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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2000.0801.TCSM.Minutes TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS MINUTES OF THE SPECIAL JOINT SESSION OF THE FOUNTAIN HILLS TOWN COUNCIL AND THE PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION AUGUST 1,2000 Mayor Morgan called the Special Session of the Town Council to order with a roll call taken. ROLL CALL— Present for roll call were the following members of the Fountain Hills Town Council: Mayor Sharon Morgan,Vice Mayor Sharon Hutcheson, and Councilmembers Leesa Fraverd, John Kavanagh, Susan Ralphe, John Wyman, John McNeill. Present for roll call were the following members of the Fountain Hills Parks and Recreation Commission: Chairman Michael Fleck, Vice Chairman Tim Brown, Kim Marshburn, Cimber Nuessle, Dick Schmidt, and George Williams. The following Commission members were absent: Meta Brinton and Al Lorenz. Also present were Town Manager Paul Nordin, Town Attorney Bill Farrell, and the Director of Administration/Town Clerk Cassie Hansen. AGENDA ITEM #2 — DISCUSSION OF THE PARKS AND RECREATION COMMISSION GOALS AND OBJECTIVES INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE COMMISSION'S ROLE,ADVISORY CAPACITY AND SIZE. Town Manager Paul Nordin said he would ask Sue Degler to schedule individual Council appointments with him in preparation for Thursday night's Council Meeting. Mayor Morgan pointed out that the Park and Recreation Commission's role was as advisors to the Council. She noted that when many members of the Council found out about the Parks and Recreation Commission's plans via the local newspaper, they had been upset. Many of the Council felt that they were being presented to the public as the bad guys and that the Council was going to say no to those plans. She also felt that the Commission should not participate in personnel matters as none of the other commissions advise on personnel issues or give direct orders to staff. She said all the Commissions needed to work under the same guidelines. She pointed out that some of the wording in the Town Code outlining the responsibilities of the Parks and Recreation Commission should be changed. Mayor Morgan proposed the following changes: deleting the word "power" in Section 9-2-2, deleting Item D, including the words "other than personnel matters" in Item A, and inserting these words after assist in Item C -"staff if requested". Councilman Kavanagh said he had always thought that the Parks and Recreation Commission was one of the least powerful of the commissions because unlike the Planning and Zoning Commission the Parks and Recreation Commission did not have the power to vote on special use permits, deny various plats, etc. He said he felt it was not so much substance, as it was form when referring to the wording of the Parks and Recreation Commission section of the Town Code. He noted that by eliminating Item D their ability to advise would be taken away. Mayor Morgan responded that the Parks and Recreation Commission was charged with advising the Council on everything. She stated that if property or real estate were to be donated it would be the Council who would make the decisions and the ones to enter into the discussions with the donator. Councilman Kavanagh noted that all Item D said was that the Parks and Recreation Commission advised. Mayor Morgan agreed and said she did not have a problem leaving that item in if the other Councilmembers wanted it. Councilman Kavanagh agreed with Mayor Morgan's suggestion of removing the word "powers" but he would hesitant to remove their advisory role. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said she saw it as a stretch for the Parks and Recreation Commission to advise staff on money, personal property, or real estate. Councilman Kavanagh said he thought one of the major charges of the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission was to investigate donations and how to raise them. He reminded the Council that they were dealing with volunteers and admitted having a fondness for Parks and Recreation as he had served on the Commission for so long. Mayor Morgan said her intentions were to bring 1/446, the Parks and Recreation section of the Town Code in line with the other commission's charges. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 1 of 19 Vice Mayor Hutcheson proposed that by inserting the words "other than personnel matters" in Item A, it took care of Item D. She had asked the Director of Administration, Cassie Hansen, to provide the written wording on the duties of some of the other commissions. She understood that the Parks and Recreation Commission had been formed early in the Town's formation so they had some other conditions to deal with. She asked why the Parks and Recreation Commission had nine members and all the other commissions, including the Council, had seven. Councilman Wyman agreed with the proposed change made by the Mayor to delete the word "powers". He reminded the Council they were looking for good staff work and he felt the way this section was drafted was not a problem. He said there might be some problem with the interpretation of it. He said he had the impression that the Parks and Recreation Commission was going off in their own direction without advising the Council first. Mayor Morgan clarified why she wanted to see the words "other than personnel matters" in Item A. She said that unless the last Parks and Recreation Commission's minutes were wrong it appeared that the Commission had come down on Parks and Recreation Deputy Director Bryan Hughes. She was of the opinion that Deputy Director Hughes should be taking his direction from his superiors. She had felt bad for Deputy Director Hughes as he was new and here were the Commissioners firing off demands and inquiries of why weren't things done. Vice Chairman Tim Brown suggested asking Deputy Director Hughes how he felt about the events of that meeting. Vice Chairman Brown said the minutes did not adequately reflect what happened at the meeting. Mayor Morgan said the Commissions did not have the authority to order staff to do things or chastise staff for not accomplishing a direction given by the Commission. Vice Chairman Brown said that was not the case. Mayor Morgan said she was only going by what she had read in the minutes. Vice Chairman Brown said the Commission had asked Deputy Director Hughes for an explanation. Vice Chairman Brown again suggested asking Deputy Director Hughes if he had been treated unfairly. Vice Chairman Brown explained that they had asked Deputy Director Hughes for an explanation about a missed deadline, which they had publicly stated they did not hold him responsible for. Mayor Morgan asked who had given staff direction, as she did not think that the Council would have approved the request for staff to do the research. Commissioner George Williams clarified that the Parks and Recreation Commission had asked staff for Le information on MAG funds to see if it was a viable option. He said the Commission would have then included this information in the plan for Council review. The Commission's concern was that they did not want to bring a plan to the Council without addressing the ways to pay for it. Mayor Morgan said that it was her understanding that for Deputy Director Hughes to get the proper perspective and information it would require time from the Town engineers and other staff. She stated this type of direction had not been allocated nor budgeted for or anything else along those lines. Vice Chairman Brown said this situation went back three months when their Commission had asked staff for various information about the MAG funding and nothing had been done. He said the Commission's had voiced frustration that staff had missed the July 12, 2000 deadline and now the Town would have to wait a year to apply. He acknowledged that this situation was not Deputy Director Hughes' responsibility and that the Commission did not mistreat him. Mayor Morgan clarified that she did say Deputy Director Hughes had been mistreated. Vice Chairman Brown reiterated he would like Deputy Director Hughes to speak on the events of the meeting in question. Mayor Morgan said that it was not necessary to put him on the spot. Commissioner Dick Schmidt proposed that the Town obtain the booklet from the National Parks and Recreation Association outlining what that organization currently recommends today for responsibilities of the Parks and Recreation Commission. He said this booklet discussed three different types of Parks and Recreation Commissions and/or Committees. He felt some of the wording in the Town Code could be reworded. He thought if the Town Council and the Parks and Recreation reviewed the booklet as a small committee of two or three individuals from each, it might save everyone some time and aggravation. Then this committee could then come up with some recommendations within a month or so. Commissioner Schmidt also suggested that a member of the Town Council be assigned to attend all Parks and Recreation Commission meetings. He also suggested that a member of the Parks and Recreation Commission be assigned to attend all Town Council meeting to avoid miscommunication. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 2 of 19 Councilman John Wyman said he was uncomfortable with the issue of accountability. He said the Parks and Recreation Commission was made up of volunteers who gave of their time and the Town Council expected that commission to complete staff work. He asked if there was something wrong with the Parks and Recreations Commission challenging why the research was not done. He asked if the minutes must reflect what the ( Commissioners said or asked. He did not see anything wrong with holding staff accountable for any inquiries they made. He compared the Parks and Recreation Commission's role to that of the Traffic Standards Committee. He had stated up front at one of the meetings that this committee did not make decisions and that every action they discussed must go through the Town's Engineering department. He said it was the Engineering staff that was empowered to suggest an action and provide a staff recommendation to the Council for their consideration. Councilman Wyman expressed concern over past Parks and Recreation minutes, which reflected problems but those problems were then never addressed again. He felt that as a Commission they had every right to ask staff why a request had not been followed up on. He said that was merely doing their job. He did not want the rewording of the Town Code to strip the Parks and Recreation Commission of caring enough to have the plan thoroughly researched, studied, and perhaps have a recommendation prepared for consideration by the Town Council. He said he could understand it if the Commission wanted to express their disappointment that staff had not acted upon a request they had made, but it should not be personal and the minutes should reflect that. That way, the Council could question Paul about anything that was reflected in the Commission's minutes. Councilwoman Fraverd disagreed. She reviewed that as a former Planning and Zoning Commissioner if requests were not done to their satisfaction or quickly enough, the Commission did not feel it was their place to go to staff. The Commission felt they should direct their questions to the Town Manager as he was in charge. Commissioner Wyman asked why the Commission could not express a curiosity. Councilwoman Fraverd responded that to express curiosity was one thing but getting on them and questioning in an angry tone was another. Vice Chairman Brown denied that had been the case. Chairman Fleck said the Council had the advantage as the Parks and Recreation Commission had not reviewed the minutes yet. Councilwoman Fraverd said she had obtained her information from the paper. It indicated that the Commission had been disappointed and very upset with staff and she was unsure who "staff' was. Vice Chairman Brown said that was the paper's interpretation and that it did not happen. Councilwoman Fraverd suggested that the Commission members needed to be careful in what they said because there were reporters taking minutes for the paper and their interpretation might be different from what was meant. Chairman Fleck said the present Commission was conscious and cognizant of trying to be careful in choosing their words. He said that at that meeting he had been angry and frustrated when the information that they had requested had not been forthcoming. He said he thought he was politically correct in questioning staff. He gave background on what had happened at the previous Commission meeting with respect to the MAG funding research. He said he had brought this request up to the Community Plaza Committee at their meetings and asked if the Town could look into this. He said when Commissioner Williams became part of the Parks and Recreation Commission they had recognized that this was his area of expertise. Commissioner Williams had immediately said the MAG funding was a real source of funding for the Town in tight funding times. He said it had been at the March Community Plaza Committee meeting when there had been a consensus and a direct request made that the Town's Engineering staff look into this option. Subsequently, at every single Parks and Recreation Commission meeting and facilities sub-committee meeting the Commission had made the same request. He said the Commission never went to staff directly and ordered staff to do anything. He explained he had held conversations with the Town Manager and the Director of Administration and it was the understanding of the Commission that staff would look into this funding option. He noted the Commission's frustration as natural and legitimate. He felt it had been within their bounds of community volunteerism to voice that frustration. Councilwoman Fraverd said she would have to agree that if the Commission did not get any satisfaction from the Town Manager, then the Commission should have talked to members of the Council. She said she never heard anything about this unanswered request made by the Commission. She stated the Commission was focusing on one particular thing that took place and she was looking at the bigger picture, which was the Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 3 of 19 rewording of the Parks and Recreation Town Code section with respect to staying out of personnel matters. She said if the Commission was saying that the meeting didn't happen the way it had been reported in the paper that was terrific. But she pointed out there had been some kind of miscommunication and the Commission should be aware of it. She noted that there was a chain of command and hoped that the Commission knew what it was. She suggested that the Commission call upon the Council if requests to the Town Manager went unanswered. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said the Town already had a blueprint for how the Council, the Planning and Zoning Commission, and the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission operated. She understood that the Parks and Recreation Commission was one of the first commissions formed and that was one of the reasons that there were differences. She reviewed that they were a Commission just like the others and that it was important that all the Commissions operated under the same guideline of responsibilities and not necessarily more. She said she was interested in rewording just a few of the items in the Town Code. She agreed with the removal of the word "powers", as it did not appear in the duties of the other Commissions and omitting all advisory pertaining to personal matters. She said she understood that not even the Council had the authority to interfere in personnel matters other than the Town Manager, Magistrate, and Town Attorney. Councilman Wyman inquired if that statement was in writing. Town Manager Nordin responded that it was included in the Town Code. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said this was a good opportunity for the Council to look at bringing the Parks and Recreation Commission in line with the other Commissions, by giving the Parks and Recreation Commission the same authority that the other Commissions had. She again asked why the Parks and Recreation Commission had nine members. She suggested that perhaps it was a good time to uniformly set the required number of members at seven. Town Manager Nordin apologized and said that perhaps he had also been a victim of the newspaper article. He had not realized the level of frustration of the Parks and Recreation Commission. He said if the Commission felt that way again to come and talk with him first. He said that the process was moving along relatively well and that he had understood the MAG application process was not annual but bi-annual. He thought that the Town could apply every six months instead of once every year. Therefore, the last impression he had prior to the L meeting in question was that the process could make the next six-month time frame if they did not make the July 12th filing deadline. He acknowledged there were a number of engineering issues that he was becoming aware that created significant problems. He had wanted time to get the package together and he had found that it was not as easy as he had heard it would be. He said he had made one contact with the MAG staff and that he was aware that the Parks and Recreation Commission was considering this form of funding. Chairman Fleck noted that under normal circumstances the Commission would have contacted Mr. Nordin. He said the Parks and Recreation Commission had a great relationship with the Town Manager's office and also personally between the Town Manager and himself. He acknowledged that timing was an issue in this situation. Chairman Fleck said he was on vacation when Greg from the Times called his office to get his comment before the article appeared in the Times. He noted he had been available for comment. So he had no opportunity to add or detract from the Times' interpretation. He said the situation with the Commission's comments at that meeting had to do with Deputy Director Hughes and advising the Commission that a committee had been formed to look into the issue. Chairman Fleck said all that the Commission wanted to know was that a person to person contact would be made with someone at MAG. Deputy Director Hughes could not tell the Commission that had been done, which was the whole point of their frustration. He said because of the timing issue, he had not gotten the information from Deputy Director Hughes in hard copy form before it had been reported on at the meeting. So the response had been immediate. Chairman Fleck stated that at that point he had no opportunity to contact Mr. Nordin or follow the chain of command. He said it was shortly after that meeting that he left on vacation. Mr. Nordin responded to Vice Mayor Hutcheson inquiry on why the Parks and Recreation Commission had nine members. He recalled there was a lot of excitement after incorporation with Parks and Recreation very high on the list. He said meetings with then Councilmember Fox and Cassie Hansen were held discussing membership and the number of commission members. At that time, Councilman Fox had a strong desire to appoint a youth member with full voting rights just as any other commission member would have. He said that they had thought Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 4 of 19 seven was a good number and if a youth commissioner were added that would make eight, an even number. He recalled that it had been his suggestion to just make it nine in an effort to make it an uneven number of commissioners. Everyone at the time thought that was a wonderful solution. He said that hardly any thought was given to that suggestion and it was thought to be an easy solution to a problem, which had just come up. He { said that in the Town Code it states there will be no more than nine members on the Parks and Recreation Commission. Councilwoman Ralphe said she could understand the headiness at the time of incorporation and the need to have fairness and equity at this time. She favored a change in Section 9-2-1 to reduce the commission to seven members including a youth member. She suggested that by staggering appointments the natural order of time would bring the commission to seven members. Councilman McNeill acknowledged he had questioned why there were nine members on the Parks and Recreation Commission. He asked the Commissioners if they felt there were advantages to having nine members and maintaining the Commission at that current level. He suggested that if the Council wanted to change the number of Commissioners, the wording of the Town Code would not have to necessarily have to be changed because it clearly stated no more than nine members. He explained that the reduction from nine to seven could be handled through attrition and the change in the Town Code wording could happen later to make seven a permanent number. Commissioner Schmidt felt the more participation the better because then there was more community involvement. He recalled two practices from his prior experience. He suggested appointing advisors with the potential of those advisors to become a member of the Commission in the future. He also posed the use of alternates so that if any of the nine Commissioners were not available, the Commission could still have a vote. He said he was in favor of increasing the members to get more town participation. Commissioner Kim Marshburn said she did not want to see a reduction in the Commission membership as each of the current commissioners had a specialty interest. She pointed out that all the Commissioners had an interest 4488., in the park system as a whole. She said each Commissioner had unique strengths, which was a huge contributing factor to the Commission to doing a very good job. Chairman Fleck said there was no magic number of Commissioners in particular. The Commission had evolved to where it was today because there were so many different specialized constituents that Parks and Recreation served. He said the Commission had people who were eager to serve and acted, as liaisons to these different groups and he felt there was some real value in that. He said that he had not given any thought to a reduction in the number of commissioners and would have to give it some more thought before answering. Councilman Kavanagh said it was important to remember that unlike the other commissions or committees the Parks and Recreation was really two commissions. There was the program commission that dealt with all the different activities and then there was the separate multi-million dollar facilities committee. He reminded the Council that they were not talking about a limited focus commission. He said when he served on the Parks and Recreation Commission there were times when he felt that nine members were not enough. He said in as much as there was no salary cost involved and the commissioners liked the number nine and need it; he did not see what would be gained by cutting the number to seven. He asked how many people served on the Community Center Committee. Mayor Morgan replied that was not an official committee. Councilman Kavanagh said they were performing an advisory function and again asked how many people served on that committee. Director Hansen answered the committee fluctuated between ten and twelve. Councilman Kavanagh said that committee's focus had been much smaller than Parks and Recreation topic was and he felt there was justification for nine members. He proposed leaving the decision of how many members should serve up to the Parks and Recreation Commission. Mayor Morgan questioned if the Council should have more members because they covered as many, if not more, diverse topics than the Parks and Recreation Commission. She noted that if seven members can handle the Council issues with all the responsibilities that they have and by what they're charged with by their Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 5 of 19 constituents, she wasn't sure why seven people couldn't handle those responsibilities charged to the Parks and Recreation Commission. She noted that at this point she did not care how many people served on the Parks and Recreation Commission. L. Commissioner Marshburn reminded the Council that there was a salary paid to each Councilmember and the Parks and Recreation Commission were all volunteers. Mayor Morgan responded that everyone present should not forget that was a stipend payment to Councilmembers. Commissioner Marshburn clarified that she was not suggesting that the Commissioner should be paid only that there was a difference between the two. Councilman Wyman agreed that the Council certainly earned their salaries. He acknowledged that one of the things that made the Council's job possible was the outstanding staff participation. He pointed out that it started with the Commissions. He noted that by the time the item was before the Council, his only problem was to read it and understand it. He noted that type of staff work took people. Mayor Morgan suggested that perhaps the number of people serving on the other Commissions and the Council should be increased. She said uniformity was missing and there was a need for all Commissions to operate under the same set of rules. Mr. Nordin reminded the Mayor that the Council could not increase their number. Councilwoman Fraverd stated she would like to think about this issue further. Councilman McNeill noted that the last meeting between the Commission and the Town Council had been in February of 1999, which was a 11/2 ago. He said that was too long between joint meetings. He acknowledged that the document regarding the 5 and 7 year plan was a wonderful piece of work by the Commission, but he felt that as the Council went through it there would be things to talk about, which represented at this time a lack of communication. He noted that the issue regarding the MAG funding was another example of miscommunication and he would be looking for ways to improve the lines of communication. Mayor Morgan pointed out that in the last set of joint meeting minutes there wasn't anything said that indicated things were not going along fine. She made the analogy that if the boss didn't tell the employee that they were doing things wrong that the employee would assume they were doing everything right. She said the Council shared the blame if the Council did not bring those things to the Commission's attention that the Council was not happy about. Councilman Wyman asked in as much as the Council was a governing body and the Parks and Recreation Commission was an advisory body, wasn't that essentially what the Commission was doing by expressing their frustration at their Commission meeting. Mayor Morgan said yes, except that the Council should not have found out about their frustration in the newspaper. Councilman Wyman agreed with her statement. Commissioner Schmidt reiterated that it would be great to have one of the seven Councilmembers volunteer to be a liaison member to the Parks and Recreation and attend their monthly meetings. That way the Council would know what's going on and the Commission would know what their feelings were. Councilman Wyman asked how they proposed to corral the newspaper. Mayor Morgan agreed that could not be done. Councilman Wyman said the Council and the Commission should not beat themselves up over this. Mayor Morgan proposed that the Commission would have to be more careful in how some things were expressed. She proposed using terms such as things were in the "planning stages", things were on the "wish list", and not that this was a "done deal". Chairman Fleck directed everyone's attention to the minutes. He said the minutes reflected two specific occasions where he had gone on at great lengths knowing that the Times reporter was in the audience in order to clarify that the Parks and Recreation Commission did not intend to ask the public for $20 million dollars. The Commission was merely putting together an inventory list or wish list that would later be prioritized. He pointed out that he could not control what the Times reports. He said he did not think that anything that had been reported was factually in error. He stated it might be a case of emphasis. He voiced confusion and alarm, as he was not sure what the Commission had done over the last few months or even weeks except for the handling of this MAG issue to cause the Council concern. He said in his experience with Parks and Recreation he had never worked with a group of people who had performed such due diligence as this Commission had. He Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 6 of 19 said they did the research and they talked to other people. He said the Commission tried to have regular meetings with town staff and the Town Manager. He said they had made overtures to the Mayor and almost begged the public to come forward and give their input. He stated he was not sure what the Council's concern was. Chairman Fleck noted that the Commission took their cue from the general plan's parks and open space portion, which pointed to certain problems this community had to deal with. He said one of the big problems was that there was no master plan. He explained that was what the Commission's whole process had been about. They wanted to develop a master plan with associated real values and real costs so that they could go to the community in a public forum. In the public forum they would provide the cost information and then ask the public if that was what they wanted. He said with feedback from the community and experts, the Commission would then make their recommendation based upon everything gathered and then advise the Council. He stated the Commission had simply not gotten to that point yet of making the recommendation to the Council. He said it seemed that the community was also making an assumption this was a done deal and that this was the plan, but he acknowledged that the Commission was not at the recommendation stage yet. Councilwoman Ralphe said she gave the Parks and Recreation Commission and Department high grades for quantity and quality of work. She noted that when it comes to publicity it's not always totally within the control of the Commission or the Town Council. She said there was one area, which might help control how the message got out that the Council or the Commissioners really wanted to get out. She suggested the use of news releases. She acknowledged that a reporter's coverage of public meetings were not controllable. She said if the news releases were to be funneled by the Commission or various departments through the Town Manager's office to the Mayor there would be at least be two reviewing the best way to release the information. Councilman Wyman said he had attended some of the Parks and Recreation Commission meetings and noted there were many who had admiration for the Commission and the department for their work. He said from the article, the plan appeared to be a done deal and he wondered if this issue was due to a lack communication. He reviewed how the McDowell Mountain Preservation Commission made sure that the Council was aware of their actions at every step. Councilman Wyman said that when he read the newspaper article he felt that the Council's next step would be to recommend a $20 million bond issue to the community and he had questioned how had the Town got to this point without knowing more about the program. He said he was not criticizing the need for it or the plan itself. He only noted that somehow he would have liked to have heard about the plan before it was in the paper. Mayor Morgan agreed. She said it was hard to explain the plan to those who inquired without having any prior notification or explanation from the Parks and Recreation Commission. She also felt it was a communication problem. Commissioner Williams agreed and stated that the Commission did not have the power. He reiterated that the Commission's purpose had been to get as much information as possible and as complete as possible. This would allow the Council to stand behind the plan or to tweak the plan as necessary. He said maybe the Commission should have gotten the information to the Council sooner, but on the other hand he stated the Council could have asked at anytime and the Commission would have provided the Council with all the information they had gathered. He agreed that more communication was needed on both sides. Mayor Morgan reviewed that the Council should have known about the plan before it hit the paper. AGENDA ITEM #3 — DISCUSSION OF PLANNING AND COORDINATING PROJECTS WITH THEIR JURISDICTIONS. Mayor Morgan read an e-mail she had received from the president of the school board requesting a meeting to discuss the items listed in the newspaper article: a Fountain Hills Aquatic Center either at the high school campus or at the new school — a misprint?? State land preservation statement including state land north of Town — any idea?? High School running track partnership?? Other school district partnerships to locate parks and recreation Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 7 of 19 facilities adjacent to schools particularly joint usage of 15-25 acres next to the new middle school addition — coordinate and design and access to gymnasium and classrooms for the design at the new middle school?? Mayor Morgan expressed her concern over this item: McDowell Mountain Elementary flat piece of land south of the school 10-11 acres nice grassy area for various school and recreation activities?? BMX track- possible location next to the new middle school?? Linked bike and trail path to the McDowells?? She thought it was ironic that there was no mention of the area on the far side of the wash at the northeast end of the high school campus. She had thought that had been a high priority at one time. She said this information was what the school board president got out of the newspaper. Mayor Morgan said that the School Board had never met to discuss these issues. Vice Chairman Brown asked the Council to use April 1, 2000 as a benchmark. He pointed out that everything on that list, except for the BMX track had been on their active wish list for 18-months. He said Councilman Kavanagh could verify that because at that time, he had been a Parks and Recreation Commissioner. He explained that he had picked April ls` as the benchmark because that was when the Commission held their first retreat and prepared their first lists of critical objectives and strategy planning. He explained that the book was not put together until July 5th with a revision done on July 27th, and everything else was made up of meetings prior to July 5t. He apologized that the Council was not given a copy of the document. He stated that he was not sure if the Town Manager had received a copy of the draft from the prior Parks and Recreation Director or not. He reiterated that these documents had been available for 18 months. Vice Chairman Brown remarked that the Commission has held twenty-five public hearings, Commission meetings, or sub-committee meetings and that the Commission had also met with the school district six times since that April ls`benchmark. He acknowledged that the School District had a liaison that faithfully attends the Commission meetings at least four times a year. He explained that there had been an exchange of information between the Commission and the School District. He asked that the Council not believe everything that they read in the paper and to give the Commission a chance to make a presentation so that the Council could understand what was going on. Vice Chairman Brown asked the Council that up until this MAG issue and the disclosure of the $20 million dollar price issue, had the Council ever received any calls or complaints from the public regarding the actions of the Parks and Recreation Commission? Councilman Wyman said no,quite the contrary. Vice Chairman Brown again asked the Council for the opportunity to make a presentation. Mayor Morgan expressed concern and pointed out that the President of the School Board had contacted her saying some of the things on the list could impact their lease. She reiterated that before the information was put into the paper the Commission should have requested and received the School District's input. Vice Chairman Brown explained that information was discussed at a public hearing and the Commission did not have control over what was reported. He believed that the school representative had taken the information back to the School District over a period of time and that the School District knew what the Commission was preparing. Mayor Morgan reminded Vice Chairman Brown that the Commission had not gotten the School District's approval. Vice Chairman Brown acknowledged that the Commission did not have the School Board's approval. Mayor Morgan said she did not understand how the Commission could make statements of what the Town was going to do without the approval of the School Board. Vice Chairman Brown stated that the Commission had not made any such statements and he pointed out that neither he nor Chairman Fleck had made any direct quotes. Mayor Morgan agreed but said the School Board was going by what was printed in the newspaper. Vice Chairman Brown remarked that the Commission had not made any statement to embarrass or to affect the Council one way or another. Commissioner Williams clarified that the Commission never said these were things that they were going to do, but these things were a part of a wish list put together in an effort to save the community money. He said one of the things that the Commission wanted to look into was participating in various partnerships. He stated the Commission had been brainstorming to see if any of the ideas were viable. He explained that the Commission did not want to bring ideas to the Council unless they were viable. He said in order to weed out ideas and discuss them among themselves they must hold public meetings. He again stated that if the reporter writes those ideas down as things that the Commission was going to do it was not fair to blame the Commission for the report's interpretation. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 8 of 19 Mayor Morgan said the School Board was somewhat paranoid that their deal for their new school site would fall apart. She said she understood their concern when reading some of the things on the list. She said that if the list was not directly for education,their plans could be wiped out. As an example, she said the lights on the ball field at the middle school was not part of their educational program as that school did not have activities at night. She noted that the School Board was very protective and very paranoid and perhaps the list that they read in the paper should have been titled "wish list" but it wasn't. She said that the School Board was not angry but they were not happy with some of the items listed. Councilman Kavanagh said he had attended the two Parks and Recreation meetings where the original "wish list #1" was presented at about$10 million and at the second meeting "wish list#2"presented with an estimated cost to be between$18-20 million. He said the Commission clearly stated that these lists were proposals that needed to be prioritized and estimates received. He specifically raised that point during the meeting knowing that the newspaper reporter and the public were there in an effort to clarify that the items being discussed were just a wish list and that the Parks and Recreation Commission was not asking to spend $20 million dollars. He said that had been affirmed. He said that the only way to prevent that rumors from starting or misinterpretations would be to close all the meetings and have the discussions in private and at the very end come out. He pointed out that action was illegal and no one would want to do that. He stated that everyone would have to live with the inevitable reality that the public was going to misinterpret what public officials were doing, sometime innocently and sometimes to advance their own agendas. He said everyone knew that could happen and as it was part of politics. He said he did not remember if the paper had reported the list as a done deal. Mayor Morgan said School Board President Dickey had asked how some of the items got into the newspaper. Chairman Fleck responded that the memo from President Dickey was prior to a conversation he had with President Dickey where he had shared some of those same concerns as well. He said that the Parks and Recreation Commission had held a number of meetings with members of the school administration. He did not want to put anyone on the spot, but in every one of those meetings these items had been discussed. He said the School Administration had indicated they were interested in looking at and forming some partnerships. He said in his conversations President Dickey it had been indicated that they would have to be low key about these items because there were some sensitive areas. He said they also discussed how they could get the Parks and Recreation Illy Commission together with the governing body of the School District for this type of a sit down meeting to air these issues. Chairman Fleck reiterated that the Parks and Recreation Commission did due diligence and never hid anything from anyone. In fact,the Commission had sought people out. Mayor Morgan responded that the Councilmembers were being asked how this happened. Councilman Wyman stated he had asked for a meeting with the Parks and Recreation Commission through the Town Manager. He said he had requested the joint meeting after attending a Commission meeting where they had made the statement that their Commission should get together with the Traffic Standards Committee to decide how things were to be integrated to ensure that the plan would not create traffic problems. He said he had not realized that the plans were that far along where the traffic flow patterns sidewalk issues and other such things would need to be decided. Councilman Wyman acknowledged there had been some confusion. Commissioner Williams said the Commissioners were not trying to design at that level. He again stated that the Parks and Recreation Commissioners were trying to do as much due diligence as possible by looking at connectivity issues. The Commission knew that the Traffic Standards Committee had engineering staff who had ideas on how to connect plans and to do them safely. The Commission was looking at it as a partnership with the Traffic Standards Committee in an effort to save time and money. He stated all their plans were preliminary. He said everyone was trying to do the best for the community and he also felt the issue here was the lack of communication between the Council and Parks and Recreation Commission. Vice Mayor Hutcheson emphasized that this discussion was not an effort by the Council to beat up the Parks and Recreation Commission. She admired the amount of work and the time and effort that the Commissioners put in. She acknowledged they performed an incredible amount of work. She stated this discussion was about the issues. She said the Council had concerns regarding the survey that the Parks and Recreation Commission had planned to do because of some of the proposed questions. She said the draft was a terrific piece of work with terrific goals. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 9 of 19 She agreed discussions must be held in a public meeting. Therefore, the meeting would be covered in the newspaper and she noted it sometimes might not be reported the way the Commission would want it to be covered. She was concerned that the expectation levels of the public would be raised for things that were not possible and thus cause confusion when no one was sure that the plan could be happen. Vice Chairman Brown stated the Commission had received permission for the survey up to a certain dollar amount from the Town Manager. Vice Chairman Brown said everything that they had done had the word "draft"on it and had not been picked up that way in the paper. He said that Councilmen Kavanagh and Wyman could attest that everything that the Commission said was either tentative or draft. He said the Parks and Recreation Director had been consulted as to what she thought as well as the Town Manager for his recommendations of companies to contact and further clarification of dollar limitations. He also felt the current issues of concern were in part due to the time issue and the inaccurate exchange of information that the Council and others did not receive. He again stated that since April 1, 2000 (18 months) the Commission had been stating these items publicly in twenty-five different meetings. He noted that not a lot of people came to the Commission meetings and expressed appreciation to those few Councilmembers who did. He stated that the Town Manager had attended one of their meetings to educate them on the four funding mechanisms that the Commission did not know about. He pointed out that was when they first heard about general obligation bonds. Mayor Morgan asked why there was a need to do another survey when the document reflected the publics' wants. Commissioner Marshburn said the Commission was only basing the list upon those who showed up at their Commission meetings. The Commission felt that the use of a survey would be a good instrument to determine the accurate feelings of the entire Town. Commissioner Marshburn said the draft survey was not the final version. She stated that all Commissioners were doing their job and it was unfortunate that the emphasis was placed on the "if' instead of the "when" the program was to be implemented. She suggested that the discussion turn to how to prevent this situation from happening in the future. Mr. Nordin said the first part of the text in the survey had been completed with the former Councilmembers so all of the current Councilmembers did not have the opportunity to participate in the first part due to the election cycle. 460, He acknowledged that Vice Chairman Brown was right by stating the Commission had come to him with the request to perform a survey. Mr. Nordin recalled the cost of the survey to be $10,000, which was under his authority to approve. He explained that even though the amount was under his expenditure authority, he had written a memo the Council with an attachment of the proposed survey. He had asked the Council to contact him with any comments or questions. He said Councilman Mower had been the only Councilmember to respond to his memo at that time. He stated that Councilman Kavanagh, after his appointment, had asked to see the proposed survey questions,which Mr.Nordin said he would provide to all of the Council upon receipt. Mr. Nordin admitted that he had not read the questions thoroughly but had immediately attached a cover memo and distributed the survey to the Council when he received it. He said this time he received comments from several Councilmembers who had expressed some concerns with regard to the questions being asked. He stated that was when he stopped the survey. He acknowledged that it had created some anxiety, but he argued that the process had been handled appropriately. Chairman Fleck added that the Council saw the draft survey questions before the Parks and Recreation Commission had. Mr. Nordin said that was correct because of the direction he had given his staff to immediately put the survey on his desk the moment it was received. He then had it sent out to the Mayor and the Council for their review. He agreed that the Council probably did receive the survey questions before the Commissioners had. Vice Chairman Brown again asked the Council what had the Commissioners done wrong and why did the Council continue to question the Commissioners' actions. Mayor Morgan said the first draft's wording troubled her. One such question was -Was your Council spending your money properly? Mayor Morgan asked if the Commission had given the people who were doing the survey direction as to what type of questions to ask. Vice Chairman Brown said no. Mayor Morgan responded that she thought the Commission had. She said that if the Commission was asking for the survey to be done, she thought that the Commission would given some direction to the company performing that survey in order to get the type of information back that the Commission wanted. Vice Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 10 of 19 Chairman Brown said the Commission would not do anything to embarrass the Council politically. He stated he was involved in Parks and Recreation for the purpose of community volunteerism. Commissioner Schmidt said he too had concerns on some of those questions. He said there must have been a letter of intent entered into with the company performing the survey. He said the Commission could not have directed the company until there was a contract in place. He said that once the company had the contract, they had provided a draft survey on which the Commission had recommended some changes to the question wording. He stated the changes had not yet been made. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said part of the problem was that some of the Council was not aware of the survey until once again they read about it in the paper. She stated that was not a proper way to do things. She said the Council should be kept in the loop and informed so that the Council could answer the public's questions as to if this was another one of those phony surveys. She said it was again a lack of following the proper process and the lack of communication between both parties. She said this was a source of confusion for the public and embarrassment for the Council. Commissioner Williams agreed it did come down to the miscommunication issue and the Council's assumptions. He reiterated that the Commission gave direction to company by listing some of the things that the Commission wanted to do and talked about. This draft was what the company had returned for review. He pointed out that the Council did receive the survey before the Commission had reviewed it at their meeting. He stated that the newspaper reporter was present at that meeting and that the Commission had discussed the survey questions inquiring why some of the questions were worded in such a manner. He noted that Councilman Kavanagh had many questions for the company who had provided the survey questions. Mayor Morgan stated that she had formed her opinion from reading the range of survey questions prepared. She expressed that without knowing that the Commission had not requested those questions, she had wanted to know who had died and left the Parks and Recreation Commission in charge of the Town. Vice Chairman Brown responded that the Commission had gone through staff to do the survey. Commissioner Williams said it was again the communication thing and all the Council would have had to do was ask the Commission for information. He Ilikr suggested the Council come to the Parks and Recreation Commission meetings. He said that with regard to the survey, if the Council had questions while reviewing it, the Council could have come to them for clarification because the Commission had not received a copy of the survey at that point yet. Chairman Fleck acknowledged there wasn't time for the Council to react and ask for the Commission's information that quickly. Mayor Morgan agreed. Commissioner Williams felt that the Commission was in trouble for something that they did not do or intend to have happen. Mayor Morgan inquired if the Council knew that the Commission was planning to do a survey. Commissioner Williams responded that he thought it had been mentioned in their meeting minutes on several occasions. Councilman Kavanagh interjected that the irony of the survey controversy was that the Council was now chastising the Parks and Recreation Commission for doing what the Council had asked them to do only twenty minutes ago. He said that the Council had explained to the Commission that the Council wanted to be on board early. Now,the Council was telling the Commission they should not have forwarded the first draft of the survey to the Council as soon as it had come in. Mayor Morgan stated she was not sure that she saw the draft. Town Manager Nordin said it might have been the first draft that had been distributed. Mayor Morgan did not recall seeing the document with the word "draft" written on it. Councilman Kavanagh admitted discussing those questions for about an hour at that Commission meeting, that the Commission had been discussing the wording of the survey questions and that the word draft was clearly displayed. He said the Commission had indicated at that meeting that the document was not finalized. Councilman Kavanagh asked if the Commission provided the Council with the first draft, the Council should have corrected it before it went out. Now the Council was suddenly asking why had the Commission given the Council the survey and not tell the Council anything about the survey. L Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 11 of 19 Mayor Morgan pointed out she did not see the relevance of some of the questions on the survey and what they had to do with the parks and recreation subject matter. Councilman Kavanagh agreed with that point but noted that the Commission had not approved the survey. Mayor Morgan reiterated that if the document didn't say draft, she would not know that they had not approved the survey. Vice Chairman Brown stated that the company representative had come to the Parks and Recreation meeting late for that particular meeting and did not make his original presentation. He explained that was when the Commission had first received the survey document. He said the Commission did not have the luxury of getting the survey earlier in the day. Councilman Kavanagh recalled that the paper had reported there had been a big debate on the questions and that the Commission was working on the survey. He acknowledged that the representative had stated they would go back and rephrase the questions addressing all the problems. Mr. Nordin announced that the company had not addressed any of the raised concerns. Commissioner Marshburn said the Commission had felt so good about the survey because this company had successfully helped with the school bond issue. So the Commission felt everyone was on board with this project. Mayor Morgan said the Council had expressed some concerns when they saw who was preparing the survey questions because some of the bogus surveys had also come from this company. Councilman Wyman said everyone seemed to be going full circle on some of the items. He proposed that all think about this situation and maybe communicate individually. Mayor Morgan agreed and moved on to Agenda Item #4. AGENDA ITEM#4—DISCUSSION OF THE PARKS AND RECREATION CAPITAL IMPROVEMENT PLAN AND BOND ELECTION PLAN (5 YEAR AND SEVEN YEAR) INCLUDING THE PRIORITIZATION AND COMPLETION OF NEW AND EXISTING PROJECTS AND THE USE OF A SURVEY INSTRUMENT. Mayor Morgan called for a ten-minute recess at 8:10 p.m. Mayor Morgan reconvened the special session at 8:20 p.m. Lir Mayor Morgan turned this portion of the meeting over to Chairman Fleck. Chairman Fleck requested that the discussion of the CIP be tabled due to the lateness of the hour. He asked that the discussion turn to the Commission's and the Council's hopes and concerns and provide the Commission with the Council's general directions. The Council agreed. Chairman Fleck said he had earlier alluded to the Town's General Plan and with the idea that there were certain problem areas identified and certain measures needed to solve those problems. He said for the Parks and Recreation Commission one of the problems was the need for a master plan and that they needed to try and determine what the community needs would be at build out. He said in his time on the Commission, two and years,most of that time had been spent in a catch up mode. Trying to give the community needed facilities. Some of those facilities had been identified long ago and had still not been addressed. He said the first thing that came to mind was a youth/community recreational center. He noted that facility was specifically addressed in the General Plan. He explained what the Commission had been trying to do over time was to identify, understand, and to prioritize those needs given the input from the community,experts sought out, and Councilmembers and staff. He said the CIP was the product of that evolution and the Commission had tried to attach real dollar amounts so that everyone knew what the costs would be. He said the Commission was very aware of the other needs of the community and that Parks and Recreation was not the only consumer of community tax dollars. He said what the Commission had tried to do most recently,once the numbers had been arrived at,was to: • Start to discuss real prioritization. • Involve the other community partners in that process and to see where resources could be shared. • Develop intergovernmental agreements and private/public partnerships. • Look for other outside sources of funding. • Try to understand this community's will and commitment to fund these services for themselves. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 12 of 19 Chairman Fleck said it was his understanding that the majority of what had been purchased for Parks and Recreation had come from outside the community. He pointed out that the money spent for Parks and Recreation out of the General Fund had been mostly for operation and maintenance costs. Mr. Nordin corrected him stating that there had been some capital expenditures as well. He said he did not have those number in terms of the comparison between grant and general fund dollars. He recalled that the Town had on more than one occasion put up sizable general fund dollars in matching funds for the grants received. But the reality was that the Town had obtained significant help from the Heritage Fund and there was no question about that. Director Hansen provided the following numbers: $3.6 million dollars spent for construction costs and approximately$2 million dollars had been received from grant revenues. Chairman Fleck said his point was that the Commission was not trying to foist any plan on the community. He stated the Commission wanted to listen to the community's ideas, to those who individuals who came forward to give the Commission their suggestions, and to those experts in development and parks planing areas. He said in light of everything that would have to be publicly paid for, the Commission wanted to go to the community with the facts and ask the public for their input on what the community wanted. He explained that was what the Commission had planned to bring to the Council for their consideration. He said it was the Commission's best estimate that the Town would go forward with a general bond election with a request for less than half of the $20 million dollars. He said the Commission had been trying to develop strategies to seek significant amounts of private and public monies elsewhere. Commissioner Williams said the Commission had wanted to start with a list of everything needed by the community at build out. He said that once the list had been compiled then it should be prioritized. He acknowledged that some of the items might not be accomplished for twenty or thirty years. He also alluded that the community might not want some of the items and that the Town might not be able to afford some of the items. He pointed out that at least there had been a list created and nothing had been left out. He said that the Commission wanted to go the public with the complete list and ask for their input to prioritize the items according to wants. He said the Commission also wanted to provide the public with the associated costs. He noted that some items might not cost as much as first thought due to MAG funding or due to partnerships with other organizations. Chairman Fleck pointed out that priorities due change. He noted the Town's change in demographics over the last six years. He stated that some of the items might not be wanted or needed. He said the Commission's best guess was that much of what was on the list would eventually be built in the years to come. He noted that if would be cheaper now if the Town could afford to do it. Councilwoman Fraverd said it was good to go to the public and that the Commission had done a wonderful job in compiling the list by putting some costs with the projects. She expressed that she would like to see the survey include a question of public interest on each item with the associated cost included. She proposed that then an explanation could be included if additional funding had been found to reduce the amount of public monies required for that item. That way the public could see what the actual individuals' cost would be. She did not think that the Commission was that far along in their planning. She asked why was nothing in the survey about grants. She said the Council was looking into impact fees and asked if the Council could help them with that funding mechanism. She felt the time frame had missed its mark with the Commission having already started the survey. Commissioner Williams replied that none of the Commission had done a professional survey before and they could not edit the first draft until they had received it. Then the Commission could make the necessary changes. He explained that they did not know if the company would make the changes based on what they said and incorporate the information on matching funds. He stated it had been the Commission's intent to edit the first draft. He said that the lack of MAG funding information was a source of frustration, as they would like to include the information on the survey. AGENDA ITEM #5 — DISCUSSION OF FUNDING MECHANISMS FOR FUTURE PARK PROJECTS INCLUDING THE PROCESS FOR DETERMINING TYPE OF FUNDING TO BE USED. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 13 of 19 Councilwoman Fraverd indicated that she had not read in the Commission's meeting minutes where they were looking into any other funding mechanisms. Commissioner Williams responded that the Commission had looked at many different funding mechanisms. Councilwoman Fraverd said that those discussions might have been held prior to her being on the Council and when she saw the suggestion of a general obligation bond for$20 million dollars and no other options that did not go over well with her. Councilman Kavanagh stated this plan needed a long-term capital finance plan. He explained that a long-term capital plan could not be completed unless the long term capital expenses and cost estimates were identified. He said essentially the CIP prepared by the Commission had all except for two long-term capital items: the Performing Arts Center and the preservation of the McDowell Mountains. He felt both items were Parks and Recreation interests although they had been given to other committees. He did not think the public could be asked to prioritize the list without including those big-ticket items, as they would impact the Town's overall spending. He agreed that the survey was a good idea and he recognized that neither the Commission nor the Council had a good cross section of the population in the audience at their meetings. He agreed that the company that had provided the survey draft had been a bad choice. He recommended that if the Town went forward with the survey, and he was in favor of doing so, he would like to price the survey first. He suggested the proper company to do the survey was the Morrison Institute of Arizona State University. He requested that this company be approached to formulate a survey with the suggestions made by the Commission and Council. He wanted them to understand that there was information that the Town wanted to provide to the pubic. He also wanted them to understand what insight the Town needed to gain from the public. He thought it would be relatively easy to do, as there were only two telephone exchanges. He felt that the cost would be under$10,000 but he wanted to see a price. Vice Mayor Hutcheson pointed out that this was the same company that had completed the original survey for the McDowell Mountain Preservation Task Force. Councilman Kavanagh suggested that the Morrison Institute be allowed to design the questions. Vice Chairman Brown asked that everyone read the General Plan, dated September 1997, between now and the next time that the Council and the Parks and Recreation Commission held another joint meeting. He explained Niro that way the Council might understand where the Commission was coming from and why the Commission had been holding public hearings. Councilman Kavanagh asked the Town Manager to look into what the cost of a survey would be if performed by the Morrison Institute. Mr.Nordin said he would check into it. Mayor Morgan said that she wanted the Commission to understand that the Council appreciated the amount of work that they put in. However,the Council did not like surprises in the newspaper. She said this meeting was by no means meant to be derogatory of any work being done or would be done by the Commission. She stated that "communication" must be emphasized. She acknowledged the frustration felt when an article was known to be untrue. She said that if nothing else came out of this other than better communication from both sides, then what was started tonight would have been accomplished. Mayor Morgan said there was a need for another joint meeting. Mr. Nordin said that it was obvious that the large numbers that were being discussed got everyone's attention. He suggested that since there was this level of interest, perhaps when the Council and the Parks and Recreation Commission meet about the Capital Improve Program and have their discussions only or primarily done in a joint meeting. He proposed scheduling one or two joint meetings so that both the Commission and the Council receive the information at the same time. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said that was a good idea. She said there was public concern and school concern about how this proposed plan might jeopardize projects already on the table and it was an issue that needed to be discussed. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said the Council needed more information so that they might give the Commission direction. She acknowledged that the Council needed some advice from the Town Manager. She pointed out that the Council needed some time to think about what they could do to correct some of the misconceptions that were out there and move forward in a more positive matter, thus keeping the Council aware and the public aware of what was really going on. She felt there was confusion at this time. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 14 of 19 Mr.Nordin said that this could be the answer given to a constituent that the Council was very concerned and so the Council and the Commission will continue to hold joint meetings. Mayor Morgan said additional joint meetings were not just needed but necessary because of the large sums of money that would affect everyone in Town. She concluded that this issue must be given serious consideration,conversation,and study. Chairman Fleck said that under that same respect he had discussed with Jim Dickey and Maria Menconi about having a similar joint session with the Governing School Board. Councilman Kavanagh suggested that the joint Council and Commission meeting be scheduled an hour before the last Council meeting in September(5:30p.m. — 6:30 p.m. on September 215t). He said that would allow the Commission two meetings before the joint meeting. The joint meeting would be for the specific purpose of discussing a finalized project list with cost estimates and hearing a report from the Town Manager on the information received from ASU regarding the survey. Mayor Morgan said the meeting would have to be tentatively scheduled because the Council might need to hold an executive session on matters that might transpire in the interim. Mr. Nordin suggested that no discussion be held with regard to the CIP by either the Council or the Commission until their joint meeting. Chairman Fleck did not understand Councilman Kavanagh's request. Did the Council want the Commission to bring a prioritize list to the Council or did the Council want to be a part of the prioritizing process? Councilman Kavanagh said he wanted the Commission to advise the Council as to what items should be included on the list, especially after the Commission had talked with the School Board. He said after talking with the School Board,the priorities might change and the list could reflect those changes. He said if the Council liked the ASU proposal,perhaps the survey could begin and the public could start to prioritize the list. Mr. Nordin said that the McDowell Mountain issue was the under the purview of the MMPC in terms of an advisory nature and it had not been a direction of the Council to now have the Parks and Recreation Commission consider any McDowell Mountain issue. Councilman Kavanagh said he did not want the Parks and Recreation Commission to advise on the preserve issue. He wanted the Parks and Recreation Commission to include it in the Capital Improvement Plan since the Council and the Commission would be talking about the financial end of the CIP. He felt that if two major issues, the Performing Arts Center and the Preservation Issue were not included, it would make the financial discussions irrelevant. Mayor Morgan asked if the Town would abandon those items, which the public did not rate as high a priority. Councilman Kavanagh said he did not believe that any funding plan would deal with these individual items sequentially. He didn't think that the survey of the people would say first do this then move on to this one. He said he would not want to ask the public to rate them 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, because that would be a very complex way of surveying the public. He thought what ASU would do was to read a list to the public of fifteen projects proposed by the Town along with a rough cost estimate for each. For each item read the public would be asked to rate the project as a high, medium, or low priority or one that they didn't want it at all. Then that data would be compiled for a general feel for the priorities and thus provide a rough idea to the Council as to a time order that the projects would be done in. This survey would merely give the Council and the Commission guidance to decide what the priorities should be and when. He pointed out that the elected representatives of the people would have to make the ultimate decision. Councilwoman Fraverd said if the survey was to be opened up to things other than Parks and Recreation she wanted to give some thought as to what other big ticket items the Town might have coming up. Besides the Performing Arts Center she was not sure why the McDowell Mountain issue should be included, as it had already been surveyed. She felt the survey planned by Parks and Recreation Commission was just for Parks and Recreation. If the Council was going to do a Town survey, the Council needed to look at the big picture and she felt more time and discussion would be needed. Councilman McNeill was primarily interested in prioritizing the Parks and Recreation items. The proposal contained in the plan was to take all or some of the items to the public through a bond election. He said what would be most helpful to him would be a survey that gave the Council the public's input on a broader basis than what the Commission had received at their individual meetings. He felt if the Council wanted to look at broader Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 15 of 19 issues, whether it would be the mountains or the Performing Arts Center, the Council could decide that at a later date. He was now interested in what projects were of the most importance to the public. Councilman Kavanagh asked where would the Performing Art Center be if it weren't included in the survey. The other Councilmembers said it shouldn't be included in the survey. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said it wasn't a factor in the survey and neither was the mountain issue as it had been discussed and surveyed. Councilman Kavanagh said he wanted public input as to the priority of construction by the Town. Mayor Morgan said these were two separate items,for which the public had already been asked for their input and the public had been and surveyed. Councilman Kavanagh said that this was a spending plan for the Town. Vice Mayor Hutcheson disagreed and said this was a spending plan for Parks and Recreation. Councilman Kavanagh asked, as far as a capital improvement plan went, how did the Council make the decision as to when the items were built and the money spent if those two items were not included in the financial plan. He wanted guidance from the public on the order of construction. Vice Chairman Brown said that in order for the Commission to prioritize the list, they would have to hold meetings to discuss them and also talk to the school district. Mr. Nordin said he had concerns due to the magnitude of the numbers and the sensitivity of the issue. He said if the Commission talked about the issue in a public forum it would be reported on again and there was a chance the same situation that was now being discussed could happen again. He suggested that to avoid that problem it would be best if no discussions were held until the Council and the Commission met jointly and there would be less chance for miscommunication. Commissioner Williams said the Council was now up to speed on what the Commission was trying to do so there was less chance of miscommunication occurring. He said a press release could be used to let the public know there was to be more joint meetings on this issue and clearly stating that all discussions were preliminary with no final decisions being made. Councilman Wyman said he wanted to go ahead with the survey based upon the Parks and Recreation listing. Mayor Morgan asked Mr. Nordin to find out whether ASU received a better response from a written or phone survey. She expressed concern for the many people who had caller ID. She said that if someone called her and it registered as an unknown caller she would not pick up the call. She felt others would react the same way and therefore taint the survey results. Councilman Kavanagh said that most polls, for economic purposes, used telephone responses. Councilman Kavanagh said it would be a mistake to tell the Parks and Recreation Commission to only talk with the Council about this issue in a joint meeting. He now felt that all parties were sensitive to the need to be very precise in their wording. He did not want to have perpetual joint meetings with the Commission. Councilman Kavanagh hoped that the Commission could continue their regular meetings. Chairman Fleck said he understood that the bond language must be accurate. He asked if the bond election were successful for a certain amount and if the Commission were able to find other sources of revenue would those bonds have to be issued. Mr. Nordin said the bonds would not have to be issued. Chairman Fleck asked that if that could be noted in the bond language. Town Attorney Farrell said no that the bond language was strictly controlled but the publicity that was independently done outside of the Town could. Chairman Fleck pointed out that in the Commission's effort to try and develop partnerships with the School District, the YMCA, or the Boys and Girls Club they had found they were all moving targets as the different organizations did not have their plans in place and neither did the Commission. He asked if it would useful to go to the community and ask the public if they wanted an aquatic center. Then provide the cost information based upon if there were any other funding sources available for the project but also explain that other funding sources were being sought to minimize the cost to the public. He asked if that was too broad of a question to pose. Councilman Kavanagh stated that the surveyors must be careful with any suggestions that would bias those surveyed by proposing that there could be other ways to pay for the project. Otherwise, they might effect the L. survey results. He said it could be alluded to in the beginning that some projects might be partially funded by other sources. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 16 of 19 Chairman Fleck indicated that was why the Commission had come up with these costs and but did not think that was what the Town would have to be pay. Councilwoman Fraverd said $20 million dollars was a scary sum of money. No matter how it was phrased to the public, she felt it would be difficult to overcome. She pointed out that with the Council looking at implementing impact fees perhaps the money raised could help with some of these projects and then the Commission would no longer need$20 million dollars. She knew that the Commission had a very ambitious plan and she was not sure that she was in line with it. She agreed that there was a need for another joint meeting to sort some of that out. Vice Mayor Hutcheson said she saw the value of getting together to discuss this plan. She also wanted some answers on what the Commission had talked to the School Board about after they had a chance to meet. She did not want to continue to discuss those things that the School District said there was no possibility of accomplishing. She wanted some reality brought to the next joint meeting. She did not know how the Commission would be able to provide that information if the Commission did not talk with the school board in a joint session of their own. Mr. Nordin suggested two ideas. Someone could be designated to meeting with the school representative and report back at the next joint. Or a school representative, such as President Dickey, could come and talk to the Council and Commission at their joint meeting. Mayor Morgan pointed out that President Dickey could not speak for the whole Board just as there was no one person who could speak for the Council or the Commission and Mr. Nordin agreed. Chairman Fleck asked if there was a need for someone to speak for the Council or just report back. Mayor Morgan clarified her statement by asking if the Commission had, without having a total attendance by the Commission, someone who could go and say I speak for the Commission and whatever my decision is will be fine with everyone else. Mr. Farrell indicated there was no one person that could talk for the Commission. Mayor Morgan said that was her point. Councilman Kavanagh asked if it were possible for the Town Manager and the Parks and Recreation Chairman to meet next week with the head of the School Board. Explain the questions that the Council and the Commission had and ask if it could be placed on the School Board agenda for discussion to determine their feelings on the ik "wish list projects". He thought the School Board might be able to provide their thoughts on the projects by the lbw next joint Council/Commission session. Chairman Fleck said he was confused. It sounded like the Council and the Commission were trying to control the flow of information through the press to the public and they were skirting the issue. He said whether they meet as individuals or meet as a commission in a joint session with the Council and he felt it should be a public hearing process. He asked if the Commission couldn't meet with the School Board, with a member or any number of the Council participates. He asked what would be different in that scenario than if the School Board itself met to discuss these same issues. It would be a public hearing and would be reported on. Vice Mayor Hutcheson did not think the discussion could be placed on their agenda in time for a response for the Council's second meeting in September. Chairman Fleck wanted to clear up that it was news to him that the School Board was not aware of the Commission's project plans. He had thought that plans had been progressing with the school administration because of the various meetings between the two and that everyone was in agreement in theory on these ideas. Mayor Morgan noted that the Board of Education had not met to vote on the plan. She said some of the board members had read about some of these projects in the paper. She reiterated that by the Commission meeting with school administration representatives, it did not have the same effect as meeting with the governing source, the Board of Education. Councilwoman Ralphe said it had come to her attention that there was a proposed trail across the state land in the plan and that there were recreational facilities at the school with lights included in the plan. She noted there were people who were interested in preserving that land in the community. These people have asked that the Council and the Indian Community draw up a management plan for that entire area for preservation purposes. She said small projects by various organizations could not start doing things here and there that would not fit in with the overall management plan. She expressed that everyone needed to aware of the whole plan. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 l7 of 19 Chairman Fleck repeated that the plan was not a proposal. He said these were ideas under consideration and that was all they had been. He said that the Parks and Recreation Commission was not proposing anything yet and these were items under discussion and that was all they were. Councilman Kavanagh said his suggestion that the Parks and Recreation Commission Chairman and the Town Manager talk directly with the Chairperson of the School Board with regard to the three school items, was not made with the intent to stifle public discussion of Parks and Recreation in a joint meeting. He was basing his request on the fact that these were potential things that the Council and Commission would be discussing and that the Council would be deciding whether or not to accept or reject at the September meeting. He said it would be senseless to consider projects at the September meeting that the School Board had ruled out. So he hoped that by communicating with them within the next week or so,that the School Board would have had the opportunity to put it on their agenda. He wanted the School Board to be able to discuss it between now and the tentatively scheduled Council/Commission joint meeting in September and then have the Parks and Recreation Chairman and Town Manager come back to the Council and relate which projects would be OK. Then the Council would decide of the remaining projects which ones the Council wanted to include in the plan. He did not want any items on the list for discussion at the September meeting that the School Board said was a definite no. Vice Mayor Hutcheson alluded to the fact it might be better not to set a definite time for the next joint Council/Commission meeting. She suggested that everyone might be overly ambitious. She posed that when the School Board first considers the projects, they might need more than just one meeting to make their decision. She said they might need time to complete a study of their own or to do some research. Mayor Morgan said the first step would be to have the discussion held by the School Board on this project list and find out which items they could agree to. Commissioner Williams asked that the tentative date be kept as it could always be moved back. Councilman Kavanagh said the joint meeting could still be held on September 21 and the Council could make their own decision, which could be changed to reflect items that the School District needed to remove. Commissioner Williams said it would be very valuable for the Commission to meet with the School Board in a joint meeting as a Commission. Councilman McNeill said before that meeting occurred it would be useful to have Paul, Michael and Maria or Jim get together to sharpen those issues and then when it was put on the Commission's joint meeting with the School Board it could be reviewed. Councilman Kavanagh said he wanted to tentatively keep the next joint meeting scheduled for that second Council meeting. The idea of indefinitely suspending the Council and Commission joint meeting again troubled him. He said staff would have a better idea as to if the September joint meeting date could be kept after Paul, Michael and/or Maria and Jim met to discuss the plan. Town Attorney Bill Farrell stated that the Commission needed to understand that there were a large number of other issues going on statewide and in the community that and for various reasons the School Board might not want to discuss this plan with the Commission or the Council. He said they should not feel that was a rejection of the capital plan. He explained that there were dynamics going on that had nothing to do with the love of Parks and Recreation or the work of the Commission. He noted that there was a finite amount of state money available, which would be effected by the voters going to the polls in November. Some of the issues were: a major school issue, litigation over school development fees, negotiation on the purchase of State Land, and the litigation going on over the condemnation of the McDowell Mountains. He said there were lots of issues that he would like to clarify for the Commission but he was not going to because it was not within their purview. He suggested that the School Board might say they would rather meet with the Mayor and Council to talk about what they wanted to do. If the School Board were to say they did not want to do anything until after they see what happens to the proposed sales tax increase at the statewide level,the Commission should not take that as a rejection. He repeated there was a full plate of agenda issues at both the School Board and the Council level. He said he would be surprised if the Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 18 of 19 Commission would be able to get an answer from the School Board by September 21. He asked that the Commission be patient with everyone and ask more open-ended questions. Chairman Fleck acknowledged the Commission was aware of the other issues and challenges but stated they had to rely upon communication with other community organizations as to what the Commission should or should not be discussing. Councilman Kavanagh asked that the tentative joint meeting date be kept with the option open that it could be changed at the discretion of the Town Manager and Parks and Recreation Commission Chairman who would be the liaisons with the School Board. Mr. Nordin said that would be fine. AGENDA ITEM#6—ADJOURNMENT. Councilwoman Ralphe MOVED to adjourn the meeting. Vice Mayor Hutcheson SECONDED the motion, which CARRIED unanimously. Mayor Morgan adjourned the meeting at 9:39 p.m. TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILL By Sharon Morgan,May ATTEST: Cassie B.Hansen Director of Administration/Town Clerk F PREPARED BY: Bev Bender,Executive Assistant CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Special Session Meeting held by the Town Council of Fountain Hills on the 15t day of August 2000. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. DATED this 14th day of August 2000. 4:5 ILA_ Cassie B. Hansen Director of Administration/Town Clerk L. Town Council Special Joint Session\ With the Parks&Recreation Commission 8/1/00 19 of 19