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HomeMy WebLinkAbout2003.1113.TCSM.Minutes Meeting of 2003-11-13 Joy Session with Planning and Zoning TOWN OF FOUNTAIN FILLS MINUTES OF THE SPECIAL JOINT SESSION OF THE FOUNTAIN HILLS TOWN COUNCIL AND PLANNING & ZONING COMMISSION NOVEMBER 13, 2003 Mayor Nichols called the meeting to order at 5:00 p.m. Mayor Nichols welcomed everyone to the meeting. He stated the purpose of this meeting was to discuss the Cut and Fill Ordinance that both the Town Council and P & Z Commission discussed and voted upon. ROLL CALL — Present for roll call were the following members of the Fountain Hills Town Council: Mayor Wally Nichols, Councilmembers Susan Ralphe, Lessa Stevens, Kathleen Nicola, Michael Archambault, and John Kavanagh. Absent was Vice-Mayor Rick Melendez. The following members of the Planning and Zoning Commission were also present at the meeting: Chairman Michael Downes, Vice-Chairman William O'Brien, Commissioners Jerry Caldwell,Wayne Tall,Dennis Brown, Avril Forest, and Tony Woodrel. Others were also present: Town Attorney Andrew McGuire, Town Manager Tim Pickering, Director of Public Works Tom Ward, Town Engineer Randy Harrel, Planners Denise Lacey and Dana Burkhardt, and Janice Baxter, Administrative Assistant. Bob Burns, Fountain Hills Times newspaper, and Edwin Kehe, Town of Fountain Hills' resident. Town Manager Tim Pickering thanked everyone for attending the meeting. He added that this was the first time since he had been Town Manager that the Town Council and the Planning and Zoning Commission had met in a joint session. Town Manager Pickering emphasized that the Cut anal Fill Ordinance which the Town Council and Planning and Zoning both dealt with, had been a controversial issue over the years and that this meeting was established to discuss the current cut and fill waiver policies and procedures, and to give some input into how it was working to give guidance to staff on this issue. Town Manager Pickering ioatiroduced Dana Burkhardt as the presenter and thanked Tom Ward for his guidance with ase presentation. AGENDA ITEM#1 Dana Burkhardt also welcomed everyone to the meeting. He stated that the Town Council directed staff to review; the current cut and fill waiver policies and procedures and added that a joint study lion with the Planning and Zoning Commission had been requested to discuss the fisgs. He did not think that either the Commission or the Town Council was requestprg; on tonight. Planning AcZoning Commission Meeting Minutes November 13, 2003 Page 1 of 6 Mr. Burkhardt explained that one of the most significant issues identified was the basement cuts and their depths. Mr. Burkhardt added that a review of other hillside communities and their cut and fill policies and procedures were reviewed. He added that the findings were outlined in the handout from staff. Mr. Burkhardt pointed out the three popular mechanisms identified. He continued that the number one mechanism had been the evaluating body reviews of the grading plans for conformance to maximum terraced wall design, maximum slope regulations, and that it did not exceed the maximum building height as measured from natural grade. Mr. Burkhardt continued that this had been the least restrictive of the three mechanisms and the Crestview Subdivision met this standard. Mr. Burkhardt continued to say that number two had maximum cut and fill tolerances as measured from natural grade. He added that a maximum eight-foot cut excluding basements, and pools with exterior finished grade, are returned to the natural elevation. The limits on fills were three feet from natural grade. Mr. Burkhardt added that this had been the most widely accepted and the least restrictive. He confirmed that the Town of Fountain Hills currently used this guideline. Mr. Burkhardt continued that the number three mechanisms had hillside developments reviewed and approved on a case-by-case basis. He added that there were established general guidelines sensitive to the natural topography of the site. He continued that this would give the appearance that the house was set into the hillside, minimize excessive grading disturbance, and reduce the need for exposed retaining walls. Mr. Burkhardt referenced a power point presentation and gave a brief overall review of the staff's report. He reiterated staff recommendation, which suggested not making substantial changes to the zoning ordinance. Mr. Burkhardt explained that existing and approved development agreements would not be required to develop under a more restrictive or modified ordinance. Mr. Burkhardt recommended Council and the Commission define the criteria on cut and fill waivers for single-family homes. Mr. Burkhardt determined that the problem seemed to be the maximum depth tolerance for unexposed cuts, such as basement cut waivers. He added that exposed cuts should be reviewed on a case-by-case submittal, and should be discouraged. He added that a cut and fill waiver and excessive fill allowed more exposure of a building above grade and was strongly discouraged. Mr. Burkhardt suggested that if the Council and Commission made changes that were more restrictive, they would possibly be made under "Design Guidelines". He added submittals would be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Councilman Archambault asked if a formula or calculation could be created, permitting a basement based on the amount of excavating that would be pulled out, with an exception thr such as a swimming pool. Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes November 13, 2003 Page 2 of 6 Mr. Burkhardt answered that typically civil engineers would provide a balance or a cut and fill calculation called balance on the plans. He added that this formula would note how many cubic yards of export or import would be needed. Discussion ensued relative to the amount of fill to be pulled out of the footprint. It was suggested that the height of filling would be measured from natural grade. Dana Burkhardt concurred that was a good point and could be a criterion in reviewing waivers. He continued that the applicant would not exceed a certain amount of yardage of excavation. Mr. Burkhardt mentioned that the excavation contractors in the Fountain Hills area, were in contact with each other to help transfer fill within Fountain Hills where it was needed. Commissioner O'Brien asked what exactly the problems were with the current ordinance. Tom Ward stated that staff was looking at an excessive amount of requests for cut and fill. He added that staff was directed to review the ordinance and see if any changes could be made to our current ordinance. Chairman Downes remarked that Council members had questions on approvals made by the Commission, and Council had requested a letter of justification from a representative for the Planning and Zoning Commission. Chairman Downes added that he hoped this discussion would bring forth a more defined criteria of the maximums for cut and fill. He added then Town Council, Planning and Zoning Commission would understand the P & Z approvals. Commissioner Forest thought that part of the meeting was also to differentiate between cut and fill. She added that esthetically they were different and it made sense to have one maximum for both standards. Commissioner Forest continued that cuts were not as intrusive, such as a basement, as fill could be very distasteful. Councilman Brown explained that recently a case that the Commission approved, then Town Council denied and Council brought it back later and then approved. Planning and Zoning had approved every cut and fill because they had been tastefully done and were not an ugly fill. Commissioner Brown agreed that fill was what made a project ugly. Councilman Brown reiterated he believed the process was working. He continued that 10' cut was hard to keep up, and a 12' cut would be easier to work with. He stated that the process seemed to be working, including the process of a requiring a request for a cut and fill. He added that Town Council and Commissioners had agreed on each request except one. Councilman Kavanagh expressed that Council could not give the Commission particular requirements for cut and fills. He continued to say that the Council relied on the Commission and their comments, common sense, and guidance. Councilman Kavanagh mentioned that Fountain Hills was not totally flat land and contained a lot of rock. Commissioner Woodrel commented that there would be a reduction in disturbance by building down. Commissioner Caldwell pointed out that the Commission had looked at the visual impact of each case and staff should be commended for their contribution. Commissioner Caldwell continued that he had talked to people in FireRock, Eagle Mountain and they expressed concern about the retaining walls, their appearance, and Planning&Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes November 13, 2003 Page 3 of 6 how they were built with the excess cut. He felt that cut and fill determinations would be Lty on an individual case. Commissioner O'Brien determined that the Ordinance was working the way it should. He continued to say that owners had to get approval if they were going over a certain amount of disturbance and he would hate to see what some homes would look like if this approval process were not in place. Councilwoman Stevens asked Andrew McGuire, Town Attorney, how long the waiver process had been in place. Mr. McGuire answered for at least 6 or 7 years. She continued that another aspect to consider was the surrounding neighbors and the time element for the digging to be completed. Councilwoman Stevens added her concern regarding the inconvenience to the surrounding neighbors. Councilman Archambault commented that Adero Canyon had not been platted and shared his concern regarding an ordinance revision. He continued that an ordinance stating a less restricted cut and fill policy would allow developers to dig as deep as they wanted and the result would be developers placing as many houses as possible on their property. Councilwoman Stevens asked Mr. McGuire if the Ordinance were made less restrictive, how that would impact a new development. She pointed out an example such as changing unlimited cuts under the footprint of the house, and asked if that would need approval. Mr. McGuire pointed out that a change would not be necessarily a good idea for future developments or previously signed Building Development Agreements. Councilman Kavanagh suggested a hand count of the members regarding the approval of invisible cuts. After the vote, he concurred that the majority did not have a problem with invisible cuts proceeding. Councilman Kavanagh suggested that staff should possibly put together a proposal to Council to enact this change. Councilwoman Nicola asked Mr. McGuire if there were a change in the Ordinance would a grandfather clause cover the existing agreements. Mr. McGuire commented that anything could be grandfathered in, but the unintended consequence was a bigger concern. Councilwoman Stevens requested clarification of the previous vote on the invisible cut. Mr. Kavanagh answered that the recommendation would be from staff, not to apply the restriction to invisible cuts. Mr. Burkhardt answered that a basement ordinance or provision would have detailed and lengthy verbiage that would cover returning to the natural grade. Mr. Burkhardt stressed that it would be a lesser requirement and Mr. McGuire would not have a problem with this change. He added an alternative would be to design criteria under the discretionary waiver approval and he encouraged a combination of both. Commissioner O'Brien questioned making a change at this time. Commissioner Tall mentioned that people in the Town did not like fills. He asked if there was a way to write an amendment to the ordinance, and encourage stair stepping instead of leveling. Mr. Burkhardt answered that that would come under the design Planning &Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes November 13, 2003 Page 4 of 6 guidelines. Commissioner Woodrel added that the owners would be encouraged to submit plans that met the Town regulations and they could by-pass the request for a waiver. Councilman Kavanagh stated that Council and the Commission agreed that invisible cuts were not a problem and that staff should be up front with this information. Commissioner Caldwell suggested that builders, real estate agents, and property owners should be very careful at how they present their property when selling. Commissioner Tall expressed that to make our town look better, we needed to encourage projects that incorporated less fill and that would eliminate excessive retaining walls. Commissioner Woodrel asked if we had a legal right to deny a builder an approval for a basement. He added that eventually our cut and fill ordinance and disturbances would be legally challenged. Councilwoman Stevens remarked that in response to Commissioner Tall, the only way to change the appearance of fills would be to lower the amount of fill allowed. She added that an ordinance would have to be more constricted and in lieu of what attorney McGuire said, that would be difficult to do considering the upcoming agreements. Councilwoman Stevens suggested that the Ordinance be changed to accommodate the owners. She added that then owners would not wonder if their plans were going to be approved. filiw Mayor Nichols stated that since the Commission had approved all previous cut and fill waivers, maybe the ordinance should be changed to permit hidden basements, so Council would not have to decide which waivers get approved. Councilwoman Stevens expressed that changing the ordinance would require a review and public comments. She added that would tell if residents really cared about this issue. Commissioner O'Brien requested feedback from the Fire Department regarding approval of basements. Dana Burkhardt clarified that the Fire Department had fire codes in place and reviewed the plans before approval was given. He added that there are various building codes and requirements in place for basements. Commissioner Woodrel commented that true basements were built on flat land, and staff would not be seeing a typical basement. Chairman Downes clarified that smoke detectors and fire sprinklers were required when building a basement. Chairman Downes defended that the Commission had been approving all cuts and fills not detected by neighbors and surrounding areas. He continued that when looking at cut and fills, the option of a waiver approval had been working very well. Commissioner Stevens asked attendees under what circumstances would a cut under a house not be approved. She continued that she questioned the waiver process and the cost involved. L Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes November 13, 2003 Page 5 of 6 Commissioner Woodrel suggested that staff establish verbiage outlining the process of an outrageous plan request. He continued if this should happen, staff would ask for approval from Council and the Commission. Mr. Burkhardt replied that that could be done. Mr. Burkhardt continued that when reviewing a plan on a discretionary basis; which gives staff more leverage. He added that staff would be looking at ways to avoid the waiver process all together on buried basements. Mr. Burkhardt stated that staff would draft an extensive version of the definition of a buried basement. Councilwoman Stevens suggested that a total cut and fill calculation be a requirement under the waiver process. Mayor Nichols recapped the direction given to staff from Town Council and the Planning and Zoning Commission that an amendment adding a provision for a Basement Ordinance would come before the Planning and Zoning Commission with a recommendation to Council for approval. - Chairman Downes supported staff going forth with an amendment to the Ordinance. Tom Ward acknowledged that staff would like to thank all the members for coming forth and giving their time to voice their opinions on this matter. Mr. Ward added that staff also had been frustrated with the amount of cases and appreciated the input. He acknowledged that the ordinances were in place to keep our Town beautiful and to minimize the amount of disturbance created, which will help keep property values in place. #2 ADJOURNMENT Mayor Nichols adjourned the meeting at 6:10 p.m. TOWN•OF I?OUNTAJN'HILLS Michael Downes, Chairman Planning and Zoning Commission ATTEST AND PREPARED BY: Janice E. Baxter, Administrative Assistant Planning and Zoning CERTIFICATION I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of the Special Joint Session held between the Town Council of Fountain Hills and the Planning and Zoning Commission held on the 13th day of November 2003. I further certify that the meeting was duly called and that a quorum was present. Dated this 21st day of November 2003, • J nice Baxter, Administrative Assistant Planning & Zoning Commission Meeting Minutes November 13, 2003 Page 6 of 6