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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2024.0117.TCRM.MinutesTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE REGULAR MEETING OF THE FOUNTAIN HILLS TOWN COUNCIL JANUARY 17, 2023 A Regular Meeting of the Fountain Hills Town Council was convened at 16705 E. Avenue of the Fountains in open and public session at 5:30 p.m. Members Present: Mayor Ginny Dickey: Vice Mayor Sharron Grzybowski; Councilmember Gerry Friedel; Councilmember Peggy McMahon; Councilmember Brenda J. Kalivianakis; Councilmember Hannah Toth; Councilmember Allen Skillicorn Staff Present: Town Manager Rachael Goodwin; Town Attorney Aaron D. Arnson; Town Clerk Linda Mendenhall Audience: Approximately One Hundred sixty-eight members of the public were present. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Post -Production File Town of Fountain Hills Town Council Meeting Minutes January 17, 2024 Transcription Provided By: eScribers, LLC Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings. Page 1 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES MAYOR DICKEY: Good evening everyone. Thank you for coming. We're happy to have you all here. Please stand for the pledge. And if you choose to, please stay up for the invocation. ALL: I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. MAYOR DICKEY: Thanks so much. Kirk Kaiser from Fountain Hills. KAISER: Let us pray. Most triumphant and loving God. We come here tonight to discuss town business. We know that where two or three have gathered in your name, you are there. As we gather, may you be honored and glorified as the government is on your shoulders. So we ask that we, the people, of the people, and by the people assembled here tonight, stretch forth your hand of favor and increase our faith, because you remind us that all things are possible for those that dare to believe, for we still believe that the best is yet to come. Now receive all your honor, your glory, and your power forever in Jesus' name. Amen. ALL: Amen. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Roll call, please. MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey? MAYOR DICKEY: Here. MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Present. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? FRIEDEL: Present. MENDENHALL: Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: Here. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Here. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Toth? TOTH: Here. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Skillicorn? Page 2 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES SKILLICORN: Here. MENDENHALL: Anyone wishing to address the council regarding items listed on the agenda or under call to the public, should fill out a request to comment card located in the back of the council chambers and hand it to the town clerk prior to consideration of that agenda item. When your name is called, please approach the podium, speak into the microphone and state your name for the public record. Please limit your comments to three minutes. It is the policy of the mayor and council to not comment on items brought forth under call to the public. However, staff can be directed to report back to the council at a future date or to schedule items raised for a future council agenda. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you, Linda. I'm going to make a little bit of an announcement first, because tonight we have Stellar Students here. We have three proclamations with special guests, and we have our poetry contest winners here, and of course, the rezoning item. So these items and all of these folks have drawn a lot of interest. And as you can see, we have a packed house. And after we announce the contest winners and the Stellar Students and do the proclamations, though, we're likely to see some space opening up, so you can probably find a seat. So please hang tight with us and we expect more room to become available. I think we also Iivestream out in the lobby, so if you feel like you would like to go out there, you can watch from there. And also obviously from at home on Channel 11 and on YouTube. So we're going to begin now with our usual reports from our town manager and council. GOODWIN: Great. Thanks, Mayor. Thanks, everybody, for being here. I'll be pretty quick since I know we have a lot to get through. As you know, we haven't had a council meeting since before the holiday season, so I did want to give a little bit of recognition to our holiday program, our annual Light Up the Town, which is our driving holiday map of all of our decorated homes in the community. We had over 30 homes participate. And I'm really impressed that we had over 18,000 views on the map. So there was a lot of holiday cheer going on here. So Page 3 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES congratulations. That's a great program. Another highlight during that time was the onboarding of the Fountain Hills Fire Department. They are 17 days strong as our official town fire department. So we are very excited about that. That transition has gone very smooth and has been a very exciting highlight. One of many for 2024. A note, one week from today is our annual expo at the community center. That is held from 3 to 5. It's free for all of our locals and visitors. It's a great way to find your opportunity to get involved, whether that is a club, whether that is a group, whether that is a civic organization. There's Tots of different things. There's more than 80 groups that will be participating. So if you're interested in being involved in the town in some way or form, that's a great way to check out all the things going on. And lastly, we -- as many of you know, our CFO director David Pock will be leaving us later this year. He's going to be relocating with his family out of state. And while we are very disappointed of that, we have been taking a proactive approach to bring his replacement on board. And I'd like to introduce Paul Soldinger. Paul is way back there somewhere in this crowd. Today's Paul's second day with us. But you're going to be seeing Paul as we move through our budget process this year. He's going to be sort of director of parks' right-hand man, so to speak, as we move through the spring. So we'll look forward to what he can do with us and bringing him on board. So with that, those are all my updates. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. GOODWIN: Thank you. TOTH: I have no report tonight, Mayor, but I'm looking forward to all the festivities tonight. Hope everyone had a great Christmas and a happy New Year. MAYOR DICKEY: Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: The state legislature started meeting again and that means our weekly call started with the Arizona League of Cities and Towns. I did want to say thank you to the new Fountain Hills Fire Department for our T-shirts, which were super cool. Although I am concerned you're going to ask me to be like, back up, back up, back up to Page 4 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES respond. And I'm going to tell you, I don't do other people's blood, so I might not be the best person to show up. Just putting that out there in the universe now. Also, it's our favorite day of the month, Hannah and mine. It's Stellar Student Day. We love today. It is so much fun to have you guys here. I will say usually I ask you guys to stay afterwards, but I've seen the behavior of some of these adults on social media the past couple of months, and I'm going to suggest this might not be a good one for you to stay for. Maybe come back to another one where we're all a little better behaved. But thanks for coming. We appreciate you guys being here and congratulations to all of you. FRIEDEL: Thank you, Mayor. Just one quick announcement. February is teen dating domestic violence month, and we'll have some links that I'll share with our town staff. And we'll be reading a proclamation next month to recognize that. Thank you, Mayor. MAYOR DICKEY: Great. Thank you. Councilwoman? MCMAHON: Good evening, everybody. Since we have a packed house and a full agenda, for the economy of time I'm just going to say happy New Year and thank you for attending. KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Hello, everybody. Thank you for coming. Wow, this is really amazing. All the people on YouTube, livestreaming, and Cox Channel 11, welcome to our meeting. If you could be here, you'd see it's a packed house. Just a couple of things. As part of my duties, I'm on the public safety, military affairs, and courts committee. The Council on Foreign Relations just issued their 2023 year in review report, which I read. Quite a year. I have a feeling that 2024 is even going to be more monumental. So we'll wait and see. Also, I'm on the pedestrians and streets committee, which we had a meeting with the mayor, Peggy, our town engineer, and other select staff; it's an honor to be on that committee. When people report anything from excessive speeding to any safety problems in our pedestrian walkways and our traffic areas, they notify the town, and we personally look at every single issue and we discuss it. We might put a speed truck out there or whatever. This was our agenda. And as you can see, a single space and it's packed. And so we're looking out for the people's safety and their street safety. Page 5 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Also our Fountain Hills Cares, I attended that as well with the mayor and Councilwoman McMahon. We are going to have a meeting on March 21st, 2024, at the community center. The topic is going to be civility, being civil in Fountain Hills. That's an important issue. We have a gem of a town. We have a beautiful place. We have beautiful views, beautiful hiking trails. You can always -- we just need to get along a little better. So that'll be there. I hope everybody can attend. It's going to be something that will be very meaningful. Lastly, and I'll try to keep it quick. We are going to have the kite festival this year. It's going to be on March 19th at Fountain Park. It's hosted by the Pakistan Information and Cultural association, PICO. The kite festival is a seasonal event celebrating the end of winter and welcoming spring. The kite festival is a major and most colorful event. And so like I said, that will be upcoming. It's a great event. They have a lot of food, kite flying, and camaraderie, and so I hope everyone can attend. Thanks for being here. That's all I have. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Councilman? SKILLICORN: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Welcome, Fountain Hills. It looks like we have like ten percent of the whole town here, which is fabulous. And it was mentioned that our last meeting was before Christmas and stuff. So I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas and safe New Year's. And I did have an opportunity to experience the Christmas lights. And I did not only follow the map, but there is some houses that weren't on the map which were fabulous. Next year you guys got to get on the map. You probably know who you are. Since then, there's been a number of ribbon cuttings, I've had an opportunity to attend a few. I did hit the Wine Walk that was last week, and it was amazing seeing a bunch of businesses that were just really you know, showing off. It was such a great thing. Last week, there was a Greater Phoenix Economic Council meeting that I was able to take part in, which was a great update of what's going on in the greater Phoenix area in the economic forecasts. Just this week, I was able to meet with the of the Webelo Scouts, the 848 Pack, and also Page 6 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES the Boy Scouts, the 440 pack. And of course, Monday was Martin Luther King Day. And I kind of want to just, very quickly, everyone is very familiar with the "I have a dream," and that really the, "I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation where we will not be judged by the color of our skin, but by the content of their character". Everyone knows that part, right? But there's a couple other things that are in that speech. And it's very, very quick here. And I'm just going to -- so there is a there's a quote in there, "Every valley shall be exalted, every mountain and hill shall be made low, and every crooked creek shall be made straight and the rough places plain". That's right out of Isaiah 44 through 5, right from Martin Luther King's speech. And there's another one here. "Weeping may stay for the night, but rejoicing comes in the morning". And that is actually from Psalm 35. And those are just a couple parts of that, "I have a dream" speech that I've had opportunity to read through the years over and over again, and especially the students read that speech, watch it on video. There's such a great -- and there's more into it than that. But don't just get stopped by that one little spot. Take it all in. And that concludes my report for tonight. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you, Councilman. Yes, I had a special visit with Chief Ott and some personnel on New Year's Day. It was their first day. Our partners, Scottsdale Fire, lost a captain due to a job -related cancer. And Capt. Ewell was married with four kids. And I was proud of my son, Brian. He was part of the honor guard. And that was on TV yesterday. I don't know if you had a chance to see it, but it was very moving. Condolences to all because they obviously are our partners, and condolences to you, Chief. We are already practicing our mutual aid with Scottsdale. The agreement will probably be on our next meeting. But I had the chance to see some Fountain Hills Fire and Scottsdale fire trucks at one scene, and so that was a really good thing to see. Attended chamber breakfast. We had a meeting with the Maricopa County Attorney's Office. I was invited to attend a update by Senator Mark Kelly. I was also at the Sheriff Penzone County event where -- a Board of Supervisors. It was a like a farewell. They're going to be taking applications until Friday. At this point Chief Deputy Russ Skinner is Page 7 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES the interim sheriff for MCSO, and that's our law enforcement. Met with my East Valley mayors quarterly meeting. Spoke at an HOA gathering. There was a really neat ribbon cutting you were mentioning. That was at Safeway and the high school band was there. And GPEC, that economic snapshot, I think that's what you were talking about, right? And a league legislative update. And then, last, just want to invite you to the State of the Town, which will be on the 31st of this month, on Wednesday early, 7:30 in the morning. But we have breakfast and we'll probably start at 8. So you're all invited for that. Now we go right into our Stellar Students, which is the first item in this activity. So the way we do this, kids, is I read your name, I read what your teachers or your principal said about you. Angela over there will give you your certificate. You gather up here, and then when you're all done, we'll come down and get a picture. So we start with the Little Falcons. And the Little Falcons preschool, our first one is LahtiMae Guilliam. Is she here, LahtiMae Guilliam? Come on up. Go to that pretty lady right there. She's going to give you a little certificate. LahtiMae. Oh my gosh. "Lahti is our newest addition and has had a fast and successful transition into the three- year -old room. She's eager to come to school every day with the biggest smile on her face. She thrives on our classroom routine, and she's an excellent Falcon and demonstrates the Falcon way." That's LahtiMae. Yay, Lahti. Our next Little Falcon is Anderson Di Raffaele. Is Anderson here? All right. Come on up. Keep her company. "Anderson demonstrates all the characteristics of a great Falcon leader. He is kind, responsible, respectful. Anderson is a great addition to our classroom and has a huge heart. Anderson gets very excited to come to Little Falcons Preschool, and sometimes he's even a little sad on the days they don't have school." So that's Anderson. Okay. We're going to move up to McDowell Mountain and Elliot Baggett. It's Elliot here? Elliot, come on up. "Elliot is always a stellar student in the STEM classroom, in a regular classroom, and the whole school for that matter. She's just an incredibly hard worker and does her best all the time. She's an amazing friend to others and is the first Page 8 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES one to offer help whenever it's needed. She's so bright and creative, and I love to watch when she comes up within the challenges that she masters. She's one of those students who just seems to enjoy learning and her teachers just love that." Thank you, Elliot, for being a stellar example of the Falcon Way. Your teachers cannot wait to watch and see how your future unfolds and the amazing things you will accomplish. Elliot. McDowell Mountain. We have Jacob Langner. Is Jacob here? Oh, come on up, Jacob. "Jacob is a perfect example of a stellar student. He's kind gentle nature and amazing, positive attitude make him a delight in class. Not only does he always do his very best in his academic schoolwork, but he's extremely polite and considerate of others." Oh wow. "Jacob is ready and willing to help anyone in need, students and teachers alike. He tackles any challenge he's given in STEM class and always with a smile on his face. I've watched Jacob grow and mature since he was in kindergarten and couldn't be prouder of this young man he's become. Thank you, Jacob, for demonstrating all the pillars of the Falcon Way." Jacob. Okay. We're moving up to the middle school. Mila Holmes, is Mila here? Come on up. "Mila is a sweet young lady who always does her best. She's friendly and outgoing. She's not afraid to ask questions and ask and give help. She's a conscientious student, a hard worker, and always completes high quality work. She's a pleasure to have in class." Mila Holmes. Next from the middle school, we have Jaxon LaGiglia. Is Jackson here? All right. Come on up, Jackson. "Jackson is an amazing young man. He's a super student that goes above and beyond with all of his work. He's willing to participate in class and completes his work in a timely manner. He's kind and a great example representing Fountain Hills Middle School by being responsible, respectful, and kind." Jackson. All right. Now we're in high school. Mya Hinton is Mya here? Yeah. Come on up. "Maya, academically, she is a very gifted student. She works hard to improve her skills and she turns in work of utmost quality. She's also artistically talented and shares her artwork freely, as she demonstrated by making vibrant spirit signs for the girls' basketball team. She's a quiet leader who consistently adheres to the tenets of PBIs." Page 9 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Maya Hinton. And I think we have a brother here from the high school. Maddox LaGiglia. Is Maddox here? Very good. "Maddox has excellent attendance and he's very studious about his online courses. I watch him take notes for his classes, and he's shown these really thorough notes to me. He's super polite and super friendly." Congratulations, Maddox. Okay, guys, we have to get together a little bit. You can stay. Stay. Stay, stay. Please stay. All right. Look at the cameras. LARSEN: Squeeze in. MAYOR DICKEY: Squeeze. Squeeze, squeeze. Thank you, guys. Alrighty. Thank you. [Pause] MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you everyone. Congratulations. Our next item is a proclamation in support of Israel and condemning all acts of terrorism. This item was brought to our attention by Councilman Gerry Friedel, and he's going to take it from here. FRIEDEL: Thank you mayor. Is Rabbi Mendy in the audience? No? Well, I'll read the proclamation and we'll make sure we get it to him. But it's a great honor for me to be able to do this, to show that the town is supporting Israel and our Jewish community here in town. So I'll start out with the proclamation. This is to support Israel and condemning acts of all terrorism. "Whereas the town of Fountain Hills recognizes the deep and longstanding friendship between the United States and Israel, built on shared values of democracy, freedom, and respect for human life. "And whereas the town of Fountain Hills condemns in the strongest possible terms all act of terrorism, both foreign and domestic, against innocent civilians. "And whereas we firmly believe that all nations have the right to live in peace and security within their borders, free from the threat of violence and intimidation. "And whereas the town of Fountain Hills stands in solidarity with the People of Israel in their ongoing struggle against terrorism and their tireless pursuit of peace. "Now, therefore, Mayor Ginny Dickey and the council of the Town of Fountain Hills do Page 10 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES hereby proclaim their unwavering support for the State of Israel and steadfast commitment to combating terrorism in all of its forms and urge citizens to remain vigilant against extremism and intolerance, and stand up for the values of peace, justice, human dignity that bind us all together." And then this is signed by the mayor. So we'll make sure that this gets to the rabbi and his congregation. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you so much. Our next proclamation is the designation of the week of January 15th as Martin Luther King Jr. Week. And this was about a year in the making. Right, Councilwoman? And I'm going to hand it off to you. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. And I just want to thank the mayor and this council and staff for just being so supportive of this effort that we've been working on for a year. I'd also like to extend a warm welcome to our invited guests here tonight. Invited was the vice mayor of Chandler, OD Harris, who's sitting in the front row. Councilmember Christine Ellis, who serves honorably on the Chandler City Council. And former Councilman Scott September, who was on the Gilbert City council. Thank you all for being here. The proclamation reads as such: "Whereas Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. devoted his life advancing equality, social justice and opportunity for all and challenged Americans to participate in the never-ending work of building a more perfect union. "Whereas Dr. King's tireless leadership throughout nonviolent resistance, including the Montgomery Bus Boycott and the March on Washington, ignited a nationwide movement that forever changed the course of American history. "Whereas Dr. King's most powerful and enduring message was delivered on August 28th, 1963, in his iconic "I Have a Dream" speech, which he called for an America where individuals would be judged not by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character. "Whereas Dr. King's legacy continues to inspire civil rights activism and ongoing efforts to build a just society with equal rights and equal opportunities for all Americans. "Whereas the third Monday in January is designated as a national holiday in Page 11 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES remembrance of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.'s birthday. "And whereas, the town of Fountain Hills honors Dr. King's courageous leadership and the civil rights movement and his vision of hope and justice for the future. "Now, therefore, Mayor Ginny Dickey and this council of Fountain Hills, Arizona, do hereby proclaim the week of January 5th, 2024, as Martin Luther King, Jr. Week in the town of Fountain Hills, and call upon all residents to commemorate this week through community service and activities that promote Dr. King's ideals of racial equality, inclusion, understanding, and social justice." Proclaimed the 17th day of January, signed by the Honorable Ginny Dickey and attested to by our clerk, Linda Mendenhall. And that's not all. We had the fortunate participation of the Fountain Hills Unified School District, and again, this council and mayor to put together a poetry contest to honor and commemorate the special occasion. The poems were written, they were judged, and we have the winners here in the front row. And they are going to read their poems to us tonight. Thank you, guys for coming. First is Isaac Guerrero Reyes, age nine. Isaac? Say hello. Oh, there we go. Oh, there we go. Read it right into there. REYES: His dream lives on about how he wanted everyone you see to live together peacefully. We're human, you and me, so let's be treated equally. KALIVIANAKIS: Next is going to be Vivian Thomas. Vivian? KOESTER THOMAS: In a land of injustice arose a man named Martin, courageous and strong, with a heart as warm as the sun. Standing up to the hate, he created hope for others. With a powerful voice and a heart filled with love, Martin lit a flame in the darkness of injustice. He would stand for rightfulness and give unity. We shall remember his hope and power to care and love for those who suffered. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. Hello. Hello. Yeah. Thanks. Okay. Lastly, will be the eldest of our contestants, Charles Splittorff. Charles? SPLITTORFF: Martin Luther King. Jr and what he means to me. It was a quiet morning on April 4th, 1968, decrepit and worn, aged classrooms filled with lively students in a Page 12 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES dark, dull environment, separated from others because of their color. And for what reason does this call for hate? Were these not humans too? Whites separated from the blacks as if their humanity is not worth an ounce of their time. Why was it like this? Even in the darkness of the world, something was going to change. This had to change. Martin Luther King, a child of God who moved many in love for one another for the future of men, women and children. Through a confused culture, Dr. King led people through great lengths to see what life could be like if we had unity and compassion. He was a leader for a nation that was broken into two pieces. MAYOR DICKEY: Hey, Brenda. You want the council people to come up for a photo, too, and you can present? KALIVIANAKIS: Excuse me? MAYOR DICKEY: You want the council people to come up for a photo and you can present? KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. MAYOR DICKEY: Come on up. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, Councilmembers. MAYOR DICKEY: Of course. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Come back anytime. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: And one more. All right. Yeah. Thank you so much. We have one other proclamation. It was requested by Not In Our City. The executive director is Kevin Campbell; a Chandler councilman, Mark Stewart; and also former Councilman Scott September from Gilbert, who is still here. So I'm going to go down and present this right now. Come on. You get to hold it and I get to read. I'm so glad you're here. All right. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It was a perfect time. MAYOR DICKEY: Then you'll get to say a few words. Is it not working? It is not working. It was on. Oh, there we go. Okay. All right. Thank you very much for coming. We really appreciate you coming to Fountain Hills. And as I said, come back any time. Page 13 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES "Whereas human trafficking is a global plague that impacts millions of people every year, including tens of thousands of Americans. And whereas the United States ranks as one of the worst countries globally for human trafficking, and Arizona ranks in the top fifteen states with the highest rate of human trafficking per capita. And whereas, human trafficking impacts people across all demographics and ages, including teenagers and children. And whereas, the battle against human trafficking includes supporting efforts in schools, churches, nonprofits, law enforcement, and businesses to prevent human trafficking, intervene, disrupt, and dismantle the syndicates, and provide resources to and support for victims of human trafficking. And whereas, the Town of Fountain Hills joins these groups, plus federal and state coalitions, and the NotlnOurCity.org movement in our commitment to increase public awareness of the human trafficking epidemic that impacts our community, our state, our nation, and the world. So therefore, I, Ginny Dickey, mayor, hereby do proclaim the month of January as Anti -Human Trafficking Month and urge all to work together to eliminate trafficking from our community and support the efforts of front-line organizations and law enforcement in their battle against human trafficking. And take a stand to say, not in our city." SEPTEMBER: Thank you. Thank you mayor. My name is Scott September. As the mayor said earlier, I'm a recovering council member from Gilbert. My service to Gilbert ended about a year ago, but my service to the community has not. I'm a part of the Not In Our City organization, and we are a front-line organization that helps provide awareness for this issue. Because too many families and too many towns and cities aren't aware of what's happening. And so that's one of the things that we do. We have an annual night of hope. This year it's going to be February 18th at the Grand Canyon University basketball arena. If you go to notinourcity.org, you can learn more and you can participate. You can join elected officials, law enforcement, community leaders, and churches to be there and to take a stand and say, not in our city. And I want to thank the mayor and this council for making this proclamation. When a city makes a proclamation, they're saying something. They're taking a stand. Page 14 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES And it's very powerful. And we appreciate you saying that. It says something about who Fountain Hills is as a community and who Fountain Hills is as a city in this council. And so we appreciate it. Thank you very much. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you so much. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Appreciate you. MAYOR DICKEY: Oh, yes. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Wait, Mayor, hold on. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Thank you for being my -- UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Yes. MAYOR DICKEY: Chandler. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: He lives in Chandler. MAYOR DICKEY: We used to live in Gilbert, so there you go. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: So we are actually the councilmember for your son in Chandler? MAYOR DICKEY: Yes. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: All right. Thanks, Mayor. Take care. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you so much. Thank you, council. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Thank you, council. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. Thank you everyone so much. We next go to call to the public. And I'm just going to remind, because we have a lot going on tonight. So as we get started, I wanted to remind everyone that call to the public is for items that aren't on the agenda. So if you're here to speak on the rezoning, please hold your comment until we get to that agenda item. We would appreciate that. Do we have any cards? MENDENHALL: Yes, Mayor, we do. We have three comment cards. And so I will say in order of what -- of when you need to come up. Okay? So we'll have more on that -- up to that. So first, we're going to start out with Barry Wolborsky. After Barry will be Larry Page 15 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Myers, and then Lori Troller. WOLBORSKY: Barry Wolborsky, resident of Fountain Hills. So this council has members who strongly support business. It has members who strongly support tourism. It has members who strongly support getting more industry. What I think is missing from this council is members who support the homeowners. When homeowners complained about Justin Weldy's unsightly material dumps in town, the council did nothing. When homeowners adjacent to the Dark Sky project complained about the construction impact, the council did nothing. When the homeowners complained about the noise at Saguaro and Gunsight, the council did nothing. After all, the homeowners are responsible for the majority of revenues in Fountain Hills from their sales tax revenue and from their property taxes, which go to the state and county and then come back to the town. Homeowners are also the largest voting bloc in Fountain Hills, yet there is no one on the council who I can truly say represents the homeowners. But, occasionally, the homeowners have taken matters into their own hands, as they did with Daybreak in 2019, using the referendum process to override the council that ignores them. Since there are no advocates for the homeowners, then maybe they have to take the referendum process again about the rezone and the Target shopping center for high -density apartment buildings. By the way, back east, they call these types of buildings the projects. And they're not well liked. MAYOR DICKEY: Don't bring me to the next thing I'm going to announce. I was waiting till we get to the item, but we will not have outbursts tonight. Larry? MEYERS: Mayor and council, while my comments here may reference an agenda item, they do not get to the heart of any agenda item issue. Quite some time ago, a development agreement was struck. A contract, as it were, for multiple phases of high - density housing within the downtown known as Park Place. Two buildings were constructed with hundreds of apartments. Additional buildings with hundreds of apartments were agreed to, with one building containing commercial on the first floor, Page 16 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES which is mixed -use to be constructed on the remaining land parcel down the Avenue and along Saguaro. There are persons sitting on the dais as we speak, that blocked the advancement of the second phase for over a year, to the point that it ended up in court, for whatever reason; perceived bad dealing, unscrupulous behavior, whatever. I'm not privy to it. Unfortunately, interest rates and financing became much more difficult during that time period, and as a result, the bare dirt with an ugly chain fence around what has now graced the downtown to this day. Along with that, when and if the second phase of the project comes to fruition, those higher costs will inevitably be passed on to renters. All this was done to a local developer. While massive changes to our ordinance are being considered without getting all the questions answered by an out -of -the -state developer. Further, the out- of-state developer's currently in litigation in superior court for, I guess, alleged bad dealing and unscrupulous behavior. I'm having a hard time with how the town gives harsher treatment to a local developer who answered all the questions, then we give to the out-of-state developer who answers none of the questions. Also, unfortunately, all the things that were highlighted as benefits for the new agenda item that will come later, Park Place fits them all. Walkability; less cars; close to proximity to retail, restaurant, businesses; and not to mention the vibrancy of the downtown. So I don't know why we stopped his other phases. You all might, I don't. So my question really is how many apartments is right for Fountain Hills? That number has never been spoken. And so with that, I would like to just ask the council to consider making the same treatment available to all developers that they made to our local developer, or maybe flip it and treat our local developer with a little more fairness. And I thank you for your time. TROLLER: Good evening, Mayor, council, Linda, Rachael, Aaron. Lori Troller. In 15 days till the codification of when we get the SWF ordinance completed, the only way to legally protect this town from telecoms coming in and giving us one application that will have over 2,000 requests, and we're going to have to approve those. There's going to Page 17 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES be -- we'll have no choice after January 1st between the time we get that and the codification. So if we don't get this now, there's really no point in doing the ordinance. We need to extend the moratorium. Regardless of how Aaron interprets the law, moratoriums are very legal. And I would reference you to a House Resolution Number 3557 telecoms are trying to pass which exactly does that; makes moratoriums illegal. So they wouldn't be fighting and paying millions of dollars to do it if it was illegal already. They are very legal. So please extend the moratorium. I would suggest till August 30th, 2024. Otherwise, load up the telecoms with the darts, open your arms up, and call yourself a dart board. Thanks. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you very much, everyone. We go to our consent agenda now. Is there a motion to approve? GRZYBOWSKI: Motion to approve. SKILLICORN: Second. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Roll call, please? MENDENHALL: Councilmember Toth? TOTH: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? FRIEDEL: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: Aye. MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Aye. MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey? MAYOR DICKEY: Aye. Thanks, everyone. Page 18 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES SKILLICORN: Madam Mayor, I have a quick point of order. Okay. And this is partially for council and also for attorney. The upcoming hearing, is this legislative or is this quasi- judicial? ARNSON: You mean the upcoming hearing on the Target Center rezone item? SKILLICORN: Yeah. On the site specific plan. ARNSON: It's a legislative matter. SKILLICORN: It's a legislative matter? Is anything we're doing tonight quasi-judicial? ARNSON: Is anything we're doing tonight quasi-judicial? SKILLICORN: Yeah. ARNSON: You mean from the upcoming hearings? SKILLICORN: Yeah. I want to make sure the hearings are fair. We want to be respectful if someone wants to invest in our town, but we want to make sure it's fair for both the people and the developer. ARNSON: Most certainly. And whether quasi-judicial or legislative, I mean, I would anticipate the hearings would be fair. Certainly. SKILLICORN: Okay. Well, and part of my curiosity is if people on this council have ex parte communications with them and need to recuse themselves or have taken campaign contributions from them and need to recuse themselves. And I'm just curious if people on the record, have they had ex parte communications, have they taken contributions from the developer? ARNSON: And I would think that if there's a conflict of interest, we've given instruction to the council before and to members of our boards and commissions that if there's a conflict of interest, they know how to disclose it in the public records of the town and how to declare a conflict. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Thank you. We're on our first regular agenda item, which is the rezoning. I just wanted to say a few things before we get started so that everyone knows what we're expecting. Because of the likely numbers, obviously, of people speaking, we're going to be enforcing our rules strictly so everyone has a chance. Everybody please speak through the chair and wait to be recognized. Once an agenda Page 19 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES item starts, the clerk will not accept any more cards. These are all rules that we have, but sometimes we like to be a little bit more flexible. Everyone has the chance to speak once on each agenda item for up to three minutes. Speakers may not reserve time or transfer unused time to another. Like I was just saying, if you've come to our meetings a lot, I usually like to give a little extra time, but with the number of speakers, it's just not going to be possible tonight. Feelings are strong, of course, on both sides of this issue. We're going to hear everyone out and be respectful of it. A lot of people have worked hard to prepare for tonight in all ways. And again, you applauded before, I just wanted to remind you that we will not be doing that. I don't want to have to recess or do anything like that. So please refrain from disrupting any of the speakers, the staff, the applicants, each other, or the council. So again, whether you agree or disagree with an item, we're going to follow the rules and we're going to be respectful and I appreciate it. And process -wise a little bit, what you were just mentioning, I'm going to open the hearing. We'll start with the presentations by Development Director Wesley, followed by the economic development director, Amanda Jacobs, and then the applicants. I will ask council to please jot down your comments or questions during the presentations so that they can get through that. And then we will be able to ask them during our discussions. And as you know, sometimes you get your question answered if we wait for the whole presentation. We'll then take public comment. I'll close the hearing. Staff and applicants can respond. The council can start discussion and they can ask questions of staff and the applicants. And a motion can be made at any time but does not preclude council discussion or questions. So that's the process. That's the way we'll do this tonight. And hopefully we'll be orderly and respectful and everybody will feel like they've been heard. So we are going to start. Rachael, if you'd like to kick it off, please? G00DWIN: Absolutely. I'm going to ask Director Wesley to step forward and begin his presentation. WESLEY: Good evening, Mayor and council. I do have a presentation this evening to Page 20 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES guide you through some of the questions and the issues associated with this proposed rezoning. So to start with, just to make one thing clear, because there was a little bit of confusion when we were at the planning and zoning commission. There are two separate requests, each one is independent of each other. The western request, the Villages at Four Peaks P.A.D., has a request to rezone that portion, 6.7 acres from its current C-2 P.U.D. IND-1, to this Four Peaks P.A.D. -- Villages at Four Peaks P.A.D. And then the eastern portion, a separate request really just dealing with signage on that parcel. Rezones it to a Four Peaks Plaza P.A.D. So again, two separate things, but they are adjacent to each other. I'll be covering the first item of this evening, the rezone for the Villages at Four Peaks. A little timeline associated with this. We received the application for this request in March of last year. The standard timeline for an application received on that date would have had it before you in August. However, the applicant took a lot of time working with staff to delve into the requests and respond to some staff comments and concerns and continue to refine the request. Ordinance requires them to hold at least one citizen participation meeting. They held two when they were ready then, and staff was ready to move forward to the public review process. Notice was provided in November for the December P&Z and the January council hearings. The request is for a 316-unit wrap residential community. What that means is it will have an embedded parking structure with these apartment units wrapped around that parking structure, rather than having a lot of surface level parking. Four stories, one-, two- and three -bedrooms, 561 parking spaces. It will have two interior courtyards with perimeter landscaping, then a pedestrian mall/connectivity area associated with the Four Peaks Plaza. General plan for this area designation. The character area is the Shea corridor designation. We'II talk more about that in a little bit. Again site showing the location for this specific request there along Technology and Shea Boulevard at that southeast corner. So west of the Target center, that strip area, and a couple of outparcels. Here's a representation of the proposed site plan for the building. And you see the Page 21 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES parking structure wrapped by the building. Main entry, here facing Shea. Main entry into the parking structure off of Technology. See the interior courtyard areas and then this pedestrian area along here that helps provide connectivity from the different exits so that it has a pedestrian walk and then can also connect over to the Target Plaza. Some views of the facility, this one looking from Shea Boulevard towards the main entry. You can see the architectural design and shows materials there in the box that will be used. Here's a view from Technology to the entry into the parking structure. And then one from the adjacent shopping plaza to that pedestrian connection. So I've heard a lot of discussion questions about P.A.D. and what does that mean. So I wanted to cover that for a few moments before we go into the request itself. So P.A.D. or planned area development, is a base zoning district. Just like R1-10 is a base zoning district or C-2 or IND-1, or any of our other zoning districts we have. It is a district in and of itself. This is different than we used to have years ago when this property was previously zoned to its current designation. We had a P.U.D. or planned unit development overlay district. With that, you use an existing zoning district, in this case a C-2, and then you use the P.U.D. as an overlay to allow modifications to the standards in that underlying district. That was done away with several years ago. And so now we have the P.A.D. And so part of this is bringing the zoning into our current definitions and current districts available within our zoning ordinance. So this request will create basically a unique zoning district that will be called the Villages of Four Peaks P.A.D. And that's what you'll see on our zoning maps, if this were to get approved instead of a, again, a C- 2 or a whatever, that will be the designation for the zoning of The Village of Four Peaks P.A.D. It will have its own standards as they get adopted through the council, again, if that is what the council does. To help this process, the P.A.D. typically does reference standards in another zoning district that's similar to what they want to do. So they can say it's like this, but with these modifications or differences. So what are the development standards being requested for this P.A.D.? Uses to be Page 22 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES allowed are residential and the commercial uses similar to the C-2 zoning district. Minimum lot area of 6,000 square feet. Residential will be allowed at one unit per 1,230 gross square feet minimum lot width. Maximum building height of 55. Building length 200 feet setbacks. And then the parking as they calculated it. So as staff looked at this and worked on this with the applicant, we saw three things in terms of their proposed requested development standards that we thought deserved review and evaluation consideration by the P&Z and now by council. I want to go through each of these -- a little bit more information about each one of them. So with regard to the area per unit and the density, again, they're requesting one unit per 1,230 square feet So that equates to about 47 dwelling units per acre. The closest we have to that currently in our zoning ordinance is the R-5, which is 1,740 square feet per unit for approximately 25 units per acre. Park Place is at a similar density to what's being proposed here at 46 units per acre. When we look at the town and our existing development pattern and uses, we see that we have about 81 acres or six -tenths of a percent of the town area developed with multi -family non -condo, and most of those are at four units or Tess. We see that we have about 15 percent of our dwellings are renter occupied. This compares to 30-plus percent when we look at Maricopa County, Arizona, or across the country as a whole. So we're really very low in terms of a percentage of our population that are renters. And when we look at the history of the town, we'll go into this in -- just more in a minute. Multifamily zoning has been significantly reduced from the original plans for Fountain Hills. The general plan has several goals and policies that address some of the things with regard to this request, I've included a couple here. Probably the main one that we support a housing strategy that encourages a broad range of quality housing types to address needs currently and into the future. As I mentioned a minute ago, Fountain Hills in our history has evolved quite a bit with its zoning. We're always adjusting things to respond to market changes, population changes, trying to get that best balance of zones that provide for the uses in the community. Originally planned for around 70,000 population, a lot of commercial Page 23 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES zoning was put in place upfront. But the population has been significantly reduced through rezonings and actual development. A couple of examples. Here we see in kind of the yellow in the upper left area in '79 was zoned R-3 as a medium density residential area. It was changed to R1-10 and developed with kind of a medium lot single family development. The lower right one in the green was originally planned as an R-4 high -density area. It was actually rezoned to an R1-10 single-family development, a much lower density. Also, we have areas that maybe retained their similar zoning, in this case generally R-5s, but not developed with really the density that goes with an R-5 or an R-4 density. So because of that, we didn't really get the population density that was originally expected in the town to go with the amount of commercial development. So again, we strive constantly to adjust zoning as different requests come up to get that optimal mix of land uses that will work together to provide for a vibrant town. Areas with significant multifamily have been reduced through different rezoning actions over the years. Those were just a couple of several examples that could be provided. This particular area along Shea is probably about the only area in town where development of this scale and density could occur to help offset some of the reductions in density that have occurred elsewhere. It's an area that's separated from other lower density residential uses and is along the primary arterial street network, which is good for this type of density. With regard to height. The main parapet line for this proposed development is 49 feet. Maximum height will be 55 feet, with some of the popups for the parapets to provide some articulation to the maximum of the building. In comparison, Park Place was approved with a maximum height of 54 feet. I believe the current buildings top out at about 50 feet at the top of their parapets. CopperWynd P.A.D., known as Adero Scottsdale, was approved at 75 feet of height for phase 1, and 60 and 50 for the upcoming phases. And this particular location, because of the topography, the actual building site compared to Shea Boulevard is lower, and so that building height will not seem quite as significant as it might in other cases. Here's an example of the visual Page 24 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES impact from across the street. And so in the upper right, you're looking out from this property towards the shopping center where the development will be built. And so here it's been put in and so you can see it, but it doesn't really significantly impact that view shed from across the way. The other item was, again, the parking. They're requesting 561 spaces. Park Place was approved with a 20 percent parking reduction. The Pillar P.A.D. was approved with 18 percent reduction of parking onsite, but then also allowed to include the parking on Westby that they added into that mix. So when you combine those, it is a ten percent reduction in parking. This request is asking for 11.9% reduction from what the standard parking would be. We did some research of a variety of areas looking for data about renters and cars, and how much parking they need and found these various examples; particularly in Fountain Hills 55 percent of renters have one vehicle. When we apply those types of numbers at one vehicle basically per unit for half of the units and then two for the remainder, you'd estimate you'd need about 480 parking spaces. If you use one parking space per bedroom, you need around 498 spaces to meet the needs of the residents. Again, they're requesting 561 spaces, so that leaves approximately 60 to 80 spaces for guests. So is that sufficient number of guest parking for this development? That's one space for about every four units, five units; something along that line. Excess parking if it were to occur, would likely occur over on the Target parking lot. Technology is signed for no parking. Obviously, you're not going to park along Shea. So that would be the logical place for any overflow parking to actually happen. So approval of the P.A.D. The ordinance sets forth some criteria for the council to consider and use as their guide for consideration of a P.A.D. And it says that council is to base its decision on: is the plan consistent with the general plan; any applicable specific plan; and does it meet the stated purposes within the P.A.D. district? So many different items from the general plan. I've used a couple earlier in the presentation. The vision statement in the plan has a couple of items I felt applied to consideration of this request, in terms of helping with the economy and providing residents who can help stabilize and invigorate the economy, and also having the variety Page 25 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES of housing options available. And the neighborhood's goal, again, with regard to supporting a broad range of housing types. And the economy goal to attract families and particularly working professionals. With regard to a specific plan. We don't have a specific plan for this area, but we do have the description in the general plan for the Shea corridor character area, and it recognizes there the need to redevelop some of our overbuilt commercial areas and provide some stability, likely through a greater mix of uses and multi -residence that may require greater height. As far as meeting the purpose of the P.A.D. The stated purposes of the P.A.D. are to redevelop the property with quality residential land use, to provide a residential land use that can help provide activity in the center and help reinvigorate the remaining plaza, and also provide housing opportunities for young professionals, empty - nesters and those that want a lock -and -leave type lifestyle. Planning and zoning commission, as you know, reviewed this at their meeting last month. There was a motion made to approve the request, but that did not receive support from the council -- or from the commission, excuse me. Staff does support the recommendation for approval. Feel it's consistent with the general plan. It will continue to find a balance of uses and densities for a thriving community. It's consistent with the character area plan, meets the P.A.D. district purpose, provide a unique redevelopment opportunity for the Plaza and the corridor. Visual impacts are minimized, provides high quality building design materials, and exceeds base standards. There are some stipulations if the council does vote to approve this that would need to be included with that approval, these are listed here and are in your staff report. So that is the end of my presentation. So I believe we're going to go right on to -- okay. Here we go. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. JACOBS: Good evening, Madam Mayor, members of council, members of the audience. Happy new year. I first want to get started. So most of you know -- but I haven't met all 24,000 of our residents. But I've been in local government for over 20 years. It is not typical or best practice with a rezoning case to hear from economic development. Page 26 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES However, on Thursday, December 7th -- so the Thursday before the planning and zoning commission, which is on December llth the chair of the commission asked me to speak. And so to keep with consistency that is why I am presenting. And then, of course, these do have economic impacts. I have several slides that are data, and then we'll go into the recently adopted community economic development strategy. So everyone should be familiar with this, our demographics. Again, won't go through all of it. But looking at the median household of 87,000, the median sale is over 660,000. I am not a mathematician, but those numbers don't add up. And as we've talked with council during the summit last year, I had the opportunity through the Greater Phoenix Economic Council -- that's the regional economic development organization. So GPEC, the EDO, I had the opportunity to meet with site selectors throughout the United States. And one of them came to me and he said, I know that you know this, you've been doing it a long time, but once you fix that, come to us. Because this is an issue. Our major employers, again, you are familiar with are mostly service -based. The annual salary of a service -based employee is over $40,000. Our apartment occupancy. So we've added a little bit more data than what you typically see during my quarterly reports, but showing the number of units, the occupancy rate. And so since I started almost two years ago, the occupancy rate has remained over 90 percent. And it's continued to be a challenge, our supply/demand issue. I shared with you too, personally, as I was going through the interview process and then looking to get a home here in Fountain Hills, I only had a couple of options. Luckily, the stars aligned and I am a Fountain Hills resident. Mayor Dickey was on a call last week -- it sounds like Councilmember Skillicorn was on a call last week with GPEC. And so as we look at to the economics, the inflation, what we're seeing with mortgage rates, that is driving people to rent versus buy because it's just not affordable. We received some comments from the community about when you bring more apartments, you are just bringing retirees and winter visitors. Staff reached out, some to some property owners. Apartments don't always feel willing to share data. I am very Page 27 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES grateful to the current owner of Park Place, who shared this. Again, will not go line by line. But if you look at the demographics and then where it says retired, it's 15.2 percent. And so that is a false statement. I have also shared too, being a renter. When I first came here, people were quite a bit older, were retired. But what has been lovely to see is the change in demographics. And when it comes to ethnicity and age, there are single people, there are young couples, there are families with young kiddos, some of them not quite school age. And so it's been refreshing to see. Our apartment pipeline. So there's been inquiries in regards to -- council has approved some multifamily apartments, and so what does that look like? So you have the apartment names. The number of units are 324. And again, pipeline kind of depends on what we're talking about. So when it says the status, we've got two waiting for submittal. So what that means is when staff -- and this is under the development services department and the permitting division, they will come in with a formal submittal. It will go through an internal review with development services, engineering, fire, et cetera, and if there's comments it gets kicked back. And so as you can see, staff right now is waiting for submittal. And with these two properties it's been over 100 days. So not close to breaking ground anytime soon. If you see the five below, it says waiting to issue. So what that means is we could be waiting for something from the sanitary district. We could be waiting to collect permit fees. So we're in a status of waiting. You can see one is over 306 days. That is almost 365, which is a year. There's one below that that says, N/A. What that means is that applicant chose to use a third -party. So unfortunately staff can't track that data in our system. Below that you will see three properties where no application's been submitted, so we have not received a formal application. I will say that there is one property that reached out in December and are just fine tuning things. But again, until we get a formal application, we cannot divulge that. And again, the N/A is because we don't have any data, it's not being tracked through the system. So again there's 324. I also want to point out that -- thank goodness we live in the United States of America Page 28 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES and we have choice. And so why we show this pipeline, it's not apples to apples to the rezoning that will be before you and when Mr. Morris gets up. So again, when you see eight or five, it's going to be a little different than where I live. It's going to be different than what Park Place is offering, as well as what the applicant is proposing. A little music going on. All right. So now we're going to go into our community economic development strategy, that is CEDS. And we're going to highlight our business attraction. So council unanimously adopted the community economic development strategy in September. I want to point out that it says collaborate with the property owner of Four Peaks Plaza, located in the Shea corridor, to redevelop the commercial center to a mixed -use property. So on my sixth day as the economic development director, I had the opportunity to meet with Sandor. I bring that up because in March, it will be two years. And so change doesn't happen overnight. This was not a rushed process. When I met with Sandor, I asked them, what are your plans? They shared. They were open. They asked me if I had ideas and I said, hold up boys. I've only been on the job for six days. Give me the opportunity to connect with our community members and look at the data. And so over several months, I had the opportunity to meet with hundreds -- again, not our 24,000. And this particular shopping center was brought up. I was told, Amanda, they wanted to bring forth a multifamily property. What can you do to bring that? So looking at the data and talking to our constituents, our residents, our business owners -- and it's wonderful that most of our business owners are actually Fountain Hills residents. But also with my experience in talking with council and talking with our constituents; some of you all checked me out and know where I came from with my almost 20 years -- so 19 years. I had the great pleasure of working with bioscience companies, aerospace companies, hospitals. And then I don't know if you guys have heard of Arizona State University or University of Arizona, but things that they asked of me in that other municipality was, we need diverse housing and we need multifamily. These young professionals that we're bringing up, we need to give them options in order to have that talent attraction. Page 29 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES And so months later, I did follow up with Sandor and said that I was in support of this project. It still took several months for them to do due diligence. One of the Sandor reps was invited last January to our economic development summit and had the opportunity to hear from business leaders, commissioners, residents. And one of the themes that came up -- and you all know I was walking around to make sure I was available to make sure to get deeper conversations, was housing and diverse housing. Before I move off of this bullet point, there has been question about mixed -use property. So some of us are used to mixed -use being vertical and that it just has to be apartments on top and then some commercial on the bottom. That is not true. And again, as professionals, we're used to some of these. I'm not sure how many of you too are native to Arizona -- I am. And so we'll look at horizontal as well, or mixed -uses a variety. And so this is a mixed -use property. Second, exploring opportunities to revitalize and redevelop. I ask you to imagine that if this project goes forward, that you start to breathe life into the commercial, that we start to reimagine the Target center and being vibrant. I ask you to look at -- I've heard that Walgreens has been closed for many, many, many years. Sometimes it's on the market, off the market. Does that motivate them to reopen or to attract somebody else? I've shared with you -- it's in the staff report. I brought it up in the planning and zoning commission a week prior to the planning and zoning commission, a local developer reached out to staff and said, Amanda, John, we've been sitting on property for 20 years, vacant land, commercially zoned. We heard council approved apartments, 316 people. That's demand. We said time out. We still have to go through planning and zoning. We have to go through council. And they said if you move forward with that, we will keep our commercial zoning and we will move forward. We've got ideas for retail, for restaurants. And so let's reimagine. Let's motivate people. Diverse housing opportunities. There's been questions about diverse. So diverse means variety. You can look it up in the dictionary. And then housing, what we mean by that is, again, single-family; could be townhomes, condos. Giving people choices. And so that's what that means. We were specific with multifamily and workforce housing. Page 30 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Some people have questioned workforce housing. Our folks, again, want housing opportunities for the workforce. That's what we mean. That's the intent by this. There are opportunities where some municipalities provide some type of tax incentive or tax rebate that is not this project. We have two more slides. Thanks for hanging in. And so something else. One of our focus areas is business retention and expansion. I have told the council it is not traditional to invite council members into our site visits with the Chamber and myself just because of council manager form of government. But I have invited you to hear from our businesses what they need, and several of you have heard they need housing, they need apartments, they want to be heard. Some of our trends last year was communication. Check. We took care of that. That was our fall and spring guide. Sign code. Check. Temporary signs. Council passed that. And so we're needing a little help, is this workforce available and a variety of housing options? So also received comments. Apartments bring no value. Value can mean a belief. Value can be monetary. As professional experts, we look at the monetary and that is a false statement. So if you look at the first three lines, those are our one-time revenues. Our state shared revenues; annual is over 169,000. So again that is false, there is value. And value in the sense that again, population brings demand. This is my last slide. So I'll ask Mr. Morris to start getting up. But again Mayor and council, economic development does support this. We have talked privately, openly in front of everybody. You have asked where you can help. And so I ask, respectfully, that you pass this item. Put us in the right position to change our major employers. We're excited to have those business. But again, if we want to start attracting more assembly and bioscience companies, we need to fix the diverse housing options. Otherwise you again make it difficult. We talk about open for business, putting handcuffs -- take the handcuffs off of Fountain Hills and please, off of your economic development director. MAYOR DICKEY: Aaron, I'm going to open the hearing now when we hear from the applicant. ARNSON: Sure. Page 31 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES JACOBS: And then, Madam Mayor, we are inviting Mr. Morris, who is the representative for the applicant. Mr. Morris. MORRIS: Hi Mayor, Councilmembers. Jason Morris with the -- Morris on behalf of the applicant. Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here this evening. Obviously, there's great interest in this application and we have a lot of material. But I would say that your staff, both in economic development and planning, have laid a tremendous groundwork and really talked about the recommendations for approval on this site. And I also want to say as a precursor. The applicant appreciates the opportunity to be heard, and they also appreciate the opportunity for the entire town to weigh in on this. And they've been following the comments that have been made both at planning commission, but more importantly, the comments that have been made through your website. I'm sure the comments we will hear this evening. But also having this dialogue has only reaffirmed the applicant's desire to reinvest in the town. They are one of your largest landowners within the town, and at times, some of the dialogue hasn't really encouraged them to be a landowner within the town. But listening to the support, listening to the dialogue, and listening to the encouragement has really led us to this presentation this evening. So thank you. As you're aware from the overview, the Village at Fort Peaks is really a focal point from an arterial roadway. And one of the things from a land use perspective -- and knowing that land use has been my sole profession over these last now 30 years, looking for a location for multifamily that can do the benefit to the surrounding retail, while not being a detriment to any of the surrounding land uses, is an anomaly; it is very difficult. Having done precisely this type of zoning -- and we'll talk about what that looks like in some of the other jurisdictions having done this before, finding a site that's so ideal, so beneficial is rare. But as we'll see from later slides, seeing a site that also includes support from the documents of the town, your general plan, your economic development town is also almost unheard of. The site itself has challenges. It's not a secret that it is largely vacant. We're talking about 65,000 square feet of unoccupied space. That is a major amount of the overall unoccupied retail space within the town Page 32 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES itself. It's a significant number. When you look at the use restrictions that are a part of this. And I'm sure you understand Target owns their parcel. So while Sandor owns the shopping center, they do not include the Target parcel. That is owned by the Target Corporation. Before Target will locate to a site, they must come to an agreement with the underlying landowners as to what the restrictions on that site will be, because they don't want to compete for use, they don't want to compete for circulation, so they deed restrict the property. We'II talk about what some of those deed restrictions are, but they limit the uses the landowner can bring into the balance of the shopping center, and that is important. When we also look at when this shopping center was developed, now going on 25 years ago and what happened to our shopping patterns. All of us recognize -- any of us who have gone to our front door and picked up an Amazon package recognize that our shopping patterns have changed. We need fewer retail square feet to support our shopping needs, and at the same time, the buildings that will exist because of services and other uses are shrinking. They're not growing in size. So that leads to vacancy and it leads to opportunity in this instance. Also the demographics of Fountain Hills itself. We've heard from your staff as to what's happened, both the expectation for the population in Fountain Hills, but also the recent changes and the land use changes that have limited the opportunity for additional population. So all of those things challenge a major shopping center owner. So what does that mean for this site? And we've talked about this before. Target is a great indicator. They are an incredibly successful retailer. They know how to do business. They know how to operate, they know how to advertise, they know how to choose locations, and they know how to be successful. So what does it say when we look at this site and recognize that out of every Target within the State of Arizona, this is the single worst performing Target? I think that says something not only about the needs of the shopping center, but also about the visibility, the signage, and the times. what we are facing as a landowner within Fountain Hills, but also what's happening to the shopping center itself and what the opportunities are. But we can also see some of Page 33 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES the other tenants are equally impaired, and some of that is because of that visibility. But a lot of it is success breeds success. And when a shopping center starts to empty out, it is a tremendous challenge. You're catching a boulder running downhill, and this is an opportunity for the landowner to reinvest to make it successful. I hope I'm not done. With that, we talked about and we referenced some of the use restrictions, retail office. And I mention this because in reading some of the comments from the public and in hearing some of the comments from the public at the last hearing, I think there's a misperception of what can be done on this property today. So irregardless of the existing zoning, retail office and other business office can only be a maximum of ten percent of the total floor area of any other building in this particular shopping center because of the restrictions on it. Warehouse operation and assembly manufacturing are prohibited. So when we talk about, hey, we ought to dream big and just change everything, that's not possible due to the deed restrictions on this property. Training or other educational facilities -- I know I've heard those mentioned. Again, restricted, prohibited. Health spas, gyms; you were allowed one. Grocer restrictions. So many of the things that appear to be solutions aren't even solutions because of the deed restrictions on this property, which cannot be changed without Target's consent. We look at the visibility challenges. Frankly, the grade differential -- the irony of this grade differential is that it works perfectly for multifamily. If you're going up on a site, the idea of being depressed, of being in a bowl, of being below the grade of the roadway is ideal. But being a retailer and not having that visibility, plus having a 75 foot wide drainage easement that's well landscaped, that kills visibility, which kills parking, which kills, ultimately, the ability to shop and the desire to shop. I reference this as well, the general plan. And I'm going to show you some shopping centers that have been saved through exactly what we're proposing here this evening. But in none of those cases did I have the benefit of a general plan for that jurisdiction that calls for precisely what the applicant is proposing. Literally, this town has laid out a road map for this area through your general plan. And it's not just the general plan that you've taken an oath to Page 34 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES uphold. It's also a general plan that just less than a handful of years ago, your own residents voted on and supported. So this is a general plan that has been adopted for this area that specifically calls for the mixture of uses that we're proposing. That is bolstered even further by what we heard Ms. Jacobs talk about, which is your economic development study, which is fresh. These are not documents that were adopted years ago and have been sitting on a shelf. This is from September, and it talks about this site in particular and the uses that are proposed specifically. So where have we done this? Is this a shot in the dark, or has this been successful before? It's been done in jurisdictions in the valley successfully time and time again. These are just examples that my office has been fortunate enough to represent, where new life has been breathed into sites that are over retailed, because the square footage is overbroad for the use in that area. Which we have seen here, you know, whether it's Scottsdale, Mesa, Phoenix, or Chandler, all of them have the same pattern, which is large retail centers that have lost either minor tenants or major tenants, or a combination of both, shopping needs which have regressed, and users going out of business because they don't have enough people on site or nearby spending money at the shopping center. So I wanted to point out a Target center, and this is an interesting case study because (a) it it's not that old, (b) it's almost identical to what we're proposing here, (c) it involves a Target anchored center that other stores had gone out of business. Target stayed in there but some of the smaller users and what they call the mini -majors had left. And Goodyear was looking for a proposal to save the shopping center. They accepted this proposal. The landowner worked with them, they put residents in there. And true to form, stores have come back. Retail has come back into this center. Numbers are up. So sales taxes are up. None of this was done with public money. It was all private money, as is the case here. But the difference between Fountain Hills and Goodyear is that Goodyear did this while still being one of the fastest growing jurisdictions, not only in the Valley, but in the country, in terms of overall growth. And that's something that Fountain Hills has not enjoyed. So if we look at this as a solution for Goodyear, it makes Page 35 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES perfect sense as we look at it for this site within Fountain Hills. So the request itself takes approximately a third of the overall property, not the entire property. And I want to reiterate that because I know there are some concerns that this was carte blanche, a blank check to put apartments on the entire site. That is not the case. The application before you and what we're asking your approval of is just a third of the site adjacent to Technology. That is important because our surrounding property owners or our surrounding users are an arterial roadway on one side, a collector on the other, and the shopping center, and industrial. The conceptual site plan that we've already heard discussed, but I'd like to go into a little bit more detail, involves 316 units. But it involves those 316 units in what's known as a wrap format. That is to say, parking is enclosed. It's a structured solution. It is a higher end solution. It's certainly more expensive because you're building a parking structure that suits the needs of the residents. In essence, the residents can drive to their level in the building and oftentimes walk directly to their unit despite being on the second, third, or fourth floor. It's also important because oftentimes when you create new multifamily, you're often creating parking lots. Large expanses of asphalt that aren't particularly pretty can also add to the heat island effect. They need to be lighted. This is an enclosed parking solution. It adds to the ambiance of the overall development but it's a better solution, and it's a more modern solution. So what we've done here is we've wrapped the parking structure with the units themselves. We have courtyards full of amenities. We have open space, both internal and external, as well as pedestrian connections to the shopping center itself. In terms of design, we've been inspired -- I don't want to say stolen or borrowed, we've been inspired by some of the best, not only best performing, but well -received apartment communities in the Valley. As you can see from this, the design is heavily inspired by the waterfront. The design is desert hues, but it's very simplistic. And the idea is to take the design cues that we're proposing here and incorporate them in the rest of the shopping center, if we are successful with this application this evening. This angle shows not only the building, but the landscaping and more importantly, the Page 36 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES pedestrian connection to the balance of the shopping center. This is indeed a mixed -use application. It's a horizontal mixed -use application. It is not a vertical mixed -use application, meaning we take advantage of being on the same property of having access both vehicular and pedestrian. But also knowing that it is meant to support the businesses, the Fountain Hills businesses that will be in the shopping center and alleviate that 50 percent occupancy or vacancy. The amenities themselves include a pool, spa area, cabanas, fitness center, coworking space. We have Wi-Fi throughout. It's a pet friendly community. It is essentially state of the art, but it is done in a manner that supports all types of residents. And I think that's important because as we hear from the residents of Fountain Hills, it's not just about a solution for somebody who's working nearby. It's not just a solution for retirees. It's not a snowbird solution. It is 316 units of one-, two- and three -bedroom units of varying sizes that suit all lifestyles. And that's important. Although, we've seen from your vacancy rates or occupancy rates within the town, there is such a pent up demand that it's more important that the housing be built for no other reason as to offer new residents and existing residents opportunities that just do not exist today. I want to talk a little bit about what we typically see with multifamily and the development of multifamily on any site, and that is one of the first things that comes up is what does this do to either views or privacy? As I mentioned earlier, we're talking about an eight -foot differential from Shea Boulevard, which is significant because that takes a good portion of the first floor and puts us below the roadway. I know much has been made of the total height that's being requested, and we can show what that looks like not only graphically, but we'll show how it compares to the balance of the shopping center. But it's important to understand that eight feet of that height is actually below grade. Oftentimes we hear from residents. Fortunately, in this instance, we're 580 feet from the nearest resident, which again makes us an ideal site. But the concern is either that privacy is impaired because somebody is looking into homes or backyards, or that view shed is compromised, and that views that were otherwise available are somehow blocked by this community. Both of those prove untrue in this instance because of the Page 37 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES distance, the roadway, and the topography. This was actually taken from a resident driveway up against the home to get a sense -- at the request of the resident, to get a sense of what that differential is and what that does to the view shed. You can see from this none of the view shed is lost. And really what you're looking at is the remainder of the shopping center as well as the buildings that are being proposed. As you go higher and further away from this and other residents, we are also requested to take view shed shots from those areas. A few things that are important to look at here. First of all, the shopping center itself is much more perceptible than the residential buildings. Secondly, none of the HVAC or roof -mounted equipment is visible. It's all screened behind a parapet, which is actually part of the height request. But more importantly, there's no privacy concern and no loss of the horizon. So how does this compare to the buildings that are on site? Well, the Target building we know at its peak is 42 feet. We also recognize that our roofline is 51 feet. So that is essentially the request we are asking for. It is a nine -foot variance between those two points, the peak of the Target and our roofline. We did ask for additional height, but only for the parapet. Meaning the areas that screen any materials to make sure that no matter how high you are in Fountain Hills, you're not looking at any mechanical equipment. The other item that's often mentioned when it comes to multifamily -- and you know this because you've heard multifamily cases that revolve around traffic. Traffic is not a concern in this instance, because the existing traffic from a C-2 shopping center such as this actually exceeds what will be the traffic ultimately at build out. It's one of my favorite songs. So at build out we are looking at 680 less trips per day with the proposal in front of you, then what could occur at full occupancy on the shopping center. That means that the level of services do not change on your roadway, even at full occupancy. Much has been made of Park Place, so I just wanted to give some quick comparisons so that we understand how this does compare and how this stacks up. We are fewer units overall. The density is approximately the same. The parking is actually better equipped on this Page 38 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES site. The parking that is proposed is a 12 percent variance from your code, rather than the 20 percent variance that Park Place has asked for. And in terms of building height, they're similar heights but as I mentioned earlier, this building at Four Peaks is below grade for the first eight feet. Economic benefits. And I don't want to reiterate everything that Ms. Jacobs covered, but obviously without asking for a single dollar in terms of any type of community help, the private property owner here is bringing revenue to the town. And I think it's more important than looking at these numbers and the one-time revenues of over a couple of million dollars and the annual spending of the population or even the state shared revenues. All of those pale in comparison to what happens with the rest of the shopping center. There is a fork in the road here economically. And one fork leads to the status quo. And that hasn't been a winner for this property owner, and it hasn't been a winner for the town. And it results in a precarious situation for the one tenant that is generating revenue for the town. The other branch of that decision is a reinvestment of tens of millions of dollars by the private sector, to benefit not only the shopping center and bring new tenants in there, which is really the end game here, to bring new restaurants, to bring new services, but also ultimately to benefit the town. One of the questions that came up, and I've looked at this online, was whether Target even wants this. Well, anyone who's ever worked with a large corporate entity for years and understands what it takes to get their name on the dotted line in support of a new proposal, will appreciate what we were able to achieve in December, which is their signature on the dotted line in support of this. So I've discussed most of these. I know there'll be questions and I know there are comments from the community. I want to be cognizant of the time you've already spent on this, but please understand this is not just an application which you see every day for the benefit of one property owner. This is truly a collaboration and if done successfully, a collaboration that works well for both the town and the applicant. So thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you very much. So before we start our public comments, I'm Page 39 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES going to take a little break, if that's okay, because I've been requested. So why don't we take, like, five or ten, whatever we think. But be back for sure -- we'll be back by 7:30 for sure. Thanks. [CLERKS NOTE:] The Town Council recessed at 7:17 p.m. and reconvened the meeting at 7:33 p.m. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you everyone so much. Thanks for giving us the break. So we're going to have the public now give us their comments. Then I will close the hearing and we will discuss. So Linda, you're ready to roll. MENDENHALL: Yes, I'm ready to roll, Mayor. All right. So we do have 23 comment cards in person. But what I'm going to talk about right now is just so that we have on the record, we did have quite a few -- quite a few written comments. And even from our last meeting on December 19th, I mentioned that I would be bringing those comments to this meeting. Council has received all those comments from the December 19th meeting. We had 25 in favor and 5 opposed. The comments specifically for this meeting were 86 in favor and 43 opposed. Day -of comment cards that were turned in at this meeting were four in favor and one opposed. So that means a grand total of 115 in favor and 59 opposed. Now, in -person comments. First is Tammy Bell and on deck is Cindy Couture. BELL: Good afternoon, Mayor, vice mayor, council and staff. I stand before you today as a proud member of our community, eager to express my support for the development of Sandor's proposed high quality apartment complex within our town. I understand that there are concerns among some members of our community about potential issues related to the safety and the demographic impact of such a development. However, I firmly believe that this proposed multifamily residential complex, with its focus on luxury community amenities, aligns seamlessly with the lifestyle many of us cherish in our town. This proposed project is not just an apartment complex, it's a vision for a vibrant and inclusive community space that complements our general plan and the essence of our multi -generational town. The amenities offered are vast and are designed to enhance the quality of life for our residents. Let me draw your Page 40 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES attention to the similarities between the proposed apartment complex and many of our homes. Just like many homes in Fountain Hills, this development includes an outdoor pool with sunning deck and cabanas, misters, a firepit seating area, grilling stations, and indoor parking. This proposal is an investment that's creating an environment that resonates with the preferences and lifestyles of our current residents. It's essential to address the concerns raised by potential changes in our community's demographics. However, as I mentioned above, this high quality apartment complex offers a lifestyle that should eliminate any fears or presumptions of a radical demographic change. By embracing this development, we demonstrate as a community to offer housing for people of all generations who enjoy similar amenities as many of us. I ask you to consider the profound positive impact this development will have on our community. Unfortunately, I've become aware of concerns that some of you -- and your votes tonight may be influenced by political considerations, rather than reflecting the majority voice, which both Republicans and Democrats, by the way, have overwhelmingly expressed support for this project. It's disheartening to hear that some may be using delay tactics to push the developer out, some weighing consequences to their political careers or facing external pressures within their party, potentially affecting the integrity of their vote. I applaud any of you today who are willing to rise above these concerns. Any of you who are willing to rise above any personal agendas, political influences, stand against intimidation, and prioritize the well-being of our Fountain Hills community, please cast your vote based on the greater good. Show respect for our staff, help foster a healthy business environment, and represent those of us who are actively working to make a positive impact in our town. I believe this is an opportunity for us to evolve while maintaining the unique charm and character and lifestyle of our town. Thank you for your time and consideration. COUTURE: Madam Mayor and town council. My name is Cindy Couture. I will be short and sweet. I had a bunch of things written down, but Mr. Morris is amazing. He answered anything, I think. I think if you are looking for something to vote against this apartment complex on, you're going to have to dig really deep because he answered Page 41 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES everything. In fact, I'm thinking maybe when it gets done I might want to move there. So vote yes, support the town. This is a good thing. MENDENHALL: Next we have Crystal Cavanaugh and on deck, Geoff Yazzetta. CAVANAUGH: Good evening. Please consider the consequences of a rezone that allows a rental project well beyond our highest R-5 zoning, which could significantly change the intended character of Fountain Hills. Has anyone seen the master plan for this whole plaza? To those that minimize this as just some apartments at the edge of town, I hope you consider the bigger impact on our community and the possibility of even further expansion of such a project. Some are pushing apartments as the solution to promoting commerce, but what well -paying industries compatible with Fountain Hills have they even tried to bring in? Or even something like a destination shopping experience with premium outlets that could overflow into our downtown area with shoppers? Shea has access to both the 202 and the 101. With apartments, renters will most likely just hop on Shea and go towards Scottsdale. This location could benefit Fountain Hills economically if the zoning request was industrial. Arizona is a big tourism state. Scottsdale has a ping golf industry, for example. Who has tried to bring something like that here? A rezone for a manufacturer would be welcome. They mention workforce housing, but for what work workforce? Not the service industry. They mention rentals for families, which is unlikely since these are the most -- or these are higher priced apartments, small one- and two -bedroom units at 744 to 950 square feet. These are promoted as luxury rentals. But for who? Part-time residents or permanent residents? Depending who rents these, the economic impact numbers presented can be dramatically skewed. I hear the term walkability, but where will they be walking to? And to classify this as mixed -use at the far end of the plaza is deceptive. Park Place is mixed -use. It's surrounded by businesses mixed with residential. And speaking of Park Place, there will be plenty of rentals available once that gets built. We have quite a few rental options already here in Fountain Hills. A rezone for a smaller development of condos with ownership would be more suited to Fountain Hills. Expanding available housing with high -density builds because some people want to move here but can't Page 42 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES afford it, isn't logical. There is no such thing as a right to live in Fountain Hills at a specific price point. We are a scenic bedroom community. People who can afford to live here do just like other higher end desirable locations, and our property values are then maintained. Many specifically choose to live here because of the small town feel, easy access to other areas, and an emphasis on single family homes, not high density rentals. People don't always live where they work either. I'm opposed to this high density rezone. The allegation that developers won't bring projects here is wrong. Fountain Hills is not difficult to work with if you bring the right project. Thank you. YAZZETTA: Good evening, mayor, council, staff. Jeff Yazzetta, Fountain Hills resident for two years and also a renter. I'll keep this brief. I know there's a lot of comments on the docket today. So I used to work in local government and can appreciate the spirited dialogue that we're having this evening about this proposal. I wanted to share I am in support of this project because it meets the provisions set forth in the general plan. Also, the new development will help revitalize the shopping center, which has been faltering for some time. And the residents will shop and dine locally, which would benefit the Town of Fountain Hills as a whole. I feel like this project, with its aesthetic, amenities, and ease of access to both Tempe and Scottsdale, could potentially attract a much needed younger demographic to this community. This property is underutilized in its current state, and we can debate on and on about what could or should be implemented here. But at the end of the day, something needs to be done to revitalize this area. And we have a developer that is willing to invest in Fountain Hills, which I believe will make a positive impact in our town. I hope you will support this proposal. Thank you so much for your time. MENDENHALL: Next we have former mayor Jay Schlum and then on deck Steve Baggio. SCHLUM: Hey, Mayor, council, staff. Good to see you. The land here is currently not being used in this area. As you know, we had an A&W Root Beer, maybe you don't. It's been, like, 15 years since it closed. It's an empty building that's periodically lived in by people that don't live there. So this property is not being used. Retail world has changed completely. We need to reuse this land with something that will work for our Page 43 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES community. Traffic, not a real concern on Shea Boulevard. Seems like a really good location to consider a redevelopment. Blocking views are always a sensitivity. We got great views in Fountain Hills. It sits way below the road. Takes away a lot of that concern. We're short apartments. We definitely are. There is mixed -use multifamily units short in the entire valley. In Fountain Hills we did not build apartments. That's why a lot of our condos get rented out. We don't have apartment communities like most other places. We need more multifamily, obviously, supply and demand to get more supply. Typically, the prices will come down. Not saying it's going to be affordable because things are crazy right now. It is clear the people of Fountain Hills love their town. We're pretty well engaged here. We're a community where you can come out and be heard. You may have issues at the federal level and you don't feel you're heard. Guess what, Fountain Hills, you can be heard. And sometimes it cuts both ways. We're extremely fortunate here. And we are apprehensive to change because we love our town so much, we don't want to screw it up. We are the greatest town in the world. You recall the fears that we had when Park Place was coming forward. Very similar fears: height, traffic, on and on. Same fears here. Park Place has turned out pretty incredible and hopefully the rest of it will get developed here soon. We've got year- round residents there supporting the businesses of our downtown. The same thing is likely to occur there. One of the things we all agree on is we demand quality design and quality development and will continue to trust you and hold you into account and be at public meetings to make sure that's what we get here in Fountain Hills. This location and the plan also proved to be a very positive thing for our community in the future, in the greatest Town of Fountain Hills. So appreciate you listening. And there's always tweaks that will be needed as this goes along. And hopefully it'll get through this process so it can be understood better. And also we can be open to developers putting in good money into our community and bringing us quality developments here in the future. Thank you. BAGGIO: Hello, Mayor. Hello, council. My name is Steve Baggio and I'm a resident of Fountain Hills. Excuse me. I'm all for these apartments. I didn't come up with any fancy Page 44 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES speeches. I'm going to speak from the heart. I'm a renter due to unfortunate circumstances that happened to me. I can tell you firsthand there's a huge need for apartments, condos, and other housing in this community. And a lot of people want it. Now, I keep hearing negatives, no's, no, no's. All these people say no. You know what? They have no solutions. You know what that's called? That's called complaining. And I'm a doer. I like to do things. I do things for the community. I do things for businesses. I'm doing a food drive right now. And you know what the problem is? A lot of people in this town, they always want stuff, but they don't want to do things. I'm telling you guys, you need to go with this project. If you say no to it, imagine what a builder or a developer or these developers -- thank you for choosing Fountain Hills. Imagine any development is going to say, wait a second. This town said no to an empty parking lot with buildings. They're going to say no to anything else. No, that is not progress. That's not how this town was founded. That fountain right there rises to the top. If you do not pass this, the fountain is not going to keep rising. The only thing that this town is going to be is flotsam and jetsam. Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next we have John Meredith and Pamela Curtis on deck. MEREDITH: All right, council, I'm John Meredith. I live on East Trevino, but I can't see it from where I am. I'm more interested in the direction of the town. The most valuable zip code in Arizona is Paradise Valley, and there isn't even a close second. The most valuable zip code in the whole country is Atherton out in the Bay area. And if you look at maybe the most -- 10, 20 top zip codes, they have things in common and most of them are close to amenities like businesses and shopping and the theater, everything that people want culturally, but they don't have them in their community. They have easy access to them. So Fountain Hills already has -- just down Shea, you can find anything you want. The other thing they have is that they're almost all single-family residential. And so it's a pretty simple formula. People with money don't like being stacked in like sardines. And if you make Fountain Hills a really valuable zip code, then you're not going to have to worry about commercial. Everybody wants to sell to people that have money. Nobody, you know -- anyway. My point is that if you sit down and Page 45 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES you decide to take that approach, then every decision you make, you just sit down and say, does this raise the value of the single-family residential owner in the town? And if it does, well, I guess it's a good decision. But if you look at all these -- well, look at Paradise Valley. They don't have multi -story buildings. They don't have apartments. They have single-family residences. That's where all the money gravitates to. So to me, Fountain Hills has a huge -- it's just never going to be another Paradise Valley, but it might end up in the top five with the right decisions where you follow that model and try and attain that kind of a situation for the town. Thanks. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. CURTIS: Right. So this area was zoned industrial and changed to commercial because the townspeople decided they wanted shopping closer to home. Four Peaks Plaza was built, taking into account the neighborhoods around and across from it, keeping the height down, the lighting low, the store lights off at night when the stores are closed, and signage back lit and within a reasonable height. Sadly, the complex was not well managed and stores left all prior to COVID. This is one thing that cannot be blamed on COVID. Now this developer comes with a request to rezone 6.7 acres of the property, to tear down half of the center to build apartments, to revitalize the center. How does taking the commercial space away revitalize it? It is gone, period, with no opportunity for stores to exist there. And they want 316 apartments on that 6.7 acres of land. How can that be justified when Daybreak wasn't approved with 400 apartments on 60 acres of land? Also, with all of their experts, lawyers, and well paid employees, you'd think the developer would be aware of the codes, regulations, and restrictions that apply to the rezoning request, i.e., density or number of apartments allowed, height restrictions, setbacks required, and sufficient parking to name a few. So why would they come in with something that doesn't adhere to their request? And who is going to want to rent the units on the backside of the complex, where the view consists of an RV parking lot, U-Haul storage units, and another new storage facility that has two very bright lights on all night. This group should get a failing grade for their homework. You should deny the request and send them back to the drawing board. Better yet tell them that the space Page 46 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES will remain as is and that they should get the businesses in there. There are thriving centers out there, Desert Ridge, Tempe Marketplace, Mesa Riverview, the Pavilions, the Promenade to name a few. Entice Trader Joe's, In and Out, Alta, Bath and Body Works, the Art House and more to set up shop here. People like one -stop shopping in a place to grab something to take home for dinner, without having to deal with the traffic and the time to go to the other thriving centers out of town. The problem is, this group is not getting on the phone, not putting in the time or shoe leather to do this. Instead, they are discouraging business from coming there. What is the feasibility of a store that charges $1.25 an item? Being able to sustain half a million dollars a year in rent? I wouldn't be surprised if you allowed this apartment facility to go through that, in a year or two someone comes back to tell you that although they really, really tried to fill up the remaining commercial space, it just couldn't be done. So they need to tear it down and build another apartment complex, taking away that commercial space forever and sending the people of Fountain Hills back to Mesa, Tempe, and Scottsdale to do their shopping. And look at Park Place, or don't I should say, as all we've seen there for quite some time is dirt and fencing. What a welcome sight for those that come to attend our fairs and community activities. Let's at least get that completed before entertaining another complex and builder that may sue the town repeatedly instead of completing the build. Please just say no. MENDENHALL: Okay. We have Laurie Scherer -- hopefully I said it right, but you can correct it for the public record. And then on deck, Cathi Marx. SCHERER: Hello, my name is Laurie Scherer. My husband and I have been here for over 12 years now. We have grandchildren, we had kids, so now we have grandchildren. Anyway, so -- but we have retired. And one of the things that attracted us to Fountain Hills was having open space, no homes right on top of each other. We both saved our whole lives to be able to afford a home like this, we've been through many rentals, and we've done lots of things in our lives. All of us have to be able to afford to get a home. The kids are great. We have grandkids. They come, they visit, they go. We moved to Fountain Hills because of the wide open space and because people weren't right on top Page 47 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES of each other. And I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of by saying that we like to have our space. And I don't think there's anything wrong with saying we worked really hard to get where we're at today. I don't think having three or four people in an apartment, because the rent is so darn high, is going to help a bloody thing. I just don't. I don't think that when -- I'm a nurse. So when in doubt, don't. What's the hurry? Why can't we -- we never heard one thing about this project. Not one. But I hear that council members didn't even hear about it until we heard about it. And it's been going on. They talked to Target April of '19, and for over nine months people have been meeting about this project. We never got a notice, not one notice or opportunity to go to a meeting and voice our concerns. And I'm very, very annoyed and offended that the developer would say, yeah, well, we had two meetings and gosh, only three people showed and three people. You know what? Gosh darn it. Nobody came to Monterey Drive, let me tell you. Because no -- I have walked the block. I've walked to Reno. My friends can tell you. I have walked and walked and walked to try and spread the word. You know what? It's not nice. We should have been in on those meetings. We should have at least had a say and been informed. And then to hear a lot of people have requested the big plans and not had a one single meeting, even when requested to answer questions about the complete project. I have a problem with that. And I don't like a liar either. I think people need to be upfront. What's wrong with putting this on hold for a little bit and getting more information? I didn't say no. Let's just get some information and let us -- we look at it. It's right in front of my house. My back deck looks right at it. You know what? It's easy to say when it's not in your face. And I love Fountain Hills, I know all you guys do, too. But you know what? It's very easy when you're not the one looking right at it. So let's just wait a minute. Let's look at a few more things. Thank you. Thank you. MARX: Madam Mayor, town council. My name is Kathi Marx. I suggest we also take a breath before we do anything that is irreversible. It appears to me to be a very short sighted to change zoning, because our strip mall is failing just like thousands across the country. Just because business models change, it doesn't mean that our business model Page 48 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES should change. And a comparison between Goodyear and Fountain Hills is apples to oranges. Who would have guessed when the town planning was done 50 years ago that instead of driving all over town to find that rug you want, you just stay at home in your pajamas, press a button, and five days later it shows up? But that's progress. That doesn't mean we throw away our initial town plan and make Shea and Saguaro Corridor high -density residential. It means we work harder to attract new businesses with high paying jobs that will attract high earners and families. Urban planning guides tell us that you create the jobs and the people will come. Right now, the high paying jobs are not here to attract young professionals. And if we sign away this amazing parcel, there is no turning back. I also keep hearing we must save Target. Why? Why is it the responsibility of Fountain Hills' residents to save one location of a $65 billion company? I just heard that we have 324 possible apartments in the pipeline. Plus this 316. That's 640 apartments. Remember, once built, they're built. There's no turning back. I also hear now the term is workforce housing. Is that a new name for affordable housing? According to the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, affordable housing is defined where the occupant is paying 30 percent or less of the gross income on total housing, including utilities. That means for the smallest apartment, it's estimated that the individual has to make at least $61,000 a year. And we just heard our average workforce here in Fountain Hills is 40,000. Affordable housing is also used as a general terms to refer to housing assistance for low income individuals, which includes housing vouchers. Are we now talking Section 8, government assisted housing? If that's the case, that's a totally different conversation. We will soon have the Dark Skies Discovery Center in our town. We will have a small town vibe with advanced science and technical education and research. Wouldn't it make sense to have science and technology employers right where we always planned? Keep to the plan. Even planning and zoning agree. We just can't make this irreversible change. We will regret it five to ten years from now, when strip malls are truly a thing of the past and our only option will be to add 316 more apartments because we gave away on a whim our prime commercial real estate. I will be sorry to see Target fail, but I will be even more sorry to Page 49 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES see us lose this opportunity to create future workplaces for the next generation of Fountain Hills citizens. Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next we have Bart Shea and on deck, Betsy LaVoie. SHEA: Madam Mayor, council, staff. Rach, you look good up there. So I'm probably half of the units that everyone keeps talking about. And informatively, we're going to be starting probably in the next 45 days. Financing has been a little rough this year. I don't know if anyone's watched the interest rates go up and down, but it's become a little more expensive to build than it used to be. I'm here to talk in favor of this project. I'm here to tell you right now that the competition that's perceived in this whole complex is absolutely, phenomenally wrong. The number of units that we're putting into this town right now wouldn't touch the need if we doubled them. You think about it, I think John came up with 15 percent as the national average. We'll will be at seven, maybe if everything gets built, including the 316 units for the population in this town. I've heard nothing but negative comments from everybody. Who had nothing but positive comments about Park Place, and I've heard nothing but positive comments from people who had negative comments about Park Place. It's just like -- I was talking to Aaron earlier, it's kind of like this diametrically opposed positioning for political whims. This town deserves this project. This town needs this project. This town doesn't have another chance. It's not golden bullets. And the market's going to drive it anyway. If they get to the point where they actually get to go build this thing, you're going to give them permission tonight to go start. At that point, if everything worked just perfect and it wasn't referendum, these guys are two and a half years before they get a shovel in the ground. Nobody has any idea what the interest rates are going to do. No one has any idea what the economy is going to do. Lumber could go up to 1,750, 1,000. They'll put it on hold again. So these guys are asking tonight for permission to go spend 2, 3, $4 million to finish planning this thing and get the what everyone thinks is this ultimate plan about, well, it's going to work and go together. They're going to spend a ton of time and a ton of money and a ton of engineering to see if they can make this thing work. And at the end of the day -- at the very end of the day, what's going to drive this Page 50 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES is the market. It's not going to be what we feel is best. It's not going to be what I feel is best for my competition. It's what is going to be best for this town. And if the market does say no, you can't put apartments here. Hey, they just wasted three million bucks. I know how that feels. If these guys are literally standing on the precipice of getting permission to start, not permission to finish, not permission to put in, what is it, Section 8 housing? Heard that a lot when I put mine up too. We have 400 people that live in Park Place. We'll have 800 people that live in all of Park Place when it's done. I'm sorry. But this needs to go through. This needs to give -- you got to give them permission to start or they'll never finish. Thank you for your time. LAVOIE: Good evening. Happy New Year. Betsy LaVoie, Fountain Hills resident and CEO and president of the Chamber of Commerce. Sandor and esteemed representatives, we express our gratitude to you as we move forward to shape the future of our town. I kindly request that all of you to stand and remain standing for this significant occasion. If you're willing, bear with me, guys. Come on. The Town of Fountain Hills staff has recommended approval of this transformative project. Out of respect for our town staff, may I invite you, town staff, to please stand in the audience. Come on. Amanda and crew stand. The Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce Board of Directors has wholeheartedly endorsed this project, providing a letter of support. I now invite the board members -- I've lost four, they had to leave, but I now invite the board members to please stand. And additionally, I call all of our Chamber of Commerce, community business owners, community partners, and supportive residents to stand. If you are in favor of this revitalization project and thank you for your vision, you can all be seated. Thank you very much. I was glad that there were people were standing behind me. Okay. In addition to the strong local support, the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce organized our quarterly FH Connect Breakfast on January 4th, where Sandor and Withey Morris Baugh engaged with our business community, presenting the redevelopment project and addressing questions. There were 110 people in attendance. Following the presentation and Q&A session, we distributed a survey with anonymous feedback. 93 people completed that survey, 95 percent expressed support for the project. This Page 51 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES underscores the Board of Directors' representation of the business community as a whole. Notably, chambers of commerce typically hold an 8 percent market share, yet our Fountain Hills chamber boasts 62 percent of the town's local business licenses as chamber members. This positions us as the largest possible sampling of the business community grounded in data and facts. In addition to the substantial evidence of support, I personally engaged with business owners and managers in and around the plaza, including Target. With Target perhaps being the most speculated about, I personally met with them and will share that Target expressed excitement for this project. Target cited positive communication with Sandor and their representatives. They confirmed that the developers have accommodated their requests, and they've been a pleasure to work with. Businesses such as Francis & Sons Car Wash, Comfort Inn, Denny's, Bealls Outlet, Subway, O'Reilly's Crossroad Auto Works, Discount Tire, and Desert Dog all overwhelmingly support this plaza's redevelopment. As elected officials, I encourage you to base your vote on data rather than speculation. Opposition to this project often relies on fear and speculation, with the latest talking point being density. While this will be the most densely -- I'm almost done -- the most densely populated development in our town, it's crucial to note the increase is minute. It's less than one unit more per acre of land. It's actually .2. That's the size of a closet per acre of land larger than Park Place. I will challenge anyone to provide evidence and data to support that the notion additional .2 -- MAYOR DICKEY: Thanks, Betsy. LAVOIE: -- is problematic. MAYOR DICKEY: Got to stick with it. LAVOIE: Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next we have Larry Meyers and on deck, Nancy Ordowski. MEYERS: Mayor, council. I recently have just become aware of that revenue and economic impact study that was commissioned by the town. I don't know who did it, but I applaud the endeavor. And while at the same time I see some generalities Page 52 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES assumed, undoubtedly, coming from census data from which they derived their numbers, it does create a margin of error for some of the projected revenue, which I think may be a bit generous. But it also dispels the complete misinformation put forth by certain chamber board members and leaders as to the sales tax revenues that we will achieve by having 490 or so more residents. If discretionary spending from the mean Fountain Hills income holds up with people living in 760 square foot apartments, the numbers are probably high. So I'm against this land use for the same reason I was against the land use 20 years ago when it was bare dirt. And it happens that your economic impact study says the same thing. I was against the commercial use -- turning industrial land into commercial a long time ago. And as it turns out, myself and others were absolutely correct as now we face a failed commercial shopping center. Okay. So no applause necessary. Andrew Lyall from Sandor says, we don't think the amount of retail that we have there and where it's positioned is a fixable problem as retail. So does he mean -- that's a quote. I have the audio file. Does he mean the center? Or the 6.7 acres? Well, I don't know what he means. Back when the commercial rezone was proposed, the council then jumped at the first thing proposed in a shortsighted, now proven to be not astute, because retail centers were the flavor of the day and Berkeley made a lot of money. Sandor comes in, and now the flavor of the day is apartments. They propose to make a lot of money. So I'm going to read to you from your own economic impact statement. And it basically says the industrial scenario would have minimal short-term tax impacts but would support quality jobs and the largest annual economic impacts. Apartments would create new housing, but not new jobs. I'm going to skip to the end of it because it basically says that industrial would be the best longer term development for the town. And I would ask our economic development director, who seems to think she's going to bring some industry here, where's the land she's putting it on? Because that's it right there. It was 20 years ago, and it is today. So I thank you for your time and please take the long view, not the short view that the people -- the council 20 years ago did, because you can see where it got us. Thanks. ORDOWSKI: Good evening, Mayor and council. My name is Nancy Ordowski. I've been Page 53 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES a resident of Fountain Hills for over 25 years. I've probably attended more than 75 council meetings, not so much in the last few years, but in the time I've been here and the time I was attending, all I heard is there's no space for industry in this town. How can we bring jobs to Fountain Hills? And that land up there on Shea where Target is, is the space it should be. We need people to be able to make a good living in this town, and we need to build that as an industry space instead of just this commercial space. I happen to not be one of the ones that have support Amazon. It's taking away our small businesses. We're being lazy just to have something delivered to our door. I like to see what I'm going to buy. But that doesn't happen. And we need to have this land or this space turned into an industrial. Let's offer some jobs. Let's make something available. I've heard over and over, oh, there's no land, oh, there's no land. And what was just said, what are they going to do? Where are they going to put this new industry? We don't have that kind of land in this town. That is the area that needs to be placed in. It's where we need to have it. How do we know Target's not going to leave? And why do we keep changing all of our -- oh, now we're going to use the P.A.D. zoning, and we're going to do this zoning, and we're going to change our zoning here and there. We need to bring jobs for our residents. Keep saying housing is expensive here, but we don't have where our people are earning $40,000 a year. There are technical jobs, medical jobs, research companies that need space, and we should be offering it. Please consider a no vote on this apartment complex. Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next we have Christine Milashosk. And then on deck Skip Mayorana (ph.). UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Skip had to leave. He won't return. MENDENHALL: Okay. Thank you. And then in Skip's place, we have Aaron Brown. MILASHOSK: Mayor, council, staff, thank you. I'm Kristen Milkowski. The redevelopment of the Four Peaks Plaza in Fountain Hills promises a transformative, revitalizing impact for our beautiful Fountain Hills community. As a citizen in support of the redevelopment of the Four Peaks Plaza in Fountain Hills, I'd like to share that my family relocated to Fountain Hills for its community and ample opportunities. We left Page 54 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES behind a community that was no longer thriving, a community with neglected public spaces that contributed to a sense of despair. We left a community that decades prior had said no to growth opportunities. We looked at our future and the possibilities available to us as we became older, the possibilities available to our children as they became adults. Our choices were clear stay put and live a stagnant life, or move where opportunities flourish, one where our family could flourish alongside community. I invite you to imagine Fountain Hills 10, 20, or 30 years into the future. If new opportunities are not embraced, what does it look like? Are families and individuals exiting Fountain Hills? What businesses or jobs remain? The redevelopment of Four Peaks Plaza ensures a thriving future for our town. Thriving neighborhoods are a key component of thriving communities. Embracing this redevelopment is an investment in the future prosperity of Fountain Hills. I urge you to make a decision from a perspective of abundance rather than scarcity, one that will uplift our community and leave a lasting positive impact. I urge you to champion this transformation for the betterment of Fountain Hills, not only for today, but also for tomorrow. Thank you. BROWN: Hello, mayor, staff, council. My name is Aaron Brown. I'm a resident of Fountain Hills. I own property on both sides of this -- the development. And it's quite obvious something needs to occur. It's been vacant for some time, and it's a detriment to the areas around it. But I can't say whether or not this is the best move. Obviously, the business that's going to be doing the development there isn't here to make money. That's why they're here, not doing anybody favors. But understandably, they want to maximize that. And my only concern is the following of the rules that are set in place with density, heights, things like that. But it's on a larger picture in that -- and I defer to all of you to look at this and figure out what the best plan is -- are we going to continue to let those things occur, to exceed what's already in place, or make changes so that it is within the guidelines? And I know everyone's referred back to the Park Place, it's not going to be higher than that and everything else but Park Place obviously exceeded that when it came to be. And you continue to do that and then, you know, it just will snowball. And maybe someday we end up with six stories and maybe that's okay. But I Page 55 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES think if anyone's going to do development, it should be within the existing guidelines. And it may reduce some of the profitability. But I think the council and the town has set those things in place for a reason. And that's all to say. Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next we have John Head, and on deck we have Gene Slechta. HEAD: Hello, my name is John Head. I am probably the closest business to this development. I'm directly across the street on Technology Drive. A lot of you know it as the Monks Building. I own the 30,000 square foot building and five acres of land there. Just to give you a little bit of history about me, I'm an MIT degreed ocean engineer. I'm kind of an oddity. There are only two ocean engineers in my graduating class and spent some time at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution, worked with the guys that discovered the Titanic, and have been involved in a lot of government subsea work. My company, Prevco, is strictly subsea, where I boldly state that we're the only subsea company in the whole State of Arizona, and if there is anybody else that does that, let me know. Anyway, we are very high-tech in what we do. We build a very expensive metal enclosures that go to 20,000 feet underwater and are used for various and sundry purposes, for defense, for oil field development, and for environmental purposes. We sell all over the world and we have engineers that work for us and technicians that work there. I'm concerned about this development being across the street from me, owning the property and the land there and that I'm afraid first of all, it's going to decrease the value of my property by having this massive development with, potentially, 500 to 1000 people living there. It seems to me -- like, is there anywhere else in town where there's a four-story parking garage? And I know whenever I go to town, I try not to park in a parking garage, just going around and around in circles. I don't think there's adequate space around here for that many people. Probably a lot of young children that -- where are they going to go? They're going to come over and hang out over at Prevco in the parking lot over there. Anyway, you get the idea that I'm not for the development. And I do believe that a better idea would be to bring in some sort of a company that has -- needs offices and doing high tech development whatever, that it will bring in a higher paid clientele that'll help the people to be able to afford the housing that's here in Page 56 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Fountain Hills. And I think that it would help to support -- even if you put that building right there it would help to support the local businesses by bringing in potentially 500 or 1,000 workers every day coming in from other parts of the town to work there, some of them would live here. Anyway, if anybody's a retired engineer we're always looking for engineers. We've hired a few retired guys, as old as 80 years old. Let me know. Prevco.com. SLECHTA: Thank you, mayor, council. My name is Gene Slechta. I support wholeheartedly a proposal to breathe new life into the Shea Boulevard corridor. I won't bore you with more numbers, you've heard too many already. Let me give you some perspective, though. Traffic. I keep hearing my traffic. Shea is a six lane road for most of its journey through town. We should hope for more vehicles on that highway. It is not in a residential neighborhood. Anyone that's lived here for any length of time knows the bulk of traffic is either weekend warriors going up to the lakes, or weekday residents commuting to or from work in the morning, in the afternoon -- work, work. The three largest centers in Maricopa County for employment are Sky Harbor, Downtown Phoenix, and Scottsdale Air Park, and Scottsdale was just recognized as the number one job magnet in the United States. So let's take advantage of that. We know that engineers, IT professionals, business executives, young doctors, they can afford the rent at that apartment complex that's being proposed. Moreover, do you think that young professionals, single or married, children or not, would be -- not be salivating to have quick access to a higher speed road to their job in nearby Scottsdale? Or they may be working from home. And then return each evening to the beauty that is Fountain Hills. They then park their vehicle in a secure, dark sky compliant garage and have dinner. Or they walk next door to the restaurants that have sprouted out up because of the new residents next door. This is enticing. Finally, Target has been painted as a failure, it's not. It has performed as well as possible with the lack of population density. We should be thankful for them. Their existence for 20 years has brought in huge amounts of sales tax revenue, more than the dirt that was there beforehand. They took a chance on us. We should take a chance on them and support their efforts to adapt Page 57 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES and survive. One last thing. I was employed in the town's planning zoning department for five years, and a P&Z commissioner for three years. Never had I seen an elected official attend a commission meeting and speak in an attempt to influence the commission. You, Mr. Skillicorn, you were the first. Now, it may not be unethical, but it sure was inappropriate. And if you want to do the right thing, you should recuse yourself. I won't hold my breath. Thank you. MENDENHALL: Okay. Just to give you an update, we only have four speakers remaining on this item. Next is Joanne Lyles. On deck is former council member, Alan Magazine. LYLES: I'll take it up in a minute. It's coming. Thank you for the opportunity to address these agenda items. My name is Joanne Lyles and I'm a resident in Fountain Hills. I'm a mom of two young adults here and I operate -- I work from home and I'm against the proposed development, I'm afraid. I absolutely love what this town has become. And like many fellow residents I have a great deal of life experience and education. And I speak from not fear or speculation. I have degrees in civil engineering and a master of architecture from the School of Urban Planning and Architecture. I mention this solely to address the notion that Fountain Hills is comprised of varied, hardworking, and intelligent individuals whose understanding of public policy should be respected and weighed in the same vein as those who hold elected office. Like I said, I love my town. The problem I see is the Four Peaks development is a contrived urban idea. It has nothing to do with the idyllic landscape we know as Fountain Hills. The Four Peaks development is a nod to an urban planning concept, which is a trend called walkable mixed -use development. And unfortunately, the walkable movement has its origins in political sociology. It's not necessarily sustainable in the environment that we find ourselves in, and this ideology often goes against what we consider ourselves to be intelligent, self-governing people. We have a right to determine and preserve the nature of our hometowns. Fountain Hills does not need housing on the order of 316 units, 700-plus people, 500 cars wrapped around dwelling units packed like sardines onto the Dollar Store parking lot. I think that there's a concept a lot of people understand called defensible space. Defensible space means that when you're outside Page 58 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES your home, you're protected by the visibility that you enjoy from other people looking on. A wraparound parking lot does not provide that kind of space. I think this project is unsustainable. In large part, good urban planning builds housing where there are jobs. There are no suitable corporate entity for this location. Likewise, there aren't any new jobs. The commuter scenario that it is promising is illogical because there really is only one road out of town, and I think that everybody's going to be going the same way at the same time. It's -- right now, it's not easy commuting in the morning. Walkability, where 8 months out of the 12 are north of 100 Fahrenheit is unsustainable. I know that there are questions about the density issue, although that is a huge issue -- MAYOR DICKEY: Excuse me. The time is up. Can you make one less last sentence, please? LYLES: I think the idea that we're using Park Place as a precedent is telling. What happens when we start using Fountainview Village as a precedent? That is not what these people here are expressing as a desire. These are huge projects -- MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you, ma'am. Thank you. I got to go with the three minutes here. MAGAZINE: Mayor and council, it seems a little odd for me to be on this side of the dais. I want to announce something startling. Bart Shea and I find ourselves in agreement. I'm not sure I ever remember a time when that happened before, Bart. I'm here to support this application with modifications. Some will tell you to outright oppose the application. Almost every case where a major rezoning is considered there are discussions between the staff, the applicant, and the council to see if there can be compromises, to see if things can be worked out. No rezoning is ever perfect. When Park Place came before you or us, there were many months of discussions, compromises, and so on before it came before the council and was essentially approved by the council. You, as councilmembers, have received the applied economics analysis at 92 percent occupancy, which we're told is pretty typical. It will generate $9.3 million in taxable local retail spending annually. Which certainly would be a tremendous boon to our businesses. Ask yourself if Target leaves, what business would come here? You Page 59 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES know, I think it's interesting that people say, well, you know, Target wants to be here, they love it here. Tell me, how many general managers or owners, corporate owners of a business, are going to announce they're thinking of leaving? It doesn't happen. It just suddenly happens. They take a look at the numbers, they take a look at what they're doing, and they say, well, maybe not. And I've heard a number of people talk about the need for an industrial project. I haven't heard anybody talk about the fact that there's a deed restriction on the property. A deed restriction, and I haven't seen any companies lined up to try to test that deed restriction. And it's been what? We're almost 50 years old as a town. I haven't seen any businesses come to the council or the staff and say we have a project in mind and we want to take a look at it. Imagine, in your mind's eye, what it will look like if the Target does leave. Right now, as of two days ago, because I drove through it, there were 20 vacant stores. I want to change tenor a little bit. An eight -page email was sent to Republicans a while ago to -- asking people to show up and oppose this project. Many of you have probably received it. That's not a problem. Everyone has a right to express themselves, but not to bring politics into every decision. A couple of quotes from that email. We, meaning Republicans, wanted to flip the council to five to two liberal, to four/three conservative. Who generally lives in apartments? The answer is simply Democrats. Who pushes arguments of this and other dense housing projects? Democrats? MAYOR DICKEY: You're out of time, Alan. Sorry. MAGAZINE: I can have another half an hour. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next we have Dan Kovacevic and on deck Ed Stizza. KOVACEVIC: Hi, I'm Dan Kovacevic. Although I'm a member of planning and zoning commission, I write this as a resident of Fountain Hills. And I have 40 years of experience in the real estate business. We have a wonderful town here in Fountain Hills, and the ordinances have served it well. The highest density codified in the town ordinances is 25 units an acre. This project is 45. If the vision for this town was to have this kind of density, there would be an R-45 zoning classification. There isn't. This site's Page 60 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES requesting Park Place variances despite none of the residential amenities Park Place has. There's no public transportation. It's hard to get an Uber. This is not the central business district on the Avenue. This site isn't walkable. Park Place residents walk their dogs in Fountain Park, down the Avenue of the Fountains, a parklike setting. Four Peaks Plaza residents will be walking their dogs through an industrial park where there's no sidewalks on the side streets. There's a sidewalk on Technology. There's no sidewalks on the side streets. This is not a good residential site. It's a residential site by default, and it doesn't warrant any variances. When the ordinances aren't working, you put it through a process. We've heard on planning and zoning, we've heard signs, general plan update, community homes, we're looking at 5G right now. There has been no request to look at changing 25 units per acre. But if you really don't agree with me and you think that 2 to 2.5 percent of the town population belongs on less than seven acres in the town, 90 units above ordinance at 30,000 a door, is creating $2.7 million in land value. And that's just over and above what's in our ordinance. What's the town getting in return? Once built, 90 units is $32 million in asset value over the -- just over the ordinance. What's the town getting for its part in creating that kind of value? If the town is going to give petitioner opportunities above and beyond the ordinance, the town should get something in return, above and beyond the ordinance. If you're inclined to allow this project, please negotiate a good deal for the town. I'm not against apartments on this site, just not at this density. Petitioner's stuck in a bad deal. The retail is a blight for our community and apartments are the fastest way out. As a citizen of Fountain Hills, I'm requesting you insist petitioner, bring back a plan that conforms to R-5 density and conforms to a parking ordinance. In summary, it's not a residential site. It's a failed retail site with residential as its only other option. The amenities of a neighborhood like parks and schools aren't here. Fountain Hills is not urban. 2 to 2.5% of the town's population doesn't belong on less than seven acres in this community. The site doesn't warrant trashing our ordinance. We have a wonderful town and the ordinances have served it well. If petitioner says they can't make 25 units an acre work, then let's live with the resident -- with the vacant retail. And if you do decide to ignore Page 61 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES the town ordinance and create a large windfall for the petitioner, the town should be compensated for that windfall. Mayor Dickey, town council, I you really disagree with me on what this vision for the town is, please take the time to negotiate a good deal with benefits to the town beyond the standard fees. Otherwise, you're leaving a lot on the table and you can do better for the town. Thank you for your consideration and thank you for your service to our town. STIZZA: Good evening, Madam Mayor. Good evening, town council, Aaron, staff, Rachael, everyone. So it's quite amazing to me the dialogue and the conversation that this has created, and it's been great because it does show you the cross-section of what the majority of Fountain Hills wants to be. Okay. And I can't say enough for our planning and zoning commission and what they put this particular project through. Yeah, it was a four-hour long conversation, and certainly there were reasons that it was denied. And I think you all need to take a look at that. And nobody's against the apartments as either our Chamber of Commerce. I see a lot of heckling back in the crowd on people speaking up for what they believe in. Everybody's viewpoint is very important. I don't care who you are. So. But that seems to be gets -- it's getting sidestepped here. We're so divided right now on stuff. Instead of trying to make things work for the betterment of Fountain Hills, make these guys work for the betterment of Fountain Hills. The way it sits as proposed breaks all of our -- breaks ordinances, period. And just like you just heard from one of our commissioners, that is the most important. There shouldn't even be a conversation here. They should have several plans in front of you in order to make a correct decision, not just one. And not just one that they want, these guys are going to make a boatload of money. And Dan's right. What is the benefit to Fountain Hills? I want you all to remember what is the benefit to Fountain Hills when you let Adero Canyon get destroyed? How much money has that made the town? Seriously? So everybody's out to make money. You can't fault them for that. But my God, there are so many people that moved here that really don't want this type of density. So take a look at all that and please make the right decision on this. I mean, there still needs to be more discussion. And I said that a month ago. This has been Page 62 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES going on for over a year. I heard some dates that I couldn't even believe. I didn't even know what was going on that long, neither did the residents. And that should tell you something. This was purposely pushed through, and quickly, at Christmas. Because of that, the residents did not know there were so many people in this audience that have their ear to the ground, and I don't think that was correct. So that's why you're having a debate instead of a discussion. And if we had a discussion, we would get what we want. So hopefully you vote accordingly. You get these guys to go back to the books and make that the best development. And we are not against -- there is not -- a bunch of people that are being told that they're against the apartment and this complex. We are not, just want it done right. Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next, and the last speaker on this item, is former councilmember Art Tolis. TOLIS: Thank you. Good evening, council, Mayor. Good evening, town attorney. Nice to be up here. And Councilman Magazine, we agree tonight. There are so many good points in so many discussions tonight that are so valid. The last gentleman that spoke and Dan, who I have a lot of respect for with his commercial development experience and previously managing the Basha's Plaza. There's so many points, making the right deal and making sure this works. I posted a video on December 15th, and in that video, I shared my thoughts on this and my reasons why I think right now, this time is the right time to approve this. Back in 2019, there was discussions as to how are we going to solve the economic issues long term of this community so that we can maintain the infrastructure and we can pay for and maintain this community in the highest degree? A Beverly Hills of Arizona, as I always would say, if we did not pass a property tax. The community has voted down bonds for the schools, our revenue sources, our sales tax revenues, development fees. And ultimately, we're going to need to have those sales tax revenues and this plaza is a critical component to this community and the strength of this community. Target and that entire plaza -- there was one gentleman that talked about being against this 20 years ago, the plaza has never worked. That's not the case. I was here and I was in town 2002. This plaza at one point was vibrant. We had a golf Page 63 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES store there. A matter of fact, I think it was 100 percent. And as times have changed, you've seen changes and you've seen vacancies. Amazon. It's the same principle of what happened to malls and how the downtowns were destroyed by malls because people went to the malls to shop, because they wanted an experience. Well, now that's kind of coming back a little bit, that people want to have an experience. I think this in this project, the vitality is -- I think it's a phenomenal project. I think it's designed off of the Scottsdale Waterfront project. I think it's going to look very, very high end. I think it's going to track a lot of the high -end business people that are going to want to live outside of what's happening in the Scottsdale market, which is really becoming way overbuilt, and the traffic down there is going to be excessive. So this is going to be, I think, a highly desirable project. I think it also is going to do something that no one's brought up yet but I think it has happened at Park Place. You're going to see a lot of transitional housing. And what I mean by that is, and I'll preface this, I'm the co-chair of the Scottsdale Association of Realtors marketing session here in Fountain Hills. I've been a realtor. I've been a mortgage loan officer, I own a mortgage company, I'm in the housing industry, and I own a fitness center. So I mean, business -wise, I think this is great. It's going to bring people and it's going to bring the revenues necessary. And people that live in town now that have large homes that want to downsize, that want to stay in our community and live here and have a vibrant place to live, the walkability of that Target Plaza, I think you're going to have a lot of people that put their houses on the market that now opens up inventory for high -paying executives with families to move to community and to ultimately help the school district. So this is a win -win. Negotiate a good deal. There is some litigation on some of the project. I hope you resolve that. Aaron said you can go into executive session tonight if you had to deal with any type of real estate negotiations, I hope you get it done. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. So Aaron? No. Okay. I'm going to close the public hearing. And what I'd like to do is there were some points that were brought up. I'd like to give the applicants an opportunity because there'll probably be questions that we have, and maybe you can address them. And then we can ask questions of staff and the Page 64 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES applicants, some that were probably generated by what we heard. But if there was anything that you heard there that you want to maybe address, you can do that right now, and then we will ask you questions. MORRIS: Thank you, Mayor. Thank you, council, and thank you to the citizens that spoke tonight. All of the citizens who spoke tonight. It speaks well of your entire town that people are participating. And we've heard both sides of this coin. We've heard a lot, and I'm speaking just of the folks who weren't supportive of this application this evening, but I think those comments could be broken down into really three or four categories. The first was make it something else. And you have a lot of power as a town council, but you don't come equipped with a magic wand, and you can't just decide that you're going to make this something else, by virtue of the fact that there's an active zoning application in front of you. It's as relevant as saying, let's make it a park. The reality is, it's owned by two different parties. One of those parties will enforce the deed restrictions and the deed restrictions are extensive. So when we talk about making it something else, we have to be realistic about what we can make it. We can't manufacture on this site because it's prohibited. Offices: very, very limited if allowed at all. Even other retailers have been kept out of this because of the exemptions on the property. So you don't have the world of choice on this property. What you have is an application in front of you, and we'll talk about what that application brings. But to those who say, make it something else, even this town council can't make that happen. So then we hear that the second group of comments, which I put in a different category, those are try harder, just make it work. It's a retail center. You wanted a retail center, you got a retail center, put retailers in it. That would require changing shopping patterns, not only nationally but internationally. This is a remnant of a bygone retail era. And we know that because we've seen this happen in other jurisdictions, we've seen this happen in other jurisdictions adjacent to you, where bringing a population in, bringing people with wallets to the site saves the retail. And what does that do? That puts money in the town's coffers. But I want to talk to you a little bit about that try harder ethic, because this is a property owner that has gone so far to keep tenants. And Page 65 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES I want to point out, they could fill this site with other tenants. Because what they've tried to do is keep the quality of the tenants in place, because quality begets quality. As you start going down the road of lower quality tenants, that's an easier fruit to pick from the tree. But it's worse for the town and ultimately not as good for the shopping center owner. But I'm going to tell a quick anecdote, Mayor and council, about one of the tenants there. One of the tenants is Petco. I think we're all aware of that. Petco had the right to leave. This property owner -- and I'm going to use a word that's not too strong in this context -- begged Petco to stay in place. Begged them to extend their lease and promised them that they would forward this application to the town. And the only way the property owner kept Petco in that site was to paint a picture of what could be; just give us a little bit of time. We're going to request a residential community as part of this. Where we're going to redevelop the center, if you just give us time. And that was the basis in keeping Petco. So nobody has tried harder. And I'll go a step further. And this probably will not shock anyone on the dais or in this room. Nobody wants to hire a lawyer. I love what I do for a living, but I recognize that their first choice -- they own a shopping center. They are a very successful shopping center company based in the Valley, I'd like to point out, but they're smart enough not to hire zoning lawyers. I'm just an expense. What they would like to do, what they want more than anything is to lease their space. That's the driving factor behind this. They're not keeping that space empty to spite the town or to spite themselves. And they don't want to go through this process, but they recognize they have to go through this process. The other comments we heard come from a line of just follow the rules. Why can't you guys follow the rules? If this application weren't following the rules of your ordinance from your town and your town code, we would be up here requesting an amendment to your ordinance. We would have to amend the text of your ordinance to allow what we're doing. We're not. What we are requesting is permitted by your code. And that's because your code is a modern zoning code that recognizes when the zoning laws were written, it didn't contemplate every type of development that could occur. So there's flexibility in that code. The other reason we know we're not violating your code and not Page 66 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES breaking the rules is because your professional planning staff, the only really, truly neutral party here, is recommending approval of this application and has told you, in your staff report, we're not breaking the rules, we're playing by the rules. And your professional planners have said this is what's best for this property and for the town. And lastly, this idea that, well, where are the benefits? What's in it for the town? I'II answer that in two ways. One: what's in it for the town if this isn't approved? This is already a half vacant center. We've kept tenants by promising a better future by virtue of this application. Without that promise of a better future, we're not going to be able to hold on to our tenants. And the only person, the only group that isn't our tenant is Target. And if Petco is the worst performing Petco in the state, and if Target is the worst performing Target in the state, it doesn't take a under -ocean engineer to figure out what will happen with these stores. We're not going to be able to hold on to them and that isn't good. So what's in it for the town? New development, new tax dollars, new residents, a stable shopping center that's redeveloped, and an investment in the town of Fountain Hills that pays dividends, not just for this applicant, but for the town. With that, I'd be happy to answer any questions. I appreciate all the time you've given me. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. And we'll probably have questions for staff too. So council discussion. Councilwoman? GRZYBOWSKI: I have a quick question. MAYOR DICKEY: Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: Before Jason sits down. Sorry, I just wasn't fast enough. You did mention that one of the reasons why you can't do manufacturing is because it's prohibited. When you first mentioned it, you mentioned that it was prohibited by Target. So I just wanted to reiterate that when the second time when you mentioned it, you forgot that by Target part. So I just wanted to put it out there that council didn't prohibit this. This was a part of Target's agreement with you guys? MORRIS: Mayor, vice mayor, I apologize. Yes, I should have mentioned that both times. The restriction is by virtue of a deed restriction. It's civilly enforced, but it's clear and it's Page 67 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES been signed into -- signed and recorded. So it's easily enforceable. KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you, Ms. Mayor, and thank you for your thoughtful presentation. Really appreciate it. I do have a question, and it's about speculation that I've heard about this project all over town. And so I just want to hit it head-on. There is speculation that Sandor and your law firm has an alternative master plan, one that doesn't seek to rehabilitate this mall and build 316 apartments, but one that seeks to close the Target store and to turn that area into 1,000 low-income housing units. That will be a blight on Fountain Hills forever. Could you address that? MORRIS: Mayor, counciimember, thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to do that. First and foremost, this concept of wanting a master plan that is hidden. Sandor has been very successful. Fortunately, they are one of the top ten largest privately -held shopping center owners in the country. But the emphasis is on shopping centers. They aren't an apartment developer. They aren't an apartment portfolio residential developer. They have no desire to do anything other than make their shopping centers successful. The application is for six acres, roughly a third of the shopping center. We cannot and will not develop anything beyond that six acres, and the impetus for doing so is to create success in the rest of the shopping center. I'd also like to point out that even if we had a dastardly plan to make everything apartments, we couldn't because we don't own the Target parcel so we would have to develop around it. More importantly, Target would not have agreed and signed on to this application if they believed this was somehow working toward their demise. But you mentioned a word that's a trigger word and something that I should have addressed earlier. And that is the idea that this is low-income housing. I heard the terms Section 8 thrown out there. I've heard workforce. I want to be clear. This is a market driven project. This is a market rate development. Now, the sizes of the units obviously allow for a variety of people to take advantage of the fact that this is being developed, this new housing, but it's not being subsidized in any way, shape, or form and not intended as such. Thank you. [CLERKS NOTE] Councilmember Hannah Toth left the dais at 8:57 p.m. and returned at Page 68 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES 8:59 p.m. MAYOR DICKEY: Anybody want to? Oh, I just didn't see anybody on. Go ahead, Brenda. KALIVIANAKIS: John, could I address something with you, please? How long have you been doing developmental services? WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember, I've been in Fountain Hills for almost 5 years, total experience is over 40. KALIVIANAKIS: Over 40 years? WESLEY: Yes. KALIVIANAKIS: Would you consider yourself an expert? WESLEY: Most days. KALIVIANAKIS: Something I'd like to address is the parking situation. That's another concern that a lot of our citizens have had that this is out of zoning, normal regulations and that there's something untoward about this. Does this project have adequate parking or does it not? WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember, some of that was contained in my presentation earlier. I can go back to that if you'd like. But maybe taking a little different approach to it this time, because I've heard this comment, I think at least at the planning zoning commission meeting, and maybe not specifically here, but we did recently update our parking ordinance. The council approved that a couple of months ago, which includes our standard minimum parking requirements for development. And in doing so we kept at that time the standard we've had for a number of years in terms of number of spaces for the one -bedroom, two -bedroom and so forth. As part of updating that ordinance, I looked at a lot of other ordinances from across the country and saw where they were going. Many communities are starting to actually eliminate parking requirements for this type of development and let the market determine how many they should have. But in doing so I saw that what our requirements were, were middle of the road to the high -end of what most communities require for parking. But it served the community well. And for most development that happens here, it's typically a smaller type Page 69 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES development, as we've seen recently, they'll all go with the Gunsight apartment type development, and it works well for that. But it's not necessarily geared to a complex of this size. And when you get a larger project such as this, you get a lot more variety in the types of renters, get more of the single -person type household. I think we talked about and expect this to be the empty nester and a young professional type primarily. And as we reviewed some national statistics and even some local ones on how many cars people actually had that was what was in the report, that one per unit is fairly common. And so with those numbers, I feel like this is going to be adequately parked. And if there does happen to be any overflow, that there would be space then in the Target lot, that those people could go on the as -needed basis. KALIVIANAKIS: So I take it you don't anticipate really any overflow based on the national statistics and the type of person that's going to be living in those units there? WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember, that's correct. One other thing I failed to mention is we've looked at this also -- the two other examples that we include, both Park Place and the Pillar development, which were approved with lower than our normal standard. They have not had any issues with parking in those places. There's adequate parking at both locations. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. Good. And I would like to point out that in Park Place, the overflow parking is a municipal parking spots, correct? WESLEY: That's some of what helps meet their requirement. Yes. KALIVIANAKIS: Right. And in this case, and I know, again, one of the allegations out there has been there's no parking agreement with the Target people. And the people are not telling us the truth or there's misinformation and I'd like to address it. I have a copy of the parking agreement that was signed by Target, and I can substantially identify that as an authentic document. And so that has been taken care of. If there was any overflow parking in this case, it wouldn't be on municipal grounds, would it? WESLEY: That is correct. Technology is posted as no parking. And so you wouldn't park on Shea. So the Target parking lot would be the place. If there is any overflow, that's where we need to go. Page 70 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. Thank you. FRIEDEL: John, I have a question. The general plan has been brought up a lot tonight. WESLEY: Yes. FRIEDEL: I've gone through that general plan several times, and I don't ever remember seeing anything specifically addressing high -density housing down in that Target center. Can you comment on that? WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember Friedel, there is a provision in the character area descriptions for the Shea Corridor. And the language that was included in the presentation comes directly from that page of the plan. Let's see. Yes. These statements come directly from that page of the plan. FRIEDEL: And that says creating an integrated mixed -use environment. Now I can see that down in town with Park Place, but this is a little bit different. It's kind of set far away from the downtown area. I don't agree with the fact that it's walkable. Walkable to what? Target? WESLEY: Correct. FRIEDEL: That doesn't resonate with me. And then I had a question about attracting families to this project. We only have, what, a little over a dozen three -bedroom apartments. I don't know too many families that are going to be raising a one- or two - bedroom apartment. Maybe the applicant would want to comment on that. WESLEY: Sure. All right. Mayor, Councilmember, I'll let him come up just a moment. But this slide takes what's in their proposal for what their target is. And it's young professionals, empty nesters, and those that want a lock -and -leave lifestyle. While some families might come that's not really their target. MORRIS: Mayor, Councilman. FRIEDEL: Okay. So getting to the attracting families to this project, you have a very limited number of three -bedroom apartments, which typically would be housing families. I don't see many families in one-, maybe, two -bedroom, but you don't have enough, in my mind, enough three -bedroom apartments in this project to attract families. And then what other uses are down there for families? Now, I know you're Page 71 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES going to have a pool, but is there a playground area? Is there anything family oriented down there? And then get into the walkability of where are they going to walk to down there versus the Park Place development, which is down in our town. They can walk to the lake, they can walk to some of the schools in the area and library and the museum and the soon to be Dark Sky Discovery Center. If you could comment on that? MORRIS: Thank you, Mayor, Councilman. A few different thoughts on that. First of all, in terms of the number of three -bedroom units what we're being allowed to do if this application is approved this evening is a maximum number of units. If during the time of planning, when we get into engineering, when we get closer to actually breaking ground, we feel that there is a demand for larger units, we can convert some of the smaller units to larger units and actually the density will drop. So that is one option. Secondly, it also depends upon how you define families. I mean, whether the family includes a child or not is also optional. It could be just couples because couples are a family as well. Lastly, as we look at the amenities for this area, because you had a question about what amenities would be available and whether we were contemplating doing active amenities for children, I point out that a typical home, if it was a single- family home, may have a backyard. They may or may not have a pool. They may or may not have a spa. We will have those amenities. We will have open space with active and passive amenities. So whether it's a park or surrounding the area, we haven't programed those because we don't know our tenant mix and we also don't know what our approvals ultimately will look like. But we've reserved two or three open space areas to be programed within the community itself. And that programing, if justified, could include a play set. And we've already notified or identified one of our open spaces as a dog park area. And so it very well could have a children's amenity if we find that those are the tenants who take interest in this. Because you have to remember when you develop these, first of all, there's a period of time between council approval as Mr. Shea pointed out, and actually breaking ground. Once you break ground, there is a lead time on construction during which you will pre -lease. And if during that pre -lease period, you find that your demographic is something that you weren't expecting or Page 72 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES there's a better amenity for that demographic, we still have the ability to make those changes. Lastly, you had asked about the walkability of this project, and the answer to that, I think, lies in other projects that are similar to this. And I'll give you just a few answers. One, Scottsdale Road and Thunderbird, where we've done precisely the same thing with a shopping center that was too large for modern day shopping needs. It was housing a church, and the idea was what could keep this shopping center viable long-term. So they chose the City of Scottsdale -- actually, it was on the Phoenix side of Scottsdale Road. The City of Phoenix, in that instance, allowed a multifamily development to save that shopping center. And if we look at what surrounds that shopping center, it's the air park. So you've got the air park on the east side of Scottsdale Road. You have some stores, and then you have neighborhoods and businesses in the area very similar to what we're talking about here, in that there's no immediate large park. But urban dwellers and what we're finding more and more, whether it's Scottsdale Road and McDowell, where we did exactly the same thing in the City of Scottsdale, or Scottsdale Road and Thunderbird, or in Chandler, they're not looking to be on the town square and have a 40-acre park immediately adjacent to them. But if they do, it's fantastic. What they're looking for is activity. And that activity may take the form of being in the middle of a shopping center. We also have other retail at that intersection, so not just the Four Peak center, but in addition, a short walk from there you have access to trails. So it's not impossible to think of this as a very walkable mixed -use. FRIEDEL: Can you give us any kind of assurance that Target is going to stick around? What your plan for that parcel, that development, if in two years, you get ready to build and Target is packing up and they're leaving, what happens then? MORRIS: Mayor -- FRIEDEL: Let me finish one more point. Do you have any kind of agreement with Target to move them out at any point? MORRIS: Mayor, Councilman, I'll answer the latter part of that. No, we do not. In fact, I'll go a step further. Not only is there no agreement to move them out, there is no Page 73 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES ability legally, despite the zoning, regardless of the zoning, to do residential on any other portion of this property because it is still under the deed restrictions that don't permit residential. It is only on this portion of the property that Target has permitted residential. So quite the contrary, there will be no more ability to do that unless Target agrees. Moreover, what we can guarantee because as I mentioned, this is a shopping center owner. This is not a residential developer. What we can guarantee and what is as close to an absolute as possible, is without this Target will leave. Can I promise that Target will stay forever if this is built? No, because Target will do what Target wants to do. But we will -- we are assured that the reason they are staying, the reason they are working with us and working with the town to make this happen, is so they can stay, and so that they can be more successful. FRIEDEL: One final question. You mentioned that you don't know your tenant mix. Is there any possible -- taking another look at the density on this, on this project and coming up with something that would fall a little bit more in line with what our ordinance calls for. MORRIS: Mayor, Councilman. These are all good questions and these are thoughtful questions. So I appreciate them and I want to make sure the council understands. This wasn't our first blush. We didn't just throw together an application to see if this would work, or to see if this could happen. This is something that, before we even thought of applying, there were years of plans and thoughts about how to save this center. That led to a multifamily component. In choosing the multifamily, there are basically three different types of multifamily you could look at. We could have looked at a garden style. Garden style buildings are typically three-story walk ups. I'm sure you're familiar with them. I lived in enough of them. And they're surface parked, so they'll have some carports and three-story buildings, and that's typically like 22 units to the acre, somewhere between 18 and 22 units to the acre. And then there are podium projects. Podium projects aren't wrapped around a parking structure. Those have a parking structure that sit underneath them and they're built on top of them. Those are typically taller buildings and more dense, because the cost of that type of construction is higher. Page 74 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES A wrap, the type that's being proposed here, this is actually on the low end of the size, the density for a wrap, because wrap buildings are higher quality because you're building a parking structure, which is expensive, but it's better looking. But it needs the density to justify building this type of project. And it works well on a site like this, that's an odd shape where you've only got six acres. On six acres, you really can't do garden style, so you're looking at either podium or wrap, and a wrap is less dense. The other thing I'd like to answer, because you brought up density and how that works, almost every other jurisdiction that we've worked in when we do this type of mixed -use considers the entire site to be a mixed -use. If we were to consider our entire site as a mixed -use, we would actually be well within your density limits under the low end of those. It just so happens that our density is only calculated on the small portion that we're building on, rather than the shopping center, which is really, truly how this works. If it was calculated on the shopping center, it would be closer to 12 units to the acre. But because we're talking about just that piece, in this instance, the density is higher. MAYOR DICKEY: I'm sorry. Brenda, I want to ask, probably, Aaron I think a question. And it has to do with the tools that are available to any developer or any applicant to most cities and towns, if they are requesting something that's outside of the existing zoning ordinance. So when a city and a town or a town creates their zoning ordinance, they create the tools for applicants to ask to go outside of those boundaries. Is that is that a fair statement? ARNSON: Mayor and council, that is correct. Essentially any, as the applicant's attorney put it, any modern zoning code is going to have a provision, which ours does, for something that's either P.A.D., P.U.D. -- P.U.D. is a little bit outdated nowadays, but a planned area development or for some other form of rezoning whereby an applicant can say we're requesting something that's specifically or something specific, that is a deviation in some form or fashion, whether height, density, setbacks from your existing zoning ordinance. Our ordinance does indeed have that process in place, and that's the process that the developer has chosen to apply for and utilize here tonight. MAYOR DICKEY: So the idea that it's not -- that it's saying our ordinances aren't good or Page 75 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES that we're going around them or we're breaking the rules, we're actually following rules that are written in our zoning ordinance to give applicants an opportunity to say, look, this -- and we've seen it a million times because there's sometimes our ordinances, the Hillside Ordinance, for example, which you know, is great and I'm really glad we have it, but sometimes we make a builder do something that makes it look worse. So you know, it's worth having these tools. And the other part of that question is, though, we have the tools to request variances or changes, why would that mean that the applicant owes us some sort of reward or there seem to be some idea that we should be getting some sort of a deal out of this. And I actually questioned the legality of that, but I also question why, if they're following our rules and are just asking us, do we want to allow this change, why would that mean that we would require some kind of a reward? ARNSON: So Mayor, I actually have a couple of thoughts in response to that, if you'll allow me and if the council will allow me. Typically, when there's some sort of bargain for consideration, a "I give this and you get that" and vice versa, you're going to do that in the form of a development agreement, which is possible right, in virtually any circumstance. Whether it's desirable in a given circumstance is a different story. And Mr. Morris does a lot more work in this area than I do, but my experience with this is okay, if you're looking for some — a project that's going to happen with phase development or where there's roadway or infrastructure that's going to be deeded to the town, or where there's necessary additional assurances or bonding that's going to need to be given. That's when you would enter into a development agreement. But it is by no means a requirement or even necessarily all that common for them to happen in every instance. And indeed, we've done plenty of rezoning requests. Granted, plenty of rezoning requests that aren't accompanied by a development agreement. And the last point that I'll make, Mayor, is even when you do have a DA, rezonings don't happen via a DA, they are companion, right? You have a companion rezone with a development agreement. So either way, if you're changing building standards, if you're changing height, if you're changing setbacks, you're going to be getting a companion one way or another. So this application is not out of the ordinary from a legal perspective. If that Page 76 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES answers the question. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Brenda? KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. My last questions, and I promise I'll be brief, are to Director Jacobs, could you please come back? You're still under oath. JACOBS: Mayor, Councilmember. I raise my right hand. KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you very much. I just wanted to drill down just on a couple of things that were mentioned recently. As far as walkability is concerned I'd like to just make a short statement, and then I'd like for you to describe to the audience and to the council about vertical versus horizontal multiuse agreements. But before I do that as far as the walkability is concerned, if you were to purchase or to lease an apartment from here, the way I look at it it's walkable to go to Target, of course. That's the general retail store. And it's also got a grocery store. And so you've also got a grocery store. And so you've also got a grocery store and a retail store. You've got two restaurants. You got Denny's, Streets of New York. You've got a clothing store, a Dollar Store, and you mentioned we might even have a Walgreens if they're induced to come back. So it seems it seems like you could live here without a car, survive, and walk everywhere you need to go to survive. And of course, there's the Amazon option, too. But could you describe what I just asked you? JACOBS: Madam Mayor, Councilmember Kalivianakis, I think you described it for me. I can say, yes, that is true. So walkability again, from the proposed apartments to Target, the pedestrian pathways, we have sidewalks along Shea. So again, if you choose to walk and want to grab a bite at the Denny's, if the Walgreens were to reopen or be redeveloped, of course, you can walk. That's walkability, through sidewalks or again, through the pedestrian pathways that the applicant and Director Wesley described. And then as far as -- unless you want me to clarify more about the mixed -use and the vertical and horizontal. So again, as Mr. Morris said, looking at the whole shopping center, and again, you really are looking at this one particular area. But I like to look at the whole shopping center, again in economic development, future thinking. And so this is a mixed of uses, having residential -- so the population feeding into the Page 77 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES commercial. And so what I meant too about horizontal and again being native to Arizona and you guys know from the southern Arizona we appreciate the mountain views. So you would see a lot of the, the horizontal, the shopping may be then a mixed - use of apartments. And so mixed -use, again, if you're from LA, if you're from Chicago, from New York, you may be used to what you're seeing at Park Place. And again, if you've just moved here, you're used to it can just be residential to the top and commercial on the bottom. That too could be different. You could put apartments on the bottom, you could put a major employer on top. Again, there's a variety of uses. And of course, you want to look at market demand as, again, professional staff has and the applicant with the proposed project. KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. And thank you. And I think that's precisely it. I think people think more of Park Place and the traditional retail on the bottom and housing on the top. But there's also another model that I think we're entertaining here. And so thank you. Thank you for illuminating that, because I think a lot of people, they just don't understand. And so they say that, well, this can't be a mixed -use. It actually can if you consider it horizontal not vertical. Lastly, this will be my last question, there was some confusion as to does this meet the needs and demands of our general plan? And could you again just enlighten us on how this has a symbiotic relationship with the general plan of Fountain Hills? JACOBS: So Madam Mayor, Councilmember Kalivianakis, again, Mr. Wesley, Director Wesley pointed those out with the housing, again, a diverse mix of uses being attractive. I don't have all of the verbiage, but it ties into that. It ties into our strategic plan. And then, of course, all those documents fed into -- working on for over a year, our community economic development strategy. So it is all in alignment. KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you. JACOBS: You're very welcome. KALIVIANAKIS: You may be seated. JACOBS: Prefer standing. MAYOR DICKEY: So does anybody have any other comments or questions? Page 78 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES TOTH: I did -- GRZYBOWSKI: Oh, sorry. TOTH: I thought she was looking at me. I'm sorry, Madam Mayor. If I could ask the applicant's attorney, a quick, clarifying question? It should be fast. I just saw a couple eyebrows raised when you were commenting earlier. You had mentioned that there was the possibility of filling the retail area with maybe lower quality business owners, and I just saw a couple questions, it seemed like. So I wanted to give you the opportunity to expand on that. What would the -- what would an example be? And don't say a business name. I'm not trying to get you in trouble, but what would be an example of a type of business that was a lower quality or however that was worded, that was denied the ability to be in there as an example of looking out for us? MORRIS: Thank you. Mayor, Councilmember, I should point out that they do not want lower quality tenants and they do not want less desirable tenants. And when we talk about that, their business model is creditworthy national credit tenants, because that's the best tenants you can have. It makes the shopping center more valuable. These are typically tenants that pay the best rents and are, more importantly, more reliable. You don't get the turnover with a national credit tenant. When you don't have the ability to draw a national credit tenant and you have vacancy, and without mentioning the types of businesses or certainly not business names. All I can ask you to do is think about arterial roadways that you have driven down where there is no national tenant. There is no brand in that shopping center. What do you typically see? You'll see some services. You may see some -- I'll call them non -chartered financial institutions. You'll see various businesses that may not be national. They may be -- and they may be struggling local businesses who deserve a shot at being in a shopping center with other national tenants. But by and large, you find businesses that don't necessarily add value to the shopping center or the community. And I don't want to disparage any industry. I'll just say you've probably seen them. TOTH: Okay. Thank you so much for that clarification. Piggybacking off that. With the national credit of the businesses that are currently there, what would be the best Page 79 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES descriptor for why pre-COVID, we had some issues trying to get retail or any industry in there. MORRIS: Mayor, Councilmember, I think most people in the retail industry will tell you COVID didn't cause -- and hopefully I didn't point out COVID as a cause for this because COVID didn't cause the vacancies. COVID contributed to them. And COVID, to a large extent, was the nail in the coffin of a retail industry that was already going in a certain direction. Pre-COVID, if you looked at the size of a -- just to pick a business -- Best Buy. Versus what Best Buy really needs today by virtue of the online business that they do, it was already trending in a direction where the United States had more per capita retail space than any other nation on Earth. And if you looked at the west in the United States versus the east, we had more per capita retail space than the east. And if you look at Arizona and then you drill down to the Valley, you saw that our per capita retail space was far in excess of national averages. But more importantly, what was deemed now necessary based upon how many different shopping options we had that maybe weren't available 20 years ago. So COVID didn't cause this, but COVID just cemented the comfort level of not going to a store. So it really was the demise of a lot of uses. So what's happened? What have we seen? We've seen now retail come back because new retail is being built smaller. And the retail spaces that exist are largely being taken by experiences, experiential services, fitness. Things that you cannot click a button and have delivered to your door, so restaurants. The types of things that you're seeing shopping centers built around are those type of uses with a contributing factor of having a residential component. So I think I've shared with you some of the other projects that I've worked on. Those projects, when redeveloped, whether it's a shopping center at, you know, Osborne and 7th Avenue that's now a New Sprouts and a residential component. And it was just a large strip center. When I look at what was across from Los Arcos Mall, Papago Plaza, and it's now a residential community much like this. And Sprouts is going in and you're getting different retail. They're new retailers, but it's heavily skewed towards restaurants, spa services, quasi -medical and medical, and then the ability to do services along with retailers that you typically won't be able to find Page 80 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES easily on the internet, so handmade goods, unique services, unique soft and hard goods, which is really the hope and the Tight at the end of the tunnel for what we're doing today. TOTH: Well, thank you so much for those clarifications. I had one final question. And you know what? It left my brain. So I guess I'll pass over to Councilman Skillicorn until I remember. MORRIS: Mayor, Councilmember, that's my strategy. I know if I talk long enough. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: No, nothing. Madam Mayor. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilman? SKILLICORN: Thank you, Madam Mayor. So I really believe that process matters on this. So there's a couple questions that I kind of want to ask us and staff. You know, I'm concerned, curious, because this obviously is a hearing, you know, has anyone on this council been lobbied or had ex parte conversations with Sandor? I mean, I'd actually like the camera angle opened up so we can see -- I mean, let's go down the row. Have you been lobbied or had ex parte consult -- MAYOR DICKEY: Excuse me? This -- SKILLICORN: I have -- I have the floor, I'm sorry. MAYOR DICKEY: You have an accusation to make and -- SKILLICORN: No, I'm just curious -- MAYOR DICKEY: The hearing is over because I -- the hearing is over. SKILLICORN: I think the public has a right to know if anyone's had ex parte conversations with Sandor. Can we go down the row? MAYOR DICKEY: No, we're not doing that. SKILLICORN: Are you going to refuse the public from this, seeing this? Is there anyone here -- MAYOR DICKEY: If you want us to -- SKILLICORN: Is there anyone here who has taken campaign cash from Sandor? MAYOR DICKEY: Oh my gosh. Page 81 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES MCMAHON: (Indiscernible) out of line. SKILLICORN: I would like -- I would like the people of the town to know. You don't believe in -- we're going to rush this through, process be damned. And we're not going to answer questions like this. MAYOR DICKEY: Process? SKILLICORN: I mean, we're rushing this through. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilmember -- SKILLICORN: We don't know -- and we're having no transparency here. Is this the process we want in this town? MCMAHON: Councilmember. I object to your -- and I'm going to use this word, vulgar accusations. They're inappropriate. You have no proof that I know of, and I -- this is not a hearing any longer. You know, maybe it's you that's doing that. Since you're making the accusations, how does it feel? SKILLICORN: Well, someone here asked me to recuse myself, so I'm curious if anyone else here -- MCMAHON: Again, this is so inappropriate for what's happening right now. I'm asking you to just not continue with it. SKILLICORN: So is that -- you're saying that you're against transparency? MAYOR DICKEY: Please do not speak until you're recognized. Aaron? ARNSON: Yeah. Mayor, I understand the councilman's question. It seems like that the -- he's made his point and the council's not -- we're not going to entertain the discussion. Mayor, I would suggest that we move on. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: I don't have any questions. I'm ready to move on with comments or whatever else we want to do. If there's no other questions from anybody else. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. SKILLICORN: I'd like to make a motion to table so we can go to executive session. MCMAHON: I would like to make a comment and -- thank you. Firstly, I would like to say thank you for everybody for your public comments. I would like to thank staff and Page 82 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Sandor for their very, very informative presentations. You have really addressed a lot of my questions. I would also like to thank Mayor and council for their intuitive questions as well. So I'm not going to reiterate them because they have answered my questions. And what I've heard tonight is most everybody has said that this is a failed retail center. It has major deed restrictions on what can be there, but we need to do something about it. And in addition, this is happening on the local and the national levels, it's not just happening in Fountain Hills. Nationally, federally, efforts are being made to encourage, through financial incentives, converting these vacant commercial centers to rezone them for residential use to provide new housing opportunities for our communities. In addition, this is happening right now at our state level as well. Representative Ortez just introduced legislative bill number 2997 that mirrors this type of change in commercial zoning. The bill, when passed, will make it easier to make zoning changes on these dormant properties and convert empty commercial buildings into mixed -use for residential purposes. As stated tonight, this is in our strategic and general plan. This has already been planned for, in general, for the Shea corridor. In addition, as Amanda stated, this is a financial opportunity for the town and it is going to provide much needed housing. Taking all of this into consideration, I can't help but support this. I think Sandor has presented a very well -developed presentation and I am for the rezoning and when it's appropriate, I'd like to make a motion to approve this as stated in the agenda. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. And I know that the vice mayor has some -- just comments, not questions. Right? Is that what you're saying? GRZYBOWSKI: That was my point, was I just didn't want to go on until we were sure there was no other questions. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Councilmember? FRIEDEL: I want to -- MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. And I'd like to say a few things, too, but. Okay. Vice mayor. GRZYBOWSKI: First, thank you guys for coming. I appreciate those of you that came Page 83 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES and spoke. I appreciate the written public comments that we had, which was a whole lot. I already forgot how many it was. One of my pet peeves sitting up here is everybody has an opinion. But you're not letting us know where you stand. And then you give us crap when we get off the dais because we didn't agree with whatever your magical thought in your head was. We need you to speak up. We need more of this. We need more of this spoken. We need more of the written, I appreciate it. One of the things that I did not hear today, and I really appreciate it, because there was a crap ton of it on social media and online. Nobody used the term, "those people", or "riff-raff". And I totally appreciate that because honestly, many of us started out as renters and some of us are actually renters now. What I am going to ask you in your head, and those people watching at home that I know have used the term "those people", because it was used for Daybreak, it was used for the mountainside property. Take a second and think about how you define "riff-raff" or how you define "those people". Good news. Our reputation precedes us and they don't want to live here. They don't want to live with us. To them, we are those people. To them we are RWAs. And I will only tell you what the RW stands for. You can Urban Dictionary, the A. The RW is rich and white, which a lot of people online are going to be happy with because of some of the really horrible comments we've all read. Let's not forget, no matter where you live or how much you spend on your house, you never actually know who your neighbor is. There are currently six sex offenders registered in Fountain Hills. Four are a level two, which is a moderate risk of re - offending, and two are a level three, which is a high risk of committing another sex crime. There are 58 people with warrants that use Fountain Hills as their residential address. I reviewed 25 of those 64 people, and none of them gave apartment addresses for our Pillar, Park Place, Luna, or Four Peaks communities. Our town's character is already defined. We're just trying to give people a choice in their housing type while we get rid of some of the commercial vacancies, which everybody agrees we have too many of. I've spoken with people that currently rent or have rented in Pillar, Four Peaks, Park Place, and Luna apartments. My very informal survey of over two-year apartment Page 84 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES residents say that their complex's average age reflects that of the town's average age, and the character or vibe that their complex gives off is identical to that of the town. My personal experience in Pillar in one and a half years is very similar to what I just told you there. Many of us in Pillar have sold our homes here in Fountain Hills and have downsized, and most of my neighbors are full-time residents. Not everyone wants a 3,500 square foot home. Not everyone wants to spend $1 million on a house. Not everyone wants to buy. Some of us like that "close the door and leave the house without any worries" kind of lifestyle that my husband and I have just recently gone to. This complex that we're talking about allows people market -priced apartment living. Notice that I said market priced. I didn't use the word affordable because I've read your Facebook posts and I know you automatically hear low income and Section 8 when somebody uses the word affordable. That's not what we're talking about here. According to Zumper.com as of December 2023, the median rent for all bedroom counts and property types in Fountain Hills is 36 percent higher than that of the national average. Side note, I have been informed that we do have some people that own houses that accept Section 8 for tenants. Just letting you know it's already out there. You already know a lot of people that will live there, people that want to sell their home and downsize, the teachers in our schools, our new firewomen and men, your kids and your grandkids. I'd be negligent if I didn't remind you that we have business owners in town that don't live here, that would like to live here, and this might give them an opportunity to do so. I'd like to address some of the concerns that I've heard over the past couple of months. Traffic, a full capacity strip mall brings more traffic than an at capacity apartment complex. During a two-hour car count on my side of the Pillar complex, which is 92 units, there were a total of 51 cars and six walkers. When I'm stopped at the stoplight to leave Target, there's generally at least four cars that are there with me. If you factor in a two -minute light cycle -- which I'm guessing, I didn't actually time it -- that's about 120 cars per hour and the strip mall isn't fully occupied. Density. One of the complaints that I've heard about this, that we heard about Daybreak and that we heard about -- or Page 85 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES actually one of the complaints that I've heard about Daybreak and Mountainside was that the property was too dense in that area for the single family homes that were around it. Those kinds of complexes should be downtown, is what I was told about Daybreak and Mountainside. With this layout, with commercial on the east and residential on the west, you're creating a downtown type environment and allowing them to walk to shopping and restaurants. Yes, even in 110 degrees. In Pillar, I walk to the chamber. I walk to American Grill. Yes, 110 degrees. I'm outside for eight minutes. It doesn't kill you. Walkability is subjective. A reminder, actually, I believe the councilwoman already mentioned that we've got grocery inside of Target. So you've got grocery, you've got shopping, there's restaurants. And I know a gal that if this goes through, she's got a very unique business that she would like to propose to the owners, which I'm not going to mention because I don't want to spoil the fun for her. But walkability is subjective. One of the comments was loss of use. They've gone to great lengths to make sure that we don't block the views from your home. And they had some great artistry work on that. Too many apartments is one of the complaints I've seen on social media as well. Our apartment vacancy rate is less than ten percent now. I think it's like five or seven percent. You may think that apartment management companies want consistent at - capacity housing, but that's not so. I understand they prefer an 88 to 90 percent occupancy as a good number. It allows for showings, immediate move ins, and allows them to switch out a dishwasher for an existing tenant instead of making that tenant wait two to four weeks for a new one to arrive. Because, you know, they don't drive to Home Depot and get a dishwasher. They go through their people and that always takes a couple of weeks to happen. Adding this project to our diverse housing will not flood the market, and there's no worry about having too many rental units. We've heard that -- we heard that from Mr. Shea when he spoke earlier, and we've seen that in an email that we all received from a former council member as well. And one more thing I'd like to say is we lose relevance if we don't change with the times. And I think this complex allows us the opportunity to change with the times. Thank you Page 86 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES mayor. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. FRIEDEL: Thank you, Mayor. I just want to make a brief statement. I want to thank all the residents who came to the meeting tonight. It's great to see all this community involvement and hear both sides of this and all the comments. So again, I appreciate that. I also want to start by saying I really like the project. It looks great. The reason it's coming to this council is because it doesn't fit within the town's current zoning code, and not just by a little bit, but by quite a bit. That 30-plus increase in density also creates a parking shortage, whether it's addressed or not, with an agreement through Target. Who knows and who knows where these people will end up parking. It may not be at the Target store, so that's a concern that I have. I also want to note that our planning and zoning commission denied this request when it came before them earlier this month, for some of the same reasons I mentioned here. I understand that our existing apartment complexes are doing well and have excellent occupancy rates, and that's great. We currently have over 300 more apartments in projects approved already by this town. So how many? Nobody has said how many apartments are adequate for this town. We still don't know that number. Including Park Place, which hasn't been completed yet so we're waiting on that as well. Listen, change is inevitable. We all know that. And it must be done clearly, measured, and to the benefit of all. Our 2020 general plan adopted by the town and its residents, by a vote was put in place to help us monitor this change and for the protection of our residents and the town to maintain that special and unique character which was mentioned in the book that was written on the history of this town. When Mr. McCullough originally started this town, he said, this town is unique, and the character is going to be different. He set this town up to attract people here from metropolitan areas. So my concern with this density is that we're going to become another one of those metropolitan areas like Scottsdale or something like that. So again, I want to state I would not be opposed to this development at Four Peaks Plaza if it fit within our town's zoning ordinance. Developers overbuilt that retail space probably some 20-plus Page 87 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES years ago. In fact, I was cleaning out my car. I found the original newspaper article where it says Target was tabled again. So they had questions when that was put into place. That's 23 years old. How I had this, I don't know. But it just so happened that I found that in my car. So again, there were questions. It was in a box with my jumper cables. But anyway, there were questions when that was built. There's questions with this one being built right now too. So my point is, I guess, I don't want us to create another problem. Let's make sure we do this the right way and within our codes. So I will be a no vote on this proposal as written. And follow the recommendation of our planning and zoning commission. That doesn't mean it can't come back, if it doesn't fly. But that's all I have to say. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Yes, Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Yes. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. I'll just make a very brief statement. I had written a very inspirational and eloquent close to tonight, but I think that's all been done by the citizens of our town and by the presentations here tonight. So I'm going to save everybody my presentation. I would like to state that Mr. Skillicorn and his accusations are basically slander. They're in a public forum, and he does a discredit to this entire council by making empty allegations. If I'm keeping my facts straight, the only one currently under ethics investigation is you. But back to the project. I don't want to beat a dead horse because if I were to sit here and pontificate, that's what they would accuse me of. So tomorrow on Facebook, they would say, not only would the no people be against me, but then I'd have the animal rights people against me too. So I'm going to keep it short. And I'd like to second Peggy's motion to go to a vote. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. I do have a couple of things to say as I know that some of you may have lived here longer than I, but not many -- 40 years. I know that -- yes, I know some have, not many. So what I want to address first is this two things the redefining of the community by people that haven't been here for 40 years, and the policy plans that we've talked about quite a bit tonight. I'm going to start with the most obvious one, which is the general Page 88 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES plan that we just brought that up, 2020. You've already heard verbatim why this project perfectly aligns with it. Overbuilt retail areas need to be redeveloped. We need multi - residential development that is geared to creating an integrated and mixed -use environment. But maybe people are under the impression that the general plan is just some kind of top down, unrealistic document that's on a shelf someplace. Because that's what you know or that is not actually being used. But in fact, the general plan does guide the town, like Gerry said, staff in making decisions. As the town continues to grow and experience changes it's the foundation used in establishing zoning regulations. Zoning regulations that include the tools to ask for consideration to go outside those zoning regulations. They're there for that reason. Develop our strategic plan, create capital improvement, amend the town code, and also, it's a good thing to have if you want to go for grants. Not only is it a good thing to have, though, the Arizona law requires that we have a general plan and it needs to be updated every ten years. And the plan -- the state says the plan has to include land use, circulation, open space, growth, environment, and such, but it also may include economic development and housing, which ours does. So I just found this in my car too -- no. But this is a list of the people that were involved with our general plan -- directly involved 2020. You probably can't see it, but plenty more and a lot of meetings that we had. And so there was a lot of input not only into the general plan, but also it was ultimately approved by the council and put before the voters in 2020. And much like the Target center, which was approved twice in your newspaper by two to one margins, because it was a zone change and it was a general plan change. So it went -- and then the voters -- so it was put to the voters, and it was approved two to one in 1998. And the general plan passed with 71 percent of the vote. So it's kind of a similar margin there. As an aside, when they were talking about Target, the town agreed to split the sales tax with them up to about I think it was like it was $900,000-something, to like $1 million. And that was supposed to be a ten year -plan, but they met the $1 million threshold in five. So we've been collecting 100 percent of the sales tax ever since whenever that Page 89 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES was, 2004 or 5. Next is strategic plan. So the strategic plan that was in existence at the time when the general plan was voter -approved and is part of the general plan, includes this, quote, "increase population and residential densities to sustain existing and future commercial businesses in town by: a) rezoning underutilized commercial property to residential where feasible and as opportunities to do so present themselves; b) allowing residential uses on commercially zoned properties as appropriate and beneficial to support commercial activity and that character area; and c) rezoning unplotted land for greater density and affordable family housing." That was in the strategic plan, which obviously council approved, was part of the general plan approved by voters. Similarly, Vision Fountain Hills, which was a work product of FHCCA, many, many volunteers, lots of meetings put forth the goal of attracting younger families and intergenerational community. So last and most recent, the economic development plan was adopted seven - zero, as you've heard last September. After the presentation when Amanda said we would be pursuing redevelopment of the Target Center, specifically, collaborating with owners, everybody there was very supportive of the plan -- I read the minutes last night -- and happy that it wasn't just a plan, but there was going to be action. Not one person, including this council or public members here now, or who may have been there then, objected to this particular goal that I just mentioned. There were some people that were -- did not like if we did more administrative changes or things like that, there were little things people liked and didn't like. Not one person had an issue with this housing part of it and working with Shea. And again, collaborating with the property owner of Four Peaks Plaza, just like she said in her presentation. And it also included this phrase, "diversify housing opportunities within Fountain Hills by pursuing multifamily and workforce housing developments with amenities that are desired by younger professionals." That was written down. It was in that matrix of the implementation of the economic development plan. The idea that this tonight is somehow a surprise, I looked back on my last two states of the town. I've mentioned Shea, redeveloping of Page 90 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES Shea, twice, so not even just last January, the January before. So the idea that it's underhanded or secret or we're getting money for it or it's ill-conceived does not jive with the history or with reality. But I do want to talk a little bit about history, because there's a lot of talk presuming what this town -- how to define it. You all know how, why I moved here, or we all know why each other moved here. Views, desert beauty, the things that we all know, obviously, that's why. Those are going to come to mind. But it's quite a leap to say that we were escaping urban nightmares or something like that. I understand the fact that we even were formed was because President Kennedy at the time said, we want to make one -- it was supposed to be 100,000 populations -- but we want 100 cities -- called the 100 cities thing. And they grabbed it, McCullough, and came out. But the idea that it was an escape -- I mean, I moved here from New Hampshire, so it wasn't like the urban, you know, nightmare. One resident said no one has -- actually, two -- said no one has a right to live here. People earn the right by being very productive in their lives. So with police, firefighters, teachers and nurses, are you saying that they're not productive enough in their lives? Another said we should promote condos to bring a better class of people here. Some went further -- and I know we said about going there -- but some did go further. Talk about party affiliation and race. So when I moved here in '83, we were young, obviously not yet very productive; in our 20s. We were not wealthy. We weren't white. And I will give you this, I was Republican, so. But we lived in several places in town and I've rented in several places in town. My family likes going to Target. They've always liked going to Target. I don't think it was a mistake. 20-plus years of shopping and we had a Ross, we had the Pier 1, Petco's still there, and so on. Meetings at Starbucks. Even going to Blockbuster, remember that? So those are memories, the memories in our lives. To say that today is a proof that something that's been in existence and still exists for 22 years is a mistake. I'm sorry. Many people had jobs there. People have jobs there now. Some people were going through hardships. They had jobs there. Help them go through some illnesses, help you get through a divorce. Page 91 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES No one's going to convince me that bringing my kids and their friends at the time, or my grandkids now down to Target during the holidays is all for naught, because a mistake was made by the populace who voted it in twice in 1998. I'm proud we voted that. I'm proud of the council at the time that made that decision, even though an email that we got called them all kinds of names, that they were ignorant to do so. I think it was a great decision. And I would just like to say that I think there's been plenty presented here to indicate a very thorough, a very responsive process, one with careful, experienced staff who participated and made recommendations in order to support moving ahead. This is a business, a school, and a community friendly multi -million dollar investment in the town of Fountain Hills, and I think we should support it. Any other comments or questions? Yes, ma'am. TOTH: Thank you, Mayor. I know we have a motion on the table. I started out with this much to say, ended up with this much to say. Realized we'd all want to go home before midnight tonight if possible, so I scratched most of it out, so bear with me if it's a little disjointed. First and foremost, I want to make it extraordinarily clear that I have not been bullied, politically pressured, or otherwise unethically swayed in my decision -making. I will also make it clear I have neither the impression nor suspicion that the earlier accusations are based in reality. If the former is a rumor being spread, I would highly encourage the spreader of said rumor to learn a very important difference between voters holding someone accountable for their own words and bullying or political pressure. I've heard that language before in other issues, and it just perked my ears when it came up today. That I think there's a huge difference between a voter saying, you said you'd stand a certain way on issues like this, and now you're not what's going on, and something that would be considered unethical. Moving on from that. When we first heard about this project, I was so excited that we're finally looking at new ideas for the area. I think I don't quite have our mayor's record. I'm at 25 years, but we're getting there. In my defense, I wasn't born yet, but -- this has been an area that's needed to be looked at since, as far as I can remember, Page 92 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES which wasn't too long into its life. This development and I were born in the same year, '98. I, for one, would very much like somewhere to live in town. Full disclosure, I know what it's like to be a young professional. I am one, I have $300 to my name, and 200 of it is because the council paid me today. I'm well aware what that struggle is like, and I'm well aware of what it's like right now to be looking for places to rent in town. I'm fortunate to have somewhere to stay in town. And I also recognize that I'm in a unique position where I need to stay in town, I'm on the council and so my original understanding of this issue was that heck, yeah, where do I sign? Let me live here. But my perspective was broadened. Specifically, from people that I know that currently live in Scottsdale and are concerned about the overdevelopment in that area. I have a friend from Florida that experienced that in her small town near Tampa Bay. And understanding that, yes, there is the question of if we get a business, then where would they live? But even more so if we get apartments, where will they work? If we're trying to get this cycle going as a town, as a community where we have young professionals moving in and staying here in town. People are willing to commute. We're very close to Scottsdale. We're very close to Mesa. There are apartment options and there's some here in town. I've been looking at them. Some are already aware I've been touring some homes and hoping to find somewhere within the community to live with a friend of mine. But without getting too long on this rant, I felt as though I owed everyone an explanation for why I'm voting the way that I am, and it's out of concern for this town and out of the long-term vision of what this community needs to be, which is welcoming to young professionals and able to provide the opportunity that gives them a reason to stay. At the moment, if we don't have jobs that pay so that people can afford the rent, which is more expensive, then we can't guarantee a thriving community until that problem is solved. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Thank you. So is that it? All right. Well, we have a motion and a second on the table. Could we get a roll call, please? GRZYBOWSKI: Just to clarify, the motion is approved as written. Correct? Thank you. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? Page 93 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES FRIEDEL: No. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: Permission to explain my vote? So a couple hours ago, I asked the attorney if this was a quasi-judicial hearing or if it was legislative, and really didn't get an answer on that. So I did look it up, you know, and I see here quasi-judicial has to do with site specific zoning. This is something that is definitely site specific. It doesn't comply to the zoning. And there's a specific application for zoning. So it sounds like it is quasi-judicial. I see here the definition of that as the council members have to act as judges rather than legislators. So some of the questions I had had very much merit. And I'm not making any accusations. I'm just asking serious questions that would have to matter in a quasi-judicial setting. A couple of people like to throw accusations back at me. That's fine, but that's not how I play. I'm just asking serious questions. I wanted more transparency. I think this process is flawed. I think this has moved way too fast. I'm concerned that planning and zoning voted this down, and yet here we are trying to push it through. So that's my thoughts on that. And I'm a no. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: I would be a yes. MENDENHALL: Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: Yes. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Toth? TOTH: No. MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Yes. MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey? MAYOR DICKEY: Aye. MENDENHALL: It passes. Four to three. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you very much. Please. Yes. Do you want a break? Oh. Thank you. This next item is related. Do you do you want a break? I'd rather keep going. If you -- Page 94 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES GOODWIN: Mayor, as you know, this item is related. ARNSON: Rachael, maybe just give it a minute while people vacate. Yeah, just a suggestion. [Pause] MAYOR DICKEY: We would like to get going if we can, please. We have three more items. ARNSON: The mayor says we're rolling. [CLERKS NOTE] Councilmember Hannah Toth left the dais at 10:05 p.m. and returned at 10:08 p.m. GOODWIN: Yep. All right. Thanks, everybody. Mayor, our next item, as you know, is kind of a -- is regarding the same space, but it is a separate item. Our senior planner, Farhad, is going to be presenting that item for us tonight. TAVASSOLI: All right. So good evening, Madam Mayor, Councilmembers. So as John said in the very beginning of his presentation, there are two separate distinct P.A.D. requests associated with the Four Peaks Plaza. First one, quite obviously, was in regards to the proposed apartments. This one is in regards to, well, I should say the scope includes the Target owned parcel as well as the parcel -- MAYOR DICKEY: Could we have order, please? Guys, we're trying to get work done here. It's late. TAVASSOLI: I just want to make sure when the time is right. So the scope, as I was saying, includes the Target owned parcel. And actually you don't see the parcel boundaries here, but the Target owned parcel is generally right here. And immediately to the east is another property owned by Sandor and the spaces are tenant occupied. So this is, as I mentioned, a separate P.A.D. request entitled Four Peaks Plaza. What the applicant is proposing to do is to rezone from the existing C-2 C.U.P.D. zoning designation, as well as the 1-1, which only covers the 75 foot wide drainage channel, just like as in the previous case to establish it as a P.A.D. Now, I'm going to go straight to the last bullet. The current standards for the C-2 C.U.P.D. shall apply. The primary purpose Page 95 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES for this P.A.D. is to — for the developer to create its own allocation for signs, particularly as they relate to monument signs. And in that regard, the applicant is proposing to replace the existing 12 foot high sign, which is also 14 feet wide with a 20 foot high sign and a little over 21 and a half feet wide. That being the existing sign again at the southeast corner of Shea Boulevard and Center Lane, which is the signalized intersection indicated here by marker A. And also to add a new 12 foot high sign and a 14 foot wide monument sign at the driveway midway between Shea and Saguaro, indicated by marker B. This is about 530 feet or so east of the Shea and Center Lane intersection. And as I mentioned, all other C-2 C.U.P.D. standards that have been effective when this rezone request came before the council at the time, back in the late '90s shall remain in place. So again this is to replace number one, the 12 foot high sign with a 20 foot high sign. The applicant has included a rendering right here to better illustrate the height and the number of tenant signs that will be also on this sign. And keep in mind, the tenant signs -- the colors will be muted as the rendering here indicates. And again on the left is the existing 12 foot high sign. Signed B will be an additional sign. It would be a new 12 foot high sign, much like the existing sign at the signalized intersection. It would also be 14 feet wide. At the driveway between Shea and Saguaro. So how does this deviate from the existing sign code in the zoning ordinance? Well, with regards to sign A, the sign height is limited to 12 feet. The applicant is proposing a 20 foot high sign, as I mentioned earlier. Also, the base zoning ordinance standards when it comes to sign area is limited to 50 square feet for a monument sign. The applicant is proposing 210 square feet. And this, again, is in regards to the removal and the replacement of the existing sign at Center and Shea Boulevard. With regards to sign B; now, I should mention that a monument sign would be allowed at this proposed driveway midway between Shea Boulevard and Saguaro -- I beg your pardon; Center Lane and Saguaro, because of the distance separation from the existing sign. But here the applicant is proposing 80 square feet of sign area, which is a little Page 96 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES over 30 -- which is actually 30 square feet above what the base zoning standards allow. So now a motion to approve at the planning and zoning commission meeting was denied. However, staff is still supportive of a -- or I should say, approval of this P.A.D. request with the sign allocations that the applicant is proposing. We believe the approval would address some challenges due to the limited visibility from Shea Boulevard. And much like the previous P.A.D., it provides uniform zoning throughout Four Peaks Plaza. There are some stipulations for approval included in your staff report. All four of them are listed here. During the building permit review, we will also require an encroachment permit to be reviewed by our public works department. And also a stipulation here to ensure that the final design does not conflict with the existing sewer line. With that, I'II conclude my presentation. Jason also has some exhibits to share with you as well. MAYOR DICKEY: Should the applicant -- FRIEDEL: I have a couple of questions for Farhad. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. FRIEDEL: Farhad, will that sign be illuminated? TAVASSOLI: It will, Mayor and Councilmember Friedel, it will be illuminated from the inside. FRIEDEL: From the inside. And do you know what hours of illumination? I'm concerned with a 20-foot sign, any neighboring properties and people looking down on it -- will it be 24 hours lit? . TAVASSOLI: Mayor, Councilmember, I'm not sure if there's any regulations in place that would limit illumination for the sign. I could check that for you, while the applicant is presenting. MAYOR DICKEY: You want me to open the hearing? I was going to let applicant speak. I'm going to open the hearing so we can -- sorry. Open the hearing so we can hear from the applicant like we did before. So that way maybe your questions get answered while we listen. And then we'll close the hearing and -- or we'll hear from people and then Page 97 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES we'll close the hearing. MORRIS: Mayor, council, thank you. We're almost halfway through the evening. So -- thank you, Mayor and council. I will be brief. Farhad has done a very good job sort of setting the groundwork. And I have an anticipation of what your questions may be. So hopefully some of these slides will answer those questions. You're aware of the size of the shopping center. We've obviously had that conversation even after the action that the council just took. It is one of the largest, if not the largest shopping center in town. So the town code doesn't necessarily speak -- the town code and the signage code speaks to every sign within the town for every commercial parcel, regardless of size. So where we're asking for flexibility really is a matter of the size of the shopping center and also the unique constraints of this particular shopping center from a topography standpoint. So as we look at what we're doing, this is also a cleanup of some of the parcel. You'll see in the parcel map, the portion that we are changing to a P.A.D. is being changed from the P.U.D., which is an older district. The P.A.D. is a more modern contemporary district, and it cleans up the zoning and zoning lines on this piece and continues it as one zoning district. This is really the issue at hand. This is our "Where's Waldo" sign. There is a sign there as you're driving, but you can't see it. And for a retailer that is and can be the death knell, it's one of the things that they rely upon. While residents who have lived here for 40 years will know this is where Target is, not everyone who's traversing Shea has had that experience. And oftentimes, if you think about some of the goods and services within a Target, you are relying upon that signage. So not having visibility at all, even if you could see the Target, the smaller tenants are really who suffer in that instance. So for businesses, signage is key. The sign itself that exists today that the 12-foot sign is -- oh, excuse me, away from -- it escaped. Thanks. Away from the intersection itself. So even as you're traveling, because of the topography and how inset it is, because of the easement that's there, you don't have sign visibility until you're almost on top of that intersection, which, again, is less than desirable. Farhad pointed out where those signs are. The only thing I Page 98 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES will mention, and it's probably evident from the exhibit, is although we are asking for a 20-foot sign and there's an existing 12-foot sign, so we're asking for 8 additional feet. Five feet is the base. This is an upgraded sign package. It is actually a much better looking sign, a more contemporary look with the shopping center. And this is part and parcel of what we're trying to do to the entire shopping center. It's creating the residential, it's upgrading the remaining commercial to match the new residential and new signage. So these are things that are key to bringing the shopping center as a whole into this decade. So the first 5 feet, although it's a 20-foot sign, is the base, which is a stacked stone base. Again when we talk about existing signage versus proposed, part of that justification for the sign is the distance, and this gives you an idea. Once that sign is built, obviously it is more visible but not garish, not outwardly signed or outlandish for the site that we've selected. Just to give you an idea of some other Target signage around the Valley, Fountain Hills is unique. You certainly don't need a pylon. You certainly don't need the size of all of these. And in fact, what we're requesting is smaller. Lighting, Mayor and council that the question has already been asked by Councilman Friedel. This is halo illuminated. So although it's internally lit, it's lit just so it backlights. It's not a cabinet lighting, which I think is what you may be concerned with. And in fact, at development, if we're fortunate enough to have this approved, it should emit the same or fewer lumens, which is how you measure Tight. This actually is probably a better exhibit for that. It shows that these are not cabinet lit, they're halo illuminated. And in terms of light spillage, you get a sense where between four street lights at that location and the traffic light signal itself. So it's not creating additional light spillage. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: I'm going to ask if there are any speaker cards first before we discuss. MENDENHALL: Okay. Thank you, Mayor. Yes. In your packet, you have some comments on this item, and there was 13 in favor of it and 5 opposed. We had two people come in and give their written comments. One opposed and one was in favor. So a total of 14 in favor and 6 opposed. We do have speaker cards. It shows I have Page 99 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES nine, but some of the people may not be here. So we're going to start with Kathi Marx. Are you still here? Okay. Cathi Marx is first and then Pamela Curtis. Okay. You're on deck. MARX: Don't give up easy. All right. Thank you so much for being here and everything. So thank you. The purpose of the new signage on the proposal says, and I quote, "In addition to efforts to bring more activity to the property and in order to increase visibility of the shopping center, assist in wayfinding in the visibility of the remaining tenants within the shopping center, we have to have these larger signs." Yes, people who live here know Target's there, but people who are visitors, it's called a GPS. I don't really think we need a 20-foot sign. My guess is that people who don't see this as a big deal don't live along Monterey, Trevino, and parts of Nicholas, I do. I currently see the casino sign all night long. The lights of the Shell station, car wash, Comfort Inn, Denny's, Target building sign all the way through the CVS pharmacy signage. The way Shea kind of turns and the way my house is -- what will happen is I can see the intersection of Shea and Center Lane. So when that 20-foot sign is put up, I will have the full facing 20-foot Target sign backlit facing my back deck. Don't forget phase 2 of the hospital was approved and with it will come additional signage on the corner of Shea and Saguaro, with an existing light source from McDonald's, Senior Taco, and Bank of America. In all actuality, it already looks like a mini Las Vegas strip. It feels like sometimes all we need is an Eiffel Tower and a volcano. It's lit until midnight. According to what I can see in the proposal, it's supposed to be off from midnight to six. I do welcome before you make this decision on this 20-foot sign, which seems absolutely ridiculous to me, I welcome anyone on the town council to visit my home at night to see outside, possibly other people that live on Monterey, and Trevino would do the same so that you can actually see that. Maybe upgrade the existing signage at 12 feet, but 20 feet? It just seems absolutely ridiculous for this dark sky city in such a small town. It makes no sense whatsoever. So thank you very much and I appreciate you staying so late. CURTIS: So this developer has already come in and put up an overly bright Dollar Tree sign, which is on all night, even though the store isn't even located where the signage is Page 100 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES and it is not halo illuminated. They're also wanting to double the size of the existing signage along Shea, stating obstruction and that it cannot be seen. There is one tree -- I drive by there every day to and from work. There is one tree. It is large, it is spread out. It could be trimmed or taken out and the problem will be resolved. Should the change in signage be approved, what's to keep the rest of Fountain Hills businesses from demanding the same? The signage should adhere to that that was agreed upon and approved. And once again, I please ask that you just say no. Also, I want to quickly address that Sandor rep stated extra cars can park in the Target lot. However, there are signs there that state no overnight parking and it appears that the comments that have been spoken and written only represent less than two percent of the town's census. You need to hear from more of the residents before you let all of this happen. And backing up on what she was saying about the illumination, I don't even have to turn the light on to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night. Thank you. MENDENHALL: Next we have Betsy LaVoie and then on deck Lori Scherer. Are you still here, Lori? She's gone. Okay. Then on deck is Larry Meyers. LAVOIE: Good evening. I live near this area as well, and when I purchased my home, I knew I was purchasing near commercial. Therefore, I don't complain about living near commercial. The letter of support from the Fountain Hills Chamber of Commerce board of directors also advocates for and approves the zoning change essential for a comprehensive revitalization. The rezoning specifically pertains to the signage for the rest of the development plaza as the current zoning is not current. The approval of suitable signage is crucial element that commands attention. Guaranteeing the visibility and acknowledgment of the plaza is pivotal for its prosperity. I urge you to consider this factor for the overall success of the project. Thank you. MEYERS: Is it tomorrow? Anyway. Full disclosure. I purchased my house and actually built it when the property wasn't commercial. So I live with what became and it's okay. I don't think we need a 20-foot high sign. I did particularly tell these guys at planning and zoning that I liked their new sign design better than the existing sign design. The Page 101 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES back lit, it's more modern, looks better, less lumens. I probably won't see it as much from my house, but I see every speck of light down in that valley from my back windows, my entire back of my house. I see everything. I see the video board from the casino, which we can't do anything about. It actually presents an image on my bedroom wall at night because we don't have window coverings, so the dark sky seems to not be too dark depending on where you live. And so we've cut the size of the commercial down there. Down by what, a third? Because now we're going to have apartments. But we're increasing the signage by fourfold. So according to Farhad -- and Farhad's illustrations don't look like Jason's illustrations. So I'm hoping that his sign design is what we're going by. Because if I have a big red bull's eye, that's 20 feet in the air, I'm going to be really pissed. And I'm pissed off enough already because like I said, I built my house when it wasn't commercial. And so you know, usually I don't speak from my own specific viewpoint of what I see and what I like and what should be for me. But I am certain that there are probably 30/40 houses that are going to be impacted by the 20-foot high sign, and I'm sure they would all say the same thing. So while I want to, if we're going to have this project be partially commercial, I would like to see it succeed. I have my doubts. But I don't think four times the sign ordinance that we have is appropriate. And I would make one more comment on our sign ordinance. We had it. We didn't have it. We had it again. And in the meantime, what happened at the bottom of the hill that I'm talking about is now an electronic messaging board coming for the medical center right next to a giant monument sign. So we make ordinances and then we go like this. And I think that this is one where it actually is not in accordance with what we've felt for the town. Thank you. MENDENHALL: I think Joanne Lyles left. Okay. So then the last speaker is Ed Stizza. STIZZA: Long night. Mayor, council, Aaron, staff, Rachael, and Linda. So again. Let's try this again. So you're going to let them break the sign ordinance? Why? Do we really need this? No. I've been all over Chandler and Gilbert and everything else over the past couple of weeks on job sites. That's a whole different community. Okay. So let's take a strong look at what we're doing here. Right? That area is becoming lit. We have no Page 102 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES dark skies over there anymore. So are we going to continue to keep busting this up like that? It doesn't make any sense, you guys. So let them build the sign. Rebuild it. Yeah, the design's better. Of course it is. It's newer and it's going to look better and certainly with the illumination. But at the same token, 20 by 20 feet? Are you kidding me? Come on, come on. So at some point in time, you've got to listen to the residents. And regardless of this project, you know, going forward, I just -- everybody wants it to be successful, you know? But at the same token, we are giving up something here, and we are giving up what Fountain Hills was originally founded on. So you're giving up a part of it. And this you will also give up on. So I just don't think that it's that critical, that it's going to make that much difference. If you tell me it's going to make a 20 percent difference in sales and you're going to actually stand behind that, then maybe we can listen to something. But this part of it shouldn't be approved. And before I forget, it seems to go without any sort of conversation since we're talking about the P.A.D. and changing the zoning on this, what's going on with the building that has been sitting there empty in the front? Does anybody got a plan for that? Does anybody -- what are we doing with it? So the sign will cover that building up for a little bit. So that's cool, right? So a 20 by 20 foot sign. So what are we doing with that building? There wasn't even asked or talked about. So I'm just a little bit skeptical on all of it. And I wish everybody the best of luck. But you are changing Fountain Hills and I'm not so sure it's going to be for the better. So just take that into consideration, please. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. So I think we have some questions. I'm going to close the hearing. And -- Councilwoman? MCMAHON: Thank you. Mayor. I'm having a -- I'll be honest with you. I'm really having a difficult time with this request. Especially given my position on signs in town. And you're also asking for two signs. I have a question. I don't know if it's going to be you or John or Farhad that's going to answer it, but stacked stone base, not to ask a stupid question, and a monument sign. Is that part of the sign -- part and parcel or is it not computed in this part of the lit up sign? Do you understand my question? Okay. TAVASSOLI: Mayor and Councilmember McMahon, the base is not computed as part of Page 103 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES the sign area. MCMAHON: So the sign area is in addition to the base? TAVASSOLI: Correct. MCMAHON: Okay. So it's going to be actually bigger than what they're requesting for the sign? TAVASSOLI: Correct. MCMAHON: It's not totality? MAYOR DICKEY: It's 20 feet, no? MCMAHON: Okay. Is the stone taking away the stone base. Is 20 feet the size of the sign, or is it the whole thing with the stone base? TAVASSOLI: 20 feet includes the stone base. MCMAHON: Okay. Thank you. All right. Thank you. The Sandor development person, I'm for moving it forward because I can understand where it's situated and it's hard to see, et cetera. But I'm concerned with all the residents' concerns here. In addition, I'm concerned with making a sign exception because down the street in the older shopping center where Wendy's is, et cetera, they have built in monument signs. I think that's what they're called, I'm not sure, and they're a lot smaller than this. My concern is that if we grant this, we're going to have to grant it for all other businesses because I would think that they would ask for it. But I understand why you're asking, and I understand, you have a big apartment building, now you have a smaller commercial center, et cetera. But I'm just not in favor of the 20-foot sign. I mean, I'm okay with two signs within the limitations but not with the large one and then a small one on top of it. Okay. I just wanted you to understand that. MORRIS: Thank you. Mayor, Councilmember McMahon, there are a few significant differences between some of the other sites that we're talking about, the one that you cited and others, in that we have the obligation. And if we're going to characterize this application, this is a small business application because the small businesses, the smaller tenants, the ones we're trying to lure back into this site are the ones that are relying upon this sign. Target less so but certainly they benefit from this. But it's the small Page 104 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES tenants and the small businesses that are set so far back from the roadway. And also now behind that 75-foot easement, as well as the foliage, that their stores -- to the member of the public who commented, just Google or MapQuest, whatever you're using to find these stores, you may find Target and they may show up on a map, on a digital map, but it's the smaller tenants who need that space. The 20 feet in height is significantly smaller than you would see in a major center of this size in another jurisdiction. But we also understand Fountain Hills isn't every jurisdiction. You do things on a more delicate basis, which is why we only asked for 20. 20 feet was actually smaller than we would typically have on a shopping center even after the rezoning. So as we looked at the options, one of the things that we did was lower the light source, because much of what we heard here today is, this is about light. I don't want to see any more light. You've seen the illustration. You will not see more light as a result of this. It's actually a better looking sign overall. And we mentioned that 20 feet of height we're at 12ft now. We mentioned the additional eight feet. We're talking about a significantly taller base too which is why you're at 20 feet. But signage in general, this essentially now 15-foot tall sign is also a function of speed. It's not just a function of the size of the shopping center, but the speed of the cars on any given roadway, because you have to accommodate that when you're creating signage. So right now, as you pointed out, it's a situation that doesn't work. It's almost a useless sign. You catch the Target portion. So moving it out does help, but the size actually allows us to advertise the smaller tenants, which frankly, are the tougher tenants to get because they need more of that signage. I understand your concerns, I really do, and I hope you're taking into account that we're trying to lower the lighting in order to make this a justification for the sign itself. MCMAHON: Thank you very much for addressing my questions and concerns. But don't you think that having two signs is going to help this shopping center and the smaller businesses in there be more noticed and more attractive without having a huge 20 -- to me, it's a huge -- 20-foot sign like that or -- MORRIS: Mayor and Councilmember, it is a tremendous help. But we're also focused Page 105 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES on the directional traffic. So if we're looking at eastbound versus westbound on Shea, only one sign is going to help us, depending upon the direction you're going in. So it does help if you're coming westbound to have that second sign. But having that primary signage for eastbound traffic becomes essential. MCMAHON: Okay. Thank you. But are you going to redo the signs no matter? Is that part of the development -- are you going to make new signs regardless of what size we approve here tonight, or are you only going to change the sign to be larger if we okay it to be larger? Does that make sense? MORRIS: Well, let me put it this way, Mayor, Councilmember. We won't make it larger unless we're allowed to. So I assume what you're saying is, are we going to rebuild the signs regardless? It doesn't make sense to rebuild the signs in their existing location, so that wouldn't happen unless this application was approved, we're able to move the signs themselves, and expand the size. We're certainly willing to work with the town to make sure it's what you want to see. But these tenants are so far buried, these smaller tenants, there is no way you will know that there is a hobby store or a craft store or a new restaurant, unless we can have a sign that above its base is 15 feet tall. MCMAHON: So if the larger size isn't approved, you're not going to move that the existing sign closer? But you're -- so that won't change? You're going to keep it there regardless, even if we say you can move it closer? And so I mean, I guess if you want more visibility, I'm wondering why you wouldn't do that, especially if you're adding another sign and you're dealing with signage anyway. MORRIS: And I think I better understand your question, which is if we're just given the -- I think the question is, if you're just given the ability to move the sign closer to the right of way and you're given the ability to do the second sign at the size requested, will you, will you develop that? I think we're going to be challenged. Obviously, any signage to your point, better signage is better signage. So we do appreciate that. The signage size for the smaller tenants is also a function of what Target will allow us to do and what we've agreed to do with Target. Target started out at a taller sign in keeping with their other signs. We, before we filed, negotiated a smaller sign with Target because we had Page 106 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES spoken with staff and we thought that this was a sign that was more in keeping with what would be approved. We are now obligated in some degree to create this signage, and we want to do that in keeping with what the town wants to see. So we're certainly willing to work with you to create something that works. But I can't emphasize enough, it's absolutely essential to these small businesses. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilman? FRIEDEL: Can I ask you a question? That base is going to be five feet tall? MORRIS: Yes. FRIEDEL: Why don't you cut the base down to three feet, give these residents a little something, and then you can probably get your sign. And also, you mentioned the speed. There's several stoplights along that road, so the speed is going to be controlled for you guys, I get that. And also, I don't know if John is -- that vegetation, is that on their property or is that on our right-of-way? Can that be thinned out to help your situation? MORRIS: Mayor, Councilman, thank you for the suggestion on the speeds, we do understand that. Our experience has been because of the higher volume of traffic, even with the stoplights, that does make a difference. If you can time your stoplights to keep them there 10, 15 minutes, they'll get a better look at the shopping center. So we can talk about that. But in lieu of that, the trees aren't on our property. They're not on land controlled by us. And I do understand your comment, and I will take it back to my client and see if there's some unity there. FRIEDEL: I think if you could lower that a couple of feet, we might have the residents on board with this and we wouldn't have an issue. You're looking at 20ft, if we lowered it to 17 or 18 feet, I think it might be something that we could probably get some people to buy into and might make it a little easier to get that done for you. MORRIS: Understood. Thank you, Councilman. SKILLICORN: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Actually, I have a question for Director Wesley. I can start talking while you walk. Come up. One of the comments was about like midnight to 6 a.m. The lights are supposed to be off on the signs. Page 107 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES WESLEY: Yes. SKILLICORN: And was mentioned the Dollar Tree. I don't know if that's included in the ordinance or not. WESLEY: Get back to that. And I know I just read it in terms of the monument sign but let me see if it applies to all of them. The monument signs have that 12 to 6 limitation. I'm not seeing it for the wall mount signs. SKILLICORN: Okay. WESLEY: Just the monument signs. SKILLICORN: And maybe we'll look at that and see if it's there or not. Those comments about the signs, their comments about the light down there are very concerning to me. I almost wonder, though, if it's dimmer, we're going to see more of the casino sign, which is a little bit annoying. And I've actually always thought of monument signs as good economic development. But I am very concerned about the comments we had. I mean, the residents had real comments about the light and such. So that's concerning. I'm also concerned, according to notes that I've read, only three planning and zoning members supported this, so that's giving me trouble. But I kind of like monument signs, especially if they're not high resolution, LED with motion Las Vegas style. So it's kind of a tough situation. I don't know if planning and zoning could comment on this and explain why there was three and other concerns, that would be helpful. But this is a tough one for me because I like monument signs. I've always thought about putting another one in that location. I also believe that they can put an additional sign by right, at the second location. I think the B location. Is that correct? They can put one there by right? WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember Skillicorn, in this case, no, because the approved P.U.D. prohibits that. And so that's why they're here requesting the change. SKILLICORN: Okay. Thank you very much. WESLEY: Excuse me. If you don't mind me, I'd like to add to that response just a little bit. So this is a case -- again, so the existing sign ordinance, like we talked about before, sets certain parameters. But the reason we have a P.A.D. ordinance is to allow site Page 108 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES specific adaptations of the zoning ordinance so that we can address specific locations and needs. So this is, again, a great reason why we use a P.A.D. to allow looking at what the needs are of a specific location. MAYOR DICKEY: I would also -- I don't want to put words or thoughts into them, but the idea if you want a sign like this, it would sort of quell the idea that if it looks like another big investment in keeping it commercial. So you know, some of the folks that were worried that everything was going to get raised or whatever. It shows that you want to -- I mean, that sign can't be nothing. I'm sure it costs quite a bit. And again, all of this represents investment of somebody that wants to be in Fountain Hills. So I understand, you know, I'm not the sign lover, but I've said to folks who -- that I don't like so many signs, that I've said in the past, monument signs are good and they're a good alternative. So it seems like a good option in a commercial area that large to me. Anybody else? let's see -- MCMAHON: I do. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Councilwoman? MCMAHON: John, could you elaborate a little bit more on what you just said about looking at the size of the P.A.D. or the shopping center and then being able to, for lack of a better word, adjust the sign to that size, even though we have a sign ordinance that says differently. Or is that a contradiction? Could you please explain that a little bit more for clarity purposes? Thank you. WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember, between here and there, when I came back to add that response, I kind of forgot even half of what I was going to say then. So as I'm trying to think through all this -- so the current sign ordinance, as opposed to when this was developed, does now allow -- would allow the two monument signs by right; smaller size but would allow it. And so they're actually amending the P.U.D. that restricts them to something the code now allows to letting them do what the code allows by having two monument signs for this property. But again, just back again to the basic purpose of a P.A.D., it's not trying to go around the zoning ordinance. It is what the zoning ordinance establishes as the way to look at specific property in its specific needs, and Page 109 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES applying appropriate regulations so that it can be properly developed and used. In this case, as that applies to the signs, it may be allowing for larger signs, more signs, taller signs than what the ordinance typically would allow. MCMAHON: So I understand that they're allowed to have two monument signs. Okay. But the size of one of them is at issue right now. So I guess what I'm asking you, does that development P.A.D. plan allow for the larger size, even though the sign ordinance -- WESLEY: Yes. MCMAHON: -- has a specific set amount? WESLEY: Yes. Mayor, Councilmember, yes. Again, as part of the zoning ordinance, any provision in the zoning ordinance except uses, I guess even uses can be, I'm thinking of a variance. Anything in the zoning ordinance can be adjusted because a P.A.D. establishes basically its own mini -zoning ordinance for that property. MCMAHON: Okay. Thank you. ARNSON: I was -- I'm sorry. Brenda, do you want to -- Councilwoman, do you want to go first? KALIVIANAKIS: It's really up to you, Aaron. ARNSON: I might be able to add a point on something that that the developer's counsel said that might short circuit the discussion and maybe get us where we need to go. Is it correct; it sounds like part of fulfilling their obligations to Target, in whatever arrangement they've reached, are contingent upon approval of this request. Am I understanding that correctly? MORRIS: Mayor, council, yes. ARNSON: Yeah. So that's what that's what I ultimately wanted to get to. Is that -- not to put too fine a point on it, in order for them to fulfill their contractual obligations to Target, an affirmative vote is needed and requested. That's what I'm trying to get at here. MORRIS: And Mayor and council, thank you for bringing that. And what I should -- I want to put an even finer point on that, because it is part of this redevelopment plan, and it's part of why we were having Target -- I think we were having this conversation Page 110 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES very early on in the process about we have to make this more viable. And that was part of Target's rationale of being more viable, was being more visible. That being said, Mayor, Councilman Friedel had a suggestion, our obligation is signage, square footage of the signage. The base isn't signage, and we can lower that two feet, which would bring it down to 18 feet for the signage, which obviously is not something that we're anxious to do, but we understand the councilman's point. It shows some flexibility and still allows the signage. Now what I will -- and I want to reiterate this, our sign panel today because, Councilwoman, you raised that sign panel. It permits three other tenants on it. And those are some of the larger tenants because obviously they have the ability in our negotiations to demand those sign panels. But if you're a smaller tenant, you don't have signage on our existing sign today, which is why the new sign design, which if I heard correctly, is endorsed by Mr. Meyers. It allows those smaller panels and those smaller tenants. Which is why I opened this presentation with this is really about a small business argument. It does allow Target, but those small business panels are essential. KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. Thank you, Ms. Mayor. Yeah. The first thing is to the residents that live in that area my heart goes out. And this is such a difficult decision because if you live there and like Mr. Meyers said, it's a disturbance to his home and there are other residents. And so I really understand that and I take that to heart when I lay in bed at night. That's the kind of things we got to do right by our citizens. On the other hand the point that our town attorney brought up is really an integral part of this package. It is a package deal. If vote one down, vote them both down. It's really -- that's what we're talking about here. As I made my decision, my difficult decision to vote yes, a big part of that was my pledge when I ran to support revitalization and smart growth. This project fits the criteria on which I ran. Unfortunately, we don't do this, that might lead to that area of town not revitalized, not growing and becoming -- I don't know if people know this, but a lot of the empty buildings in there are being stripped of copper because of the homelessness and the vagrancy down there. It's a terrible thing. You can read police reports if you don't believe me. Last week, I believe they had several incidents of breaking into buildings because there's nothing down there. It's Page 111 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES turning into a ghost town. And so we really need to think about this. And I guess the question I would have for you is in the process by which they go by to say, we need a larger sign. I know some of the people here said, I don't think you need it. Is the process, they just flipped a coin and said, oh, that would be nice. Or is there a process by which experts and people that are much smarter than us, marketing experts, say in order for this project to succeed, we need the larger signage. We need to promote the smaller businesses. If we're going to do what we said we're going to do, which is to fill that vacant complex with viable businesses, create a vibrant vibe in that town. I'm sure they don't just wing it. I'm sure there's experts that have looked at this and said, no, if we don't have this, we're going to hurt our whole operation. Could you explain that process? MORRIS: Mayor, Councilmember, I can. And I can tell you, first of all, the building design and the site plan layout you saw was designed by an architect and a site planner that works specifically on those two aspects of the building. Our sign package is from a sign expert, they only do signage. And it is more than the flip of a coin. These are sign package specialists that are approved by Target and other national retailers, because they trust the quality and the consistency of the signage. What I want to point out is the first question that is asked by a tenant who is interested in any of the spaces that are available, is what is my signage look like? And as it stands now, even though the code, as we just heard, your current ordinance would allow us a second sign, we don't have one, and on our existing sign we don't have room for the smaller tenants. So we worked backwards from the number -- the square footage and how that is demised, the size of the shopping center, and the frontage space and came up with the sign package that would be necessary to accommodate in terms of square footage, those tenants with a new sign. Our number actually brought us to a 24-foot height. We then worked with staff who suggested a smaller size, which meant limiting the panels. But at 20 feet we were -- and that's with the base, we were still able to accommodate the majority, but not all. Not every tenant would get their own sign, but more tenants would have that signage ability. And with the second sign, we can almost guarantee that there will be Page 112 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES some visibility for every tenant. So it is more than just guessing at what works. And we've actually squeezed ourselves. The only place left is the comment that was made earlier. We could possibly lower the base, but not change the signage itself. KALIVIANAKIS: Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Vice Mayor? GRZYBOWSKI: I think you made a really good point, that the larger sign gives an advantage of allowing placards for more commercial space. Obviously, adding the second sign adds more commercial space. That strip mall, you don't see it when you're driving. Sure, I can Google it before I leave the house and I see what is there. But you don't see it when you're there. And that was actually one of the things when we first moved into Arizona as a whole, was the color coding of many of the signs and some of the areas and how far down some of the strip malls were, how difficult it was to find places. I'm used to great big signs that tell you that Target is here or whoever. So I think you made a really good point by the larger sign and the second sign allowing some of those commercial spaces to have a placard, which is very important as a business owner to be able to get your name up on the -- up in lights, so to speak, on the signage. I was a little iffy on it, but I'm going to say I support this. And if council wants to ask them to cut the base down a couple of feet, I'll support that as well. But I do support the signage size as it is, because I think that is very important to the smaller businesses to be able to be accommodated in there to help it be visible. Thank you. MORRIS: And Mayor, Vice Mayor, to emphasize your point, I didn't leave my house today thinking I needed a Euro, but I saw signage as I was driving in Fountain Hills, and there's a Greek restaurant across the street from the shopping center, and I found myself eating there. So those signs do have that impact on your small businesses. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. I don't see any other -- MORRIS: Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: -- signals. So anybody want to venture? Motion's on our new screen here. I can't see the page number. KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah, I'd like to make a motion to approve. Page 113 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES MCMAHON: With any adjustments? MAYOR DICKEY: She doesn't have to. Someone can amend it if they want. KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. I'd kind of like to go with the 20 feet because -- FRIEDEL: We're not reducing the sign, just the base. MAYOR DICKEY: Well, just make a motion. If you want to make a motion as is, someone can amend it. KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. I'd like to just make a motion to approve as is. MAYOR DICKEY: Is there a second? GRZYBOWSKI: Second. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. SKILLICORN: I'd like to make a motion to amend it to 18 feet tall with the shorter base, as Councilmember Friedel suggested. MAYOR DICKEY: Is there a second? I bet. So we vote on the amendment. A roll call, please on 18 feet. MENDENHALL: All right. Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: No. MENDENHALL: Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: This is really a hard decision. But given everything that I've heard and we're going to reduce the base size, then I'm going to say aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Toth? TOTH: Just for the sake of consistency, I vote no. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? FRIEDEL: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: Permission to explain a vote. I think 18 is better than 20. Yes. MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Aye. MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey. MAYOR DICKEY: Aye. Thank you. Page 114 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES MENDENHALL: So 18 feet passes. MAYOR DICKEY: Yeah. Brenda had to go first. Sorry. But we understand what you're doing. Aaron? ARNSON: Yes. So now we vote on the main motion -- MAYOR DICKEY: As amended. MAYOR DICKEY: And we don't need to make any more motions because we have that. Okay. So we'll take a roll call of that. MENDENHALL: Okay. Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: Permission to explain vote? I see someone walking out that was against it. I do apologize, I agree with your arguments, but I think signs are necessary. I'm sorry. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Not -- guess what? Come to my house when this -- SKILLICORN: I will. I will do that. I will go check it out. And if I'm wrong, we will do a motion to reconsider. But yes. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: No. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Toth? TOTH: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? FRIEDEL: Aye. MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Aye. MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey? MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. So decision time. These next two items are they, are they timely? They're timely aren't they? GOODWIN: Yes, they are. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. GOODWIN: Mayor, they are timely. But I believe we can move through them pretty Page 115 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES rapidly. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. GOODWIN: There's nothing new to really consider here. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. WESLEY: Maybe I'll even do without my presentation because it doesn't want to seem to come up. You have the information. There it goes. And this is very brief. You have the information in your packet. This request for an extension of a special use permit for residential on Fountain Hills Boulevard and Glenbrook. Council approved this back in June for the ten units in three buildings. The ordinance requires that they apply for their building permit within six months, and then another six months to get the building permit approved. They have submitted a site plan. It was submitted -- which is first step prior to getting the building permit. It was submitted in October. We provided comments to the applicant back in November. In the report when I wrote the report, they had not yet resubmitted, but they did resubmit now the revised site plan, there's a copy there of what was recently submitted. Haven't had a chance to study it yet because it just came in. But at a quick look it appears they have addressed what the staff comments were previously, and I expect this site plan can be approved fairly quickly and they'll be able to move on then to the building permits fairly soon. MCMAHON: I have a question. Is this the ones across from McDonald's? No. WESLEY: No, this is the one up at Glenbrook and Fountain Hills Boulevard. MCMAHON: Okay. Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, go ahead, Councilwoman Toth. [CLERKS NOTE] Mayor Ginny Dickey left the dais at 11:04 p.m. and returned at 11:06 p.m. TOTH: Thank you, Vice Mayor, I apologize. I did not realize the Mayor had left, so I was very thrown off by that. But I just like to make a motion to approve a six-month continuance of the SUP. KALIVIANAKIS: I'd like to second. GRZYBOWSKI: We can still make comments. I assume the mayor would say yes. Page 116 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES FRIEDEL: John, how many times have we extended this? WESLEY: This will be the first one on this one. FRIEDEL: First one. Okay. And how many times are we allowed to? WESLEY: There's no specific limit in the code. FRIEDEL: There's no limit? Okay. Just wondering. Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: Councilman Skillicorn. SKILLICORN: Thank you very much, Vice Mayor. Director Wesley refresh my memory, when did this get approved? Was it like last spring? WESLEY: It was on June 6th council meeting. SKILLICORN: The exact date. I love it. Thank you. GRZYBOWSKI: Are there any other comments before the mayor makes it back in case she has something she wants to say? No? ARNSON: Call for a vote, Vice Mayor. Oh, Mayor is back. Okay. MCMAHON: I think one of the issues I had was, do they have a community living space on this? Is the driveway access, okay? I mean, has any of that been changed, or is am I confusing it with a different development? WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember, I think you are remembering the discussion when we came through with this request back in June. And so one of the problems or concerns at the time was this driveway and some issues with its width and how it worked, they resolved those issues, it appears. Again, I haven't studied it in detail, but it looks like they have. Another thing that we did bring up was that there really wasn't much of any communal space in this one. It's a small site, so there still really is not much on here. There's a little bit around the units. They are providing some opportunity for connectivity into a communal space in the commercial area. But there's very little on site. MCMAHON: Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: We have a speaker card? MENDENHALL: Yes, mayor. We do. We have two. We have Ed Stizza and Matthew Corrigan on deck. Page 117 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES STIZZA: I'll be quick. I know everybody wants to go home. So. What was I going to say? So as far as the -- so I thought we made a limitation. I know this is not falling in that, on SUPs. Didn't you propose that or that we were only going to allow that because you got another one coming up right after this, so might as well just ask it now to be quick. So I'm sorry, Mayor Dickey. I said I thought we put a limitation on SUPs. I could have sworn we did that, didn't we? MAYOR DICKEY: No, this is just extending -- STIZZA: No, no, I know what it is. I just thought that there was only so many extensions allowed. No. [CLERKS NOTE] Vice Mayor Sharron Grzybowski left the dais at 11:07 p.m. and returned at 11:09 p.m. WESLEY: So if I may, Mayor, just real quick to answer that. So what we did do when we revised the section of the code, it used to require you to get your building permit within six months, because we were reviewing a lot of these, they weren't quite able to make it that fast. We moved it out. So you only had to apply for your building permit within six months to give more time to get the site plan approved, and that's the change we made. But we still there's no limit on the number of times they can request an SUP extension. STIZZA: Okay. So that answers the question. Hopefully before you vote, John gives you the overall look at everything and before you grant it. But he's going to do that anyway. So that's it. Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman has a question. Oh. I'm sorry. Go ahead. CORRIGAN: Madam Mayor and Councilmembers. Matthew Corrigan, homeowner, full- time resident of Fountain Hills. Just a little background. My whole career has been building and construction related. I worked for two major fortune 500 companies, construction related and growth related. Owned my own business, construction related, growth related. And so you might say my entire livelihood throughout my career has been based on construction, new construction. With that said, a couple of things. Although the town council did last June approve the Glenwood project through a variance, the new special use permit request goes beyond that and expands beyond Page 118 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES that variance. The plan was originally a fourplex, triplex, and duplex, and now that's changed to a -- basically a -- instead of nine units it's now ten. So the fourplex has gone to a five plex, which really narrows the entire existing land. I think it's a third of an acre. So now we're getting into what I'm concerned about, that's density housing again. You've made your decision on a couple of projects here tonight that are very high density. But I would remind you that spot zoning can many times create a problem, a greater problem in the long run beyond the original intent of what you did last June. What I'm saying here is special use permits can be abused, and this plan seems to extend far beyond the original intent and is now creating more dense footprint, which I believe is inconsistent with the Fountain Hills plan in general. And I'm talking about the general plan. So I think the quality of life in all neighborhoods should be based on, in my opinion, the existing residential or commercial development. This obviously is kind of residential development in a commercial area. But I -- in short, I support the original plan, the fourplex, the triplex, and the duplex. But I am concerned, and without more information, I would oppose going to a five plex, a three plex, and a duplex. And thank you for your time. MCMAHON: Question? MAYOR DICKEY: Yes. MCMAHON: John, on the original item report, it says at the end there are several issues that will need to be resolved in the concept plan, and it is likely at least one unit will need to be removed to provide for required parking and an amenity area. So instead of a unit being removed, it's being added. So is there adequate parking or is that a concern? WESLEY: Mayor, Councilmember, so it was approved in June for ten - MCMAHON: I know. WESLEY: -- units and they've got that. They have resolved the driveway issue and parking issue, I believe. Again, I haven't gotten to study this in detail, but it looks like they have. The one thing that could still be considered not quite up to what we were looking for would be an amenity area. The only amenity area they have are up at the Page 119 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES corner. The connection to the commercial space and right around the mailbox area. So they're small, but there are some there. MAYOR DICKEY: Any other questions from council? GRZYBOWSKI: I just have a quick comment. I've had a number of developers tell me that six months really isn't a good amount of time for a lot of these projects. So I don't want to always hold that against them. And first of all, we did already approve it as ten units, so I don't think we can reconsider that, especially if they're meeting their other considerations. It does say that -- I failed to make a note on it, but that they have turned in the site plan -- just late based off of the way timing was for things to be turned around. And again, I have heard from a number of people that six months just really isn't enough time. So I don't have a problem with this particular extension at all. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Can I get a motion? What? You did it already. ARNSON: We already have a motion. MAYOR DICKEY: Oh, there you go. Roll call, please? MENDENHALL: Oh, I just want to make a note. There is a comment card that's in favor of this project in your packet. Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: Nay. MENDENHALL: Nay? Councilmember Toth? TOTH: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? FRIEDEL: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: No. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Aye. MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Aye. MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey? MAYOR DICKEY: Aye. Page 120 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES MENDENHALL: Passes, five to two. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. And our last regular agenda item is similar. TAVASSOLI: Mayor, Councilmembers, as you indicated, this is similar to the previous SUP extension request. This is in regards to a proposed 17-unit townhome style development that was proposed and ultimately approved through an SUP for the area just north of the intersection of Shea and Saguaro on the east side. And this is, Councilmember McMahon, the one across from the McDonald's that you were referring to earlier. So the SUP again, was for 17 residential units, as I mentioned, two stories tall, consisting of six buildings on the 1.62 acre parcel. I've provided a timeline here. In the interest of time, I won't go through it word for word, but I'll leave it right up here. But this is the third extension request from the applicant. I should, however, mention that the applicant's site plan was approved within the six-month time limit that they were allowed, so that occurred before June 7th. And as the applicant indicated in their letter requesting this extension, they have been awaiting some critical documentation in the form of drawings from the EPCOR water company. That is largely as they've indicated why this has been going at the pace it has been. I'm told that they should be getting -- they will be receiving those documents soon, if not they've already received it. And we should expect their second submittal for the building plans within the next couple of weeks. And with that, I'll conclude. MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. Do we have any speaker cards? MENDENHALL: We have one. Ed Stizza. STIZZA: I'm okay. MENDENHALL: You're okay? MAYOR DICKEY: Any council discussion or questions? Councilwoman? GRZYBOWSKI: I just wanted to -- I just wanted to just reiterate that the market demands have impacted the availability of engineers to perform the traffic study needed to proceed. That's verbiage taken directly from the staff summary report. So it sounds as though it's really no fault of the applicant to me. Is that correct? TAVASSOLI: Mayor, council or Vice Mayor, that's what they've indicated in the letter is Page 121 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES that it's really something that they've been awaiting EPCOR's -- basically, the ball's been in EPCOR's court to provide them the critical documentation they need to continue. GRZYBOWSKI: Okay. Thank you. I'm caring for everybody's time. I'm ready to make a motion as approved, if nobody else has anything else going on. TOTH: Second. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilwoman? KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah. Just one quick question. This letter was dated November 29th. Do they have the approval from EPCOR? Am I sleeping here? Have they got everything straightened out? TAVASSOLI: If Mayor, you would allow, I believe the applicant can address that. CARR: Council members, my name is Kurt Carr. I'm the applicant. We have been waiting three and a half months. Well, a little background. Six months is not enough time to get building a permit. And not to take a whole bunch of time, but let's say you can get your site plan approved in six months, which is really tough. You've got another six months to get a building permit approved. At the point that you get your site plan approved, you have just some basic drawings of a plat layout with where your roads and parking spots are going to be. You know, at that point, you then have to design your plans. You have to go through all the engineering for your site, for water and power. And like in the case of this, the water has to come across Saguaro Boulevard. And three -- almost three and a half months ago, we were told that we had to get -- and I don't remember the exact name of what -- an ATC and its approval to construct. You have to get that from Pierce County or -- sorry, I was thinking of Washington. Maricopa County, and we were not aware of that. And so as soon as we were told that we contacted EPCOR Water three and a half months ago and. We've been told -- I specifically have been told three times now in the last six weeks that they were going to look at it by Friday. They still haven't looked at it. Our time has run out and you know we're frustrated. KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah, that sounds frustrating. CARR: It is. We spent a lot of money and you know it -- really a year, you -- a year Page 122 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES would be a challenge to go from a site plan to full plans, full engineering, all the stuff you have to go through without having to continue to waste everybody's time. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. CARR: -- and the stress and all -- KALIVIANAKIS: Yeah, that's all I have for you. I'm sorry that they're giving you so much hard time, but yeah, I'd give this request for sure. CARR: Thank you. MCMAHON: Thank you. I appreciate the development, but given where it's situated, I still have really big traffic concerns, especially across from the hospital, McDonald's, et cetera. So thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Councilman? SKILLICORN: Thank you, Madam Mayor. You know, I do remember this one. And when I look at the site and it's a very odd -shaped parcel, I don't think it's overly dense, but I do remember residents being concerned about traffic. So at the time, you know, I was a no, I have to stay a no. But it sounds like there's majority support for this, so I'll actually make a motion to approve this. Not for six months, but for twelve months. Extension. Can we do that? MAYOR DICKEY: Can we do that? Okay. ARNSON: So an amendment to the main motion. SKILLICORN: Oh, was it motioned? ARNSON: Yeah. We had a -- we had a motion and a second. So you're just proposing an amendment. SKILLICORN: Then don't worry about it. ARNSON: Okay. SKILLICORN: Unless someone wants to make that motion. Six months is short in development. ARNSON: Yeah. I don't care. If someone wants to just -- if someone wants to accept Councilmember Skillicorn's friendly amendment, that's fine. Doesn't matter to me. TOTH: I'll go ahead and second that, considering the applicant's statement. Page 123 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES MAYOR DICKEY: So who made the main motion? GRZYBOWSKI: I did, okay. MAYOR DICKEY: Are you okay with that change? MCMAHON: What's the change? MAYOR DICKEY: She's changing it to 12, extending it for 12 months. GRZYBOWSKI: So my original motion was 6 months, and if my second person, whatever you're called, is okay with changing it to 12 months, then I will change my motion to 12 months. MAYOR DICKEY: All right. GRZYBOWSKI: And my second person still says okay. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. So we have a motion to extend for 12 months. Can we get a roll call, please? MENDENHALL: Yes. Councilmember Toth? TOTH: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Friedel? MCMAHON: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember Skillicorn? SKILLICORN: The friendliest no you ever had, right? MENDENHALL: Yeah. Councilmember Kalivianakis? KALIVIANAKIS: Aye. MENDENHALL: Councilmember McMahon? MCMAHON: Nay, to the (indiscernible). MENDENHALL: Vice Mayor Grzybowski? GRZYBOWSKI: Aye. MENDENHALL: Mayor Dickey? MAYOR DICKEY: Aye. Thank you. MENDENHALL: It passes. MAYOR DICKEY: Okay. Council discussion, direction? I don't think there's anything. Future agenda items. No, please. Councilwoman? Page 124 of 125 TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS JANUARY 17, 2024 TOWN COUNCIL MEETING MINUTES KALIVIANAKIS: I'm sorry. Speaking about beating a dead horse. I'd like to put on the future agenda item the extension of the moratorium on 5G and broadband for another six months. And I think I need to -- TOTH: I'll second that. KALIVIANAKIS: Okay. And I think I need a third. FRIEDEL: Third. If you need it. And I have a question for research. I don't remember us giving away our rights to have three council members add something to an agenda, even though we did change it to be at the end of the council meetings. Can we research that and see if we gave away our right to do it either way? MAYOR DICKEY: Yes we did. ARNSON: I think you amended the policy to say that you're going to do it in a public meeting. FRIEDEL: Okay. ARNSON: Yeah, that's what the amended policy says. FRIEDEL: All right. So that is in fact true? ARNSON: Yeah. And I'll confirm it with you. But I'm like virtually certain that's what the policy is, yeah. FRIEDEL: Thank you. MAYOR DICKEY: Anything else from anybody? Thanks, everyone, for hanging in there. And we're adjourned. Page 125 of 125 Having no further business, Mayor Ginny Dickey adjourned the Regular Meeting of the Fountain Hills Town Council held on January 17, 2024, at 11:24 p.m. ATTEST AND PREPARED BY: TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS n/1 Ginn Dickee , Mayor LI"nda G. Mendenhall, Town Clerk CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Regular Meeting held by the Town Council of Fountain Hills in the Town Hall Council Chambers on the 17th day of January 2024. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. DATED this 19`h Day of March 2024. Linda G. Mendenhall, Town Clerk