're basically building a bunker within this building, and so not only for sound but for containment so that if any of the equipment were to fail in the future, we still have a secondary barrier, which is a concrete wall that even rifle rounds cannot go through. And so that's what Mr. -- the applicant has done, Mr. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 9 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 9 of 62 Southland (ph.) has done with this space is build that bunker, that box within a box. And then, overhead, we do ballistic AR500 baffles that prevent any direct-fire round from leaving the building. And this is the same design that we build on law enforcement ranges, FBI indoor ranges, U.S. Military ranges. It's the same exact design that all of those public agencies use, but we're doing it on the commercial side. WATTS: So there is another -- a wall on the east end of the range, that it just isn't shown on the plan? It isn't hatched the same way? HART: All four of the walls should be concrete. And that's the way it is designed. SOUTHLAND: Yeah. But that is in the phase 2. But yes, that's going to be a -- the outside wall is only one layer. We're building a -- WATTS: Right. SOUTHLAND: -- whole, basically, rectangle inside. But it's very expensive. WATTS: Um-hum. SOUTHLAND: So we're waiting until the zone gets approved, or whatever we work out with the City before we, you know, incur -- WATTS: Right. SOUTHLAND: -- that expense. WATTS: That covers mine. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: So how many people do you expect to be -- you know, if you're -- if you're at capacity, how many people are in your -- in your shop -- SOUTHLAND: At capacity -- KOVACEVIC: -- and on the range? SOUTHLAND: It's an eight lane. So it's really set up as a private membership. It'll be unlike the actual public ranges, like Scottsdale, and all the -- basically, we're going to be the only private range that I know about. So it's eight lanes. And that means you're looking at one person an hour per lane. That's eight people in an hour. So in an eight- hour day, you could have 64 different people show up. KOVACEVIC: But eight at a time? SOUTHLAND: Yes. It's eight lanes. KOVACEVIC: And then, maybe you have eight people there -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 10 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 10 of 62 SOUTHLAND: Staging. KOVACEVIC: -- five minutes before the top of the hour waiting for their lane? SOUTHLAND: Yeah. So we have a lounge for people to wait. And then, we clear the range. And then, the new group goes in. KOVACEVIC: Okay. Oh, man, it's hard getting old. Is there anything about the range -- I mean, the difference between C-1 and C-2 that Farhad, you're going to a 40- foot ceiling, 24-hour operation, are the members going to be able to use this for 24 hours, or you have a hour -- SOUTHLAND: Yeah. KOVACEVIC: What are your hours? SOUTHLAND: No. It'll be secure. There'll be a range officer on staff. And the only time that it can be used is when there's a range officer on staff. KOVACEVIC: And so what are your -- what hours are you planning? SOUTHLAND: Well, currently, our hours are 9 to 5. On Saturdays and Sundays, we're 10 to 4. I assume we will probably extend that and just keep it 9 to 5 or 9 to 6. But we'll fill in the, you know, an eight-hour day. Our maximum capacity that we are planning on is 1,000 members. KOVACEVIC: Okay. But realistically, maybe you have, including the retail shop, maybe you have 25, 30 people in there at one time? SOUTHLAND: Yeah. We won't have -- I don't think we'll have that many, but yeah. KOVACEVIC: So why -- so -- based on the -- this just doesn't sound like a whole lot of people. Why the up -- why are you requiring the upzoning? SOUTHLAND: Okay. Well, you guys are all from the same place. So we already have a gun shop. KOVACEVIC: No. That's a question -- SOUTHLAND: We're going on year three now. KOVACEVIC: -- for staff. That's my question -- SOUTHLAND: Oh, okay. KOVACEVIC: That's my question for staff. SOUTHLAND: Yeah, so. KOVACEVIC: I don't expect you to answer that one. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 11 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 11 of 62 SOUTHLAND: We're just doing what you guys tell us to do because we want to make sure we do everything right, so. KOVACEVIC: Yeah. No, I understand. So put some meat on the bones on why you're requiring C-2 zoning. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Kovacevic, as I mentioned earlier, in the definitions for the C-2 Zone, the -- the uses allowed within the C-2 Zone are intended to attract a much broader area beyond the immediate neighborhood. Uses such a café for example, or like a Subway or a Starbucks or whatever, not to endorse those businesses, but is intended to serve the immediate neighborhood, say within a half mile or even a mile radius. But a C-2 isn't as -- may very well attract folks from beyond the Town limits and -- and find it worth their while to commute a much larger distance to visit this venue. And just by way of comparison, the -- the C-2 use, if -- some of the uses listed under C-2 include billiard hall, studios, such as a dance studio, music studio, art studio. The one use listed in the C-1 District that you could say perhaps most closely resembles this type of use is an amusement arcade. That's specifically listed in the C-1 use. But in terms of intensity, staff felt that it's a little bit more intense than an amusement arcade. GRAY: But I'm not hearing that from the applicant. I'm hearing maybe they get 25 people -- TAVASSOLI: Right. GRAY: -- if that. WESLEY: Chair, Commissioner Kovacevic, we agree. And we struggled with it a little bit. But we have to look at the use as a whole. And if we're going to say this use is allowed as a C-1, they could just as easily be doing something that's going to be -- draw 100 people, and be, you know, three or four times as large, once we say the use is allowed in the district. We can't just focus it on this one operation that's going to have a limited number of people. GRAY: I think the challenge to that though would be, C-1 parcels just aren't large enough to accommodate that type of volume anyway -- WESLEY: Often, that's the case. GRAY: -- generally speaking. WESLEY: Because we struggled with some of these same things, that's why I'm -- I had TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 12 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 12 of 62 Farhad put in the report this option of -- because it says -- it says right in the code, if somebody wants to challenge, you know, my classification, that can be appealed. And the Council can direct us to assign them a different district. So we wanted to have this discussion. Because again, we struggled. And I came down on the side C-2, because of some of the potential environmental concerns that -- that Mr. Watts is, kind of, asking about. We are right next to a residential neighborhood because it could be a larger facility and that kind of thing. So we're certainly comfortable, if you want to -- to recommend, and the Council would decide, that, yes, it's really this because it's a C-1 use. We'll decide that as a community, and not just me sitting in my office. GRAY: Okay. That's all for now, Commissioner. Let me -- I'll circle down here. WESLEY: All right. GRAY: And I'll swing back to you. Commissioner Dapaah? DAPAAH: Yeah. I had -- my question was more related to this handicap access -- access coming from Firebrick Drive. Does that lead straight on to Firebrick Drive? Is there any parking back there as well? No. So that's just mainly for residents in the area to access the site? Okay. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner, that's correct. DAPAAH: Okay. TAVASSOLI: Yeah, it comes off the sidewalk of Firerick -- Firebrick Drive. And it actually -- interestingly, it -- there's a dead-end not far away from where -- where you see the -- the photos depicted here. DAPAAH: So this may potentially lead to some parking back there, as well as overflows or? TAVASSOLI: Correct. In fact, there's parking there right now behind the building. DAPAAH: Behind the building? TAVASSOLI: There. DAPAAH: On Firebrick? TAVASSOLI: Oh, on Firebrick? There's no -- I beg your pardon? There's no parking? SOUTHLAND: Yeah, there's no parking. You know, that's just the private -- well, I guess, it's publicly (indiscernible) -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 13 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 13 of 62 TAVASSOLI: Yeah. It's a public road. I'm just not sure if there are no no parking signs there. If it's -- DAPAAH: Now, also, I was just thinking, for this zoning, is there -- are there any concerns with the indoor air quality, when we talk about lead contamination? Well, can we speak a little bit on the ventilation? SOUTHLAND: Um-hum. Yeah. HART: Yeah, exactly. Do you want me to explain how the ventilation system works? DAPAAH: Sure. HART: So we take 100 percent fresh air outside the building, City's air, right, going in through a HEP -- through a filter system into the range, 75 feet per minute. All the air in that range is exchanged once per minute, so quite a bit of air flow. And then, we recycle 75 percent. There's carbon monoxide monitoring. But everything that's exhausted out of the range is HEPA-grade, hospital-grade air through those HEPA filters. So the air that coming out of the range is cleaner than the City's air that's going in. And that's by default. It has safeguards built in with control, so that if there were an issue, it would sound an alarm and shut down the system, but totally safe, 100 percent safe for anyone to use. DAPAAH: And air going out is also filtered? HART: Yes. Again, so it's cleaner that the City's air going in. It is HEPA filtered. And at that point it's considered hospital-grade air through that HEPA filter. So yes, it is clean. DAPAAH: Hospital grade. What MERV rating is there? HART: That's the 99.9 -- 99.7 percent HEPA rating, the MERV 17 filters. DAPAAH: Um-hum. Okay. HART: So almost what a hospital uses, but on a different scale, because we're exchanging all the air in that range once per minute, quite a bit of airflow. DAPAAH: Okay. HART: Yeah. So if there are questions related to that, sound, the range design, I'm happy to answer any of those for you. DAPAAH: Thank you. COREY: Yeah. Just one quick question on the range design. So as I'm looking at the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 14 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 14 of 62 map -- as I'm looking at the design, is the firing taking place, like, from the front of the building to the back of the building? HART: It depends how you're looking. If you want to bring up a top view, we can talk in angles. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Aerial photo. HART: Aerial photo. GRAY: As you're doing that, if you could just help my naive understanding of the world. What -- a special bullet trap area? HART: A bullet trap? GRAY: Yeah. There's a -- on the -- yeah, what would that be, the south wall? HART: So on this project, we've specced a granular rubber trap. And what is it? It's 100 percent recycled rubber that's recycled, created into a bullet trap. And it functions of a lot like a dirt berm, an angled dirt berm, but one that's made of chopped rubber granules, so that we can recycle and mine the lead out and recycle it. So 100 percent of the brass and the lead used in this type of range is recycled. As we look at this plot right here, so the range is shooting from northwest corner to southeast corner. COREY: Oh, like the long way, I would say? HART: I don't think I have a pointer, but. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah, you can have mine, yeah. HART: Oh, good. So here we go. Okay. If you see my pointer right here? COREY: Yeah. HART: Firing line is back here, and shooting towards this direction where the bullet trap would be. GRAY: So Farhad, could we -- could we use the -- the blow up? It's page 20 of the packet. COREY: Yeah. GRAY: It'd be a lot easier for us to -- COREY: Absolutely. TAVASSOLI: Of the site plan? GRAY: It'd be the very next page after the site plan. TAVASSOLI: Yeah. Over there? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 15 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 15 of 62 GRAY: There you go. SOUTHLAND: There you go, yeah. HART: So you can see the sales here in the front. This is facing Shea Boulevard. We've got the firing line back here. And the bullet trap is over on this end of the building. So we're at a different direction than what we just saw on the overhead. But this gives you an idea of the layout of the building. COREY: So to clarify, they're firing to the left? HART: Firing to the left. Bullet trap on this end. Firing line here, firing to our left on this diagram. COREY: And the inside -- I can see that box, the concrete walls that you were referring to earlier. HART: Yes. COREY: But I don't see it on the left side. HART: Right here? COREY: Where the bullets would be going, yeah. HART: There's a bullet trap here. COREY: I see. HART: Yeah. COREY: Okay. HART: And then, all of these are concrete walls. COREY: Got it. And there's, like, eight lanes there, you were saying? HART: Eight lanes wide, yes. COREY: Okay. HART: Um-hum. COREY: Okay. That's it. GRAY: So I'm just curious, why -- why a bullet trap parallel to the shooting lane? HART: Perpendicular to the shooting lane, right? GRAY: Well, that's not how it's depicted on the drawing. HART: Right here. The bullet trap goes across the width of the range. If I'm standing right here where my cursor is, and I'm shooting this direction, this is the bullet trap right here. So it spans across the entire width of the shooting range -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 16 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 16 of 62 GRAY: Okay. HART: -- at the end. GRAY: So there's a -- there's a layer issue in the CAD drawing because the bullet trap is shown in that corridor across the top -- COREY: The top. GRAY: -- of the drawing there parallel to the range. HART: Yeah. SOUTHLAND: Oh, that's a service corridor. HART: Yeah. COREY: Okay. So maybe they were just swapped. GRAY: Yeah. There's something wrong-- COREY: They were mislabeled. GRAY: -- in the labeling in the CAD drawing. COREY: Okay. GRAY: Because they're flip flopped. HART: And we -- GRAY: At least on the packet we got. HART: We have not completed full drawings for this project until it's approved, so. GRAY: And it's erroneous to a zoning -- HART: Yeah. GRAY: -- anyway. I just was -- HART: Yeah. GRAY: -- really confused. HART: But any questions like that, I could see why that would be confusing the way it's labeled. So if -- GRAY: Okay. HART: -- there are any questions or any confusion, I'd love to answer that for you. GRAY: And just for point of reference, Commissioner Watts' opening statement about box within the box, that, you know the -- where that bullet trap is. I guess, I thought the same thing that there would be, kind of, a CMU behind the -- behind the bullet trap, which there's not, we're saying. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 17 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 17 of 62 HART: There should be -- now, we haven't completed the full plan, but all four walls of that new range should have concrete. So it's not shown right here, because it hasn't been approved, but it is planned. GRAY: Okay. COREY: That clarifies. Because the way that it's designed, if they were shooting that way, there's nothing. HART: Correct. COREY: It says no -- no concrete right into the service area. So I think that's where we were concerned with, so. HART: This wall where my pointer is -- COREY: Yeah. HART: -- this does need to be concrete CMU. COREY: Okay. HART: Even if it's behind -- SOUTHLAND: That block is all solid-filled CMU, 11 feet high. GRAY: Yeah. Okay. Okay. And we're going into the weeds here, but I'm confused again, because I thought we were talking about a box within a box. And that looks like an exterior wall to me. HART: This right here? GRAY: Yeah. HART: You can pour a wall inside of it with a footing. SOUTHLAND: Yeah. HART: Which is what -- GRAY: Is that intention? HART: Yeah, making plans to do. GRAY: Okay. SOUTHLAND: That's what has to be done. GRAY: I mean Roof King would probably prefer that, I would guess, but. Right? SOUTHLAND: Yeah, they might. But in front of that -- GRAY: Especially, if Corey's shooting -- SOUTHLAND: -- there's a bullet trap. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 18 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 18 of 62 GRAY: -- that's going to be a big problem. SOUTHLAND: So yeah, the bullet trap itself is not going to let anything through. The solid-filled wall is that secondary, like a box within a box. GRAY: Okay. Great. SOUTHLAND: What you don't see on there is the actual bullet trap, but. GRAY: Okay. Fair enough. Okay. HART: I do have materials I can pass out that shows all this equipment as well, so. GRAY: Okay. I mean, nah, not relevant to a zoning case. SOUTHLAND: But it's cool if you want to see what it's going to be on that in six months. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Thank you. I think this is an exciting project. And I'm curious, if I may ask, how did you choose Fountain Hills for the location? SOUTHLAND: Well, I'm a resident. And we own NeuroHealth Solutions. And well, we live here, so. DEMPSTER: Just saw any opportunity? SOUTHLAND: I always try to bring, you know, I try to purchase my products from local business owners. And I've been here since 1986. So this is where I'm going to be. DEMPSTER: Great. Thank you. It sounded like with the discussion about the number of people that would be present at any given time, we did not talk about parking. But I'm assuming that there are enough parking spaces there? I did drive through and it seemed like it, but did we do a count? TAVASSOLI: We don't know -- Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Dempster, we don't know the parking count offhand. But that was, I believe, contemplated when the site plan was approved, but assuming it was a C-1 use. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. And then, with our Dark Sky's rules and ordinance -- thank you. Has the property been reviewed for Dark Sky compliance? Because I know we did get a letter from one of the neighbors that talked about the -- the lights. So I want to make sure that we address that. TAVASSOLI: Right. Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Dempster, the -- with the site plan approval, which occurred, I believe, back in 2000 -- 2008, yeah, they should have TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 19 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 19 of 62 included photometric plans at the time, as well as cut sheets of the lighting out there. Now, has the lighting changed since then? We can't -- can't conclude that. But -- DEMPSTER: Okay. TAVASSOLI: -- but they wouldn't have. SOUTHLAND: I'll answer that for you. GRAY: Yeah, go ahead. SOUTHLAND: Okay. So there were 150-watt metal halide lights, three of them across the back. There's also two parking lights in the back. There's also one in the front on the right corner towards Shea, and then, one towards the middle of the property, which would be the end of our property. And those are -- those were parking lights. So there's seven bright lights out on that property. When we took over the property, the ballasts were out on the metal halide lights. And so when we went to get them repaired, it ended up being -- it was just wiser to replace the lights. So we replaced the lights. And we went from 150 watts to 100 watts. And they were at 4000K, which is soft-white, bright-white daylight. And so we set the lights at 100 watts at 4000K, which is 50 watts less than the metal halide lights that were out there. And then, we got the complaints. So I had the electrician go up there. And they were -- the lights can be changed. So we did change them to 3000K, which is considered, I believe, soft white. And they lowered it from 100 watts to 70 watts. And obviously, security is important for us, so they're 80 watts lower than what was approved in 2008. And they're a 1000K softer, I guess. But we did repair the lights. DEMPSTER: Okay. Thank you. SOUTHLAND: So for a while it was black out there. There's people, paraphernalia, and all kinds of crazy stuff back there. Oh, well, there was. DEMPSTER: Yeah. Okay. Thank you. And just last question, the -- that is an actual entrance, right? It's not a walkway from your parking lot to Firebrick drive, correct? SOUTHLAND: No. It's not a -- DEMPSTER: Is it -- SOUTHLAND: -- an entrance to the business. It's a walkway, an ADA. DEMPSTER: It's just a walkway? Okay. SOUTHLAND: I think it was an ADA access from the community into that center. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 20 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 20 of 62 DEMPSTER: Okay. SOUTHLAND: Honestly, what we get is people walking their dog or -- DEMPSTER: Yeah. SOUTHLAND: -- in the morning. DEMPSTER: Oh, okay. SOUTHLAND: That's usually what we get. DEMPSTER: All right. Great. Thank you very much. WESLEY: And I saw you resealed the -- your portion of the parking lot as well there. It looks pretty good. I went through there myself. Commissioner Watts, I think, asked the question, and I never heard an answer, I don't think, but as far as caliber limitations, are there -- is it going to be a rifle range, as well, and what -- SOUTHLAND: Yes. It goes up to .50 BMG. HART: 338 Lapua. WESLEY: Yeah. HART: Yeah. Majority of the calibers would be .223 9mm carbines. Those are what was commonly used. So it's very rare to have a very large magnum caliber, although it would be rated for that. That would be very occasional use. WESLEY: Okay. HART: Yeah. WESLEY: Thank you. SOUTHLAND: At $4 around, it's very occasional. And who knows, it might go up to $8 with the way things are going, so. WATTS: One more question, I think, for Farhad. If we went with the zoning of C-1, would it be applicable to the adjoining tenants, to Roof King, to State Farm, and so on? Is it that whole area, or is it specific to their facility? TAVASSOLI: It's the whole area, actually. WATTS: Okay. TAVASSOLI: Actually, it's the -- as I mentioned, it's the building in which this would be located and is attached to a separate parcel. WATTS: Right. TAVASSOLI: But it's part of one contiguous commercial center. And it's all C-1. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 21 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 21 of 62 WATTS: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Farhad, does that -- does that mean the other owners of the adjacent shops are all on board with C-1 to C-2? Did I understand that correctly? This -- TAVASSOLI: As far as -- GRAY: -- stands alone, correct, in terms of its rezone? The Roof king and the others still would remain C-1, if we went down that path? TAVASSOLI: Correct. GRAY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: That's correct. GRAY: Yeah. TAVASSOLI: Okay. GRAY: A couple -- couple questions, again, not necessarily relevant to a rezone hearing, but I'm curious, with the lead capture, does that get classified as hazardous waste? And if so how does that get managed? HART: Sure. GRAY: Internal, external, et cetera? HART: Yeah, the lead and the brass on the range are both recyclable materials, so they are not considered hazardous waste by U.S. Department of Transportation. And we do recycle that from over 430 ranges nationwide right now. So it's a very simple process where we'll mine the lead out, put it in sealed containers. And then, it's DOT legal to transport for recycling. GRAY: Okay. HART: The only thing that is hazardous waste are the HVAC filters from the ventilation system. And we do dispose of those according to U.S. regulations. GRAY: Okay. And then parlaying on the ventilation statement there, again, there's no shared ventilation with any of the adjacent suites, correct? This is all -- you're completely self-contained there? HART: That's correct. The ventilation system is dedicated for just the shooting range. It does not tie into anything else in that building or other tenants. GRAY: Okay. Very good. And you said 60 air changes? HART: It's one exchange per minute, so about 60 per hour, yes. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 22 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 22 of 62 GRAY: Okay. All right. Thank you. Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Yes. To piggyback on Commissioner Dempster's question, C-1 parking is how many spaces per thousand? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Kovacevic, it -- it depends on the use. So one for a doctor's office would differ than, say, from -- KOVACEVIC: Okay. TAVASSOLI: -- for a cafe. But when -- when a use comes in, we would all want to make sure that there's enough parking out there already to accommodate it. KOVACEVIC: All right. So a retail use in C-1 would be four per thousand? TAVASSOLI: That sounds about -- HART: Yes. TAVASSOLI: -- correct, yeah. KOVACEVIC: And yeah. So just a little quick math. If I'm right, there'd be 30 spaces for 7,500 square feet. And petitioner said that he might have 25. HART: Yeah. So there is something different with shooting ranges, where we've got a space that's roughly -- the range you said was 2,500 square feet is what we're planning. Only eight people can occupy that space at any one time. So generally, most cities exclude the shooting range square footage from that requirement, because there's a max of eight people that can use it. That would be the only change, I would say. KOVACEVIC: Yeah. But we're making the same point. I mean -- HART: Yes, there's plenty of parking. KOVACEVIC: -- what I'm saying is, you're saying -- SOUTHLAND: Plenty of parking. KOVACEVIC: -- there's plenty of parking. SOUTHLAND: Yes. There's, I think, we have about 60 spaces. We have a lot of parking. As a matter of fact, that's one of the problems in there. A lot of people keep trying to use our parking, so. But we've got plenty of parking. That's not a problem. KOVACEVIC: Okay. I'm done. GRAY: Okay. Should we move on to the public hearing portion of the agenda item? Do we have any speaker cards? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 23 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 23 of 62 PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Yes, we do, Larry Meyers. MEYERS: Commissioners and Chair, I'm going to stand where I always stand. I am against every C-1 to C-2 rezone that has ever happened in the past and will never happen in the future. So I don't think they should be zoned to C-2, for all of the reasons stated in Farhad's presentation to the neighbors. But I also don't see this operation as being a C-2, other than the fact that it is regional. That's probably the only thing I could see of the entire business that is a regional draw is the shooting range, because the rest of it, it's a store that sells guns and ammo. That's all it is. It's a retail store with a shooting range inside. So I would hope that you would consider allowing this use in C-1. Although, I think perhaps looking down the road as you would look down the road for a C-2 rezone, what could happen in the future, these gentlemen have a private club that they're talking about, which is high-end gun enthusiasts who know what they're doing. If you've ever been to a shooting range, there's a lot of people there that are not high-end gun enthusiasts, who I would not particularly care for coming to Fountain Hills and using a shooting range in another C-1 zone. So setting a precedent and allowing the use in C-1, I don't know if I'm -- I'm in favor of that, because just a regular old shooting range, you can get gangbangers and everybody else shooting sideways and everything else. And so you might think about having more of a conversation. And I mean, I'm not trying to put these guys off or anything, but it might be C-1 was some sort of SUP with stipulations to prevent it from being just a normal thing in any other C-1 in -- in town that could be a regular old gun range and attract people that you don't want to Fountain Hills. So that's really what I came to say. I love the business. I think their plan is technically impeccable. I've seen a whole lot of plans that are not quite this detailed that have made it through for uses that have a whole lot less tax revenue and appeal to drawing a nice group of people to Fountain Hills supplying town some revenue. It's a resident. And I'm -- I just want you guys to consider the other aspects of setting up a precedent for regular, old firing range in C-1. And I'm not sure that it's possible. If it's not possible, then, I'm going to have to fall on the side of letting these guys do it anyway. But that -- that's what I came here to say. Thanks a lot, appreciate the time. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Meyers. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 24 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 24 of 62 Any additional speaker cards? PADGETT-ESPIRITU: No, we do not. GRAY: Thank you very much. We will close the public hearing and open it back up to the Commission for questions of staff and/or the applicant before taking any proposed action here. Commissioners? Mr. Watts? WATTS: One last question. Are you going to keep the existing retail operation on laser, or are you going to move it down? SOUTHLAND: Yes. Well, we're also -- we do custom work, so we're going to keep the custom work at laser and take the product from laser and deliver it for retail sales in the showroom at the new location. WATTS: Is there any history of accidents in the management? I know when you've got a range master on, highly unlikely, but it has happened. And so the governance would fall to Maricopa County Sheriff's Office. SOUTHLAND: Yes. WATTS: How do they feel? I mean, that's really the question. SOUTHLAND: Yeah. They'll probably be qualifying at our range. So one of the things that when we talked to the City about, and we're totally for this, is having it be a private membership. But depending on how this goes down with C-1 with the special use or -- however we do it, we would like to be able to still let police officers qualify. So that's kind of -- when we talked, I think to Peter, I think, he's the building safety guy, he was like, well, what's the use, duh, duh, duh? And I said, well, we're going to have it be a private membership so that the level of training for each member is a high level of training. So that's kind of where we're at. And it's kind of open right now. We had no intention of making it a public range. But we do want to be able to let law enforcement qualify, which would have to make it some type of public access. WATTS: Um-hum. Thank you. GRAY: Commissioners, any more discussion? Farhad, I see your dilemma with this one, and the write-up, which I think is a very good write-up. So I think this is one of the -- one of the better write-ups that -- that we've seen since I've been here on the Commission. And I sit as conflicted as the write-up does in TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 25 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 25 of 62 the end. You've got a parcel which probably should have been zoned C-2 way back when. You got a parcel that was originally residential that a prior applicant got transitioned to C-1, and now, we're talking about going to C-2. And we've got a parcel that was built while it was C-1. The City allowed all of the buildings to face the rear of the parcel so that they could act more like C-2 properties, because I think the -- the drive behind would actually be, by zoning definition, the front of those parcels, right, if they were C-1 because they would need to face into the neighborhood? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, the -- the front would be considered the -- the shortest of the -- the property lines, either the one facing Shea or -- or Firebrick. GRAY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: And in fact, I think -- I'd have to look at the aerial, but I think there's a property line adjacent to -- to Firebrick. So that would be -- GRAY: The front? TAVASSOLI: -- if I'm not mistaken, considered the front. GRAY: Okay. Yeah. I just -- a C-1, you know, for all the reasons you called out in the report of being, you know, for the local -- TAVASSOLI: Right. GRAY: -- adjacent residences. This parcel was never that. Having said that, I also don't like the idea of opening up the C-2 unknown into the future, so. If we took up the suggestion within the report, which I think is reasonable, to redirect this towards a special use permit, but retain the C-1 as the underlying zoning designation, what does that look like in terms of timeline and process and in write-up? Has that been discussed at all with the applicant prior to tonight? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, and John could echo this, or not, but as since this particular use is not listed as -- neither as something allowed by right in the C-1 zoning District, but also not listed as a special use that could be granted within a C-1 District. And it may require a text amendment to the zoning ordinance to specifically add live fire ranges indoor within the C-1 Zoning District with a special use. GRAY: Okay. And what would the timeline be to pull something like that together? TAVASSOLI: Well, staff could begin drafting an amendment to the zoning ordinance and come before you in October and seek a recommendation to Town Council. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 26 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 26 of 62 GRAY: Okay. So that would put -- TAVASSOLI: Then, that would -- we would be looking at a November date for Town Council. GRAY: On the text amendment? TAVASSOLI: On the text amendment. SOUTHLAND: We could run (indiscernible) GRAY: Well, if we did the text amendment, then this application becomes really null and void, right? It becomes administrative. Or would the text amendment require a special use permit? WESLEY: So then, they would actually have to apply for the special use permit. But what I'm considering is, that -- that we could run the -- the text of the -- their application for the special use permit concurrent with the text amendment, with a caveat that it wouldn't go into effect until the -- the zoning changed. But that could cut down the time. And it may be also possible the Town Council could say, you know, we're going to go ahead and allow the interpretation for this particular applicant, but we want you to process the special use permit for subsequent actions. But we've got a couple of options there, that I think we could follow. And we would try to make it go as quickly as possible. GRAY: Okay. And I just want to make sure I'm clear. It's the catchment of the use, not the actual activity, is what's erring this towards a C-2 use, correct? WESLEY: It's a combination of those things. Again, as Farhad stated, as we look at the specific listed uses in the C-1 and the C-2, it's not there. So what's most similar? I found more C-2 listed uses that seem more similar than I did C-1 uses that seemed similar. Again, I had to think of it in terms of not just this limited size, but once you allow the use, you know, bigger ones and some of the issues that you've talked about in terms of the environmental things, how they're dealt with, are they public or are they private? So again, I erred on the side of -- of considering more of a C-2-type use. GRAY: Okay. I'm not sure that this is the route that we necessarily go here, but I would like to hear from the applicant on, what is your timeline? The last thing we want to do is -- is impede a process that -- that you've got other obligations hinged on. So what would -- if we went down the route of text amendment, which would allow this use TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 27 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 27 of 62 within a C-1 zoning designation, and under with a special use permit brought you back through in November, right, is what we're saying? SOUTHLAND: October for hearing. November for Council. GRAY: So November for Council. So best case scenario, you're -- you're to Council in November. Worst case, you're to Council in December. How does that sit with you? SOUTHLAND: That's okay. I'm a resident also. So I do appreciate us trying to figure out a way to allow a high-end range, and not open up the ability for somebody to put, like, a public range in to do exactly what some of the residents had stated. That's why we did this in the first place, is to have a place that was based on knowledge and wisdom and responsible gun ownership. So if it takes more time to do it right, then I'm totally for that. And I don't know the process you guys are going back and stuff with, I don't know about that stuff. So I wouldn't -- if I could have the approval by January, I would be perfectly okay. We are actually going through phases of development in the process right now. So we're trying to do the TCO for the actual showroom. GRAY: Okay. SOUTHLAND: And then, we'll open up the members' lounge and the training room next. So if -- if whatever happens, if we could be in front of whoever we have to be in front of to get the approval, before we place the order for the equipment by January, I'd be thrilled. GRAY: Okay. SOUTHLAND: I'd be appreciative. GRAY: Okay. I appreciate that feedback. So Farhad, John, what are the ill-intended consequences in your minds of doing this? We went down this path once upon a time at Trevino and -- and Saguaro, before your time, just barely, not fully appreciating the implications of -- of what we did there. And I think we followed that up with the text amendment to kind of clean all of that up, correct? What in your mind are the -- are the unintended consequences in this case of going down that path? TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman, are you talking about the -- the path where we propose a text amendment? And -- GRAY: If we -- yes, if we went down that C-1 text amendment path. Could we put TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 28 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 28 of 62 constraints? TAVASSOLI: Frankly, I don't foresee any -- I don't -- I don't see any ill-intended consequences, as you mentioned. We would still go through the notification process, public notification posting on the property, informing the landowners within 300 feet, so and not -- not dissimilar from what the applicant has already had to complete before coming before you. GRAY: Would it be reasonable to work in -- I mean, just not that anyone would design otherwise, but to work in language related to setbacks and -- and noise just to -- to ensure that that's accounted for, or is that -- is that just assumed within the -- the -- the review process? I think the last thing an adjacent homeowner, certainly, and probably an adjacent business wants to hear is a muffled pop, pop, pop -- TAVASSOLI: Right. GRAY: -- through their -- through their walls. TAVASSOLI: Mr. Chairman's, speaking of setbacks, are you -- GRAY: Well, I just -- TAVASSOLI: -- particularly building setbacks, or? GRAY: Just separations to, you know, to -- to make it an innocuous use, if it were to be built elsewhere in C-1. I think this case is, you know, really sits in isolation. TAVASSOLI: Um-hum. GRAY: But you know, five years from now, who knows what gets built? TAVASSOLI: Right. Mr. Chairman, so if the applicant -- assuming the text amendment is approved, and the applicant were to come before you with the special use permit request, the -- we would ask the applicant to lay out the parameters of the use, in terms of some of the things we just spoke about with regards to the ventilation, construction of the interior. And should the Council move forward with approving that request, it's going to be assumed that they will, the applicant will follow those parameters. And if in the instant -- in a case where they might -- there might be some sort of a possible violation, and John as the zoning administrator will -- will determine whether or not a violation has occurred. GRAY: Okay. TAVASSOLI: So to answer your question, the parameters should be pretty well laid out TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 29 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 29 of 62 in detail in the special use permit request. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners? Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think, I'm really in favor of the C-1 zoning. And I think the reason is, is of the hours, the hours of operation. If we change it to C-2, and we allow 24 hours, whatever, then, I think the negative impact is more consequential on the residents. And even though, you know, walking the property, they are 3, 400 feet apart, except for the one more to the west, which is about 190 feet or so from property -- from building to building, the C-1 seems to be more reasonable, because of the current hours of operation for what you do, because of the type of operation. And I would be against C-2 zoning strictly on the hours and that negative impact. DEMPSTER: And I just want to add to that. I think we have a responsibility to buffer the residential properties there. And that the one home is their property line, abuts the property line, all the residential. So I'd be in favor of amending or adding this use to C-1 versus changing to C-2. GRAY: Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Yeah. I totally agree. And I think you give somebody that we train -- excuse me, we change to C-2 zoning, and you can build a 40-foot high building and you can have a drive-through on that end cap over there for a, you know, fast food restaurant or whatever. I don't think that was ever the intent. I just don't see the intensity of this use being a C-2 use. I do understand the argument about, you're drawing people from further away, but you're not drawing that many people anyway. So I think we could -- I mean, I'm okay with -- with the text, you know, if we want to go the route of a text amendment or whatever. But I -- I'm also okay with saying this is a C-1 use, so. GRAY: Okay. Going down that path, what's the most appropriate motion, a motion to deny or just revert it back to staff with a continuance for the time being? TAVASSOLI: Chairman, good -- good question. GRAY: Well, and he's got an application on the table right now. We've got to take some action. TAVASSOLI: Right. I believe the Commission can reformulate, or some direction back to staff with a motion to look into the possibility of proposing a zoning ordinance text amendment, staff initiated. And as for the special use permit that would follow, that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 30 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 30 of 62 would be up to the applicant. SOUTHLAND: Mr. Chair? GRAY: Yeah? SOUTHLAND: If you continue this to your next meeting, so we still have the rezoning out there. So whatever happens -- GRAY: Okay. SOUTHLAND: -- on the text, or deny that then, or whatever, especially, what we bring back. I think that staff would do that and everything. Actually, the staff would be the best. GRAY: Okay? Yeah, I didn't want to -- I didn't want to take this off the table just yet, so. Okay. Commissioners, a motion? WATTS: I move that we continue the applicant's application until our next meeting, to -- for -- so that we have a text amendment to -- for C-1 zoning in lieu of C-2. And if that isn't quite wordy enough, I can keep going. GRAY: Well, let me -- before you -- before we take that any further. John, with our other agenda item next month was to potentially be our -- our public engagement session there, so are -- WESLEY: Correct. GRAY: -- we better to continue this for 60 days? WESLEY: To your November meeting? GRAY: Yeah. I think that would be cleaner, because we already pretty much committed ourselves to the other pathway. WESLEY: That's true, yeah, depending on how -- how big of a meeting you think that will be. So that -- that could be better to give us a bit more time to really think through the -- the options on the text amendment. GRAY: And that works with the applicants? WESLEY: It still could them to Council in December, I hope. I have to look at the calendar just a minute here, if you don't mind. I'm not sure. Maybe Angela knows when the Council meets in December. They will probably meet just on the 6th, and probably not on the 20th, I'm guessing. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 31 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 31 of 62 PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Correct. They only meet once in December. And it is December 6th. WESLEY: Yeah. So that's a little bit tight between the November 14th and December 6th. But as long as we agree internally, we can make that work. GRAY: Commissioner Watts, would you consider -- WATTS: Rewording? GRAY: -- rewording? WATTS: Yeah, I suppose so. So I -- I move that we suspend the request for planning for consideration for possible action on rezoning until our November -- what was the date? WESLEY: 14th. WATTS: 14th, for further consideration. WESLEY: And directing staff to work on a text amendment? WATTS: Yes. And staff will continue that -- the verbiage side of it. WESLEY: So text amendment to include this functional use within the C-1 under a special use permit procedure. Is that clean enough? It's not really that clean, but. GRAY: It can work. WESLEY: We can work with it. Lord, we know we're coming back on 11/14 to talk about this agenda item -- GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: -- and/or the text amendment. And they'll both continue to run in parallel. At which point we would -- if the text amendment looks great, we send that forward and we recommend denial on this rezone, or the applicant just withdraws at that point, and then applies for special use permit in parallel. SOUTHLAND: Or we can write the rezone application to do that. GRAY: Okay. So the options are there to make sure that we stay on their timeline. WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: Okay. Commissioners, a second? COREY: I'll second that. And then next time, it shouldn't take so much time, because you'll have written that up. And then, we can just review. You know, we already discussed it today, so it should be pretty short and -- GRAY: Yes. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 32 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 32 of 62 COREY: -- quick. GRAY: Okay. Angela, roll call vote, please. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Sure. One second. All right. Chairman Gray? GRAY: Aye. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Vice Chairman Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Aye. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Commissioner -- is it Dapaah or Dapaah? DAPAAH: Aye. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Aye. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Aye. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Commissioner -- I'm sorry. KOVACEVIC: Kovacevic. Aye. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Kovacevic. Thank you. I knew I was going to butcher that one. And then, Commissioner Watts? WATTS: Aye. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Thanks. GRAY: Very good. 7-0. Thank you, Angela. All right. Thank you, Farhad, much appreciated. All right. We'll move on to Agenda Item Number 6, discussion only point, but discussing the draft language for zoning ordinance text amendment to provide for drug and alcohol treatment centers and detoxification facilities within Fountain Hills. SCHLOSSBERG: I need to run to the restroom. GRAY: You want to wait? WESLEY: Yeah, we'll wait. GRAY: No, no, no, go ahead, John. Let's take a five-minute recess. Sorry. I don't want Scott to miss out. [Recess taken] GRAY: All right, John. We're back in session. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 33 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 33 of 62 WESLEY: Okay, Commissioners. So I think maybe, Chair, it was about a year ago in September that after we had finished with our hospital ordinance issue that you suggested, maybe the -- the commission ought to go ahead and take up the issues of group homes and detox facilities and so forth. GRAY: All right, John. WESLEY: And so here we are still working on it, but. So we did divide the overall project into two pieces, tackled the whole group home, sober living peace first. And then, we're coming back now to look at the detox and treatment center portion of that. So just a couple quick introductory slides, because it's been a while since we've gotten a chance to talk about this, just to refresh. So the zoning ordinance provides a list of permitted uses in different zoning districts. So within the current Town Code, detox facilities are not specifically listed anywhere as a use. Treatment centers are defined, but then, are not listed in any specific zoning districts. As we work to place uses, we look at, as we just talked about in the last case, the intent of the different zoning districts and the types of uses that are allowed, and then, try to figure out where uses should fit into that. We have taken some time to look at other zoning ordinances around the state, particularly in the Valley, but around, found that these uses aren't typically discussed in zoning ordinances elsewhere either. And I talked to staff at a couple of places, particularly in Prescott and Gilbert. And they just treat detox centers and treatment centers as just any other kind of medical use and classify them in that regard. Mesa does require a council- use permit for detoxification centers to go into commercial centers. That's the one place we found that did deal with any of these topics. So we've had some preliminary discussions in March and in May, kind of, outlining getting some of your comments, some comments from the public about how we might address this. We have gotten the input through the Town Attorney and the Town Council, that just ignoring the use is probably not in our benefit, because push come to shove, we would have to allow use of this nature. We can't just ban them from our community totally. And so by taking the proactive step of determining where and how we want them in our zoning ordinance, if somebody wants to propose the uses, then, you know, we can say what happens rather than just having to, you know, accept something might get pushed on us later. So that's where we are now in terms of having some of that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 34 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 34 of 62 input as trying to move forward with possible ordinance language. So based on the discussion at the last meeting that we had in this, I believe back in May, the direction that I understood was that I was to take that information, put together a draft ordinance, put it out for the Commission and the public for your review. And that we would then hold a subsequent input meeting similar that we did the one back in January or February, whenever that was, over at the community center, just giving the public the opportunity to come in and really discuss their thoughts and concerns. So while we may well get some public comment tonight, we're really looking for that to be at your next meeting when we really focus on that input. Again, a discussion tonight if you'd like to have it. We're not looking for any action, But that would -- we're looking for discussion after people have a chance to really look at this, think about it, and prepare their comments. So with that in mind, with the direction and discussion we've had before, we felt that the -- the uses we're talking about are more likely C-2, C-3 uses, not C-C or the C-1 or the C-O uses. We talked a lot about separation distances between uses that should be included, the need to establish some type of standards that could be associated with the uses to lessen their impacts. And they'd likely be beneficial to have a special use permit process, so that we could look at specific situations, see how they were fitting into a neighborhood, or -- I use that term loosely, just in terms of when a portion of the community that they're in. And by having a special use permit, if we did have any challenges that the standards weren't being followed, it gives us opportunity then to revoke that permit, versus just a use by right. So with that in mind, we have four different uses that we're looking at and provided definitions for in the draft ordinance that's out, so two types of detoxification facilities, outpatient facilities where a person is going in, getting some medical assistance to help them through a detox situation. This is not too unlike any other type of medical office- type uses. But it is on that outpatient basis. The person is not going through quite a significant of the detox process. The other is the detoxification facility inpatient. So this is the one that's got the serious detox. They need the medical supervision on a 24-7 basis while they go through that. It may last a few days, a week or so that they go through that detox process. And then, the substance abuse treatment center, which really is meant to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 35 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 35 of 62 be as it's defined in the ordinance, just treatment, no detox going on and any of that kind of activity. If that's going on, then that's back into the detoxification facility. And then, that's, again, strictly on an outpatient-type basis. This is pretty much the current Fountain Hills recovery operation that takes place down here on the avenue by Saguaro, where people come and get their treatment during the day, go through whatever classes and training and so forth. And then, they go home, wherever that is, a group home, or to their regular residence in the evening. And then, the other option there at the substance abuse treatment center is with lodging. So this is where you're going through the treatment, but you're also living there, now for some 30, 60, 90-day period while you're getting your treatments. It's a more intense inpatient kind of treatment that goes on. So that's the four types of activity that we've been able to identify and that we're including in this draft ordinance. So with that, starting with the simpler one, the substance abuse treatment centers. Again, we have an existing example of this use currently in town in a C-2 use with no special use permit, no separation requirements, and no additional standards. So the thought here is that we would continue to allow that, as it currently operates as a use-by-right in the C-2 and C-3 Districts. Next, the ordinance moves into the substance abuse treatment center, lodging with that lodging component, and also the detox centers inpatient. These are the most intense uses of the four outlined. And what the Code suggests here is that these would be allowed only in the C-3 District and only with the special use permit. They'd have to be state licensed. They'd have to provide for indoor waiting, so you don't have the people congregating outside. They'd have to provide for some type of contact information in case there are any issues, and with a 500-foot separation for any residences and 2,000-foot separation from any of the other uses that we've just been talking about. And when we put those parameters on this, the only area left in town for the use is this area shown in red, here east of Saguaro, along Colony on both sides, that little triangle-shaped piece. This is my approximation of our GIS person's better map, but pretty close to where that -- these two uses would be allowed. You know, with a 2,000- foot separation from any similar use, you could only get one in there. That would be it for where these uses could go in town as the ordinance is currently drafted. The other of the four types of uses is a detoxification center outpatient. So here, we are TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 36 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 36 of 62 suggesting either the C-2 or the C-3, but still with the special use permit in either zoning district and still requiring the state license, the indoor way, and the contact person, and the separation of the 500 from residences and 2,000 from related uses. And when you do that, this map shows the areas where the use can happen. Let's see if I can get that. And so it's, the areas in red without the hatch are the areas where these uses could happen. I'll go down to some more detailed maps. So one area that's this -- then becomes possible is the Target shopping center, the Four Peaks Shopping Center, the Target building itself. And the area is, kind of, the south and west of that. That meets all the criteria as far as the separations. The same place over on Colony, east of Saguaro. Then, we have this large area in the Town Center. But let me go through these. So I -- woops, go back that page. These areas have residential development in them, but they're still zoned C-2, so they technically meet that criteria. Here is the Town Center Campus. So we're zoned C- 2 also. So you know, that meets that zoning criteria. Woops, quit doing that. Woops, the wrong direction. So the only areas of actual C-2 zoning that aren't really residential are up here behind the Safeway where the Fountain View Village is. And then, in the Plat -- the Plat 208 area -- now, I'll move to the slide. But when he moved to the Plat 208 area, we have two things that really restrict its ability to have either of these uses. One is that you got Fountain Hills Recovery already in this area at the corner. When you put the 2,000-foot separation from that use to any of the other ones or to the detox center outpatient, there's no space left. Plus, the planned shopping plaza overlay and its restriction of uses would not allow the uses -- would not allow the detox center outpatient. So we really wouldn't ever get it in the Plat 208 area. So when we go back -- woops, wrong direction. When you go back to the slide, really the use couldn't happen anywhere in here, certainly unlikely to happen on the Town Center Campus, very unlikely through any of the residential properties. And so that really only leaves -- it's hard to do it this way. It really -- GRAY: John, just while you're there so -- WESLEY: Yes? GRAY: -- if we don't come back. WESLEY: Um-hum. GRAY: Those residential properties, that would all be hatched on the overall map, right, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 37 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 37 of 62 because of the 500 foot proposed? WESLEY: No. It's hard to see. I don't know if this laser pointer works. There it is. So there's the hatch. Because the challenge here is that that residential is Zone C-2. And so we're saying it's possible in the C-2 Zone. Now, if we -- we could make a slight amendment to that and say, make -- base it on the use instead of the zoning. And so if we say -- not sure how I'd word it -- C-2 zoning, unless it's zone -- unless it's used strictly as residential, then that would be another exclusion. Then, we would either just exclude that or draw another 500-foot buffer from those. We'd have to see how that works. But that's why that those areas are in there currently. GRAY: Yeah. I mean, just a note, not to hijack your presentation, but I think that that's a must. WESLEY: Okay. So in that case, if that's what's done, then that leaves these two areas as really the only places in town for the detox facility outpatient. And the one on the right is the only place for the detox inpatient or the substance abuse treatment lodging. And so the last thing, then, in --just in the draft ordinance, you may or may not recall when we did the previous ordinance for the community residences, when I did the public notice for that, I just noticed the residential districts, I forgot to put the commercial districts in there. Now we're in the commercial chapter of the ordinance. And it's kind of related topic. So the ordinance includes making that change in the two places where it currently says group homes for the elderly, to change those to the community residences. So that is my presentation. And again, the idea is that you've got this now to look at and digest and the public has this available now to digest. And we can come back next month for detailed discussion. But we'll certainly take any other comments you have this evening. GRAY: John, where -- what was our -- our final separation distance on the on the -- on the -- the transient homes? WESLEY: 1,320. GRAY: 1,320? Okay. Commissioners? Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think I have the same concern. I'm not a fan of the 2,000 feet. I'd still like to go back to the 2,640. And maybe or maybe not, Town Council will override that once again. And the other consideration that I've got is the outdoor waiting space, I'd like to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 38 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 38 of 62 see that eliminated. At a personal level -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- make it the responsibility of the facility, so that the outdoor waiting is, you know, they're not putting benches out there where people -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- can congregate, so. WESLEY: Right. So the requirement that's in there is that they're required to have indoor waiting. WATTS: Yeah. But under 02 -- 26.02, it's -- it's as an example, sufficient indoor activity and waiting space to limit outdoor waiting. COREY: Yeah. I thought so. WATTS: I would change limit to eliminate. COREY: I have the same note. WATTS: Okay. WESLEY: Well, sure we can look at that. But I'm not sure how you can prohibit somebody from standing outside a building. WATTS: Well, I don't think you can eliminate. I don't think you can prohibit them from doing that. But I think you don't want to make it conducive for them to -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- accumulate -- WESLEY: And no, that's -- WATTS: -- outside. WESLEY: That's the idea. WATTS: So not big patios and -- WESLEY: Right. Right. WATTS: -- no pergolas up -- WESLEY: Right. Right. WATTS: -- and you know, all that stuff for that. WESLEY: So that'd be part of that -- that site plan review. We'd look to make sure they're not putting those things there. WATTS: So you think building code would cover that, as opposed to -- TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 39 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 39 of 62 WESLEY: Well, the special use permit. We would look at the specific -- WATTS: Yeah. WESLEY: -- situation. But I can see if there is a way to strengthen that language a little bit. But yeah, as long as you understand we can't prohibit it. But we can make it as, yeah, conducive as possible, as undesirable as possible, yeah. WATTS: Okay. Thank you. WESLEY: Yeah. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yeah. Just to clarify. So the two examples you gave us where it -- yes, it could go, that's with the 2,000-foot separation? WESLEY: So yeah. So the 2,000-foot separation would be between any two of the same type of use. COREY: Yeah. WESLEY: And none of these areas are big enough to have more than one anyway. So you could make that distance. COREY: So even a 2,000, that's the only option? WESLEY: Yeah. Yeah. You've got a 2,000, you could only have one in each. COREY: Yeah. WESLEY: And if you made it 5,000-square feet or 5,000 feet, you could only have one in each. COREY: Okay. WESLEY: So that really doesn't matter. COREY: Doesn't matter? Yeah. Okay. GRAY: So using the four peaks, just as the -- as the shrewd example here. If someone were to redevelop, I think, it was Pier 1 or the Dollar Store or something, is west of Target there? WESLEY: Um-hum. GRAY: Someone could, under these guidelines, redevelop that portion of the shopping center into a detoxification with lodging business. Is that -- am I interpreting that correctly? WESLEY: Yes, with the special use permit, or conversely, there's been some discussion TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 40 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 40 of 62 about redeveloping that area to the west into a multi-residence development. And if they did that, you'd get rid of that red area, or most of it, it maybe a little bit bigger than 500 feet across. GRAY: So in this scenario, my concern is, if that scenario were to happen, and if Target or whomever the big box is, was to remain, I guess master development clause is aside, and we have no idea what's in any of those, but I would think allowing something next to our -- I'll call them our anchor tax-base -- WESLEY: Um-hum. GRAY: -- partners in the town, I think that might not go over so well. I don't have any suggestions as to how we would eliminate that. I think, in general, I think this is all headed in a very positive direction. But I do worry about that piece, specifically, you know, with respect to those -- those commercials. It's almost like it needs some nominal separator from other businesses as well and doesn't have to be, you know, it doesn't have to be on the same order as the residential component, I don't think. But any -- any thoughts on? WESLEY: We can sure take a look at that, Chairman, I guess, just on the surface of it. It sounds challenging, if we're trying to limit it to commercial districts to begin with. And then, you're going to separate it from a commercial use in a commercial district, the -- it becomes very limiting. But so I think the -- the main fallback here is the requirement for the special use permit, because you don't have to approve that, particularly if it's going to have a challenge meeting some of the other requirements that'll go with it, but. GRAY: And what would happen -- what would happen if we added language in -- you know, let's just stick with the -- the 500 for the time being, but what if we added in schools, day cares, and parks. That typical language that we see, would that change those maps at all? WESLEY: Chair, that would depend upon the distances that you put with each one of those. As I looked at it before in our earlier drafts, using some of the separations we have in the ordinance currently for the medical marijuana facilities and the, I think, it's the -- I'll try to speak a little louder for you. Thank you. That if we use some of those same distance as we had elsewhere, that they really didn't impact it much compared to what -- what these two do, that 500-foot residential really TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 41 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 41 of 62 seemed to cover the area pretty well. And do anything more, we're not going up with any areas where they can go. And I think then we'd have -- we're back to a challenge. GRAY: Problem, yeah. WESLEY: Yeah. These are pretty limited. GRAY: I guess my thought would simply be, before we head into a public feedback session, I think we'll get a lot of feedback, if we don't have schools and parks and day cares addressed. So I'd at least like to study that -- WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: -- and hold that off to the side. I've got a few other things. But Commissioners, any? Okay. And these are just questions at this point, in general. I'm happy to send these to you. But page 32 of the packet, so the frontend -- curious, you know, we say substance abuse treatment centers. I'm wondering if we should consider saying substance abuse/addiction treatment centers in that same, just to catch all, maybe a little broader terms, just something to consider. WESLEY: Sure. GRAY: And then, the last sentence -- on on that opening page, so again on page 32 of the packet, we say, typically for a period of 30 to 90 days, which I think was relevant predominantly for the transient homes. But I -- and I'm -- I don't understand these -- these detox arrangements quite at the same level. But I think that a lot of intense detox is really on a 5 to 10, maybe 14-day window. And then, they're moved into the transitional transient homes. So I would like to not have that last sentence in there, because I'm afraid that might be a loophole to allow for high-intensity detox outside of this -- this ordinance. I just -- I think there's a little loophole there. It's probably -- WESLEY: Okay. Certainly, we'll look at that. At the time I wrote it, I was trying to cover another gap that I felt like existed between the -- the sober living homes and other types of living facilities. But it's been a while now since I went through that thought process to remember why I came up with that. But we can look at that again, certainly. GRAY: And I appreciate you clarifying 26-C. I couldn't figure that one out, but now I understand. I have the same note as Commissioner Watts on the language on outdoor waiting. It just says to limit. And that's somewhat suggestive, is the way I read it as well. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 42 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 42 of 62 And I'm curious, again, just as kind of an add alternate, if we went back to the 1,320 -- and I appreciate where Commissioner Watts is coming from, but if we went to the 1,320 separation between centers, instead of 2,000, given that would align with, you know, what we put in place for homes, would that change the potential outcome scenarios, or is it kind of one in the same, and you know, why poke the bear if we don't need to? WESLEY: So I'd have to go back and measure for sure. But as we look -- excuse me, as we look at these two examples we have on the board currently, I don't believe that's 1,320 feet across. GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: I think you'd still end up with one there. All the way from this corner to that corner, that might be 1,320. I'm not sure. So maybe that gives you two instead of one, in terms of -- GRAY: Yeah, I guess -- I would just -- WESLEY: Which way was it? GRAY: -- suggest, if we're -- if we're achieving the same desired outcome with either measurement, then -- WESLEY: In this one, again, if we ignore the -- the shopping plaza overlay district that would currently prohibit the uses, and just went on the distance, then if that's only 1,320 -- so now you would be starting to allow something up here. Could it be more than 1,320 from existing here. GRAY: Okay. Okay. So it sounds like 2,000 is a -- is a good -- good number. Section F-3, just was thinking maybe -- maybe we require a sign-posted contact, so it's published and not a little more easily accessible somewhere in Section F. I don't know if we can do it or not, but I'd like to address the -- the group smoking that tends to -- it certainly happens in the residences. I assume that it would, may be a little bit worse in the detox process. And that's pretty much it. I thought in general, I thought the write-up and the draft is -- is in pretty good shape, so I appreciate that. WESLEY: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: I guess I did mention adding schools, parks, -- WESLEY: Yes. GRAY: -- day care, child care, where we can get that in. I think that's beneficial. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 43 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 43 of 62 WESLEY: Sure. Let's see if we can't go ahead and get those maps prepared and post them line or something, so that people can see them. GRAY: Okay. And then, on substance abuse treatment center lodging, thoughts on requiring perimeter fencing on those properties? I don't know if that's something that an ordinance can dictate or not, but something I -- and I just jotted down. And that's it. Commissioner Dapaah, any feedback for John? Commissioner Corey? COREY: Yeah, only that I think this was written up very well. And I know we've been talking about this for a while. So I think you've done a great job of taking our feedback and incorporating it into here. And I just wanted to comment on that. WESLEY: Um-hum. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: Yes. Thank you. Thank you, John. Great job. I just have a couple of questions. I too had highlighted the limited outdoor waiting. So I'd like to see some changes with that. And this -- I don't know, what is the difference between being licensed or certified by the State? So is that because we specify that, but? A copy of the license or certification by the State, are there different levels that we need to -- does it make a difference, or? WESLEY: Chairman, Commissioner Dempster, again, it's been a little while since I wrote that to remember exactly, but I think I was just covering my bases. DEMPSTER: Okay. WESLEY: In case of whichever it may be that the State has -- we got to have that from the State. DEMPSTER: Okay. And then, I have any other question. GRAY: Actually, you were wise to do that, because Department of Health Services, just in September, changed their licensing scheme. So CMS is now licensing. And the State is no longer licensing. WESLEY: Um-hum. GRAY: Clairvoyant you are. DEMPSTER: Um-hum. Oh. And in the different sections, it has contact information and process for resolution. And I'm sure the process would cover this, but do we need to TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 44 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 44 of 62 be specific to get contact information of the property owner? Because I know at times, if the property is -- if you have a -- you know, the property owner really needs to know if there's an issue or a violation or something. Just a thought. WESLEY: Okay. And we could add some clarity to that. DEMPSTER: Okay. That's all I have. GRAY: Very good. Commissioner Schlossberg? SCHLOSSBERG: Nothing. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: Thank you, John. This is pretty much the way I remember it, so. WESLEY: Okay. KOVACEVIC: Thanks. GRAY: And Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think the 2,000 feet, without the benefit of some distances on the -- on the overlay, works fine. And I'm happy with it after you've explained it. I want to reiterate the limiting outdoor to eliminating. And I think that solves a lot of problems. Even the adjoining properties being retail or whatever becomes the responsibility of the facility, not -- and -- and -- and the other tenants would be -- or the other retail spaces would be more comfortable not having to deal with that. And I think by building codes and county codes, the smoking issue becomes a code issue. So I think that's kind of implied in the -- in the post investigation. Other than that, I think it's a nice job. WESLEY: Okay. Thank you. GRAY: Angela, do we have any speaker cards on the agenda item? PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Yes, we do, Jane Bell. BELL: Well, we've been down this road before with the detox. But this time, it's a little bit different. There's a lot of different layers of treatment that you're talking about here. And you're talking about taking that and putting it in a commercial, plus staying away from the schools, kids, churches, and the rest. This really needs to be taken time. We have a detox right now. It's at the entrance of the Avenue of the Fountains. Now, that's already in a commercial. And if you're even talking about 500 feet, how far is that from the apartments that's right across from it? With the different levels of treatment, to me, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 45 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 45 of 62 going into these commercial areas that people have invested money in for other businesses, and you have a live-in treatment center and all the rest, I think this really needs to be thought out. I still am, and we told you the last time, I'm in favor of the 2,640. And the reason I am, North Carolina has taken this. They've gone through the Fourth Circuit. And I think that needs to be really researched out on these maps. I think we need to see where this 500 is, or where 2,640 would be, and consider the commercial people that are in those areas and what's going to be around them. I think this is a big decision. I think we really need to take our time with this and research out all of this -- the everything. Now, I went on in my mind and I put down some points. And I said it to you last time. But this is more than just a plain detox in and out. I think that one thing that should be considered is the number of people that are in the treatment center. I think it should be five plus the medical. I think anybody who's in treatment that wants to go to a hospital should be let go to the hospital, not holding them. No one should be admitted, if they don't have the mental capacity to know where they are. This is important. That person needs to go to the hospital, not to go into a detox center. If they want to go to the hospital, they really need to be let go and to go to the hospital. They should not be held. And that needs to be in an ordinance. I think -- I had a lot of things I could have put in here with the ordinance. I'll hurry. But tonight the talk has been all on the footage. We need to put a lot more in this, insurance and everything else. We need to really talk about this and get into it, along with the footage. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Ms. Bell. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: We have Liz Gildersleeve. GILDERSLEEVE: Good evening, Commissioners, Chairman. Keep in mind that we know that detox is already happening in the detox homes in our neighborhoods. They are not sober homes as the owners would like us to believe. And the neighbors who live next to one can vouch for that. That said, what is preventing our town from simply stating in a text amendment that a commercial detox facility is not allowed in our small town? Seems like we're trying to put a square peg in a round hole. Why not ban them outright? What is preventing us from doing that? I understand the reasoning with the sober homes. But I'm not understanding why we have to have this in TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 46 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 46 of 62 our community. We already allow detox homes in our neighborhoods. A commercial detox facility would simply encourage more detox homes in our neighborhoods, which is a lucrative prospect only for detox homeowners that bus in most of their customers from out -- outside our community. Regarding the first draft provided by staff for the text amendment, one thing that jumps out at me are the minuscule distances proposed between detox facilities and residential neighborhoods. For example, only 500 feet would separate a detox facility from a neighborhood. That's less than a city block. And only 2,000 feet between detox facilities, that's substantially less than a mile. And how many does a small town like ours need anyway? And what about, as Chairman Gray said, what about distances from schools, parks, and preschools? Would any of you like your children or your grandchildren or your neighbors' children to ride their bikes or walk past a detox facility on their way to school, or maybe to go get a Slurpee at the Target? Visit the ones down Shea going west and you'll have your answer. I believe Larry Meyers sent photographs to most everybody here in the recent past on what that future might look like. And it is not pretty. Bottom line, it should not be easy to open a commercial detox facility in our community, if it should be allowed at all, not when there are already dozens in Scottsdale, Phoenix, and Tempe. Near as I can tell, Paradise Valley doesn't even allow them, or makes it very difficult, just as they bravely did with detox homes in their neighborhoods. Let's follow Paradise Valley's lead on this. Let's contact them. Let's add that to our research and hopefully come up with the right solution for our town. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Ms. Gildersleeve. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Larry Meyers. MEYERS: Chairman, Vice Chair, Commissioners. So without belaboring the four-year court battle I endured in Texas and the cost. I can assure you that there will be no businesses in the Four Peaks business district that will appreciate any one of the types of facilities that John mentioned, as all of them, or shall I say, none of them are benign. Outpatient clinics are filth. Outpatient clinics overrun every neighborhood and business in their general vicinity. Outpatient clinic personnel, the clients, have a migratory pattern of a mile, so consider that. I know you say you can't TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 47 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 47 of 62 ban them, but I'm telling you right now that the neighborhood across the street on Shea Boulevard, those residences that are over 500 feet away from this place, are ruined, absolutely ruined by even the most benign of these activities, some are worse. My businesses in Austin, Texas, were directly next to inpatient, outpatient lodging, all of them combined. And I can guarantee you that's why I went to court for four years to get rid of them. They're done, the buildings bulldozed, the neighborhoods cleaned up. So I came to -- came before you guys God knows how long ago. I told you that that's where you will be. You will be right where I was by allowing any of this, except for maybe in that little triangle, and even that triangle of commercial businesses will be screwed. So I don't know. I don't have a solution. And I'm usually a solution guy. I say, make it so difficult that it's impossible financially to do it, because the base level of the conversation here is, in fact, none of these people in these places, or very few of these people in any of these places are people from Fountain Hills. And so why are we even discussing this? Because they're not us. They're them. And you're bringing them to ruin us. So I'm as emphatic now as I was on the first day. And I get it, it's hard. But never say never and never say can't, because I didn't in Austin, Texas. And I succeeded. And so -- and they said the same thing, oh, you can't. Yes, you can. That's my final word on this. Thank you. GRAY: Thank you, Mr. Meyers. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: There's no one else. GRAY: Thank you, Angela. All right. John, the option, the opportunity, the study on prohibiting, thoughts? WESLEY: Chairman, we had advice from legal counsel six, nine months ago. We can go back and look at that again, but that's the information that we got at that time. GRAY: I suppose, maybe, we head into our public session. We should revalidate that position. WESLEY: Oh. I guess I'll back up from that. Just a moment, Chairman. As I recall, I mean -- and we talked about this -- or I included it a little bit in my introduction, we could choose to do nothing and just wait and see if somebody ever applies for one, and deal with it at that time. The challenge, then, is we may be forced into something. And then, we don't have a code to give us any direction. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 48 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 48 of 62 GRAY: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not in favor of doing nothing. I know we've had that suggested a few times. But I -- I'd certainly appreciate that -- that side of it and giving us some rules to play by, so. Did we look -- and Paradise Valley has a -- a very different -- WESLEY: Yes. GRAY: -- model, or a different approach, or maybe it's even an unwritten approach to some degree. Well, what -- what does -- WESLEY: So yeah. GRAY: -- that all mean? WESLEY: And again, I know I've looked at it, but it's -- it's been a while. So I'll go back and -- and look at them again, specifically. But they are a very different community with very limited commercial-type areas and activities, and most of it is through special permits, versus having commercial zones like we do, so. GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: But I'll look at it again and see. GRAY: I just recall the underpinnings of Paradise. PV's model was, essentially, you must -- as part of your special use permit, you must prove that it's, you know, of benefit to the community, so to speak. And that's a very generic summation of it. But it'd be interesting to -- to study that and see how it actually plays out, or has played out, so. Commissioners, any additional direction or thoughts for John? Our next meeting, our October session, will be used as the public engagement session for this particular ordinance. So what we get on the table here today is what will go out in that session and be discussed and commented on. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think some of the comments from the public are worthy of seeing how far we can go. WESLEY: Um-hum. WATTS: There's no doubt. WESLEY: Yes. WATTS: And I think that the requirements that we had on some of the community homes, the sober living homes, and the requirements as far as licensing and supervision in all of those, should also be incorporated similarly to what we ended up with -- with the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 49 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 49 of 62 final version. So I'd like to see those type -- types of things included as well. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Thank you. And I just wanted to have on the record, that I get discouraged when I hear over and over again from people saying that we're doing this to help people that live outside of Fountain Hills. And I think that is completely wrong. I think there are people in our community that we need to support as well. So I feel like we keep hashing this out over and over and over again, trying to make the opportunities for these types of services so narrow that they're not going to be able to come here. And I just want us all to remember that, you know, we're -- we're doing this to support our own community as well. I am sure there are people in those facilities that are from Fountain Hills. They're probably people from other towns that come here. People from here that go to other towns. But this is our community that we want to help and support, so. Yeah. Thank you. GRAY: Yeah. I mean, I concur with you on that. I mean, that's why I think -- if I recall, I think that's what's unique about the Paradise Valley model, is it -- it essentially says, you know, demonstrate the benefit to this community, not that you're going to use us as a, you know, as a branding draw for your -- for your center. So I concur with you. I would like to see that -- as a part of this, if it's possible, if it's viable, I would like to see that component brought into the special use hearing process of, you must demonstrate that this, you know, that this is for this community, et cetera. COREY: Maybe we could have that discussion next. WESLEY: If you really want to. COREY: I do. GRAY: Okay. Last call for comments? Everybody got -- very good. Thank you, John. Let's move on to Agenda Item 7, Section 2.02, special use permits and possible amendments. Again, another discussion item only. No action other than direction. WESLEY: Correct. Thank you, Chair. And after we get done with this one, if you want to delay the parking one, I'm fine with that. But I did want to talk about this one tonight, because it tie -- does tie in to the other discussions that we're having. So Zoning Ordinance Chapter 2 lays out our procedures for processing of different types TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 50 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 50 of 62 of applications, rezoning special use permits, temporary permit, site plans, and variances. As Farhad and I have had the opportunity over the last couple of years to use the existing ordinances and the provisions, we've had some challenges and seen some opportunities for improvement to help make them more usable, more readable, more consistent, and to address some -- some concerns. So while I want to go over time through the whole Chapter 2, because each section stands on its own, we can do it section by section. And so wanting to do that, and starting with the special use permits, because I think there's some things that we can do there. Again, Chairman, that was a good lead in that that can help us deal with them, in general, with these -- some of these tough issues that we're trying to deal with. But just a couple of examples here, in terms of the existing ordinance and challenges we have. Notice requirements in Section 2.01, which deals with rezonings. Under the Section C hearings, that's where we find the notice provisions that go with rezonings and specifies a 15-day notice. In section 202-D, under commission actions and findings, that's where we find that paragraph that deals with notice requirements. And it says, "After proper advertising", but doesn't tell us what the proper advertising is. So again, we have, you know, if you're going to look and try to find what's the notice provisions, there's consistent place to go and look at it. So by going through the whole ordinance, I have been through the whole ordinance and actually drafted all the changes, at least as a first blush. One of things I've done is being able to organize each section so they follow the same pattern. So I know I can go to the same section, each one to find the notice provisions. I don't have to guess where it's going to be. And then, also make sure they're all consistent in what those notice requirements are. So again, Section 2.02 deals with the special use permits. You have in your packet the details of the changes that are being proposed. So here's just a, kind of, a quick overview. Section 2.02-A provides a purpose for the special use permit. So there's no changes proposed to that particular section. Section 2.02-B, currently, is some general regulations to keep the format the same. And all the other Section B's, I'm laying out the application procedures and requirements. So I'm switching that in this case, so that 2.02-B is application requirements. And so it will TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 51 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 51 of 62 be changing that, so it reflects our current electronic provisions, rather than the way it's currently worded that's paper-type of requirements, provide a little bit more detail on the information that is required with your application. Currently, the wording for special use permits is that, if the zoning administrator thinks a site plan is helpful, he can require it, which we typically do at some level. So adjusting the wording to say a site plan is required. But then, the zoning administrator can, kind of, adjust that down, if there's not as need for as much detail as might be in other cases. But we start off with a site plan being required, and then, moved a couple of other pieces of information into this section. Then Section 2.02-C review, is mostly a new section, again, will be consistent throughout the different sections of this chapter, but provides an overview of the -- the process that an applicant goes through to get the review from the staff initial review to see if it -- all the -- the requirements have been met, and then, the kind of that back and forth and setting it up then for the actual hearing process. And then, 2.02-D lays out the notice requirements. And so we included the -- the things that are in the current ordinance, but expanded upon it a little bit. In practice, we always advertise special use permits just like we do rezonings with a sign posting, mailed notice, and newspaper. It doesn't say that we have to do that in the Code currently, but we're going to update the Code so it says that to -- to make sure we're providing the public with good notice for special use permits, because this town does operate a lot on special use permits. We see a lot of those. We want to make sure people have the opportunity to know about them as best as we can. Then, Section 2.02-E will be hearings. So it lays out that process we go through for the hearings here and at the Town Council. This section is mostly new. And it provides an overview of what that -- that would be, tells who can appear, establishes some time limits, allows the -- the body involved to request some investigations into the topic, and then, for the summary, the basic of the minutes, and the action that's taken. 2.02-F then, describes action that can be taken. Again, it's mostly the same as existing sections 2.02-D and E, but with some -- some minor modifications. One current provision in there is that the maximum length of continuance is 60 days. Generally, that's not a problem. But we have had a couple of cases where that has been a challenge, because the time it can take to go back and forth with the applicant, and write the report, TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 52 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 52 of 62 get back on. So I don't know if we're kind of looking for the Commission direction on here. Do we want to keep that 60 day? That's a benefit to the applicant. They know they're not just left hanging out there forever. It's somewhat to the public, because I know it's going to get resolved. And they too aren't just, you know, when's this ever going to end. But it can be a constraint when there are needs to investigate a topic, and you know, delve into it a little bit deeper. You don't have to answer this right now, unless somebody has some feelings on that. But I am looking at the possibility of removing that provision or lengthening it out to 90 days or something. DEMPSTER: Is there an opportunity to request an extension? WESLEY: The way the Code is currently written, no. DEMPSTER: No? Okay. WESLEY: 60 days is the maximum. DEMPSTER: Thank you. GRAY: Yeah. I'm along the same lines as Commissioner Dempster. I think the 60 has helped keep us on track more than it has been an impedance. But then again, I don't see it from the same angle you do. So you know, if we could layer in language that allowed for continuance. And frankly, I'd even be fine with continuance. It's mutually agreeable between administrator and applicant. It doesn't -- WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: I don't see how that impacts us in any way. WESLEY: Okay. I'll look at maybe some alternate language on that piece. So the next piece that we're adding in here, that I think gets back to the -- some of your comments a moment ago, Chairman Gray, is that here's where we can add some of the requirements for what you look at for taking action. One of which that we have proposed is to add this Good Neighbor Policy in there, so that for any special use permit, we can require them to give us these details on how they are going to interact with their neighbors, give us some of the information we were just talking about with regard to the detox facilities and so forth, but would be there for any type of use. GRAY: And I totally concur with that. And the only thing that I -- not the challenge, but the enhancement on that, I guess, would be to write that in a way that -- that that's an essential part of the deliberation, and not less suggestive, more mandatory in order to pass TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 53 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 53 of 62 through the special use permit process, if that makes sense or not. WESLEY: Yes. I think so. Let me see -- turn here real quick to that section and see exactly how it was worded. So right now it says, "The Commission may make recommendations to the Town Council and include a Good Neighbor Policy." So it, again, leaves an opening. You don't necessarily need it in every case. But you probably will want it in a lot of cases. So there may be a way to write that, so it does make it a little bit more mandatory. I can look at that. GRAY: Yeah. So that it's more than a box tick, it's actually of substance and weighted. And your overall decision-making -- WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: -- or recommendation. WESLEY: Okay. I'll see if there's a way to do that. And then, the last one is currently it requires -- there's a requirement that special use permits get to Town Council eight days after -- well, Commission action, well, that really never happens. There's more time than that between the -- the meetings. So I'll just remove it. We always process them in an expeditious way. We don't just let them sit. The next, in 2.02-G sets time limits. It's the same as the current 2.02-F. Yeah? GRAY: Can you go back one slide -- WESLEY: Yes. GRAY: -- just for a second? Do we have the opposite in there where there's a cap on the amount of time that something can sit, so that it couldn't inadvertently be deferred on the Council agenda? You know, is there a -- is there -- is there a 60-day cap on the amount of time between a commission and council agendaized -- agendaized, that's not a word, or do we need to look at that kind of safety mechanism? WESLEY: We could. Again, that's what this was meant to do, is make sure it gets to Council as quickly as possible. And if we take this out, there's nothing, no cap on it, so it could sit. I'll have to think that through a little bit. While we could put -- maybe it's a 30- day or a 60-day, again, to make sure it happens. But it can fit with, you know, whatever the -- you know, it's one of the challenges you run into the summer break. If we -- PNC approves a special use permit in June and -- and Council doesn't meet until the end of August, then you've got, you know, however long that is before it's got to get there. And TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 54 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 54 of 62 so we'd have to probably take that. GRAY: Maybe just leave it as, not necessarily heard, but on -- on the agenda, you know, on the -- on the docket, so to speak, so that they know when it's -- when it's going to be heard. WESLEY: Um-hum. Yeah. The other part of that is that the mayor technically sets the agenda. And we don't necessarily want to force the mayor into this. So anyway, we'll look at it and see. Right now I just took it out, because eight-day was definitely too short. We can see if there's something reasonable to put back in. Okay. Time limits. So right now we have a six-month -- six-month, right? GRAY: Um-hum. WESLEY: Six-month time limit that you have to secure a building permit after you approve a special use permit. That's usually a challenge. We're usually back extending the -- the special use permit at least once, sometimes twice. Maybe that's a good thing still, though, to kind of keep them moving. But maybe it'd be better to have that extended out a little bit longer than 60 days. You definitely want a time limit, because you don't want people doing too much of a speculative thing. You don't want conditions to change too much, but. GRAY: Yeah. Maybe you just change that to application opened. WESLEY: Apply for -- GRAY: 60 days, especially now. 60 days is -- WESLEY: It's at six months. GRAY: -- or six months. Sorry. WESLEY: Six months, yeah. Maybe six months for application of a building permit and a year -- GRAY: Yeah, I would be -- WESLEY: -- to get it approved or something along that line? GRAY: What do you think, Dan? KOVACEVIC: It's still taking a long -- it's taking a long time to get plans and stuff and all of that stuff. GRAY: Yeah. I mean -- KOVACEVIC: If you -- that's where you run into the problem now. You can't turn that TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 55 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 55 of 62 stuff around as quick as you could five years ago. GRAY: Yeah. Yeah. I'd at least flip it to application, not permit in hand. WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: That removes some of that administrative burden on -- on staff. But I'm not opposed to extending it either. WESLEY: Okay. All right. We'll see what we can come up with on that then. Then, 2.02-H, revocation is the same. And the 2.02-I was a 2.02-B, just moved it down. And the other thing that -- that I wanted to accomplish with this is to add something in. And so 202-J is modifications and amendments. We have no direction in the current Code about what to do, if somebody wants to amend or modify an SUP after it gets approved. And so you know, out of that section there, and divided into the three parts, a minor modification, anything that doesn't materially, you know, change what was approved. I've tried to think of good examples. And everyone I could, kind of, come up with was maybe a good example, but it was too easy to also find a loophole, then, and why it might not be a minor. And so I'm a little bit hesitant to name something. But it'd be something, again, pretty minor. But if we don't consider it a minor, or if it is actually changes specific condition of approval, then it would be considered a major modification and come back through the same public hearing process, or it's an actual amendment, we're going to change from this use to this use. So they're really amending it. Then that obviously comes back through the public hearing process. So that's what we have in the Code, as far as an amendment to that particular section. And again, one of the reasons I want to keep at least this section moving fairly quickly is, as it ties into the discussion we just had on the detox centers, because those -- if we proceed down the route we're talking about, they will probably require a special use permit. And so having our tools cleaned up on how we process special use permits, and some of the additional things that we can require with those special use permits, I think would be helpful. GRAY: Okay. I'll run it the other way. Commissioner Watts? WATTS: I think, John, that in -- in light of the timing issues, the owner, it seems to be most of the time on the contractor or the applicant. But I don't think there's any time constraints in Item C on staff. And should there be? You know, I hear a lot of frustration from contractors about how long it takes to get things done. You've addressed it in the TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 56 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 56 of 62 six-month, getting the building permit, and that's a combination of the contractors and staff. But should there be something that was more specific about, what's the turnaround time once the application is complete, not to get the application complete, -- WESLEY: Right. WATTS: -- but once it is complete? WESLEY: So you suggest we should add something in here to keep it moving? WATTS: I do. I think -- WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: -- if I was applying, I would say, what's my expectation? Do I get -- do I need to have everything? Can I get everything done by staff in 30 days? Is that reasonable after I complete my part? But I'd like, you know, a dead-end and something about -- for the contractors. WESLEY: Sure. Chairman, Commissioner, we can look to see if there's something we feel comfortable putting in here. We do have our standard review processing schedule that's posted. And we review with applicants when they come in and -- and show. That's usually about a two to three-month time frame from when they apply, until we get to the commission hearing. And we also have, through a state statute, a published maximum turnaround time for any application that we have to follow. And so that's -- that's already out there. That's very general and very long, though. WATTS: Yeah. I think, if we're putting pen to paper on everything else with timelines on it, then it's fair to put the same thing. And the other thing is that it's a personal comment. I went through and read all of the bullet points. I highlighted all of them. Then got the revisions and they were all taken care of. So I only ended up with one. WESLEY: Oh, very good. WATTS: It was the wrong order from my perspective, anyway. So just a comment. WESLEY: Okay. WATTS: Thank you. WESLEY: Um-hum. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic? KOVACEVIC: I have nothing else. GRAY: Commissioner Schlossberg? TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 57 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 57 of 62 SCHLOSSBERG: Nothing from me. GRAY: Commissioner Dempster? DEMPSTER: I'm good. GRAY: Commissioner Corey? COREY: Just a quick question. The Good Neighbor Policy, is that like -- is that a policy documented somewhere? I couldn't find it. WESLEY: No, it's just a title that it gets used. I've seen it in other codes. You know, I -- I was thinking about that a little bit as I was, kind of, preparing for this meeting. It may need -- benefit from a little bit more definition. COREY: Um-hum. WESLEY: About what we mean by that. A good policy, a good neighbor statement, anyway, are meant to describe, here's the things we are going to do as the operator of this business to make sure we are -- are a good neighbor and address any concerns that may come up -- COREY: Um-hum. WESLEY: -- because of the use that we're -- we're putting in. COREY: So maybe having something a little bit more formal around that? WESLEY: Right. COREY: Yeah. Okay. I think that would be a good idea, yeah. Okay. WESLEY: It could be similar to what we did with the citizen participation ordinance, -- COREY: Um-hum. WESLEY: -- where we have a separate guide that we could get people to say, okay, if you need to do a Good Neighbor Policy, follow this. This is going to tell you what you need to put in there. But you put too many things in Code, then it becomes too rigid. So there's a balance there. COREY: Okay. Thanks. GRAY: Commissioner Dapaah? Okay. John, I -- just to pick up on Commissioner Watts' -- and maybe it's as simple as referencing ARS such and such for the -- for the maximum timetables, or? WESLEY: Yeah, maybe. That's for Fountain Hills. Everything is a 90-day administrative review and 180-day substantive review, for a total of 270 working days. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 58 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 58 of 62 They're quite long. And that way we know we're always within them, but. GRAY: Commissioner Watts' applications are always pristine, so. WESLEY: Oh, yeah. GRAY: -- he wants them faster. Anywhere we can interject -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That brings up one more comment, though, before, seeing as how you say they're pristine. What do you do about -- is it mandatory that everything be done online as far as an application? WESLEY: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What about people that still have old flip phones and you can't do it? Do you have a process that says, you can fill out a paper form, and then, somebody on staff can enter that electronically, if somebody isn't computer literate, or is it just too bad? COREY: We have a library. WESLEY: So if we could get the microphones turned off and the TV turned off, I'll answer your question, so no. Yeah, they're all electronic. But we do have -- we do have some of our citizens that are challenged with doing that. And so we help people get them in if they need it, yeah. GRAY: Commissioner Kovacevic wanted to ask about a roundabout provision. Just kidding. All right. Is that -- WESLEY: That's it for my presentation. GRAY: Okay. Are you good with the feedback you've received? WESLEY: Yes, that was helpful. GRAY: Very good. WESLEY: We'll look at tweaking that. And so I guess my -- my last piece on it, though, would be, I don't know what your sense is of the public interest in input that we'll see next month, compared to what we had when we talked about the sober living homes back in January, February, whenever that was, do you think we could also have this item on that agenda next month? GRAY: I would think so. WESLEY: Okay. GRAY: I don't think it's going to be nearly the -- the output of the -- the residence TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 59 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 59 of 62 component. WESLEY: Okay. Okay. GRAY: So. And frankly, if it's just those three, I'd be fine tabling the next agenda item -- WESLEY: Yeah. That's fine. GRAY: -- as well. WESLEY: We've been -- we've been a while on that. GRAY: Any informal objection, Commissioners? WESLEY: I think you may have a speaker card. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Yes. GRAY: Oh, sorry. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Yes, we do. GRAY: Sorry, sorry, sorry. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: That's okay. Larry Meyers. GRAY: I should've guessed, huh? MEYERS: Yeah, that's right. So forget it, I'm not repeating it again. I have a question more than anything else. And does this comment belong in this discussion, and that would be very quickly. One of the things that has been discussed and probably maybe one of the abuses of the SUP process in this town is not whether John and his people get stuff done. It's you grant an SUP. And it never gets developed. And it sits there and has no expiration date. Does that belong in this conversation? Because if it does, I would expire it. Does it expire? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. If they don't get a building permit, then it's six months. MEYERS: Well, okay, suppose they get the building permit, and then, they don't put a shovel in the ground? UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Let me double-check. I think so. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Inspection every six months, if they're required, but. MEYERS: That -- that -- anyway, that's my -- my comment, because we have multiple SUPs floating around out there and no buildings going up. And I'm sure they've got building permits. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 60 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 60 of 62 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's what we'd assume. But that's actually -- well, we'll and make sure. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Okay. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's the idea. MEYERS: -- about applying for a job. GRAY: Any other speaker cards? Thank you. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: No. GRAY: All right. We are going to table Agenda Item 8. Let's move to 9, commission discussions, requests for research to staff. John, I'd just like to go all the way back to the beginning and just formalize from the call to the public. Ms. Bell referenced a House Bill 2389. And I just wanted to make sure that we've -- we've got that on the radar as something to track. WESLEY: Yes and no. Let me go back and see here. What section of the Code do I want? 5. So Commissioners, the -- the ordinance that we typically refer to as the noise ordinance is not in the zoning ordinance. It's another part of the Town Code. And so those -- that doesn't come to this commission -- GRAY: Okay. WESLEY: -- for review. There is a provision in, I think, it's in 5, yeah, 5.19, that's the pullout the does relate to it. So there is that connection to the zoning ordinance. And what we have is, I think, out of date, because it was -- it wasn't updated when the last update was done in the Town Code. But that -- that may be something we'll -- we'll want to look at again. I encouraged Ms. Bell to make another trip to the Town Council and bring that up with them, see if they want to state it again. GRAY: I'm not sure she said no. WESLEY: She said she appreciated the opportunity to get the dress rehearsal here. And she's looking forward to the opportunity. GRAY: Yeah. WESLEY: She can't hear me. GRAY: You notice how he gets a little quiet when he's specifically referencing you, right? BELL: Always. It's so far back, it infuriates. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 61 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 61 of 62 GRAY: Commissioners, any other requests for research? All right. Number 10, the inverse. WESLEY: All right. So I think you gave me a lot of good things this evening to work on. Farhad and myself, I guess, both got some -- some work to get done for your October meeting. GRAY: Okay. The October meeting would be -- WESLEY: Woops. GRAY: October -- WESLEY: 10th. GRAY: -- 10th. WESLEY: Yeah. GRAY: I may be a dial-in for that meeting, just heads up. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: I think that's fall break, so I might be as well. GRAY: I'll certainly attend, but. WESLEY: Okay. Let's see if we can find out some of those possible conflicts soon, because we could potentially then maybe move it. GRAY: The 10th? PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Yeah. GRAY: I don't know. That was 1492. It was a long time ago. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's the fall break. I will simply not be here, if I can call in too? GRAY: I don't know if the 3rd of October is an option, but that I am sure works for me. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: John, October 10th is Columbus Day, so I don't -- are you guys working? WESLEY: Yes. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: Yes? Okay. GRAY: Let's not do a public engagement session on a holiday when people are home with kids and whatnot. That may not go over very well. WESLEY: Right. GRAY: In fact, I think we did our last one on a -- we did something. WESLEY: Valentine's Day. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS Page 62 of 62 SEPTEMBER 12, 2022 PLANNING AND ZONING COMMISSION MEETING Page 62 of 62 GRAY: We got yelled at. I remember that. WESLEY: Valentine's Day. Which Scott is very -- WESLEY: Still paying the price. GRAY: -- pro Valentine's Day. He was very upset that night. WESLEY: Okay. We'll look at that date. GRAY: What was the 3rd, if we want to stay on a Monday? WESLEY: Yeah. We'll get -- we'll look at it and get back with you. GRAY: Okay. Number 11 report? WESLEY: Nothing to add. GRAY: Number 12? Adjourned. Thank you, guys. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. WESLEY: Thank you, Angela. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yeah. Thank you. PADGETT-ESPIRITU: You're welcome.