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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2023.1102.TCWS-Retreat.MinutesTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE WORK SESSION COUNCIL RETREAT MEETING OF THE FOUNTAIN HILLS TOWN COUNCIL NOVEMBER 2, 2023 A Work Session — Council Retreat Meeting of the Fountain Hills Town Council was convened at 16705 E. Avenue of the Fountains in open and public session at 9:00 a.m. Members Present: Mayor Ginny Dickey: Vice Mayor Sharron Grzybowski; Councilmember Gerry Friedel; Councilmember Peggy McMahon; Councilmember Brenda J. Kalivianakis; Councilmember Hannah Toth; Appeared Telephonically: Councilmember Allen Skillicorn Staff Present: Town Manager Rachael Goodwin; Town Attorney Aaron D. Arnson; Town Clerk Linda Mendenhall Audience: Approximately twenty-one members of the public were present. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT Post -Production File Town of Fountain Hills Work Session - Council Retreat November 2, 2023 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. Page 1 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT MAYOR DICKEY: Good morning, everyone. Rachael said we have to get going. So we're starting. I'm calling this wonderful work study session -- I'm very happy to see you all here -- to order. And could we have a roll call, please? MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey? MAYOR DICKEY: Here. MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Present. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? FRIEDEL: Here. MENDENHALL: Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: Here. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Here. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Toth? TOTH: Here. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: Present on the phone. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. So with these retreats, a lot of times the manager sort of takes the lead and I am going to gladly do that this time. So Rachael, are we just going to go straight down the agenda? GOODWIN: We are. That's our plan this morning. Before we jump in -- yes, we do have a tight timeline this morning. I'm trying to be very mindful of that. I appreciate everyone's time this morning, both staff and council being here to go through this with us. This is a first time to do a -- we're calling it sort of a pre -budget. This is going to help us, as staff, understand priorities and make sure that we're investing our time and efforts in places that are the most meaningful. So that when we come back in February with the proposed budget, it has items that are -- again, that have legs, that have the support of the council. ��� Page 2 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT So this is just to give direction today. Again, this is not voting. This is not a yes or -- a definite yes or a definite no. This is about direction about things you would like to see in the budget or things that you think probably aren't worth the time and effort for staff to research and rundown. It's about allocating our time and resources. So we're going to jump in. I sent out a kind of a schedule yesterday. We're going to move through the first couple of ones pretty quickly. We're just looking for consensus of, yes, you'd like to see it or no, we're going to take a pass. So we'll kick off with the Adero Canyon Trailhead parking lot expansion. Kevin Snipes and Justin Weldy are going to speak to that. SNIPES: All right. Good morning, Mayor and Council. It's good to see everybody this morning. So this is our first one today we've had since 2018 when we opened Adero Canyon. It's obviously been a huge success. We've had lots of hikers and there's been some periods of times when we've heard that the parking lot has been full. We are currently working on doing some counts to see exactly how many times and for how long that actually occurs. It was requested that we start planning for expansion if we so decide to do that. This is the original option that was scheduled for phase two. It is about twenty extra spaces and it's above where the parking lot is currently, which would require a fair amount of cut to get it down to a level that we could actually put the parking lot in, kind of like the original one did. I think the original one we dropped 19 feet to make the parking lot. So it was as sloped as it is. Which is not anywhere close to flat. So this is option one. Staff looked at another option, which is at the base of the entrance, and it cuts straight out from where the cul de sac is there at the main entrance. This provides about 12 extra parking spaces but would be considerably less expensive to do. And it is the preferred staff option, mostly because of -- it's a preserve and the more we cut into the preserve, the more we feel like we're not preserving the preserve. So that's our thoughts on this. With that, I can take any questions that you may have. Page 3 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT MAYOR DICKEY: Questions or comments? Councilwoman -- SKILLICORN: Madam Mayor? MAYOR DICKEY: Vice mayor. Vice mayor was up first. Thanks. GRZYBOWSKI: I would be interested in seeing actually where our counts go, because I was talking to the MMPC chair. And one of the things he's not convinced that we actually have proven that we have a need. That being said, I do appreciate the new plan that you've got pictured here. Because of the topography, plan B seems like it would be less expensive than Plan A. But without knowing the numbers about how often that lot is full, I don't know that this is money that I'd want to spend. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Councilman Friedel and then Councilmember Skillicorn. FRIEDEL: Thank you. I like option 2 myself as well, less invasive. In the short-term, though, I think at one point we talked about covering the meters or the no parking signs that are there. Has that helped at all? Do we know or is it too early to tell yet? SNIPES: So what ended up, as we looked at the width of the road, it was determined that the road wasn't wide enough for us to allow parking on the sides. So we were not able to cover those signs and make it so that they could actually park down through there. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: Thank you, Madam Mayor. So considering this, I think Adero Canyon is a beautiful resource, and I hate the idea of another parking lot ruining that beautiful resource. That's really a problem I have with the esthetics and just ruining the natural beauty that's already there. The second part is, is that I'd much rather have this money go towards roads. And I'd like to defer this type of spending and spend it on roads. And then the third point, which is more of a general, is that last year, through the budget process, we have like 20 or 25 projects. And frankly, we were still above our spending cap even when we cut those projects down. I felt that all those projects were just like a dog and pony show and wasn't realistic of what we would like to do. So the idea of all these projects, I think, is more than we can bite off. We have a serious deficit that we need to pay off Page 4 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT with the roads. And I really think roads and infrastructure have to be a priority over these things that are nice to have but are not needs. And that's all I have on this. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah. I'd like to concur with our vice mayor on this. I'm concerned with the numbers. I just don't think we're ready right now to spend this kind of money, when all we really have is anecdotal evidence of, I went there last Sunday and it seemed kind of full. We have to have better information than that to spend the taxpayers money. And so yeah, I would be a pass on this. I'm not completely averse to in the future looking into it, but I don't think we're ready. MCMAHON: Thank you, Mayor. How long would it take you to do a study of the parking, how full it is, et cetera, how busy? We are coming into the busy season. It's in the cusp of changing with a lot more people coming into town, the weather. So right now, I don't know that the parking would be representative of the more popular months to be up there in hike, et cetera. So would it be difficult to spend some time taking a look at it, seeing when it's full, keeping an eye on that? And if and when we do this, I prefer the less intrusive parking structure versus the higher one up because like you said, it's our obligation as stewards of that property to preserve it. And I think that would just really take way too much out of that hillside and while people hike. So thank you. I appreciate it. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? TOTH: I would agree that out of the two, if we're doing something, I would prefer option 2. It's less intrusive. It's cheaper. Sounds like a plan to me. I agree with preserving the preserve, of course. But I do want to kind of echo what the vice mayor mentioned, which is I would really like to see if the numbers52 really do call for the project. And maybe it's something to look at in the future rather than this next budget year. SNIPES: Yeah. And I think that's kind of the consensus with staff as well and the MMPC, who we've been talking about this for the last couple of years. And we have some new 3.1 Page 5 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT counters in that we're going to be getting some better data to see exactly where it's at. Then the other thing that we need to think about as well is if the parking lot is full and we keep adding on parking lots and letting those get full, now how many hikers do we have in the preserve? So there's several things to think about with this. We just wanted to make sure that -- it's been brought up several times from several different people around town. And so we came up with our best bet when and if that time comes. At some point, you're not going to want to have any more hikers out there than what there is already, because otherwise it's just people parading and you're not going to get to enjoy it as much as you would if there was less hikers out there, I think. MAYOR DICKEY: I think what happens if someone comes now and doesn't find a parking space? Where do they go? Because I've never been there when it was full. Do they just drive around and go back down towards Copperwynd and park on the street? SNIPES: Yes. MAYOR DICKEY: Is there any directional stuff we can do to help with that -- SNIPES: There is. MAYOR DICKEY: -- or overflow park or something like that? SNIPES: There's a few spots in the cul de sac there where they can park. And then once those get full, then it becomes quite a ways down the hill and/or they could go to the Adero and there's a bus that they run up and back I know but I don't know if that's available to the public, do you? GOODWIN: I believe that they do offer it for the public. But again, it's sort of when there's availability or oh, we're going to run it every 30 minutes or -- again, it's not always a convenience factor, especially if you were raring to go and trying to get out, you know, out and back before it gets hot or whatever else, then you're on someone else's timetable. From what I understand and this is anecdotal, most people circle waiting for a spot. The question is, is how long do they have to wait? Is it a ten-minute wait? Is it a half -an - hour wait? And we're working with our different volunteer groups to try to carpool and do other things to try to maximize parking up there. But Kevin's right, we've heard this Page 6 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT multiple times. It does crop up during the high season. As Councilmember McMahon mentioned, we're getting ready to be there. It sounds like more data is necessary before we decide to move down this path, which I think is just fine. So at this point, if and when we're ready to say we have the data that backs it up, it sounds like option B, the lower lot would be preferred, but we're probably not there yet. Does that sound right? MAYOR DICKEY: Yep. MCMAHON: Thank you, Mayor. I have a question about the budget. This wouldn't come out of the streets funds? This would be set as a singular item? SNIPES: Yeah. It would be a capital improvement item. MCMAHON: Okay. Thank you very much. MAYOR DICKEY: So the other thing would just be if, in the interim, we had signs or something like that. It's funny because obviously, when it first opened, we couldn't get close. So we all parked down there and then walked all the way up there. So we were hiking anyway. So yeah, I think we'll put this one off. Sounds good. SNIPES: All right. So I have the next one as well. The next one is the Four Peaks pickleball expansion. So this is one where we built the first pickleball courts for the town that are town -owned, that are open to the public. We did that in 2021. They have been a huge success since then. They're regularly full. We've done -- let's see, we've had 344 people registered this year. It's brought in over $13,000 in revenue and we haven't been doing this for the entire year. So it's been pulling in decent money for revenue for classes and clinics that we've been running. The leagues have been full. The last time we opened up, within 40 minutes, it was completely booked solid and we had 123 participants that were unable to join because they got in too late. So there's certainly a need. Currently the only other pickleball courts that are in town are the nine that are at the high school, which are not town -owned or maintained or anything else. So they control them and how they get used. It's primarily their club that uses it. I think it's open one day a week for a few hours for the general public. But outside of that, Page 7 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT those are used all the time. And with the reorg of the high schools, we don't know for sure how that's all going to pan out either. When we built these courts, we did plan for the availability to put in three more courts right next to where it's at. You can see there in the blue square. And we think this would be a great location for it. And it it'll certainly get plenty of use. MAYOR DICKEY: thank you. SNIPES: With that, I'll take any questions that you have. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman Toth? TOTH: Thank you, Madam Mayor. I just wanted to add a little anecdotal note. We have a volunteer at the chamber in my little bit of time at the reception desk, that was one of the people that had to be on the waitlist. The last registration. And I had no idea how popular pickleball is. I know people that like it, but oh my goodness, it is very, very popular. We have so many people that want to play and aren't able to right now because the courts get filled up so much. So I think three more courts is reasonable. And then once the trend dies down, we probably won't have that waitlist anymore. And we'll have enough courts to keep the people that love the sport. That was just my little note of I know from kind of personal experience that people are very much wanting these. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? MCMAHON: Thank you very much. I'm all for this. It's an amazing retirement sport for a lot of people and they really, really enjoy it. However, do you have any idea what the cost would be? An estimate? SNIPES: If I'm betting it's somewhere -- I'm guessing it will be below 150. I think the last time we did it, it was about 110. MCMAHON: Okay. SNIPES: So that's what I'm basing that off of. MCMAHON: Can we make it indoor? I'm teasing. MAYOR DICKEY: That's a different question. SNIPES: That's a different number. But yeah, we absolutely can. Page 8 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. Now the indoor seed has been planted and we're going to get all sorts of emails now. Thanks, Peggy. I think it's great. It's one of the things that we hear about a lot: that we need more, we don't have enough. And I guarantee you we build three more and we will get complaints that we need more and we don't have enough. So I'm all for it. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Two questions. Is this affected at all by our decision on the Four Peaks School? This is just separate, right? SNIPES: No, this is totally separate. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. And is there any way to do noise abatement on any of these outdoor courts? SNIPES: There's certainly -- as more and more pickleball courts have gone in around the US, that's been one of the things that is constantly brought up. So there there's some different types of screening that can be put up on the fence to try and help with that a little bit. There's different surfaces, but a lot of those surfaces aren't as playable as the tennis type surface is. But we'll certainly look into that as we're building, because as the sport is the fastest growing sport in the US, it makes it to where there's a whole lot of new inventions that are coming out as well. So we'll keep an eye on that and whatever we can do to help mitigate, we will. MAYOR DICKEY: Thanks. Councilwoman Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. I'll keep an open mind on this, but until we find out what the costs are, I can't say whether I'm for it or not. I'd like to drive a Ferrari until I find out they're $3 million, and then I'm like, well, maybe I'll pass. SNIPES: Sure. KALIVIANAKIS: And so I'll keep an open mind. But we need to get the figures. SNIPES: Yeah. And that's kind of the whole point today is just to see if you're interested. We'll come back with the numbers and then see if we're still interested. And if we're not, then we're not. And that's fine. MAYOR DICKEY: It looks like that one is something that we want to go ahead with. SKILLICORN: Madam Mayor? Page 9 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT MAYOR DICKEY: Oh, Councilman? Sorry. SKILLICORN: Yeah. This will be a recurring theme, is that I would prefer this money to be spent on roads. And that just has to be a priority with that extreme deficit that we've been left with for the past six years on roads. MAYOR DICKEY: So our next item is -- let's see who's taking that? Linda. MENDENHALL: I just need a little assistance from Ms. Amanda. So today I'm going to talk to you about the electronic vote system software and ask for your feedback and direction. All right. Let's see. So electronic voting software can be simple and it can be or it can be as robust as you would like it to be a meeting management tool. One of the things that I've noticed when we're doing our meetings, that we have -- I get a lot of questions about people's votes. And so this is a way to solve that problem. We also have an opportunity to solve an issue with, sometimes you need a little more time to think about your vote. This system would allow you to do that. Right now, I currently rotate the vote, so not everybody's first, but this would eliminate me needing to do that as well. Some people use vote system software for meeting management. They use it for -- well, everybody use it for capturing it for the permanent record, but they also use it for their public speaking process. They use it for streaming and integrating it with their video streaming system. We're basically leveraging technology to simplify and modernize an important process. Now, I've used voting system software in the past, and just for the purposes of this presentation, that's what you're going to see on the screen. So this is the clerk's view. And in order for this system to run, I have to initiate it, I have to put information into the system and to launch the voting system. You can either do this manually or you can do it -- it will integrate with your agenda management system. So when you see up in the upper left-hand corner, that's your agenda that shows what's on consent, what's your regular items, you can move things from consent to the regular item. I take the roll call. I implement that information. Your names are on the dais, just as you're seated there and then it shows who does the first and second. So I see this, Page 10 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT and once those votes are captured, once we capture the motions, then I set it for voting. All this information, I can download it and preserve it for the permanent record. You also see up in the upper right hand corner, that's the speakers. So you don't have to use that. But I can set it up where when people come and public speak, the three - minute timer. So that's what my system looks like. The next view is your view. And using the software this would be -- you see your agenda. You can also switch to, let's say you want to go to your website for some reason, you would have that opportunity because it's all integrated. And then on the lower left-hand, that's where you vote. But you also see what the agenda item is that you're voting on. What I would do is, in addition to the title of the agenda, I would put what the motion is so you don't even have to fumble through the agenda packet to find the motion. That would also display for the public. But you also see who the speakers are. You don't have to use that, it's just a tool. There's so many things that you can do with this type of software. This is the audience view. And so this would help anyone who might be hearing impaired, they'll just be able to see it. They don't have to even listen to your vote. They would be able to see this on screen. And of course, this would show your names. This is customizable. It can be different fonts. We could even put our logo on here. But what shows up is your agenda item so the public knows what you're voting on. They know which item it is. Then first, what goes up is your motion. Who motioned, seconded the motion, and then once everybody votes -- so if you needed a little extra time to think about it, it won't even display until everybody's voted. And then the vote shows and then it shows how many voted yes, how many voted no, if anyone abstained. It also timestamps when that vote took place. Questions and directions? I need to know if you find that this system is something that's of value. Something that you would want me to pursue. Any questions? MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you very much. Any comments or questions? Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah. As somebody that makes motions Page 11 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT often, I'd like to dig into that a little bit. If I were to make a motion, would I type it in? Would you type it in? Could you explain how that works? MENDENHALL: Yes. So what happens is before the meeting, I go in and I implement this process. And what I'm going to put down is even your motion, so you don't have to even read it. You don't even have to fumble through the agenda packet. You'll see it up there on the screen and -- let's go back. So right over here in the middle where it says, "Agenda item", that's your agenda item. All you need to do is press yes or no. Or if you're motioning, you would press made motion. And then this would prohibit us from having multiple people, when they press, they say, I motion. If you're not first, you're not first. So it would make it easier and simpler for somebody to just have one motion. And I won't have to ask who was the person who first or who gave us a second. KALIVIANAKIS: But most motions are made from the floor, not in anticipation before the meeting. MENDENHALL: Well, it's just -- so think about your packet. In your packet, it shows what the motion is. So we've already outlined that. Let's see if you have a different motion then you would say I make a motion. It would be something that I would need to enter. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? MCMAHON: What about amendment, you know, modifications, et cetera? Right? MENDENHALL: Yes. MCMAHON: So what you'll be doing is typing that in as -- MENDENHALL: Right. MCMAHON: -- it goes, instead of having to go back to the record and look? MENDENHALL: Correct. MCMAHON: So to speak? Or ask Aaron to keep track of it? MENDENHALL: Yes. We would have to type that in as we're going along. MCMAHON: Okay. Page 12 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT MENDENHALL: Or if I didn't do it at that moment, I would have to take a note and then enter it. If I want to use this as a permanent record, then I need to keep that up. MCMAHON: Okay. MENDENHALL: Either we do it on the fly or we do it after the fact. But either way, it must be done because I'm very much a stickler for doing things the right way every single time. MCMAHON: So it sounds to me like this would be your -- I'm not going to say your preference, but this would be something that would be more manageable for you to keep track of votes, et cetera, and have them as a permanent record versus having people call you all the time and want about -- MENDENHALL: Correct. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilman? FRIEDEL: Linda, do we know what the cost is for this? MENDENHALL: I did not research the cost, but it -- with any system now most things are more expensive than they were. Even when I was looking at agenda management systems, I couldn't believe the increase from just when I purchased one four years ago. So what I would do is, if that I'm hearing that we want to look forward, that I would start soliciting different quotes. FRIEDEL: And the only other reservation I would have, I think, is it takes away the personal emotion and touch to the process. So that would be my concern. MAYOR DICKEY: Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: I like the -- we have a tendency to, whether it be make an amendment or do a different motion, I like the ability for you to type it in and we can see it written on the screen, whichever screen it ends up coming up on, we can see exactly what it is. Because there's been a number of times in the past three years where we've -- someone has made a motion which is not what was in writing. And we all kind of looked to Aaron and Aaron says, okay, here's what you just did. So I really like that because then you can see in writing what it is you're getting ready to vote for as opposed to everybody looking at each other, being a little bit hesitant. So I like that. Page 13 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT I also appreciate the fact that we all get to vote and everybody sees the vote at the same time. I've had a few council members in the past six or seven years that I've been coming to council meetings, I've had a few council members say, you know, it was so obvious that that person was holding out to wait and see what I said or wait and see whatever. So I feel like this takes that away. We should all be voting on what we feel we need to be voting on as opposed to what our neighbor is voting. So I like that concept a whole lot. I would be interested in finding the cost before I gave you a final approval, but just being familiar with software in general, I feel like this would be a great add for us. Thank you. MENDENHALL: I do want to add that some of the things that, if we do decide to move forward just to see what how much it would cost, we would try to look at how we can utilize the equipment that we already have. Because I'm one who really is a good steward, I believe, of the taxpayers' dollars. And so what I would want to be able to do is utilize some of the equipment that we already have. But at the same time, there's also -- what I would do is give you the cost using some of the stuff we have or upgrading to maybe touch screen monitors. That really works well with the touch screen. So just so you would know, I would give you some options how we can utilize the things that we already have or what we can do to make things a little better and how much that would cost. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. You know, again, just to kind of dig into this. Remember, amendments are motions. They're just motions to amend. And we do, on many nights, have multiple motions to amend. One of the most common complaints I hear about our town council meetings is they go too long. Then people lose their patience and they go home and they don't stay till the end. I can see this being a huge delay to our meetings that we're constantly ferreting out: what exactly did you say: how am I going to say that; how do you want this written? And so we're going to be spending so much time on the motions and motions to amend that our meetings are going to drag on. It's going to be not good for the public. Page 14 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT And also, this does seem to be a want -to -have and not a need -to -have item, and as Councilmember Skillicorn has already stated, you know we did have a priority on roads and other items. This seems like it's going to be expensive. It's going to slow down our meetings. And I just don't see the need for it this time. MAYOR DICKEY: As the person that's bringing this up, Linda, do you think it slows down the meetings or would eventually make it better? You're the one that would be operating everything. So how would you feel about it? MENDENHALL: I do think that on items where we do have the multiple, it will make it a little bit longer. If we want to do this so the residents can see what you're voting on, yes. I would say that that is absolutely going to happen. But for the items that -- you know, just your routine items, it's going to make it really simple. MAYOR DICKEY: The other thing about it is the -- and again, one of the things that Gerry was bringing up about personal and that, when you're when we talk -- when we discuss the items, that's when we can indicate if you're worried about whether you want to show that you're going to support. Because we've done that several times where somebody says, I'm going to be a no or I'm going to be a yes. So it doesn't really take that aspect entirely away. But if we don't do roll call votes for every meeting, for every single item, that might help with the timing, a little bit of that. But I just want to get back and I'II call on you, Hannah, for a second. But the idea of this meeting is to decide if we're just like, no way, no way. So I know we want to know how much things cost, but this is so that in February something isn't there with the costs and everything for us that we've already said, eh, like with the parking lot. So let's try to keep that in mind. Hannah? TOTH: Thank you, Mayor. I just wanted to kind of echo previous statements. But say I do want to see the cost. I like the transparency aspect of allowing people to know what we're voting on because some of these issues do get kind of convoluted. My one concern that I share with my fellow councilmember is if we're in a situation where a motion has been amended, we've kind of ended the discussion and that ability to Page 15 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT explain your vote. So would there still be a way to, even though we're voting electronically, would we just turn on our mic and say, hey, I'd like to explain my vote before it shows? Or how would that work? MENDENHALL: So what normally happens and we had this happen where I came from previously, they would just say it before the vote was taken and say why they're voting how they're voting. So it was never really done during the voting process. It would just be something we would have to determine how we want to do that. And it was determined there to do that before even the motions are made, if you want to make a statement. It was never during the voting process. MAYOR DICKEY: So yeah, because the motion stops the -- then we don't then we don't take public comment, but it doesn't stop us. So if somebody makes a motion -- and again, you can, as you're discussing, say, you know, so explaining your vote basically is what you can do at that point. So I think it doesn't take that opportunity away because we really never did this explaining your vote thing in that way anyway. That's kind of more of a legislative thing, but it just sort of has started to happen. But really explaining your vote, your vote happens during the discussion because you can kind of tell what everybody's thinking. So I don't think it takes away anything from that, and it would just be a matter of getting used to it. Like just looking at the screen right now, you're like, whoa, you know. But I think it's worth looking -- I think it's worth bringing it back to us. And again, you said this has all these other tools, we may not have to use every one of them. Maybe we don't want to do the motion one or something, and we do want to do that one verbally. So I think this is just -- on its simplest terms, we would just be voting in a different way. MENDENHALL: Right. But you would need to do the motion and the first and the second, because that's what sets the vote. So it would be just voting, but the motion, the first, and the second. And then this -- let's say the amended one, then we could do that separately. But I think that I know there's concerns about it making the meeting a little bit longer. If we were to go with this and we were to implement the motions and Page 16 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT so forth. But it takes time anyway because we're talking about it. So if we know right up front, we need to put that in the system, that might even save us some time. I know either way it's going to take some time, either on the front end or on the back end. But once you start working with the program, it gets a little easier. And maybe knowing that we have to display it for the public, we'll be really clear about what we're amending and so forth. GOODWIN: Okay. So what I'm hearing then is we have a few people that are interested in us at least looking into it. Again, reminder, this is not an approval to do it. This is not an approval for the budget. This is just, yes, Linda is going to get some costs together and we'll bring it back in February to decide whether you want to move forward or not. That's where we're at today. MENDENHALL: But either way, I will let you know even if you approve it and we buy it, it's going to be a learning curve for you because you're going to forget that you need to press your button. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. GOODWIN: Okay. Thanks, Linda. MAYOR DICKEY: Thanks so much. Our next item. I see Amanda coming up. GOODWIN: Yep. Moving right along, we have our economic development strategy implementation plan. So Amanda is going to present that for us. JACOBS: Good morning, Mayor and council. What a change from saying good evening. All right. So on September 6th, council approved the three-year Community Economic development strategy. Thank you very much. Since then, there's been a lot of excitement. We've had developers contact us on vacant land in the downtown. We've had a brand new developer approach us because a tenant is interested in Fountain Hills. We've had a of couple people inquire about state land. So just with that little nugget, people are ready to rock and roll. And so here today to just focus on the short-term priorities you should have received in your packet, the short-term, mid-term, long-term. Just want to check in, make sure Page 17 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT council is in alignment with staff on the short-term projects, and then want to engage in a little bit of dialogue of what we're seeing some of those short-term projects that may have a price tag and just see if we want to move forward. Business Attraction: I ask you to ignore the downtown strategy and downtown placemaking because there's a separate item, so we'll get to that. So Four Peaks Plaza, that is the Target Shopping center. As you all know, the property owner, again, after implementation of the strategy, reached out to staff and said, hey, want to move forward with rezoning the property and looking at a new sign package. Council was invited to meet. Majority were able to meet; get your questions answered. And so they're a little bit delayed just based off of feedback with our stakeholders wanting to get even further input from nearby neighbors. And so looking to bring that to the planning and zoning commission in December and bringing it to council the second meeting in January. Our development review process: Again, just wanting to elevate some of the wonderful things our development services department is doing. If we're not telling our story, somebody else is. And there are Tots of good efficiencies that have been gained, especially during COVID. Some of the electronic review and back and forth, but also take this time in talking with our developers and folks that are going through the development process of how can we gain even further efficiencies or for doing really good and turning things around within 20 days, can we push ourselves to speed it along in maybe 15 days? All that good stuff. Diversifying housing opportunities, which connects to Four Peaks Plaza. Council's already starting to do that with some of the properties off of Glenbrook. We'll skip to business retention. So business retention and expansion program, we will continue to evaluate that. And any trends we see that are policy related, we'll bring those to council. A shop local campaign, for the last, almost, couple of years since I've been here, I've only been here a year and a half. But looking at this, this summer period, we've been able to partner with the chamber on print media advertising to elevate the importance of shopping locally. Starting yesterday, we are working with Debbie Clason Page 18 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT on a holiday social media local campaign. We also will be starting new business welcome packets. So as we're hearing a businesses is opening, Betsy from the chamber and I will be handing them a packet, so a letter just welcoming them and then letting them know some of the free opportunities. And we had placed on hold last November but now that we've got direction regarding the sign code, we're also going to put an infographic together of the do and don'ts. Through the business retention site visits, folks have just said, Just tell us what we can and can't do. And so just try to make it clear as mustard. And then a second Thursday concept. Again, it's not necessarily a second Thursday, Mayor. It could be a first Friday, it could be a third Wednesday. But just that concept, looking at bringing people to the Avenue of the Fountains and having fun staying and shopping and dining in our stores. Marketing: Our economic development marketing plan. So looking and focusing at our targeted audiences, looking at industry infographics, and then an economic development marketing brochure. So that is more of a quality life piece letting know about demographics, our public safety, our quality parks and recreation. Looking at Kevin. And then looking at our brand messaging. And so we have a volunteer, one of our residents and business owners, helping us look at some people who are like the first line of defense are our real estate agents. And so starting there and just understanding what message is being put out, where are there consistencies, where do we need to pivot? So that is extremely important. And then last, tourism. Having a tourism marketing plan, looking at a new signature event. The town has been approached by a national event promoter interested in doing a musical festival or a culinary festival; we're still trying to get all the details. But because people are interested, want to elevate that. And then we're looking, starting with the Irish Fest. So again in March, really collaborating internally with our hotels. So again, trying to get people, giving them a reason why to stay here and so we can collect that bed tax and sales tax. MENINOMMIIIIIM Page 19 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT And then we've been working with the Dark Sky Association on a permanent stargazing location. We've provided an area -- I won't divulge that just yet. We want to give them an opportunity to see if that will work. Mayor, I would like to pause here before I go to the next slide just to check in. And are we good with these short-term priorities? Did you have the opportunity to look and have questions of, Amanda, why did staff think this is a mid-term or long-term or we're feeling pretty good? MAYOR DICKEY: I was going to ask you, are we going to look at the chart that you made up? Because I kind of went down that with a couple of comments. So does anybody want to do it that way with the matrix? MCMAHON: No. MAYOR DICKEY: No? JACOBS: Madam Mayor, I was not planning for that, to give that level of detail, but I have a hard copy. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Comments? Questions? Councilwoman? TOTH: Thank you for your work on this, Amanda. I am so excited to see the economic development strategy play out. I assume we're just going to end up going through -- so should I just give my little bullet points here? One note I want to give is -- and this is something just for everybody to store away in the back of your minds for the future, not something we probably would do this year. But I think we need to take a look at whether tourism and ECDEV should be the same department? I don't know how fair it is to you. I don't know how you feel about it, so I don't mean to jump that on you. But I think if we had an opportunity to lean into tourism or look at different options of how that's handled, I think that could be really beneficial. Just because you were so involved and wonderful with our business owners, and I want you focusing on that, and I wonder if tourism should be under your same department or if we should explore separating that or other options. When we talk about Four Peaks Plaza, I'm so excited to see whatever comes down the pipeline for that. I'm glad to see a short-term check mark on there. That's very exciting. Page 20 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT When we talk about a couple of our midterms, I did have questions on, which was ASU. So the partnering with ASU, could I ask why? And I'm incorrect. That was actually marked as a long-term. Could I ask why that is down as a long-term project? JACOBS: Yes, you can. Mayor, Councilmember Toth, so what we're hoping as staff and we've had one-on-one conversations with, again, a majority of you, is there some work we need to do on the frontend to really become viable to ASU? So again, I know -- again, when we want to look at the Dark Sky Discovery Center, there's some collaboration going on. The Dark Sky Discovery Center doesn't exist. Again, there's messaging out there that I don't necessarily agree with, though again, we're a bedroom community. There are no families. There's not young professionals. So there's some things that we need to work on in order for an ASU or other educational institution to really look at us. So that was the rationale behind that. MAYOR DICKEY: To your point, I would like that possibly moved up as well. I had that -- that was one of the ones that I looked at. I said university or other educational pursuits to ask to be moved up as part of the attraction strategy just overall, since education is an economic driver. Plus we have -- you could even put the school district in with that as far as celebrating our community and attracting families to come. And we've been saying this for years. We're probably not the kind where you're just going to have like general ed because we're not on the 202 or whatever, but we have so many niche sort of possibilities with geology, native lands, plants, and obviously astronomy. So history, art -- I think there are ways for us to try to incorporate that a little bit before long-term. So I agree with you on that. TOTH: Thank you, Madam Mayor. And just really quickly, thank you for that explanation, though, Amanda. Because that does make sense of wanting to make sure we have the reputation that makes them want to work with us. But I do want to see it moved up, if at all possible. I wonder how much this becomes a chicken or the egg question, right? Do we need to build up the reputation first? Do we need to work with them, and that's what builds up the reputation? And maybe that's a question to push that over to mid-term, maybe. Thank you. Page 21 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Councilwoman? TOTH: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah. You briefly touched on about developing the state trust land with the Arizona State Land Development. Could you elaborate on that a little bit? JACOBS: So Madam Mayor, Councilmember Kalivianakis, are you questioning why it's a long-term or -- KALIVIANAKIS: No. I just want to know where we're standing with -- what type of use? What is the conceptualization of where we're going with that state trust land? JACOBS: So we don't have all those details yet. So we're getting some inquiries. Why, it's a long-term? So Mr. Wesley and I have a lot of experience. I'm sure other folks, other colleagues, have worked with state land and it's a long process. And so that is part of this long-term solution. So we don't know yet about the use, Councilmember. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. So at this point, it's kind of just we wish it's going to happen, but we don't really have anything firm? JACOBS: Right. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. JACOBS: We have to start having those conversations and getting, again, that interest, talking to potential developers, working through the process. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. Okay. Because -- yeah, when I -- you said on the long-term, I was kind of excited. JACOBS: It was exciting. GOODWIN: Well, and I think for the purposes of today's conversation, where Amanda is going with this is, the items that she kind of identified as short-term, some of them have budget impacts. So the question is, is of the short -terms that she kind of outlined, are we comfortable with those and are we comfortable with moving forward with those and including those into the budget process? And I recognize that there's a lot of mid-term, long-term things that will be coming down the pike, too. But for today's conversation, we're focusing specifically on what do we want to see in next year's budget. Page 22 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT And so I don't know if you have -- I think that was kind of where you were going with your next steps. JACOBS: That is correct. Of doing just a check in and then we'll go to budget. So we good to -- oh, Councilmember? FRIEDEL: As long as we were on this. I was just going to mention that I think Four Peaks probably falls in more than just short-term. Because if we were looking at doing something with a strategic partner down there, as well as the development of that plaza, then it would fall more mid-term and long-term as well. JACOBS: So Mayor, Councilmember, we've put that as short-term and ongoing. So we're in total agreement. MAYOR DICKEY: And with state trust land too, I think one of the things that we have to establish is whether -- and Dave probably knows all about this, Dave Trimble, whether they are willing to split that up. But to be more specific, the idea that there are some resort zoning in that area and it kind of -- also we have the resort on Palisades and such. So I don't know if that becomes a little bit more not long-term. If we're talking about trying to attract any kind of resort, then we have to keep in mind not only Palisades, but that there is something there. And if something down the line it can be divided up, that's something to think about because that would be quite an area. But of course we know it's very cost prohibitive to do that. I had a question about shared spaces. So was that something that you would think we would want to do beyond what we have right now? I mean, I know that it's up and down a little bit about the successes of shared spaces that we had at, say, Four Peaks. And so I wondered what makes that a goal? JACOBS: And so Madam Mayor, you're talking about the coworking space? MAYOR DICKEY: Coworking. JACOBS: Okay. Just want to make sure we're on the same page. So last year when we were going through the BIZ HUB conversations, the entire staff got together and said not to move forward. Council did say that there was interest in doing some type of co - working space. And again, looking at BIZ HUB, I'm not sure if we want to get into that Page 23 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT now. Again, just trying to keep it high level or it'll come later on in the conversation. But it's not necessarily a co -working space. BIZ HUB was -- it was identified as an incubator accelerator, Wasn't really that either. Not sure, again, we want to get into those details. But based off of council feedback of liking a co -working space, we've been approached by numerous people in the community. The last budget cycle, what we did is we worked with the Arizona Business Advisors to do a bit of an assessment and surveying. And from that information it was, like. you should build a co -working space or try to use some of the commercial vacancy. So because there's been an interest, it got brought up in our January workshop, to our economic summit, is why we're bringing it on here and I believe is as a midterm. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. I appreciate that. I'm just going to finish up real quick. I wanted to ask a little bit about business license requirements, and I don't know if that really falls into here. But I just want to put that out there that given some of the more recent things that have happened in the state, that we are looking at some business license regulations -- or I don't even know what we call them. But anyway, to make sure that we know what, as we move forward. I'm just trying to be careful what I say. But anyway, just that we're looking at our business license process. And then I love the idea of the cross -promotions. I think I've been saying that ever since NASCAR has been here. Like we're far away, but people go far away. When they go to a NASCAR race in New Hampshire, they stay in Boston. So we're not -- I know Avondale is far, but we should take advantage of that. We have another championship this year. And that cross, you know, and we just had a you know, a World Series and we have Super Bowl and all kinds of things. So I love that idea. Thank you. Councilwoman? MCMAHON: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Looking at the, "Identify opportunities to attract a university or satellite campus", the box below it, as far as getting employers to build talent certification programs, don't you think those two go hand in hand? Because I would think that that would be part of the attraction for working with the university to have that complete package. So moving that up to mid-term, I would like to see that Page 24 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT done as well. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Any other comments or questions? KALIVIANAKIS: Just one brief one. MAYOR DICKEY: Yes. KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. I'm not sure if this is a budgetary item or not, but "Developing and publicize a streamlined development review process for commercial projects". Where are we on that one? I know we've discussed that before, maybe increase fees to do a speed up process? Where are we on that? JACOBS: So Madam Mayor, Councilmember Kalivianakis, so again, you're talking about just promoting the development process. Is that correct? KALIVIANAKIS: Streamlining. Making it easier for people to do business here. JACOBS: Thank you for clarifying. I appreciate that. So again, work still needs to be done. What the purpose of today is, is to just make sure we are on track to continue the ball forward. It's not to get into to all the details. So if you guys are good, we'll begin to work on those things. So as far as streamlining, I can ask Mr. Wesley if there's anything you want to add or we'll certainly be getting back to you. And is not necessarily a budget item. That will be the next slide. So most of these. KALIVIANAKIS: It's not really a budget item. It's just a reprioritization of town staff and resources? JACOBS: Right. Because sometimes we forget as people, as staff, we're time. It takes time and effort to dedicate. As people. As people? Yes. Yeah. Our time counts too. TOTH: Just really quickly. Yes, I'm good. Thank you for the plans. I know we did talk a little bit about moving a couple of things over to mid-term, which means maybe some mid -terms need to move to long-term. But overall, wonderful job on this. I'm excited to see it all roll out. I do have one little baby question still. For the Dark Skies, short-term, would their stargazing site just be the Discovery Center once that's done, or is it short-term because you're saying instead of a permanent location, it's somewhere else that they can go for now? Page 25 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT JACOBS: Yes. So Mayor Dickey, Councilmember Toth, again, thank you for all the feedback. I think we're good on the short-term. Just to recap, I heard from at least three people the ASU moved from long-term to mid-term, completely doable. Regarding the stargazing, so in having conversations with both the board and the association and me still being sort of the new kid on the block is, the Discovery Center would not be the permanent location. So we're looking for an alternative location. So again, we're getting tourism calls and people are like, hey, where can I go? Right now there's not a place for them to go. It's based on a lot of events happening. And so trying to change that, especially with the designation. We need to be able to answer and not tiptoe and dance around it. All right. So moving along, budget impacts. I ask you again, please ignore downtown strategy. What we're seeing in all those items we just talked about is three items where we're going to come back to council and may need more money. So events, what we want to seek council again, we'll take a pause and go to the next one, is for those second Thursday concepts. Again, it's not second Thursday, but staff would want to look at bringing more entertainment. Doing that once a month for six months, consistently. Looking at things to activate an area. That could be more murals, it could be check installations, it could be all sorts of different things. But again, bringing our residents and businesses to the Avenue of the Fountains, have fun, create a vibe, and then make sure too, that they're going in and dining in our restaurants and shopping. So there's a tiny budget in community services for the concerts on the Ave. And so we're wanting to look to elevate that. And so before we spend time getting excited and getting quotes, is that something that council is open to that would fall in the economic development fund? FRIEDEL: I, for one, would be for that. I think we need to do something to help the activity down in the downtown area. So I think anything we can look at and come up with a plan, I'd be willing to step forward and say, yes, we should do something to help that. JACOBS: Thank you. Page 26 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT MAYOR DICKEY: The idea that third Thursday, second Thursday or whatever, I know, really came up in 2017 and I know we're going to talk about the downtown strategy, but it is part of that. And one of the ideas about having those consistent events were that it wouldn't all fall on town and it wouldn't all fall on town staff and that maybe some of the businesses that would join the, what now is TAMA, but what -- it didn't have a name but basically it was like all of the Avenue, the whole downtown area, not just on the Avenue, would share the wealth, so to speak. So this time you have your event and the town might close the street or give them a ramp or give them a, you know, get some music or some electricity or something, so that it wasn't always something extra for staff to totally take on every time. So I'm all for like you said, having that happen, but I'd also like to have involvement because that would also naturally get them to be different kinds of events like that pet fashion show was like a perfect example. Would we think of that? They thought of it and it was really fun. And something like that, I think I would like to have participation of others in it, but I'm definitely willing, willing to put some money into that. Councilwoman? TOTH: I do completely agree with the mayor's comments on that. We have so many groups in town that all have these wonderful ideas, and maybe not all of them have the budget to run their events. Maybe that's how we can focus that, is that we say, hey, we can help you make this idea a reality but then it's not completely on the shoulders of our staff. So I do agree with that sentiment. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Once again, we're talking about a laundry list today, with the River of Time Museum, with art, entertainment, with no price tags attached at all. And it's like, wouldn't this be great? Wouldn't it be great? Wouldn't it be great to throw money at people with good ideas? I'm just not sure that's how a town should budget. I think we have to look at the budgetary impact and any ideas. So again, I know this is a preliminary. I know that you're just throwing ideas at us, but you know, hell, let's just approve everything, go home early and then give us a price tag later on, Page 27 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT and then we'll decide if we want to spend the money or not. And so I'm just a little concerned today that we're giving a lot of guidance, and go ahead, go ahead. We're going to waste a lot of staff, your time, and our staff's time. And then when we get hit with the bill, we might be like, wow, this is a lot more than we thought. Just like with the software for our voting. So again, it's just a cautionary tale. You know, it's fun to say these are a lot of items that would be good for our town. But you know, somebody's got to think about the budget, too, and that's me. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? MCMAHON: I disagree. I think this is very constructive. I appreciate the staff taking the time to do this. So as a preliminary, so that it's going to save us time. If and when any of these matters come before council for approval, it will already have the knowledge about it, understand about it, we'll be updated on it. And I think this is a very, very constructive information about what we may be possibly looking at in the future and deciding upon when we look at next year's budget in actuality. So again, thank you for your time staff. I appreciate it. MAYOR DICKEY: Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: Actually, Hannah was first. The bottom name is always the first name. It's okay. We already talked about it. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Councilwoman? TOTH: Thank you, Madam Mayor. I think it's important to remember that this meeting that we're doing right now used to just be a staff decision. So all this time, all this energy getting quotes, all of that would be spent by staff only for the council to say, no, I hate this idea. I mean, obviously no one said that, but you get my point. This meeting is kind of like we're starting at the top of the funnel. These are these ideas that the staff has. We say, oh yeah, I'm interested in this, not so interested in this, maybe this can wait. And then they know what to spend time on to get quotes. And then we have what would have otherwise been our initial meeting where we say, I don't know about that price, I've made up my mind about this. And then staff isn't necessarily Page 28 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT wasting their time on projects that would not have been an approved idea. So I just wanted to give a note, kind of for the public, for us to have a reminder that this meeting used to be a staff meeting, and then they'd come to the council and all those hours were a waste of time. So this is preventing that from happening and making sure our staff is spending their time well. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: Dammit, I shouldn't have let her go first. That was exactly what I was going to say. Today is not about it's going to cost this much money. Today is about are you interested in us finding out how much this is going to cost? And in my answer, yes, I would like further information to find out and bring back to us a couple of different options. If we can involve businesses, we can put 50,000 to it, we can put whatever. That is what I heard today is about, so that is 100 percent what I expected. I didn't expect you to come to us with dollar values. I like where this is going. I would love to see dollar values on this stuff, when we come back in whatever month it is, February. Today is going exactly how I understood it to go. And I agree with Councilmember Toth. JACOBS: Mayor, so for the events I'm hearing from you, Mayor, Councilmember Friedel, the Vice Mayor, Councilmember Toth, a consensus to move forward. You are not telling me, yes. But basically saying come back with the budget. And again, Councilmember Kalivianakis, appreciate where you're coming from, too. It's hard to really decide when you don't know all the dollars and cents. So I'll bring that back. We'll bring it back with options of if it's staff -led, if we involve the businesses, if we're able to do an approach where we can get some sponsorships to offset cost, all that good stuff. Councilmember? FRIEDEL: I just wanted to say the wine event that they had down there, that was mostly done by the businesses and the chamber too. So that's what we're talking about, a collaboration. And the town had some input, but the bulk of it was carried by them. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. Perfect. Thank you. JACOBS: We'll try to. You're welcome. We'll try to. Quickly, we're having good Page 29 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT discussion. I want to be mindful of the time. So economic development marketing. When I started March 2022, staff and council were deep in the budget. Fast forward to July 1st, we get a new budget, the economic development marketing budget. What do you think it was? It was zero. Pikes. Fast forward again to this July, you guys did fix that. Thank you very much. We basically took from previous years $15,000. Again, council approved that; appreciate it very much. Just want to tell you my professional opinion when we're looking at local, regional, national, 15 is just not cutting it. So if there's support there, want to bring back a more healthier, realistic budget, looking again, local, regional, national. When it comes to tourism marketing, it has been -- I don't know if it was staff, I don't know if it's council. It's all good. But what I've been seeing is we've been relying heavily on grant funding. I want to plant a seed when it comes to again, economic development and tourism, that we change that mindset for various reasons. One, when you're seeking the grant funding, you may not get it, so you may get a goose egg. Five months ago, we requested grant funding from Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation. We are getting zero. Number two, when we're having to rely and react, then we start to just copy and paste. And we can't be creative and innovative. We just do the same old thing. Third, so Councilmember Toth, I think, has been somewhat alluding to it, some terminology that has been new to the council is we're actually the designated marketing organization. So if you think of Visit Phoenix, Visit Scottsdale, that's an entirely separate entity. And so basically, if you look at those efforts, we're obviously much smaller. We have taken that on and we're responsible for the entire destination. We were lucky last year to get over 300 grand in grant funding. A lot of that was through Governor Ducey and the AOT Visit Arizona Initiative. Governor Hobbs, it looks like, may continue that one more year, we still haven't heard. And guess what? It's November so it's hard to really plan. So understanding that some of that is facing us in the eye, we want to be just straight up that come next year we could be looking at 50 to 100,000. And so again, not 300,000 Page 30 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT anymore. And so just wanted to check the pulse or if you don't want to provide any feedback, to just plant that seed that we need to beef up our marketing. Any comments? MAYOR DICKEY: Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: Real quick. Counting on grant money is not the way to operate economic development or tourism. It comes with restrictions. There's usually a use by date. So I wholeheartedly agree with what you're saying. We're saying on one hand, we need to support our businesses, we need to support our businesses, but then we don't give you any money for economic development. So I have a problem with that. I don't have a problem with your coming for that ask. I think that's the right thing to do and I support that. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. Thank you. And I think this idea of separating tourism might you know, that was something from the past. And you know, we used to pay quite a bit to -- I know we were in that Scottsdale one for a while, and then the chamber did it. So it's never going to be free. So no matter what we do, it's worth looking into putting some resources into that. Thank you. JACOBS: And then I'll just say again -- MAYOR DICKEY: Oh, sorry. JACOBS: -- with the implementation plan, because there's been questions, we're going to find a way. We're trying to be a little bit more interactive, we're not sure if that's going to work. But the progress of the implementation plan will be posted on the website. When it is, I will let council know, obviously the public and then as some of these begin to elevate, when I do my quarterly updates, we will provide those updates. FRIEDEL: I would also like to add that I'm for taking another look at that and seeing what we can do too. So you're going to bring back some information for us then? JACOBS: That is correct. FRIEDEL: Okay. JACOBS: Yes. All right. Downtown strategy. So again, as we were looking in September and summer, having one-on-one conversations, there has been a downtown strategy Page 31 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT plan that was done back in 2009. And again, just your professional staff, we would like to look at creating a new strategy. Several reasons. One, 2009, 2023. One could assume some of the data that was collected was before, during the Great Recession. We've dealt with COVID-19. The way we look at some of the developments are different. So this is just a map that has been in the strategy plan. I'll bring your attention to -- there are some red dashed lines near the Pillar formerly Havenly and Basha's. And then, if you look at the big green spot on the entire lake. So this is '09. What staff is proposing is changing things up for 2024. This is the area we're looking at. We've removed Basha's and Pillar. Newer developments. Not sure too much is going to happen. Of course, we'll look at that because it's a boundary but won't be a huge focus. We've also removed that huge green spot around Fountain Park. The reason why there was -- FRIEDEL: Was that an algae bloom? I'm just kidding. JACOBS: So I'm like what's going on? We're being funny, being more relaxed in a retreat. I like it, Councilmember Friedel. So with Fountain Park, there were ideas to have some commercial development. A hotel. It's not really realistic. And then as a town, that area has become really important for our event scene. So we're moving that. But you'll see that there's a small section -- because we do believe there needs to be some connectivity in the future from the Avenue to the park. What we are proposing is that this be a staff -led initiative. It would be a one-year process beginning January; and yes, two months from now, January of 2024. About ten months will be the scope that I'll get into in just a second. November, we would hope to bring the proposed strategy to the planning and zoning commission for approval, and then in December, council get your approval. What we'd be looking at is land use, infrastructure, economics, public space, and then forecasting we think is important. So we've heard some people say, oh, how about we just tear down everything and do multifamily? That would not be a good idea. To show some modeling as why that would be a bad idea. Looking at not just being a single building, looking at different Page 32 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT elevations, looking at mixed use and being able to articulate to the public and council why you need some of those mixed use. Especially again, staff realizes, one, we're landlocked. We realize we don't have a local primary property tax, so we rely heavily on sales tax. And so again, just part of that messaging. I will pause again. Mayor, do a little check in on just the questions being asked. Are we good with this being a staff -driven process beginning in January, so two months from now? TOTH: Absolutely. The downtown plan, I love that you're honing in our focus because that really is what people, I would say, would think of as downtown. We love Basha's, but it's just not quite developing in an area in a way that would make them -- make you think of downtown, I think. So the map looks good to me. The process, putting a full year into looking at how that scope of work needs to be laid out, I like it. I'm for it. Go, Amanda. JACOBS: Go, team. MAYOR DICKEY: You have the connectivity there, obviously. And you know, I know 2009 was a long time ago, but there were things in there that we did do and that were you know, this was a sway back plan, this was a this became part of our general plan. And some of the things that are in there are still very important, including the connectivity, which is very important. We had right in that, you know, and I carry the book around with me almost, the performance venue parking, thoughtfully integrated; traffic, calming; walkability, between there so you can cross the street between the park. One of the things that was a definite difference is that the old one had like boats and things like that, we're not doing that. And I think that's very appropriate. But I just want to point out that there were a lot of -- and I sound like an old fogey, but there were a lot of things in that that really made a lot of sense. And I would like us to continue to do that. And some of that was in our general plan, is in our general plan, including the traffic calming, the possible parking, the connectivity so you can cross there without -- you know, safely. So I would really like to see that go on. Angled parking along Saguaro was part of it. I have like all the quotes that were in there that Page 33 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT are still very appropriate for today. So I'm glad to see that word "connectivity" in there and public space. But I'm I am okay with it being driven by staff brought back to us in that way. Any other comments on that aspect of it? Brenda? KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. I would like, if you skip forward, you're there talking about a $50,000 downtown fund for the conceptual and then the half a million dollars a year for five years. Are we agreeing to that right now too? Or we're not there yet? JACOBS: No, councilmember, we're not there yet. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. JACOBS: You're eager, Brenda. KALIVIANAKIS: Because what the mayor said, I think a lot of that made sense. And so let's just keep plodding forward. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilman? FRIEDEL: I think it's good to review these plans. It's been five years since we took a look at it. And you know, the sway back became part of the general plan. SPAC reviews their plan all the time. So it's good that we take a look at this so that we can really integrate the whole downtown area. So I think it's good to move forward. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. JACOBS: Mayor, so I feel like I've heard from Councilmember Toth, Councilmember Friedel, you, Councilmember Kalivianakis, so we're going to roll -up our sleeves come January. But wait, there's more. So downtown priorities. The first three is an update. It's not going to be a budget request because you've done some of that. But just want to bring forth -- so again, you've heard the word, mayor, bringing up TAMA. So The Avenue Merchant Association, so abbreviation TAMA. They have come forth and are wanting some more shading, benches, looking at potentially having twinkly lights all year long, some wayfinding signs, benches. And so we'll be assessing that and that will be part of, again, the scope of work. But some of the ask on the wayfinding signs and benches, Page 34 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT those are easy. So just again, for the public, for the for the council, just to make sure we're on the same page. But thanks to you, one of the approved projects in our capital program are the wayfinding signs. And thank you for so many reasons, you've heard all my reasons. But what they're wanting is to direct people from Shea and just, as you're then driving along Saguaro of go to downtown, like, it's this way. So done. I'll be giving them an update next week. Thank you. You guys made that happen. Benches on the Avenue, we will look to see if we can do that in the existing budget. We've also offered to just kind of walk around to let them know, well, here are benches. Do any of them need to shift or do we really need more? So just investigate a little bit. And then we want to work with the property owners on some of the vacant lots. Some of them need a little help, got a little weeds going on. So just being a little bit more proactive with code compliance. They're already proactive, but can we do that a little bit more? One of the asks for next year where we want to check in is sidewalk infill looking at Verde River and Parkview. What we would do is, again, provide options come February of if we just did Verde River? If we just did a portion of Parkview? If we just did the whole enchilada, this is what it's going to cost. And so again, it takes quite a bit of work from staff dealing with contractors. So just want to check the pulse on that particular item if we're good to do staff work on that, because again, I'll just remind you, a couple of councilmembers asked, they're like, we thought you were still working on that and that project was on hold. No. Because in April I did not get clear direction. We stopped everything. It was removed from the budget. So just checking in. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? MCMAHON: I don't feel like I can give you a yes or no until I know the dollar value. So I support finding out how much it will be breaking it down by Verde River and Parkview, or if we did the whole enchilada. I support you doing that because I can't deny something if I don't know how much it is. Thank you. CLERK'S NOTE: Councilmember Toth left the Dais at 10:16 a.m. and returned at 10:21 a.m. Page 35 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT JACOBS: You're welcome. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilman? FRIEDEL: Not speaking for the rest of the council, but I am 100 percent behind getting something done down there and finding out what we can do to help these businesses. We must have 100-plus businesses that need that support. So I want to go on record and say that we need to do everything we can to help them. And again, I don't see a lot of big asks except for maybe the sidewalk infill right now. So let's do what we can and find out what it's going to cost us. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? MCMAHON: Amanda, didn't we walk the sidewalks? Is this the same thing as when we walked the sidewalks, right? JACOBS: Yes, Councilwoman. MCMAHON: And talked about it earlier this year? Yeah. JACOBS: Yep. You walked with staff. MCMAHON: Right. JACOBS: So it would be that. Again, we were looking to do that this year. MCMAHON: Okay. JACOBS: Didn't happen. So trying to bring it back. MCMAHON: Okay. So to me, this looks like it's all part of the downtown package, right? And given the lack of connectivity there, it breaks off. You know, it's a detriment actually to having a whole composite of the downtown area. So I suggest -- I would like you to move forward with it. Thank you. JACOBS: Okay. MAYOR DICKEY: The sidewalks are one of those things that we can apply for grants. We don't depend on them, but we might be able to. I mean, we just got $2 million for them elsewhere in town. I really would like to look at some way to not have the Avenue be a pet relief center. I really would like that to be a priority. I mean, I think that when we have events there and we have music there and people are with their kids and they're putting blankets down on the grass to listen to music. I don't like the idea that it is used Page 36 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT as a restroom all day long and I want to have some sort of options for that. But I, I really think that that is a detriment to the entire median. We had to replace all our electrical sockets or whatever you want to call it, boxes. You can see the stains on all the benches. You want to get benches and they're going to be stained. I really think it's a priority, so I'd like to do that. I'd like to move that up however we can do that. We also talk about Wi-Fi and having music and I don't know if any of that is still in the mix with Park Place or not, but I'd like to see that. I mean, it's an odd thing, but it really adds an atmosphere when there's music and when people have Wi-Fi. But if you're sitting at the bench and a dog is going to the bathroom two feet away from you, I think that that is a detriment. FRIEDEL: It's a turnoff. MAYOR DICKEY: Yeah. So I'd like to have that be part of this. JACOBS: So I have that documented. Anyone else on the sidewalk infill? I will move that forward. FRIEDEL: Could you do a favor in the next time you bring this map back, the pink area that you're highlighting here? Could you put another line in there that would show where we don't have sidewalks or where you're planning to put sidewalks in that area, so we could see that? Some of us might not be familiar with it, but I can't agree more with the dog thing. And I thought possibly that Park Place was going to put in some kind of a dog friendly area. At one point in time, I think that was mentioned. So maybe we can check with him and see if that's going to really happen? Because maybe we relocate it and get it off the Avenue, because I think that's a that's a big turnoff to people sitting there eating lunch and that kind of stuff. JACOBS: Okay. So Mayor, I'm hearing we'll bring that forth along with looking at pet relief, Wi-Fi, if some of that could be elevated. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah. I concur with the mayor on the pet relief and the downtown being used as a sewer for dogs. Also, the thing I know that Rachael Page 37 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT and the mayor and I have been discussing is, we do have a problem with unleashed dogs in this town, too. There's been a lot of dog bites. There's been a lot of dogs biting dogs, dogs biting people, a lot of threatening dogs in our dog park and our downtown. Our code enforcement isn't really capable of handling it adequately. What I'd like to see is discussion on possibly putting criminal violations so the Maricopa County Sheriff's Office can enforce off -leash dogs. I think that would be really important. I've got a lot of constituent mail, a lot of people. We just had a letter a couple of days ago about this problem. And if we're going to do improvements and put benches and sidewalks, we have to keep our people safe. And part of that would be to change our code. And it would also include signage to designate if we are going to have a waste area for dogs. And then if you violate the leash law, if you drive on our highways, it's a $500 fine. If you litter, if you use the HOV lane, it's a $400 fine. So people are aware that this is a problem and it's going to be addressed. And I hate to have large fines for people that just want to walk their dogs, but it's becoming an issue in our town. And I think it's something that we have to address. MAYOR DICKEY: And it's an issue at Adero, too. And we talk about, like you're saying, and I know that this is all higher level kind of stuff, but when we're talking about spending money to make things nice, but there's -- in other issues to go. If you're worried about getting on the trails and dogs are loose there and you know, it happens and we know it's happening. So I think that it's appropriate to bring that up at this meeting as we go forward. If we spend money to improve quality of life, it's got to affect other things, too. So thank you. JACOBS: All right. Mayor. Now we'll go to restrooms, try to be quick, but want to provide detail. So this year in the current budget, council approved 35,000 for design. So looking at the engineering, the piping, all the good stuff. And then the following year, I believe, looking at Pock, I think it's 187,000. So come July 1st, right, we have the money. We did not start spending it. So what we did is, first we went back to the Portland Loo, which was a single use stall, to see if we could expand upon that. The answer is no. We also put together an internal team to just understand what problem Page 38 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT IMENRECIIIIIMONaa we were trying to solve. And there is two. One, the immediate need of the events that are happening. So specifically the farmer's market are on the Ave, but also as we're looking at a second Thursday concept and we're having the wine walks, other activity; Tong -term, we're going to need a restroom. And so talking with public works, community services, they're like, Amanda, you're killing me, Smalls. We can't have one little Portland Loo. It'II become just a disaster. So right, fair enough. So Kevin has started to get some quotes, and that looks to be about for a four stall -- Kevin, was it four? It could be 250 to 450,000. Don't fall off your chair just yet. Also, what we did is, staff looked at what would it cost if we rented it on Wednesdays? So we got quotes from several vendors and not looking at traditional portable restrooms, but trailers, a little fancy for Fountain Hills. And so unfortunately, what all the vendors told us is for one day we can't guarantee it. You would need to pay all month long for six months. So looking at that, starting to look for years while we should have just paid for it, right? It doesn't make sense. So where we're at is we also have part of our internal team. Someone mentioned, hey, did you know that there are some private restrooms along the Avenue? Again, I'm going to use the new girl card. Being new on the block, I did not know that. And then you guys know I'm kind of friendly and I'm willing to make a deal possibly. So where we're at is we've approached a couple of the property owners that own some of the restrooms. One is a hard no. One, we've been doing a little dance. We're meeting again on Tuesday and has become a little bit more open. And so we're looking at that as a potential option. There, of course, will be some cost. We need to have staff look to see, is it ADA compliant? Do we need to do a little bit of remodeling? And so thinking that could potentially be cheaper than purchasing the four stall that now staff is highly recommending. The point of this story is just to give you an update. If you're wanting more frequent updates, always ask Manager Goodwin. We're happy to do that, but we're hoping between next week and come February, the second council retreat, we'll have more concrete idea. If that all falls through -- I'm just warning you that the 187,000 won't Page 39 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT work. We'll need to look at more money if council is interested. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. I seem to recall there has been some discussion, and Gerry, I think you had discussions with the N-Shea Group, Bart Shea about putting restrooms in Park Place, phase 2 and 3. Have we explored that? If they would be willing to do that on the ground floor level and I think there might be some support for that. Then maybe we would just need to provide signage to direct people to where the restrooms are because we do have restrooms in the Park, we have restrooms at City Hall, and then we'd have restrooms at Park Place. And so we might be able to get along with a couple of signs. And so I think that would be worth exploring. MAYOR DICKEY: Rachael? GOODWIN: So I was just going to chime in on that, that there has been preliminary discussions, exactly what you said. I think the concern is the difference between short- term and mid- to long-term. We don't have a timeline on when and how that would work and when they would be available. Obviously, Park Place is sort of a bit of a moving target. So anticipating would those be on line in two years? Would they be on line in three years? That it's still sort of a conceptual concept where this ask from our business community and our event community is a little more immediate. So trying to bridge the gap there of if they came online, if Park Place was able to do that and Bart Shea was willing to help us with that, I think those would be considered supplemental or additional restrooms. But I don't know if we're on a track to wait that long; I guess that's the big question. KALIVIANAKIS: Do we have any idea when we feel like the Park Place is going to -- I know that they're going to be breaking ground pretty soon and I anticipate, probably, within 18 to 24 months is what I've heard. GOODWIN: Every time I get an update, and they're great about keeping us posted, they are at a point where we're kind of waiting on them. Their reviews are done. They're ready to be picked up. But I know that they're having some -- still some moving pieces on their side of the ball, if you want. So I don't have a timeline on when they're ready to Page 40 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT get moving. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. Because, yeah, for what? 250 to $450,000. Just tell the people just to hold it for 18 months. JACOBS: Those inquiries I'll send to you, Councilmember. MAYOR DICKEY: So speaking of signs. So just for very short-term, I mean, are people that are at the farmers market, I mean, the -- we're open here. So is there a way to just say restrooms end of the -- I mean, it's not that far. And especially, as opposed to holding it. You might want to walk to town hall. I mean, you know -- JACOBS: We have talked to our stakeholders and they say, no, it's hard to hold and no it's hard to walk all the way to town hall. All of us move differently. So some of our stakeholders had said our senior population, the mom that's holding the hand of a three -year -old and has got a baby in the stroller and it's like, Mom, I got to go. That sometimes it's like I got to go, I can't walk all the way to the end of town hall. Depending on if you're farther down on the Avenue. So our stakeholders tell us, no, they would like something a little bit more central. MAYOR DICKEY: Is it legal for anybody to help us pay for this? If any of any of the folks wanted to help with this? JACOBS: Mayor and council, sure. There are certainly ways that the council can accept, just like any grant or donation of funds. There are certainly ways to accommodate that. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Gerry? FRIEDEL: So I think obviously, the first thing that should be done is find out what happens Tuesday. And so we have restrooms here. We have that possible one. And then maybe that holds us over until Bart Shea gets done with 2 and 3. And then we have a plethora of restrooms and nobody has to hold it. So I think whatever we need to do to help that along on Tuesday, I think the council would probably be behind that versus spending $400,000 on another unit somewhere else. So my encouragement would be to say, hey, let's look what we can do to help that process? JACOBS: Madam Mayor, again, in interest of time, I think we'll move on. We'll give an KIIMIND Page 41 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT update after Tuesday. If it's that quick or definitely be prepared by February with the options that have been brought up. All right. I think this is the last slide. Onto the next. So what we're recommending -- so again, going back to the scope, the map, that is all going to be staff driven. Unfortunately, we don't have an architect or graphic designer on staff. And so it's good to be able to articulate and show conceptual designs, especially to for trying to encourage business attraction or of some of the existing businesses to do some revitalization. And so staff would like to bring back on December 5th a request for a budget transfer into the downtown fund of 50,000 to assist with conceptual designs and also some forecasting. Some of the forecasting can be done with staff, but again, having a third -party doing some modeling that we just don't have that software capability that is an ask. Want to just touch base again before we make that ask. And then we'll provide more details come February. But planting the seed of, if we look at our capital improvement program and we're annually giving six and ten million and investing into the town, I ask, could we invest for five years, a half a million dollars into our downtown and to just get her done? Feedback? MAYOR DICKEY: And just a reminder that we do have the downtown one percent, is it? From our sales tax. So it all kind of self -perpetuates if we do it right. But any further comments? Yes, Gerry. FRIEDEL: I would be in favor of that. I don't think that's a lot over five years to invest in our downtown area to get something going. And like the mayor said, it replenishes itself through the success of what you're going to be doing here. So I think it's a win - win. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? TOTH: I would also be in favor of that. I think you just said it, so I apologize for asking for clarification. But would that be essentially 500,000 out of what would normally be that capital improvement budget? JACOBS: Yes. So looking at that program, again, we would delineate what is sidewalk infill or what can truly, as the mayor is saying, come from that downtown fund? Page 42 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT TOTH: Perfect. Yes, I'm completely in favor of that. I think investing in our downtown is a priority I've been very vocal about. So I'll put my money where my mouth is. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah, I would be a no on this one. I think the $50,000 for the conceptual is just going to be a down payment on a $10 million bill. We went to this already with TAMA when we had their presentation and they had the renderings. It looked like a $10 million project to me. I think the $500,000 per year for five years is going to be a down payment on a much larger project. This is a boondoggle. It's way too much money. I hope that Allen is still here and he can weigh in on this too, because we do have other priorities. This is a project that can wait. Again, our country is facing inflation. The markets are staggering and we're spending money like drunken sailors. This is too much money. It's too fast. We have a beautiful downtown. We're going to work on improvements with the benches. And a lot of the things that you said and the mayor said are great ideas. And the twinkling lights, maybe we can put some solar lighting up there to encourage people to shop at night. And there's a lot of good ideas, including possibly the restrooms. But this is a down payment on a lot of money. And this is just going to be like Ross Perot talked about the giant sucking sound. This is a down payment on a lot more money, and I just can't go for this. I'd like that feel good moment, and we're going to spend $10 million and we're going to compete with Scottsdale, Kierland Commons, and stuff but I'm just not there. And I hope Allen's still on the phone. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman Toth? TOTH: I'll actually return the favor and let Councilmember Grzybowski go first. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. You're the last one here. So okay, Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: This is another moment. I can't wait to see this in verbatim. So I appreciate the concept of -- that councilwoman just spoke of, but our businesses have asked us for help. Our residents are complaining that we've got empty storefronts. If we don't invest in this stuff, we can't help either sets of people that are complaining. To, I think, quote, Councilwoman Toth, we need to put our money where our mouth is. Page 43 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT And we say we support these people, there's no better way to show it than actually put money into it. Yes, our downtown is pretty, but benches are going to have people sitting. It's not going to have people walking down the sidewalks to look in the stores and be curious and then want to go in. We need to actually buck it up, put this money in there and help our businesses. Which will help our residents want to be downtown as well. As many complaints as we get about supporting businesses, supporting the landlords that have these vacant buildings, I feel like we are doing a disservice if we say to you, yeah, I agree with all those people, but no, you can't have any money to do anything about it. So I wholeheartedly support investing in our downtown area. So that was a really long way to say that. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? TOTH: I just want to, in a way, echo Vice Mayor, but also say that this money, since it's coming out of what would be capital improvement projects, is not something that we can use for potholes. So although, yes, we are prioritizing roads, we also need to figure out when it comes to that capital improvements budget, how we want to distribute that money that is going to be spent anyway. When we talk about the downtown being something that can wait, I think that's been an attitude that has been an ongoing theme where we say, yep, we want to do all these things for downtown, but we can do it later, we can do it later, we can do it later. And now it's been 40 years and we haven't done it later. I think that we have this momentum going where business owners are reaching out to us. They're providing their suggestions. We have TAMA. We have a possible another downtown group that's kind of in the works. I think that business owners are excited. They have these ideas. They want to see change. They want to help. And I think we need to take that momentum and run with it because this is a project that we can either continue talking about it for another 40 years or we can finally make progress. And I'm not -- when I say this, I'm not trying to minimize what has been done in downtown, and I want to really make that clear. The greening of downtown, these Page44of66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT other things that we've been able to do, that's wonderful. But when we really talk about making it a cohesive space, making it a downtown where we're seeing what should be there for our shopping crowd, our visitor crowd, and something that makes it a cohesive area, I think that's something that has been a goal since this town was incorporated and we finally have this opportunity to start on it. So I am absolutely for taking money from capital improvement and giving it to the downtown fund, specifically. Because that downtown fund does not have the funds on its own to take on these types of projects and ideas that we talk about and we run on and then they never get done. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Rachael, how much money have we put aside to fix the liner for the pond? GOODWIN: Good question. I think we have two million set aside at this point, and our commitment each year is, I think we try to put 500 year away. Is that right? POCK: For facilities, 500,000 but in the last two years, we've done a million. GOODWIN: Okay. Great. So last two years we've been able to put a million aside for the liner plan. KALIVIANAKIS: So there's two million right now? GOODWIN: Correct. KALIVIANAKIS: And what is the anticipated cost if that liner's got to be replaced? GOODWIN: Oh. North of 10. Probably between 10 and 15. KALIVIANAKIS: And I know the answer. I'm just saying that because I want the people to know what we're dealing with here. GOODWIN: Yeah. No. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. That's our town is Fountain Hills. And our fountain is our draw. I've owned a business. I've written the front of a paycheck. And I identified a need that people wanted. I negotiated with banks and leasing companies and I provided a service that people wanted. And I did very well because I provided a good service for businesses. Page 45 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT The way businesses make money is they look at Sapori. It's probably the best restaurant in Fountain Hills and they're always busy. That's how businesses make money. We have a beautiful town with a beautiful downtown area. We've got a fountain that's known throughout the world. We've do have a lot of festivals. We've got so much going on here. And just putting a bunch of window dressing downtown is not going to draw all these people and make these businesses more successful than they are. It will be a fun place for people to come visit and they're going to enjoy having the sun structures and this and that. But if we're doing this under the auspices of these businesses, they're going to make so much more money and we're going to get so much more tax revenue. Just that whole concept is just cockeyed. It's just not how business works. Business works, you get a good business plan and you get something that people want and they'll come shop at your store. That's it, that's how it works. And so if we're going to spend $10 million to think that classy jazz is going to sell more dresses and we're going to make more tax revenue, it's a fool's dream. And you know, somebody has got to address it, this is not how businesses make money. We're a municipal government. We tax people, Okay? And we should be providing parks. We should be providing roads. We should be providing excellent services. We should have a business development services that welcomes people, streamlines applications for new businesses. That's what we're supposed to be doing. The businesses want to locate here and make money. That's good for them. We have a beautiful town with a lot of hiking trails. We've got mountains, we've got beautiful weather. That's what we need to promote business, not throwing a lot of money and saying, oh, we're going to make we're going to make these businesses successful. I'm sorry, guys. That's not how it works. We're just going down the wrong trail here. And so you know, I want to fix roads. I want to provide parks. I want to get pickle ball courts. That's what we should be doing. So I guess you can call me a no. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Councilwoman? MCMAHON: Thank you. I'm for moving forward with this as well. Because over the years, I've heard so many complaints about the downtown area and how it's not Page 46 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT cohesive and it's not representative of our town. And some areas of it does not complement our beautiful fountain, et cetera. So given all the information that you have provided with the plans, et cetera, I think that it would be wise for you to have the availability, and your brain and mine, and for the budget for you guys to be able to plan certain things without constantly coming back here to beg for it. And that's a reality. And I don't mean that negative. I just feel like, you know, every time when you guys come up here, you know, sidewalk connectivity, you're not going to -- you don't even know what the answer is going to be, of course. However, when you have a comprehensive plan that needs comprehensive financial support. And it's not just fixing businesses. It's bringing our town together downtown in a more cohesive atmosphere. And as far as the lake liner goes, not to bring up another subject. We've discussed that at prior council meetings. That is a lot of money. We put money towards it every time we can. And in essence, it was pretty much ultimately not decided, but agreed that we're probably going to need to get a bond for that. But that's down the road. Right now we're talking about our comprehensive plan for downtown, and I support it. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman Toth? TOTH: Thank you. I just want to clarify that this ask that we're talking about right now is the budget transfer of 50,000 in downtown and then 500,000 per year for five years. So that comes out to 2.5 million, right? My point being is, I'm confused where the ten million number came from. The number that we're talking about right now is 2.5 million. Well, 2.55 with the 50,000. Wait. Yeah. MAYOR DICKEY: Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: Ditto. I also wanted to say that when we approve the budget, if we approve the $500,000 in the budget, in whatever month we approve it, April, June, whenever, we aren't approving five years of $500,000. Right now, we're saying we'd like to look at five years of $500,000 each year. But when we go to approve the budget next year, we're only approving the '24/'25 budget of $500,000. Every year that council will be able to go, Amanda, you pulled it off this time. Let's do it again or not do it. So Page 47 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT we're not approving $2.5 million next year. We're approving just the one portion of it. I also wanted to remind people that we have had these mountains and this same weather ever since Fountain Hills was a town. Yes, that is a draw. But we still get complaints. It's not bringing in what we thought it was going to bring in to help us survive. At one point, we had a primary property tax, council took it away years and years ago and it is not helping our town survive. We need to decide what we are and we're really cheating in our downtown area. I say that over and over and over again. So anyway, my whole point is I think we should go with it. I'm excited about the concept. I am excited at the concept of helping our vacant property, our vacant buildings, and our current people possibly do better. And if we keep things status quo, it's just going to look old and stale and people are not going to keep coming back. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilmember Skillicorn, did you want to say something? I'm sorry. SKILLICORN: Thank you, Madam Mayor. And since my name was mentioned in the debate, I'd like to respond. Well, the first question I have is how much revenue comes in by that one percent downtown sales tax? JACOBS: 142,000, according to our chief financial officer. SKILLICORN: So 142,000, it's like last year, right? JACOBS: That is correct. SKILLICORN: And do we have an approximate number of what's in that fund right now? JACOBS: 626,000. SKILLICORN: Okay. So that's good to know. And there is ability if things grow, we could pull in a little bit more money. But you know, that isn't always a guarantee. And even the best forecasts may not always be right, because it's a forecast. It's a little like forecasting the weather. So somewhat more -- I mean, this is -- this is a pretty big price tag. And I still have to ask. We could have a $5 million downtown improvement. And if we can't drive to that downtown, what good does it have for us? If people, coming from over the hill, if they don't want to drive on our roads to get to that down town, what benefit does it have to us? Page 48 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT So really, if we have the same kind of commitment to every year, properly funding our roads to a much larger extent than what we do right now, five or ten years from now, we would have a luxury that we could do so much more because we'd have that taken care of and we've had this debt off our back. And it really is. That's what it really is, because we've underfunded it for the past six years or so. So this is a real big ask. And I still think community events are a better draw for our town. I think doing maybe even more, I think, actually, like more than a monthly event, that draws people in. Having a little bit of extra pop because the community events will draw outsiders in, draws our own public, gives our people something to do. But also is community and business development. But I really think that would be a better priority. And it's less expensive than just capital upgrades. And frankly, there was a comment about, you know, taking money from capital improvements. I'm sorry, but those capital improvements include like drainage issues. I mean, I would much rather save someone from their house floodings than have, you know, really nice amenities on our downtown. That's a bigger priority to me. So that's going to be where I stand. And I'm not against some improvements. I'm not against using the one percent sales tax to do more. I'm not against investing there, but there is priorities and this is a priority. But it's not going to be my top five. So thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you, Councilman. Just to be clear, like sitting up here, I'm not saying I'm going to go for 500 grand every year for five years. This is something that we're talking about to pursue, to tell us what you would do with it. But again, this is not a budget process right now. KALIVIANAKIS: Right. MAYOR DICKEY: And both you, Brenda and Hannah, both said things that I agree with. I mean, I think you can drill down and say, yeah, we're responsible for infrastructure. We have a lot going for this town. I don't think we've done zero downtown at all because, you know, you pointed that out on your piece that you presented for us. So I think there are things that are being said that are correct by everybody. But I do think we Page 49 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT should have more attention down there, and I'm all for going ahead with that. But none of us are, I think, sitting up here saying, okay, we are going to be 100 percent, $500,000 per year because we know next year we're losing $700,000 in rental tax. And we have a lot of things that we don't know yet. But I think again, this was the ability to say we're in favor of a concept. You don't have seven people up here saying absolutely not, but you don't have seven people up here saying, yeah, sign us up. And I think that that's what we're trying to get out of this day-to-day. And we're like almost a half hour over now. So Brenda, go ahead. KALIVIANAKIS: I've got just a very brief statement. Well, it was it was said here on this dais that we've had a lot of complaints that our downtown is not beautiful and not desirable. And I've never heard anybody make that complaint. So I have to disagree with that. But I just want people to know that what you've heard up here and this has got to do with the pond liner is we're going to get a $25 million bond for the schools. We're going to get a $10 million bond for the liner. And then we're going to get, I don't know, 60 to $80 million backlog on the road. So maybe we'll get a $40 million bond on the roads. This is your money, people. You live here. Okay. And so just be careful what you wish for, because these bonds, they've got to be paid back and they'll show up on your property tax bill. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Is that it for your presentation? JACOBS: Yes. Madam Mayor, for the budget transfer, we'll bring that forward. And again, council has a choice to say aye or nay. But hearing some support for that and again, with the half a million more to come, come February, but just planting seeds and appreciate the dialogue. MAYOR DICKEY: Well, we appreciate everything that you're doing, and I think we all want the same thing, but we have to figure out a way to get there with limited resources, which is a result of us not having a property tax. And people have lived here for a long time with that benefit. So it's starting to kind of rise to the top right now. I've been asked for a quick break. I don't know, does anybody want to do that? If we Page 50 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT stick right to it, five minutes. ARNSON: Speaking of holding it. Yeah. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. I hear support for that. So how about like eight minutes? CLERKS' NOTE: The Council recessed at 11:05 a.m. and reconvened at 11:14 a.m. MAYOR DICKEY: Hi, everyone. We want to get started so we can try to catch up some time. Our next item is talking about the museum. Is that you, Amanda? JACOBS: I am the lucky one. Three in a row. All right. So a couple of months ago, the River of Time approached staff regarding a financial request. So one year, $100,000. Again, I'm not going to go into a lot of detail because, as the mayor indicated, we're over by, I think, 30 minutes. So we've received a request. They were incorporated in 1991. They did a lot of great things during the COVID-19 pandemic. Post-COVID, there are some issues with donors, event participation. And so they've had to reduce hours, reduce staff. There's two part-timers. What they're looking for is to use this money in the year to be able to go back up to operating fully, as well as the staff assist with programing. Why I'm presenting this is, of course, it hits economic development, business retention, our strategic stakeholders. One of the original founders is from Fort McDowell Yavapai Nation, also tourism. I again recognize we do not have all the details. We're checking in with the council. Are you, yes, please proceed with the River of Time, along with Aaron, to negotiate a contract that will come back to council. Again, you're not saying yes, we're going to do it. It's just that staff time. There's a lot of staff time in negotiating, building a contract, ensuring that we are meeting the criteria of the Arizona gift clause. So we are looking for, yes, move forward, Amanda. I don't have a lot of detail, but a little open or I'm a hard no. Madam Mayor? MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? TOTH: Hi. I am a hard no on this. It's not that I don't love our museum. It's just that we cannot be setting a precedent that we are the safety net for -- we have so many groups in town, so many nonprofits. I think that I would encourage the museum to reach out to our wonderful base of volunteers in this town. We have a lot of people that are able to financially assist them if they are willing to, and I don't think that that should be us. Page 51 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT JACOBS: Are there any other hard no's? I'm just going to try to again, help. We've got three to four items. Again, we're over time. Anyone -- MAYOR DICKEY: Before anybody. I wanted to just say before anybody says a hard no, there are other cities like the City of Sedona and others that have arrangements like this. And you have to get a service back for this. So it's not like a bailout kind of a thing. And I think some of the discussion had to do with the commission and with archives and maybe storing things, or keeping archives for the entire community, including the school district and all of the FACCA who have a lot of -- everybody has a lot of stuff now after fifty years. So it wouldn't be like a -- like, kind of what you're saying because I totally get that. But there's more to it. So I think what we're trying to say is, is it worth looking to see what that kind of an agreement might be? And is the 100,000, it might be 50,000, it might be less, or it might be nothing. But is it worth seeing if this is an arrangement? And if I hadn't seen something with other cities where I saw that it works and it's legal. So that's why I would want to see what kind of thing we could do to make sure that it was a benefit for us too. Councilwoman? TOTH: Thank you. My last little note on that. Amanda, I don't know if this is a you question or not, so I apologize. This might be a Rachael question. Does the River of Time currently pay rent for the town building that they're in use of? JACOBS: So Mayor, Councilmember Toth, no. TOTH: Do they pay electricity? JACOBS: No. TOTH: AC? JACOBS: No. TOTH: Okay. JACOBS: And that was per our public works director. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah, when I saw this one pop up on the agenda, too, what I thought about was the gifting clause, too. I know this is something Page 52 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT that we're going to be addressing with the International Dark sky Discovery Center. There's going to be a lot of negotiations, a lot of work to do on that, because the previous council represented to them incorrectly that we could gift that to them. Now we're going to run into that with this thing too. Two municipalities, I think, Aaron, you can verify this, just lost gifting clause cases just recently. And so this is on the radar. This is being litigated. And again, we're opening ourselves up to being the third municipality that's going to be sued under the gifting clause. And so we have to proceed with caution. ARNSON: Mayor and Councilwoman, in part, I do think that's right. One of the issues from my perspective, the legal issue that we're looking at with this is gift clause, which we've kind of talked about today. But most specifically, there has to be a public purpose for the expenditure, which that's satisfied here. That's not going to be the issue. The issue is the get that we're that we're receiving in exchange for what we're giving up, right? We have to have consideration that's adequate under the law. And if we decide to move forward with this, I guess the best legal representation that I can make right now is that it would have to be -- in exchange for what the town is giving up, there would have to be some significant consideration. I would have to be persuaded to in order to -- in order to make sure that what we're getting is adequate to survive a challenge from whether it's ATRA or Goldwater or any of these institutions, right? That tend to look at these sorts of expenditures. We don't have those details right now, as Director Jacobs said. And so I can't make a representation as to if what they're proposing would pass muster under legal analysis. So I can't give an opinion about it because we don't know, and it's a fact intensive inquiry. But if the direction is to move forward, please know that at least from a legal perspective, that I would be looking very, very closely at the arrangement before proposing anything to the council. I just couldn't in good faith do that. JACOBS: Mayor, I heard two nos. Any more feedback from council for direction? FRIEDEL: I think if Aaron's going to be the one, kind of, like the watchdog on this side, I'd be okay getting some more information on it as well. And maybe the ask isn't Page 53 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT 100,000. We don't know that either, do we? GOODWIN: It doesn't. FRIEDEL: It is a 100? MAYOR DICKEY: It doesn't have to be. FRIEDEL: Oh, it doesn't have to be. Okay. All right. So I'm leaning on the no side because of the caution. But if Aaron's going to be keeping an eye on it, then I say we -- ARNSON: It's a lot of faith in me, Okay. MAYOR DICKEY: All this pressure. FRIEDEL: Yeah, it is. It's pressure. MAYOR DICKEY: Anybody else? I think you're probably going to know that we don't want an inordinate amount of time, maybe. But I think that there are models out there that might make it a little bit easier to take a look at it. And I know that they wrote up somewhat of a proposal on the things that they would be able to offer us. And so it will be a matter of seeing if that works out for us in any way, shape, or form. JACOBS: So I saw a head nod over here. I know people can't hear a head nod, so it sounds like don't spend a lot of time, move forward. Some people with an open mind. Yes? And we'll work very closely with Aaron. And as the mayor is indicating, there are best practices where it can work to not be in violation of the gift clause. I have some professional history in doing that. So again, I think, again, professional expertise, what is out there? We won't spend tons of time. MAYOR DICKEY: And just to keep in mind what Hannah was saying as far as other sources and finding out what has already been examined. Because, again, it is a town building and we don't want it empty. So what are the ramifications and how can how can we make this work best for everyone, which is sort of what we're always trying to do. But we appreciate whatever you can do to bring back to us. Thank you. JACOBS: Thank you, Mayor. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. Next is about the community center. I think, Justin, you'll be up on that one. WELDY: Madam Mayor, Councilmembers. First, thank you for the opportunity. Second, Page 54 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT I would like to offer a second thanks to the town manager and this mayor and council for helping public works streamline their list that they will be dropping in the letter to Santa. Please note there is an incredible amount of history in regards to the community center. We have shared that with you at several different opportunities and occasions. We've also shared reports and assessments. The bottom line is this. The short-term issues that we have addressed, which is the wet ceiling, the O'Flynn storage area, to dewater are just that. So the O'Flynn is a Tong -term solution and no additional work will be needed there. However, for the storefronts, the wet sealing we did was an intermediate temporary. We've also put in an incredible amount of work on the doors. The doors will still leak during wind -forced rains and there's not much we can do about that. However, unknown about what was going to be coming in the assessment from the professionals or the architectural firms, we were very conservative in budgeting for this year and on the five-year horizon, roughly 200,000. We now know that that is simply not enough money to move forward on some of the larger ticket items. What we are looking for here is some direction. The next phases are most likely going to be saw cutting and removing a large portion of the concrete on the area of the community center that faces the Centennial Plaza and also to the east. And grinding away on some of the storefront concrete to slope it away. But there is a lot of other big ticket items coming up, including when we replace the storefronts, not just the glass, but the entire thing, a lot of that infrastructure has been damaged over the years and that steel studs and those components will need to be replaced. Another large ticket item that we need to start planning for is the roof. So right now it's in relatively decent condition and proper maintenance will keep it that way, but not forever. And that is a large ticket item. So what our ask is, is how aggressive would you like us to be in next year's budget in regards to the items for the community center? MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. I guess my first question would be what's the risk of waiting on any of this? The saw cut and such? Because from the past we've been getting reports that we've been pretty remarkably successful. I mean, what you just said about rain and wind and such. But if we did not do that, saw cut right away -- Page 55 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT because you did do the front, right? You already did the -- I don't know that patio area, right? So what's the risk that -- I guess, that's what we would really need to know. WELDY: Madam Mayor, the risk to -- what we refer to as the short-term term, which was the wet ceiling, is that we don't have a guarantee on how long that will last. And water intrusion will damage the improvements that we made, including creating another issue in regards to abatement for organic material that grow in the wall. MAYOR DICKEY: But again, we were -- I think I was under the impression that we were remarkably successful in stopping that right now. So is this something that's currently happening? WELDY: No, it is not. We currently do not have any intrusion from the wet ceiling. We are simply working to plan. We know that the wet ceiling, in terms of building life, is a short-term. MAYOR DICKEY: Brenda? KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Justin, I remember in a previous report that you gave to the mayor and council that there was an alternative method that you used that was cheaper for the roof mitigation. I thought it was a Tess expensive -- that was going to save us a lot of money. Am I mistaken? WELDY: Mayor, Councilmember, you are not mistaken. We did, in fact, try a couple of different alternatives, however, they sold us on the success of it. It was not -- did not come to fruition. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman Toth? TOTH: Would we be able to take, kind of, a happy medium in terms of aggression on this next budget cycle? When we talk about the possibility of having to potentially replace or have significant repairs to the roof, are we able to earmark an amount of money in this year's budget so that we're not blindsided next year or the year after if something is to occur? WELDY: Madam Mayor, Councilmember, the answer is yes. And the roof is in the outline years. Right now we're just dealing with water intrusion. TOTH: Okay. Thank you. Page 56 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT MAYOR DICKEY: Rachael? GOODWIN: Justin, correct me if I'm wrong, and I want to make sure that this got translated. My understanding is, if we do the saw cut and the exterior changes to essentially direct water away from the building, that measure will help preserve the wet seal and the current the current status of our storefronts. WELDY: Correct. GOODWIN: Is that accurate? So the staff perception is that if we do that, we're then at least taking water away. We're moving water away from the building, we're not taking more on. That will at least preserve where we're at today and hopefully slow down the degradation of where we're at. So it sounds like that would be the recommended next step, short of ,again, just trying to use the word "preserve" -- preserve what we have, preserve where we're at today so we don't continue to degrade. And that would be probably the recommended next step, short of full replacement and taking on those elements. In terms of the roofing situation, and Councilmember Toth just kind of mentioned, hey, can we earmark? We do have a fund for that, and you're going to hear me and probably David Pock talk about that in a subsequent council meetings. We do have a fund that we set aside. It is a reserve fund. It is intended for those types of large, expected expenditures that are just part of maintenance. It's the HVAC system, it's the roofing, it's when we have to do standard maintenance that's just part of operating business. That's where we should start anticipating some of these outlying costs and be putting away funding for those types of things. So that's where we can anticipate that and prepare for that type of level of expenditure. Did I somewhat summarize that right, Justin? WELDY: Correct. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilman? FRIEDEL: Justin, I had listed them as priorities. The saw cut would be number one, remove and replace the storefronts, two. And then the outlying years, as you had mentioned, would be the roof. And we save money, as Rachael said, along the way for Page 57 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT the roof. Does that make sense? WELDY: Madam Mayor, Councilmember, in fact, that's what staff is looking at. FRIEDEL: Okay. WELDY: Exactly what you outlined there. FRIEDEL: Do you have an idea, a ballpark what the saw cut would estimate to be? WELDY: Including the architectural services, Councilmember, I would expect that we would be just north of the $300,000 mark, roughly. And that's just a rough estimate based on market pricing. FRIEDEL: Okay. And when would you expect that to start? If it was a approved in the budget? WELDY: While the community center is closed in the hottest part of the summer, July. FRIEDEL: All right. WELDY: We would like to get started immediately, as soon as the budget was approved. FRIEDEL: Okay. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: And we didn't have anything in there from last time, from any other funding that we put towards this project? There's nothing left? WELDY: Madam Mayor, for this year, no. In fact, I came to you with my proverbial hat in hand and asked for a little bit of funding, most recently to accomplish the long-term fix for the O'Flynn room. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. So the saw cut thing sounds like something that we should have on our budget for this year. WELDY: Understood. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. WELDY: I will proceed. And when we come back, we'll have some hard numbers and dates. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. FRIEDEL: I have another question. MAYOR DICKEY: Yes, go ahead. FRIEDEL: What do you anticipate the cost of redoing that roof is going to be? Page 58 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT WELDY: I don't have those numbers available, sir. FRIEDEL: Okay. WELDY: It would be difficult to anticipate three to five years or seven to ten years out. FRIEDEL: I'm looking at dollars and what we need to save going forward. So is that something we can look at and come back with a suggestion for us? WELDY: Absolutely. FRIEDEL: All right. If it's not too much work. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Makes sense. Thank you. So next is Four Peaks Park school building purchase or at lease consideration. WELDY: This one is a little bit challenging. I have The Guardian report, which shows that approximately $5 million is needed for a building that's at the end of its life term. I also have firsthand knowledge that the current owner believes that it's valued at $5 million. As part of our due diligence, we would secure the services of a professional to appraise that property. I will say this, the school, and understandably so, since that building has closed has spent little to no funding on any maintenance for obvious reasons. We have provided in the past our staff report to the mayor and council as part of the BIZ HUB. We've also shared the Guardian report. I would encourage you, when you are looking at the original cost, which was submitted in 2021 but started in 2018, to please add at least 30 percent based on market rate adjustments for materials and labor. So if something was approximately $5 million at that time, let's just say roughly that it's going to be 7 at this point in time, if the building was to be brought up to the standards necessary to use it as an educational or to be occupied by the public. GOODWIN: For purposes of today's discussion, the concept has been brought forward by members of the public, members of council, as well as members of the school district, about what would happen if the town were to acquire the property one way or the other. We're looking to understand if that's even of interest to this body and if so, to what extent. Because there's a lot of rabbit holes we could go down with this concept, right? Is it keeping the building? Is it just property? Is it rebuilding something Page 59 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT else? Is it redeveloping it? And if we want to go down this road, we'd like to narrow the guidelines of what interests the council actually has, if we were to talk to the school, the school board, about acquiring it one way or the other. Because there is so much labor and so much potential, I guess, here. We want to try to get some governance on what it is we would potentially want to do, if anything, and that's what we're looking for direction on today. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Councilwoman? GRZYBOWSKI: For the -- SKILLICORN: Madam Mayor? MAYOR DICKEY: Let's let Councilmember Skillicorn go. GRZYBOWSKI: Go ahead. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: That makes total sense. SKILLICORN: Thank you so much for allowing me to ask a couple of quick questions or a couple of statements. On this particular one, obviously, we have to wait till next week to know what the school board is allowed to do with it. And then they have a choice, you know, to do something right away or wait or -- but obviously, we have to work with them because they are owners of the property. But after that, after -- if it's approved and if the school board is interested in doing something right away, I would be interested in the town potentially having a move on it. Obviously, we would have to have it appraised. That would be the legal way of doing it. Then also the price of what it would be to tear down that building. And frankly, to me, this is like an expansion of the park. I don't see a way to repurpose that building. I don't see a way to rebuild it and also have it be economically viable after spending all that money. And we also have to remember, this is a middle of a neighborhood and the people in the neighborhood, their voices matter too. And I don't want to have a drastic change. And it would be inappropriate to have something zoned. It doesn't reflect the neighborhood or have a factory there or something. I really think an expansion of the park would be a better idea. But again, we have to wait. And I don't want to get too ahead of ourselves Page 60 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT because the school board may or may not have the approval to do this. And even if they do, they have plenty of years to decide what they want to do with it. So I think we have to -- we're really putting the cart before the horse a little bit here. But those are my ideas. I think expanding the park would be the best interest. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: I watched the October 2021 meeting where the inspector presented the results to the school board, and these are mostly direct quotes from the inspector. In 1970 to 1990, buildings had lower construction standards and cheaper material used, so that gives you shorter lifestyles. And Four Peaks is one of these buildings. Age is a big driver in the buildings needs. Four Peaks -- these are quotes, "Four Peaks should be at the end of its useful life based on life cycle years mentioned above". End of useful life was mentioned at least three times during his presentation. It needs major gut renovations. A question came up about the fire safety concerns and Four Peaks is serviceable, but still at the end of its useful life. I give you these quotes because I'm against getting the building as is in the same manner that I was for them selling the building, if that's what they choose to do. It is an asset. If they would like to sell their building in the 20 or 25 years or whatever it is, I think they should be able to do it. But I do not think that we should invest in this building. I support community services and I think they need to expand and I would love to see them do it. But the building would have to be torn down, which would be pretty darned expensive and time consuming. I agree with Councilmember Skillicorn that if this was something that we were to do, it would be a tear down and expand the park. But that would be the only useful thing I see for the town in obtaining this property. And unless I knew how much it was, that is not even a conversation I'm willing to have. And that doesn't include purchasing the building, which we would be expected to do at market value. So you would have purchasing the building at market value and then you would have tearing the sucker down. So I just don't see us -- this as something that we can pull off. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Councilwoman? TOTH: I totally agree. So I was someone who wanted to at least have a discussion Page 61 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT about this because of feedback that we received in BRE meetings. The thing with BIZ HUB is that we do have these business owners that are in there that we need to figure out a solution for. And it's very clear to me that Four Peaks building is not necessarily that solution. I would agree that if we were to do anything with that area, it would have to be getting rid of the building, which still doesn't solve their problems. So yeah, I just completely agree with the last two councilmembers who spoke that this is just not going to make sense for the town to purchase the land. MAYOR DICKEY: Oh, thanks. So yeah, we'll wait to see what the vote says and then what their plan is. I mean, I see intergovernmental agreement type of stuff maybe or more -- I don't know if we wanted to ever put something there. We've always talked about some sort of center or indoor basketball or indoor pickle ball, I think, I heard earlier. But this is premature. I don't think we should put any more time into it ourselves until we know. I mean, if it's a flat out, they get permission to sell it and they're going to sell it retail five million. No. But I think if we end up with some sort of an agreement, something else. Because yeah, it's right there. It's right by the park and it would be very useful for us, I think. But when I say us, I'm saying the community. So we're both public entities and I think if something could be worked out that way, that would be great. But I don't think from this minute on we should spend any time on it. Councilwoman? SKILLICORN: Madam Mayor? MCMAHON: Also. MAYOR DICKEY: Hold on one sec. MCMAHON: Also, if the bond measure passes for this, for them to have authorization to sell it, I don't even know if they're really going to do that. If they decide to retain it, are they going to fix it up? And that would be in our favor if we wanted to use it. So while I appreciate this being brought forward, I'd like to wait and see what happens after the election as well. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Councilman? SKILLICORN: Thank you. One last comment. And I'm not in the appraisal business, but Page 62 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT my understanding of an accurate appraisal, they would put a number on what the property would be worth. And the building, since it needs to be torn down, that would be a deduct. So if it would cost a quarter of a million dollars to tear that building down, if the appraiser says the property is only worth 1.25, that would be $250,000 less and then the total purchase price would be a million. And again, I'm not in the business. This is not an appraisal, but I believe that the deduction would be in store for the tear down cost of that building because it is not something that would be economically viable to rehab. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Any further comments? Councilman? FRIEDEL: So if the vote does go and they are allowed to sell it, is that something we can have brought back in once we know more facts and figures? I don't think we should ever just say, no, we're not interested, period. I think we need to get some numbers and find out at some point what they're going to sell it for. Because it makes sense, w own all the land around it. GOODWIN: Well, I think there's a couple of different answers to that question. Depending on what the voters decide, if they can sell it -- FRIEDEL: Yeah. GOODWIN: -- then they have some decisions to make on their side. Right? If they're going to put it up for sale, if they're going to, again, market value kind of thing. I think what they're asking, or at least what my impression was and Justin feel free to chime in, was regardless of how the vote goes next week, the school district has the opportunity to work with us as a government agency. And the mayor kind of mentioned this as an IGA. So it's not necessarily a sale. It could be a swap. It could be a land situation. That's how we acquired what is Four Peaks Park today. When that school closed, they gave the outdoor space to the town and now it's operated as a park. So it wouldn't be unheard of, and there's definitely precedent there. So it's not necessarily contingent on the vote next week, but what the school can or can't do and the avenue they may want to pursue will be influenced by that. So to answer your question, yes, we can always look at it further. I think the question Page 63 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT we need to know is, is this something we need to plan for in February and have money in the budget for appraisals, for assessments, for those types of things? Or is this going to be a longer term conversation? FRIEDEL: Probably going to be longer term, but I think we're probably one of the better suitors for that property. MAYOR DICKEY: Yeah. I think that, again, it wasn't like a no. It was just like, right now let's not do anything. We have no idea what their plan is afterwards if they get the permission to sell. And these are conversations we have internally a lot, and it might not cost anything or at least, initially. So thank you very much. Any other comments about that? So our last item is sort of an area that you guys can bring stuff up if you would like to. Council items for discussion and direction. Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: I would like to bring to the attention when we start talking sidewalk infill, I realize that this is not an actual town expense. Rather a conversation with landlords to help make them aware. A year ago, you guys know I moved across the street, so I turned from a drive everywhere to a literal walk everywhere. So I no longer view the town as an exerciser, when I'm walking through it. I am actually going from point A to point B. And I'm noticing not only are we missing sidewalks, but there are -- best example, my husband was yelling at me when we walked by it the other day. The Sipps strip mall has no entrance other than the two driveways. So if you're walking, let's say from Safeway towards Sipps, you have to walk all the way around to get to the driveway to walk through. Which I realize doesn't seem like a big deal, but when you're walking a town that's a part of the walkability infrastructure. So I feel like we should be having conversations with the landlords or the property owners to say this could be more accessible if. And again, I realize this is not an expense for us, but I do think it should be a part of our infrastructure conversation with people as they're developing things. And I know I'm going to get a bunch of emails on it about how stupid this is. But I am viewing it as a walkable town now, as opposed to, I would walk from my house and loop the fountain three or four times and then walk back. So you miss a lot of stuff when you Page 64 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT look at the town like that. So that's again, it's not an expense. I just think we need to have it in the back of our head when we start talking to developers. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Comments from council or staff about anything that you'd like to bring forward? We talked about the liner, which we all know is looming, but it's not immediate. We talked about in the past, storage for water so that we could address some sodium issues there. And I think that's still something that needs to be discussed for that. We've talked about streets, of course. And one of the things is this constant balancing act for us is that we have all the things we want to do for quality of life. We have so many public safety and parks and fun and all those things, but then the streets loom and they've always loomed. And I think that along with the liner, there's going to be some responsibilities that our community will have to take up for these bigger items. We can cut 200 grand here and there or whatever, but we're not going to get the four or whatever million we need every year to get the roads up to where we need them to be. And we'll be facing the challenges of the rental tax going down and who knows what may be in the future that they -- and if they go after the food tax again, that will just be really difficult for us. So we have all of these things that we have to balance. If we do go with a bond for the streets or for anything else, eventually the liner, we will have Prop -- which is now called Prop 479, which got passed yesterday and it will be on the ballot in November. That's a continuation, it's not as bad for -- we've been paying that tax for 40 years. So hopefully that will not be a detriment. But when we do get together on the 16th to talk about the streets, we should keep all these things in mind. We have a responsibility to everybody and we're going to do the best we can to balance all this. And we appreciate the sentiments of Councilwoman Kalivianakis, because -- and we all think that, but we also all know that we live here, our families are here, and we have a responsibility to make it a good, fun place and profitable for our businesses. So we're doing the best we can. We welcome everybody's input. Staff, anything that people that are listening have ideas, we're all ears and we're all in the same boat here. So there isn't anything else, I Page 65 of 66 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS NOVEMBER 2, 2023 WORK SESSION - COUNCIL RETREAT think, Rachael? GOODWIN: No. I was just, I applaud you guys for staying on track. I thought we were on -- I was like, oh, no, we were goners. But I applaud you guys. I thank you for your time and your input on these items. Again, they help direct staff to know what and where to invest time and resources. This is sort of a wild card. I called it the wild card in house. I was like, let us know if there's other things that you want to see. Otherwise, these are where we will do and then bring back the budget process in February and continue down that road. So I appreciate it. Thank you all very, very much. MAYOR DICKEY: And before our retreat in February, watch this video so we'll know what we already said. We don't have to say it again. With that, we are adjourned. Page 66 of 66 Having no further business, Mayor Ginny Dickey adjourned the Work Session — Council Retreat Meeting of the Fountain Hills Town Council held on November 2, 2023, at 11:42 a.m. ATTEST AND PREPARED BY: TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS 1Gin Dick , Mayor 4A,‘, D iLke. ___.---CindG. Mendenhall, Town Clerk CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Work Session — Council Retreat Meeting held by the Town Council of Fountain Hills in the Town Hall Council Chambers on the 2nd day of November 2023. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. 5th day of December 2023. nda G. Mendenhall, Town Clerk