HomeMy WebLinkAbout2022.0920.TCWS.MinutesTOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS
MINUTES OF THE WORK SESSION
OF THE FOUNTAIN HILLS TOWN COUNCIL
SEPTEMBER 20, 2022
1. CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Dickey called the Work Session of the Fountain Hills Town Council held on
September 20, 2022, to order at 7:48 p.m.
2. ROLL CALL
Members Present: Mayor Ginny Dickey: Vice Mayor Gerry Friedel; Councilmember
David Spelich; Councilmember Sharron Grzybowski; Councilmember Alan Magazine;
Councilmember Peggy McMahon; Councilmember Mike Schamow
Members Absent: None
Staff Present- Town Manager Grady E. Miller; Town Attorney Aaron D. Arnson; Town
Clerk Linda Mendenhall
Audience: Two members of the public were present.
3. REGULAR AGENDA
A. DISCUSSION AND POSSIBLE DIRECTION: Allana Buick and Bers will be
presenting its Preliminary Report related to water/moisture intrusion issues at the
Community Center.
Eugene Buick, Allana Buick and Bers provided an overview of the water/moisture
intrusion issues at the Community Center and answered councils' questions.
4. ADJOURNMENT
Having no further business, Mayor Dickey adjourned the meeting.
The Work Session of the Fountain Hills Town Council, held on September 20, 2022,
adjourned at 8:48 p.m.
ATTE AND PREPARED BY:
Linda G. I endenhall, T n Clerk
TOWN OF FOUNTAIN HILLS
CERTIFICATION
I hereby certify that the foregoing minutes are a true and correct copy of the minutes of
the Work Session held by the Town Council of Fountain Hills in the Town Hall Council
Chambers on the 2091 day of September 2022. I further certify that the meeting was duly
called and that a quorum was present.
October 022
nda G. Mendenhall, Town Clerk
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SEPTEMBER 20, 2022 WORK SESSION
Post -Production File
Town of Fountain Hills
September 20, 2022 Work Session
Transcription Provided By:
eScribers, L.L.C.
Transcription is provided in order to facilitate communication accessibility and may not
be a totally verbatim record of the proceedings.
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SEPTEMBER 20, 2022 WORK SESSION
MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you. We'll call this special work session to order and I don't
think we need a roll call right now and we'll just get going. Thank you.
MILLER: Thank you, Mayor and Council. We're before you tonight with a presentation
from a firm that was engaged to help us try to identify the sources of some of the issues
that we've been having with water intrusion in the community center. Tonight you're
going to see the results of some of their testing and then also they're going to share with
us their, what would be called near -term and longer term kind of solutions to try to
address the issues.
I'm going to turn it over to our public works director; he has a few more words and then
he's going to introduce our presenter tonight who is Gene --
WELDY: Eugene Allana (sic).
MILLER: Thank you. With that I'll turn it over to you.
UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's late.
WELDY: Eugene Buick. Excuse me. That's right. It's Allana Buick and Bers is the
f rm.
Thank you, Grady. Madam Mayor, Vice Mayor, Councilmembers. Over the last several
months the town manager, myself and the facility supervisor has had an opportunity to
have numerous discussions and do what we could to make immediate and/or temporary
changes to the deficiencies at the community center and just a little bit of history lesson
in regard to some of the comments that we heard tonight.
I am fortunate enough to have spent almost 16 years in this organization. The first
several of thosc in the engineering department and sat in on several meetings with the
only other two public works directors that have held the position, in regard to discussing
the town's buildings. And we have three of them here that are just under 90,000 square
feet and roughly about 20 years old. There was a considerable amount of discussion
related to the community center in regard to the moisture barrier that may or may not
have been installed as part of the original construction of that building. Throughout the
years carpeting and flooring repairs all addressed that issue in regard to moisture coming
up from the slab. In fact, prior to us engaging the mayor and council for the most recent
renovations for that facility, the town manager, myself and the facilities manager each
looked at professional opinions on the type of adhesive that would be required to combat
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and help support the flooring. Not only the ceramic but the carpeting and luxury vinyl
tile again related to what we knew and what we had been told in the reports that we had
read.
It is very, very difficult to explain to you how frustrated and angered and surprised we
were that as construction was underway, to make that building refreshed and a better
place for the community to enjoy, when it started raining water was coming in from
places that we could not imagine. From not only the doors and the windows, but the
walls. And I will simply state this clearly, 1 will not assign blame for those deficiencies
once I knew about it to anybody else. I will also state that immediately when we
recognized these issues we worked with the town manager and other professionals to
address what we could at that time with immediate action.
After that we began to search. And when I say we, primarily myself, trying to see if we
had a contract that was existing with a firm, with expertise that would be able to provide
some sort of guidance. I basically exhausted what we had in regard to existing contracts
and again, to reduce the time necessary the facility supervisor noted that at his previous
employment there was a firm that specialized in this very thing.
I didn't immediately agree to that. We did have conversation. I had conversation with
the town manager, did a little bit of research and discovered in fact this firm is qualified
for exactly the challenges that were facing in regard to the construction deficiencies.
That firm is going to be giving you, or at least as representative from there, is going to be
giving you an update of their findings tonight. But there are a couple of things prior to
my introduction to him, and I'll use his correct last name this time.
That immediately after we were made aware, we began to take steps to seal areas. One of
the in fact, unused doors for one of the classrooms, we used a popular television product
that you can spray on a screen door anything else and it stops it from leaking and you can
turn it into a boat. I will say that their tape and their spray minimized the intrusion of
water through that door. However, ponding on the west side of the building still allows it
to enter through there. That one is somewhat of a challenge. We also, during
construction, the facility supervisor brought in a door specialty company to work on,
adjust, and/or replace the thresholds. As part of that project we did know that water was
running in the main front door and we took action and addressed that as part of that
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project but with a separate funding mechanism to put new concrete in there and a new
drainage system to move that water away.
Again, we have not just sat around and waited for somebody to do something. We have
actually been doing something all along and I'd like to remind and I know the council is
aware of this. But we have one facilities manager and we have one plant mechanic, is
what I refer to him as. He's a facilities maintenance guy and he takes care of all three of
these buildings and often times all you'll see of this individual are his feet or from his
knees down, because he's standing on a ladder in one of the ceilings in one of our
buildings addressing some of the concerns.
Some of the concerns that we have are the rain gutters at the community center that come
down through the walls. They're referred to as a no hub system. Town staff, along with
the support of contractors has been addressing those no hubs. We also -- that individual,
Paul is his name, noted that while he was in several of the ceilings he discovered what he
referred to as turkey pans. Who are aluminum pans that the previous facilities and plant
mechanic put in areas of, not only town hall, but the community center because there was
a leak that they simply could not identify its origin. Either coming from condensing
pipes or drainage structures or roof leaks. Each one of those that have ben discovered
created a stained tile. To eliminate that, they put in this drain pan and while they
continue to work towards finding that leak, they simply dumped the drain pan. As repairs
have been made by staff and contractors some of this piping has been moved. As a result
of that, there is a leak a little bit further down the line and that happens and what that
does is it creates an additional stained tile.
We continue to remove and replace the tiles and take other measures, including most
recently, at the direction of the town manager, securing two very large humidifiers. And
I'd like to report that on average they're pulling in about three gallons of water every four
hours apiece. The town manager had some concerns in regard to the HVAC system. We
have done a back check on that to determine whether or not anything was changed or
manipulated by our new contractor. We find no evidence of that.
So an explanation, if I could offer it, is that as of recent the humidity has been higher all
the way around. So we recognize and understand the challenges that we are facing. The
town manager, myself, and Rachael, who's not here tonight, the community services
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director and the facilities manager had we known about all of the other construction
deficiencies we would not have come to the council with just carpet and other flooring
and paint and furnishings. We would have put together a much, much larger project.
Now, what were going to do is work, not only with this professional firm, but we are
working to secure another specialty firm to deal with what's described as organic matter.
In relation to that, the stuff that was found on the sheetrock as it was opened for this
assessment, that sheetrock was disposed of While we do not have the individual here
that helped to repair and do some treatment of that, we do know that some of it in regard
to the organic matter was either disposed of or sprayed with bleach and water at that time.
In order to get an assessment of that, we need a firm and there are lots of firms out there
that are eager to run out here and provide their services but very similar to the forensic
architectural assessment we need a specialty firm that primarily does their assessments on
large commercial buildings with a relatively large influx of residents, people that use it
primarily six or seven days a week.
With that said, if you have any questions for me related to the rambling that I just did, I
will certainly do my best to answer them and then I will introduce the professional
engineer.
SPELICH: Thank you, Mayor. 1 think what should be at the very front of all of this, and
I can't even believe I'm saying this, because I'm so against studies or spending money on
any of this stuff. We need to get someone in there, some firm in there that can
immediately come and test the air quality and everything else. We have full-time
employees that are in that building breathing all this stuff. We also have seniors who
could be immune compromised and have underlying medical conditions that could be
exacerbated by attending anything in the community center. So I hope part of this plan is
to immediately have an air quality test done to make sure, because I personally am
speaking from experience, I had a leak in my home and black mold was involved. It is
very serious, very serious. And it grows like crazy. So I think at the very front of this,
before we go onto -- and believe me, I've got plenty to say about this report and
everything. But I believe that before we get rolling we need a firm to come in there and
test the air quality to give the employees of the building assurance that they're not going
to get sick or breathe in things that could be harmful and more importantly the residents,
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especially seniors who are going in there. Because I was in there, it smells horrible and
I'm worried.
WELDY: Madam Mayor, Councilmember, we absolutely agree. We are in the process
of procuring said specialty company. Again, we want them to be vetted and be able to
meet the needs that we have and that will follow through with an architectural firm that is
a specialist in this type of construction deficiency as well.
FRIEDEL: Justin, I'm not an engineer, but can those no hubs be sealed off and have that
water rerouted to the outside of that building? I think that this is a major part of our
problem with this building. 1 don't know what that would cost, but I'm just asking the
question, because if that water is running down the inside of our building and we have
any kind of leaks in there -- so that's the first comment I want to make. And this just
started -- don't we get rain every year? Is this just something we're just now noticing? I
mean what happened five years ago or seven years ago? So again, I'm not asking for an
answer, but I'm just throwing it out there because this is -- this didn't just happen
overnight. And so we cut out sheetrock. What about insulation? What about the
framing? Was any of that compromised? Did we treat any of that before we put
sheetrock back on the wall? I don't know the answer to that. And then 1 had air test
written down on my list of things here as well, too. So I know you're on top of that, but
those other ones, I don't know if we have answers for that or if that's part of our proposal
or what. But I'm thinking that those no hubs are a problem; and maybe I'm wrong.
WELDY: Madam Mayor, Vice Mayor, rerouting the roof drains is going to be very
expensive because they currently enter the building at numerous locations and that is
because of the architecture of the building. It's a flat top. In order to push that water off
to one side or the other, you have to build that up and create that flow. That is certainly a
challenge. There are systems, modern systems that function and with the proper
maintenance last for years and years. And not all of these no hubs and these roof drains
are failing, just some of them at some locations. And keep in mind that again, the single
individual we have along with the support of some contractors does a pretty good job of
keeping the majority of this stuff operating without any issue.
In regard to the latter part of your statement, most likely and I cannot speak for the
previous facility supervisors, when there was rain and we discovered this after a
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nighttime, the water flowed freely, very, very thinly out into areas near the middle of the
floor. And if you didn't see the path from it in the construction dust, you would have
thought it would have originated in the center of the floor.
Some of their conclusions in regard to the vapor barrier were likely a result of that. The
rain -- when it rains, it enters and travels either underneath or through the flooring to the
lowest point on the on grade slab. The reason we noticed it is because there was no
flooring and no trims and so you could clearly see the path that it had taken after and
during -- or during and after the event.
MAYOR DICKEY: Grady?
MILLER: Mayor, Council. Very good points and comments and definitely we are as the
public works director indicated, we are looking at companies that will help us identify if
this is an issue, they'll be doing testing.
But what I'd like to do, we're speculating up here at dais before we've even had the
presentation. So I'm going to have the -- Gene come up and give his presentation. He
has some cutouts showing photographs of what they did and what they've observed. And
so he will be able to answer, 1 think, your questions Vice Mayor that you had about
insulation and drywall and what they saw.
WELDY: With that said, Madam Mayor, I would like to introduce the professional
engineer from Buick and Bers. His name is Eugene Buick and he is going to do tonight's
presentation.
MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you.
BUICK: Good evening, Mayor, Vice Mayor, Councilmen, Grady.
My name is Gene Buick. I'm with Allana Buick and Bers. We are a national firm that
specializes in the diagnosis and repair of buildings that have similar problems such as
yours.
Tonight, I will review our findings and be happy to answer any questions.
So here's you community center. You have cement block walls. You have metal
framing. You have a synthetic stucco finish and of course the windows. The storefront
windows and the punch windows as well.
And portion of the building is surrounded by concrete hardscape. And the other is
softscape. So here's an overall view. And also you have your roof which is a firm roof
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Building was built approximately 2001 and it's about 25,000 square feet. And as
referenced earlier here, there was an interior remodel around October 2021.
So we were contacted by the Town of Fountain Hills in February of 2022. A contract
was issued to us in March of 2022 and immediately thereafter we prepared a leak testing
protocol. You know, when we were called out to study this, typically what we'll do is
well do a leak testing protocol which test windows, test concrete. We're trying to
diagnose what the issues are and what they could be and is it one issue, is it two issues, is
it three issues.
On May 24th and May 25th we surveyed the community center and performed visual
observations, water testing, and some limited destructive testing through the assistance of
a contractor. And then we issued a report in June of 2022.
So here's some overall photos. I think the one thing that wasn't mentioned. If you look
on the left, there's this sort of metallic tongue that's sticking out. That's a roof drain
outlet. And I guess recently, within the last year or so there's actually some
improvements made on the site where these wells were installed with drains to direct
excessive amount of moisture buildup around the building at this location to direct it into
the storm drain.
We also have photos of storefront windows and concrete. Here's some more overall
views. And most of these areas are experiencing leakage as a result of both window
issues, door issues, and then issues with the exterior concrete slab and the hardscape.
So here's a snapshot of the testing locations. We tested over 20 locations. We water
tested 24 and all 24 leaked. So we batted 1,000, so they say.
With the windows, which we'll talk in -- which I'll describe. So the windows are leaking,
but why are they leaking? And what were going to do is go into what all the failed
components are.
So with the storefront windows, big picture obviously they're failing to manage the water.
The water is entering into the building. You have vertical mullions that aren't resting on
sill cans. You have a lack of sill cans. The window product lacked weep provisions. We
have window mullions, so basically parts and pieces of this window is at least dry. There
isn't any sealant to help resist water from coming in. All you have are these rubber
gaskets that go around the window.
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You also have gaskets that either shrunk or short. We also see disported sealants. That's
also another path for moisture intrusion. We do see some IGU failures. So if you've ever
seen in your own home where there's a little fogging or something of your glass, that's an
IGU failure. It's two pieces of glass with a seal and from time to time those do fail.
But the other thing that's common around the windows, you have hardscape or slabs that
are reverse sloped. So not only do you have the window issues, it's compounded by the
fact that you have water resting against the window. So you have sort of this dam or pool
of water that's building up.
So typically what we did was, we had our spray rack and the spray rack what does it do?
It sprays water on the window to see, you know, if the window's leaking. Of course
through our testing and I'll show you some photos, we did see water come in. We didn't
use negative pressure. That's often times a second step and basically we had a static test
which -- you spray the window at about 24 PSI and we watched the inside and see what
happens.
So if you recall from chemistry class, we all had our litmus paper and it changes colors,
and that's what we use when we're testing to kind of give you a good photographic
evidence of moisture. And so what we have here is -- and this is probably after a minute
or so, water pouring in. And so water's pooling around the windows. They're also
pooling through the bottom of the windows.
We have frame intersections that are leaking. We could see there's just many areas that
are failing and allowing water in.
With the doors, we also tested the doors. Again, reverse slope, concrete hardscape.
Perimeter seals that are failing. There's no pan flashings. There's glazing pockets. The
glass is allowing water to come in where it's kissing the frame and we do see daylight at
the doorjamb assemblies. That's another opportunity for wind -driven rain to come in.
So here's our trusty level and you could see the blue arrow is denoting that there's reverse
slope. So if you have any moisture building up it then flows into the interior.
Here's the double door leak. We see voids and again, you could see this pool of water
that's flowing into the interior. And you could see how far it goes, right? It's just a river
that goes deep inside the building and I think part of that, again, is the slope of the slab
and the hardscape.
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As far as the wall cavities, part of our testing and observations was to understand is water
getting into the wall cavity. And so we could see here when some of the drywall was
removed, we see that there is moisture coming in and what I'm pointing out here to the
right, there are open seals, a lack of flashings, and voids where the door integrates with
the window wall assembly. So we have moisture intrusion into these areas.
And frankly, you wouldn't know that that was happening without removing the drywall.
No one goes in normally to remove drywall to look for leaks, but part of our scope is to
perform these biopsies and see if there is any damage and any moisture entering into the
cavity.
Here is some glazing leaks. More leaks through the thresholds.
As far as exterior observations there are portions of the slab, this is the structural slab that
extend beyond the footprint of the window. This slab and it's through shrinkage, a little
bit of curling. It sort of slopes back into the interior. And so what you have is a pooling
effect of water at the base of the window. So you have issues with seals and now we
have a pool of water building up against the window.
Here's a photo, we took our little ruler and noted that there were some openings in the
sealant. Again, another area for water to get in.
Here's some short gaskets. We also see pooling water adjacent to the doors and walls.
I'm going deep inside areas that are fairly protected. There's some damage to the gypsum
board. You could see that.
Again, we see a little bit of corrosion on the rusted track. And we see the water damage
from the presence of water.
Any questions?
MCMAHON: I have a question.
BUICK: Yeah.
MCMAHON: Is this all because you pulled the drywall and looked at it?
BUICK: Is this --
MCMAHON: All the pictures and stuff are based on --
BUICK: Correct. I mean --
MCMAHON: Okay.
BUICK: Yes, there was destructive testing to remove drywall so we could observe the
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condition of the interior. And part of this helps us develop an initial program for the
building repair. Of course, I mean, well get into the scope of repair but we have to
understand what the structure and the elements look like because you can't exclude these
areas. These would have to be part of a repair project. So we need to know what that
condition is.
MAYOR DICKEY: Council?
MAGAZINE: Yeah, just to follow-up on an earlier question. About three years ago we
had something like a 500-year storm. 1 mean it was really, really bad. Is it possible this
is just showing up now?
BUICK: The difficult part is a lot of these conditions are concealed. So you may not
necessarily see it manifest on the outside of the wall. And certainly I think it's gone for a
while, given the damage and the corrosion we see. You won't see corrosion
instantaneously over a one-year period necessarily. So I'm sure it's been some time that
it's been experiencing it. Certainly having a 500-year storm, doesn't help. It may
exacerbate the situation.
MAGAZINE: You showed photos with some ponding water. I assumed that happened
before?
BUICK: Sure.
MAYOR DICKEY: The other part that you mentioned was years ago, knowing that
there was something but it -- we thought it was coming from the middle. It's kind of like
what you were saying. Because I remember the discussion, I don't know, a long time
ago, right, with previous folks and that that's what they thought and they got the sealer
and did things that they could do. But it wasn't the root, I guess, is what you're saying.
BUICK: You know, this isn't the first time. You have a leak. You rely on certain
experts. They tell you, oh, the floor is leaking, and maybe it was. But sometimes not all
the issues are identified. And so now you're learning after you've remodeled it, you do
have these sloping issues. You have these window issues. And that happens.
MAYOR DICKEY: Well Mr. Watts had said, kind of mentioned the word implied. But
it sounds like -- I mean it sounds like you're saying exactly. Are you implying something
with this or are you saying it straight out?
BUICK: I'm saying straight out. There's --
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MAYOR DICKEY: I mean he—
BUICK: -- leak issues, there's water issues, and there's damage issues. That --
MAYOR DICKEY: You heard what he said, right? So I was trying to figure out what --
is there something that I'm missing that is beyond this report because it seems pretty
straightforward? Thanks.
BUICK: Well, what do we do? You have damage, you have leaky windows, you have
leaky doors. There's sort of two buckets here. What can we do today? And what is the
long-term plan for this building. So in terms of near -term solutions, and we've done this
on buildings, 20 years plus, 30 years plus. One method of reducing or minimizing or
eliminating the intrusion of water at the windows is to wet seal them. Wet sealing is an
alternative to replacing them in the immediate term. You apply a silicone sealant, UV
resistant, and you have to seal all the joinery. All the areas where the water can come in,
so you can stop that. So you don't have that pooling and flooding on the windows. So
that's one option.
Also let's repair the perimeter window sealant where the window meets the stucco walls.
We had a ruler we inserted between the stucco and the window, so there's some
delamination there that needs to be addressed. Let's inspect the door thresholds and fully
embed those in sealant. Usually, what we see that happens in the construction world,
someone puts a couple of beads of sealant and calls it a day. Well, you really have to
coat the underside of that threshold and set it in a full bed of sealant so water doesn't get
in-between the threshold and the slab.
Another option is coating the reverse slope sills. And I'll just put here an item number 8.
In addition to coating the reverse slope sills, before you even coat them, and provided
that the rebar has enough concrete cover, you could consider grinding those extensions
beyond the windows, so now it slopes positively away from the building. And that
certainly an option. You see grinding down on sidewalks when the tree branch -- the
roots lift up the sidewalk. So you could potentially grind that away. And then there's
also some targeted repairs where you could cut out and slice portions of the hardscape,
introduce a trench lane that then allows water to flow into the softscape and to nearby
drains. So there are some, I would say effective immediate near -term solutions that you
could implement to help reduce the amount of water that's entering into the building.
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FRIEDEL: I have a question.
BUICK: Sure.
MAYOR DICKEY: Yes.
FRIEDEL: That hard concrete that's sloped toward the building. Was there any evidence
that you saw of that actually settling down. Or was that just -- is that just the way it
was --
BUICK: 1 believe there was a survey done that maybe the building itself was -- was it the
building or the hardscape? The building itself was installed, I think, a little too low by
2/10s of a foot. So there was some construction issues. But I think some of this reverse
slope is actually a function of potentially of the concrete curling just a hair bit and pulling
back. One solution I had mentioned was this trench drain idea, and I just sort of
cartooned in a trench drain. So you see the slope. So if we can grind a little bit of the
curb, could we introduce a trench drain to help manage this water and then go into the
landscaping to nearby drain? I think it's an option to consider. Not cheap, but it's an
effective way of addressing some of the water that's building up against the building.
MAYOR DICKEY: Council?
MAGAZINE. Yeah. A question. Can we go back to that other, the slide just before
this?
BUICK: Sure.
MAGAZINE: If we were to undertake the near -term solutions, but then we have to go
full bore in another year, two, three, are we wasting a lot of money? Is a lot of this just
basically, pardon me, sticking the finger in the dyke until we do something permanent?
BUICK: So I mean that's always a concern. 1 mean the question you have to ask
yourself can we do something effective today to help reduce that moisture. Because we
all know you have to hire an architect. You have to hire the hygienist. You have to draw
the drawings. You have to go to permit and plan check. You have to bid it out. How
many years pass by? Two years? Three years? So I think, yeah, you will spend some
money doing these repairs. You have to evaluate the cost, maybe get a bid for this. I
understand what that is, but I don't think it's necessarily a waste. I think we jut need to
look at it more in a targeted fashion, is there a way to do something today to get you by
for the next three years.
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MAGAZINE: I guess I'm trying to make myself clear, because I don't really understand
it all. But get us by, okay. For two, three years. Three years comes along, do we lose
anything? I mean of all these things long-lasting or they have to be done over again?
Wet sealing of windows. If we've got to replace windows, wet sealing doesn't mean
anything.
BUICK: Well, sure it does. Today it does because you stopped the leak now.
MAGAZINE: Right.
BUICK: But you have -- it's a business decision. We deal with clients all the time.
Someone will wet seal it; someone will replace it. Replacing is a lot more expensive than
wet sealing. But in the study of these longer term solutions, yeah, you may end up
replacing the windows. And therefore you did consume some money to seal them
temporarily that you can't use.
MAYOR DICKEY: And to your point, some of this is a business decision because you
talk about what season is it and what's the use of the building and how much is the
building going to he sort of uninhabitable versus do you do something like this. So I
think it kind of goes into more than just the cost to what's the use of and would this be
done really, really quickly to address some of the things that Councilmember and Vice
Mayor had talked about health -wise. And is this something we want to do right away.
Grady?
MILLER: I was just going to say like the trench drain, I see that as being an overall
investment because I think it's going to be something that's going to have to be done
regardless. We're showing it's near -term because it's something that I understand we can
do and get started on it now. Longer term is the next 12 to 24 months after next fiscal
year. So trying to get this started here and trying to get it going is going to be an
investment, I think for the long-term.
BUICK: Let's talk about the long-term recommendations. So first part is to retain a
design firm experienced in the report of exterior envelopes. Get a local architect that's
familiar with the city, understands the needs. We really have to get this program
correctly. What's proposed right now is to think about the replacement of the window
and door assemblies with new. Install new waterproofing and sheet metal flashings
beneath the assemblies. There also have to be targeted repair of the exterior cladding.
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The synthetic stucco. So it's not easy to pull out a window. You have to break out the
stucco around the perimeter. You have to reflash it. You're going to have to patch it and
then we have to think about the patch. How well is that patch going to hold up. So we
have to look at coatings and maybe a reskinning of the facade.
So it's very complicated and it's costly. But we have to think through all of these things
so that you don't come back here in five years. Don't come back here in 10 years. Of
course repairs to interior finishes. So in any project that's had water intrusion, you have
to have allowances and unit prices to replace framing that's rusted. You have to have
allowances to replace the drywall. That all has to be in the plan.
And then of course, the replacement of portion of the exterior hardscape and installation
of additional drainage. Again, that could happen now or that may happen three years
from now. Again, it's part of your business plan, business decision for improving this
building.
In terms of a schedule, I had a discussion with Grady and the team. Certainly the near -
term solutions, you could look at implementing. Some can start sooner than others, but
you're looking at a period of between October 2022 and June 2023. Part of that will
require procurement of a contractor and so that does take a little time. And development
of these solutions.
MAYOR DICKEY: We could do that air quality evaluation before that, right? That's
kind of the only immediatc like worry I would say.
BUICK: Yes.
FRIEDEL: Can I make a couple of comments?
MAYOR DICKEY: Yeah, sure.
FRIEDEL• We've got a guy in our planning and zoning I think we really need to tap into.
That's Rick Watts. He's dealt with a lot of this stuff He knows people that can get us the
help I think. So that would be the first thing that I would suggest. And then I didn't see
anything mentioned in here about the roof yet, maybe you haven't gotten to it. But
maybe there's a concern about that roof. And then the thing that struck me as well is, 24
tests, 24 leaks. We are paying an awful lot of money to run this building in energy cost
that hasn't even been brought up. And I'm willing to bet you that if we do replace
windows, if we have to at some point, that were going to see a substantial savings in
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energy cost alone because if we've got those kinds of leaks, that meter is just running
nonstop.
BUICK: Yeah. As far as the roof concern, it's in our report. The primary discussion
points here are the windows, the doors. That's sort of the lions share of the issue. But
certainly the roof, we've provided some recommendations and my understanding is the
team's looking at getting a repair quote to recoat, refinish the roof and address the leaking
penetrations and those associated components.
MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you.
So Grady, what do you want from us?
MILLER: Money.
MAYOR DICKEY: I mean besides that.
MILLER: So were going to be tine tuning. This isn't the end of this discussion. So
were going to be doing two things. As was mentioned earlier were going to be training
to have the building evaluated for the interior for the air quality and if there's any issues
perhaps with mold and mildew, and so you'll be made aware of that. But we also are
going to put together a plan as to what these near -term recommendations will be and then
the longer term ones. So we need to probably pull in another firm that just looks at the
architectural recommendations here and what those are going to cost. Because that was
not part of their scope here to do that. So there's more yet to come to you and we will be
doing that.
I would probably tell you that well likely put together a capital improvement project for
next fiscal year, at least as a placeholder while were trying to develop what those costs
might be.
Again, 1 really want to evaluate what these near -term solutions might be because they
might really just take care of -- I mean the storefront windows, my understanding is that's
completely custom that we have there now. They're not off -the -shelf kind of windows
that you just can buy. So that's going to be very costly and then impacts of replacing
windows to the interior finishes, as you heard, can be quite expensive.
So again, when I asked you about the sealant, I was told you believe that that could be a
25 to 30 year, if it's done appropriately, right? On the windows?
BUICK: Depending how the sealant's applied. Silicone sealants have a very long lasting
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life. They're UV resistant. If they at the proper dimension, the proper thickness, proper
adhesion to the windows, it cane last a very long time if it's done properly.
MILLER: So in answer, that's the track we're on right now.
MAYOR DICKEY: The other thing is if we are going to replace them then you end up
probably taking a really long time to, not only find them, but to get them. So I don't
know that we would want to be leaking all that time either.
BUICK: The other thing to consider with replacement of windows, you also don't want
to have a quilt patch network of windows. So if you replace the storefronts, then the
question becomes well, what about the other windows? You know the punch windows
that may or may not be leaking. So we have to consider all those.
MAGAZINE: Instead of near -term or long-term, would it make sense to mix and match?
For example, are there near -term things and maybe some long-term things that can be put
in a little package? I don't know if that makes sense. Or do one -- or does the near -term
obviate the need for some of the long-term?
BUICK: 1 think it would still be two different packages because it would take a longer
period of time to develop the drawing and specifications for the long-term solutions. Part
of it's going to be an energy analysis to your point. You know, we have more energy
efficient windows that may improve, result in a reduction of energy usage within a
building. So there is some energy analytics that have to happen. So that takes time. So it
would actually be probably two separate packages.
MAYOR DICKEY: David?
SPELICH: Thank you, Madam Mayor. Well, it's a great report Mr. Buick and it's a
troubling report. I have to be honest with you, I read it and I didn't sleep that night,
Saturday night because I read it and did nothing but really make me angry. Ijust -- if we
would have known a portion -- even I think I a small portion of the magnitude of how bad
this building is in disrepair, I don't think any of us up here would have voted for the
$800,000 to remodel it. I mean it's like, you know, your house has fallen down, the roof
is broke, but you go out and you put hardwood floors in and put up brand new wallpaper
and curtains. We totally did it backwards.
I think that this is -- and believe me when 1 tell you Mr. Buick, 1 -- a lightbulb change and
maybe using that little tool to get the garbage disposal unstuck is my total knowledge of
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anything building related. So I'm not even going to sit up here and try to BS you. But I
just feel like how did our staff, how did facilities, how was this not -- I mean I can look at
your pictures and see that the windows don't have sealant. And believe me, I'm not
talented, but I know that there's sealant missing. There's just things that I just -- I'm so
disappointed that we didn't pick up on this. I know would have, could have, should have,
but I just -- I feel so let down that we spent so much money to beautify this building and
the outside is in such bad shape. And I cannot believe that when you come back with
this, that this isn't going to be north of a SI million.
I mean I just had a estimate for windows on my home and it was 40 grand.
BUICK: This will be over seven figures.
SPELICH: Oh boy. December can't come quick enough.
BUICK: 1 do want to speak to -- I'm not saying, or not knowing and -- we have clients
that have gone through construction defect litigation and they come back to us and say
we don't ever want to go through that again. What do we need to do? Well, what
happens is, you're restricted in budget on how much you pay an architect. So you have a
finite budget. You don't have a budget for maybe a building commissioning or building
envelope inspector. Call your insurance person that's working on behalf of the owner top
check these things.
We have projects where we verify that brand new windows. We'll do a mockup. We test
it, make sure that doesn't leak as they're installing it. So I think some things to think
about a long-term is what is your plan for maybe improving or maybe equipping your
staff with tools like us to verify some of the work as it's being installed. And I'll tell you
a lot of projects don't have that luxury. And it is an expense that has to be budgeted in
advance. And it's -- we see that. People have learned then rethink how they want to
approach a project. So it's an unfortunate lesson leamed.
SPELICH: So in your professional opinion do we do these glazing or siliconing these
windows or rip the Band-Aid off and do it the right way?
BUICK: You're in a tough spot because they're leaking really badly. So short of putting
a giant screen with a special spray over them or awnings, 1 think you're sort of
handcuffed into having to wet seal the windows.
SPELICH: Wet seal as opposed to replacing them?
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BUICK: Yeah. Because you can replace them but you're going to have a lag time of two
or three years and I think it's important to stop that water now. To minimize the adverse
effects on the facility.
SPELICH: So Commissioner Watts you were here in the front row and you heard what
one of our residents said about possibility of a liability issue with the builder of the -- if
the builder still even exists. Do you believe there was negligence in the building?
BUICK: So we do a lot of forensic work. Our company studies thousands of
condominiums, apartments, commercial buildings and there's always a reason why the
building failed. It could have been design, it could have been the builder, it could have
been the decision made not to include certain flashing elements because it was value
engineered. So it's tough to say but clearly there is a workmanship issue here. But there
are other reasons for it.
SPELICH: So in 2001 was part of putting up a building like that, would that not have
included the pans that you talk about?
BUICK: Not necessarily. I'd have to study what the decision was to get to that point.
SPELICH: You see where I'm going with this.
BUICK: Yeah.
SPELICH: I'm trying to recoup if there's any money to be recouped.
BUICK: If you question -- I'll leave it to counsel --
MAYOR DICKEY: I'm sure Aaron --
BUICK: -- to answer that question.
MAYOR DICKEY: Yeah, Aaron would like to say something.
ARNSON: I would. Thank you, Mayor and Councilman Spelich. So I kind of
anticipated that maybe this would be where the conversation would lead, at least in part.
So we have discussed those issues kind of already internally that, yes, there may be issues
related to construction defects or design defects. There may also be issues related to
maintenance or building age or something that's incident to other factors, right, that
contribute to some of the damage that we have. We are at the most preliminary stages of
this. We just don't know what those are, at least in my view. 1 mean it sounds like the
gentleman at the podium agrees that we would have to evaluate much further to make a
determination as to what degree we can attribute any degree of damage.
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So that being said, it is something that's already on our radar and something that we're
aware as we go through this process, we're going to have to look into and keep the
council apprised of because there's no shortage of possibilities of what this could be
attributable to.
SPELICH: Okay. And I'm not trying -- please, believe me, I'm not trying to put you on
the spot, because I know whatever you say here could come up -- if this ever does wind
up in court. I live in court. So believe me, I know what you don't want to say. Could
part of your plan also be kind of a list of priorities of what you think, like you guys got to
do this. Like this is number one. This is number two. This is number three. In order of
importance of if in the event we don't have this over $1 million figure to get rolling.
BUICK: We do that all the time.
SPELICH: Okay.
BUICK: 1 need to understand your budget and sometimes we have to work to your
budget and use the money wisely. So maybe the wet seal option is just as good. We can
verify that by testing the windows after we seal it. So maybe we could save money not
having to replace those windows. And we could prioritize this -- what I like to tell our
clients is, we want to give you a good, better, best approach. But I have to understand
your budget and no one has an open checkbook.
SPELICH: Yeah. It's what you have in your checking account. Just consider whatever
you have in your checking account now, that's our budget.
BUICK: Right.
MAYOR DICKEY: It's along those lines about looking at buildings that were built 20
years ago or 21 years ago, is having that slab extend from beyond the footprint of the
building is that normal or was that like --
BUICK: Yeah, actually you see it on high rises actually, or you can see a slab extension
beyond the footprint of the window --
MAYOR DICKEY: And the fact that --
BUICK: -- but if 1 were to review the construction drawings. Let's say inception. If
we're -- you know, were always good at Monday morning quarterbacking everything,
right. But so if I could quarterback this one, I would have liked to have looked at that
and suggested let's slope this at a half' inch per foot slope away from the building. Let's
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put some waterproofing. Let's put some (lashings if that's the desired aesthetic goal. I'm
a simple engineer, I might say I don't want anything beyond the footprint of the window.
Let's not have it all. But I can't argue with a designer, because there's also look and feel
that you're trying to -- you're trying to represent the Town of Fountain Hills. You've just
got a big gold award and so you still have to look at some of the aesthetic needs that are
important to you.
MAYOR DICKEY: And if it, like you said, because I know-- I wondered if it had
settled, if the building part had settled. But you basically said it was almost like the
outside had stared to crawl up. So is there like rebar or anything --
BUICK: Oh, yeah. There's structural reinforcement with the concrete --
MAYOR DICKEY: That extends?
BUICK: That extends --
MAYOR DICKEY: But that still popped up.
BUICK: We don't know how they cured the concrete. We don't know what the weather
was like. We don't know how well they compacted the soil. There's so many factors
there.
MAYOR DICKEY: And would that -- if there's a lot of rebar, would it interfere with that
flashing, or that drainage that --
BUICK: No. Oh, well, typically concrete would have a inch and a half, two inch cover,
meaning concrete on top. So there is some room to grind it. You can get a -- what you
do is get a X-ray or scanning contractor to scan the rebar to see what depth it's at. Verify
it. Chip it a little bit. So there's a way to verify that.
MAYOR DICKEY: And then talking about money, is this a weather event? Is there any
insurance involvement in any of this damage?
ARNSON: My guess is probably not. But -- I just don't know, Mayor. My guess is
probably not. But --
MAYOR DICKEY: But we could look at that?
ARNSON: Yeah, exactly, right. But my guess is no.
MILLER: If there was, if 1 could just interrupt real quick to your point. If it was
determined that there was some -- and again, we're getting into hypothetical situations
here, but if it was determined that there was some shoddy workmanship or it wasn't built
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to the construction documents, we could certainly work with our insurer to represent the
town and go after, but they have some limit on their liability and protecting the town on
that too, probably, right?
MAYOR DICKEY: And I was kind of more thinking of the other kind of insurance,
Your Honor.
ARNSON: I understand. Like property --
MAYOR DICKEY: Right.
ARNSON: property and casualty insurance. Yeah.
MAYOR DICKEY: Okay.
ARNSON: Yeah, I mean -- again, I'm speaking a little bit out of school, but typically
that's going to be attributable to a single storm event that causes discernable damage.
And I think what were experiencing here is something that's kind of' materially different
from that.
MAYOR DICKEY: Sharron?
GRZYBOWSKI: Okay, for us lay people.
BUICK: Sure.
GRZYBOWSKI: I did a search in the report for the words mold, mildew, black mold,
none of that shows up. What we do see is bioorganic growth. Is that mold? Is it the
precursor to mold'? Help us lay people understand exactly what bioorganic growth is?
BUICK: So we are not a industrial hygienist. So it's difficult for me to say what mold it
is, or what mildew it is. All I know is there's something observed on the drywall that's
bioorganic in nature. To determine what type of mold it is in terms of what class it is or
what type of mildew that's where the industrial hygienist needs to come in to help
identify that and help articulate what you need to do in terms of a remedy.
MAYOR DICKEY: Any other comments or questions?
Yes, Peggy?
MCMAHON: Okay, magician here. Money -wise, I mean you're asking -- you say you
need to know what our budget is, but do you have any even concept or ideas? It's $1.5
million project to start or anything because we'll need to look at the budget in order to see
if we have the funds in order to start taking the steps in order to remedy this issues and
fix it.
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BUICK: I mean I think first we'd have to prioritize the repairs and then assign a dollar
figure to each repair. Through the efforts of professional construction estimators we can
weigh in on what those costs are to develop what we think that cost is and then present it
to you. We have to include contingencies, allowances, effects of the finishes and build
that number. So it's tough to say what that cost is today. So certainly it's over seven
figures. And is it one million, ten million, four million, three million, two million, I think
there's some homework that needs to be done to get to that point.
MCMAHON: Okay, so arc you going to come back with a list, a priority list of what
needs to be taken -- suggestions as far as what we need to do in order, so we can get there
and get a budget established?
MILLER: If I can just jump in? I think he's only responding to a question that was asked
earlier about prioritization and if he were to do it differently than a near -term and long-
term and he said yes, if we were to do that it would be helpful for me to know what's in
your checkbook. And so we could certainly consider having his firm maybe do another
assistance with this or maybe they might actually be the ones that would be the ones
helping us identify estimates for the repair work. But that's where that all came from.
MCMAHON: Okay.
MAYOR DICKEY: Councilmember'?
MAGAZINE: We can afford it. We can afford whatever we have to do. We may not
want to spend it, but we can afford it. And so my question is, and maybe it's been
answered. You're going to do a near -term approximation and a long-term approximation
for cost? Two different ones?
BUICK: We can offer that service to do that, yes.
MAGAZINE: Okay, thank you.
FRIEDEL: Is it conceivable, I saw several pictures of drywall that you removed and saw
some issues. Is it conceivable that there's a lot more drywall that has to be administered
to and then we might find other problems deeper in that building? Or did you just hit the
main areas --
BUICK: We hit the main -- first of all, if you look at the building a lot of the buildings
CMU and concrete. So then you have this infill of framing and drywall where you have
the majority of this water damage, bioorganic issue on the framing. So it's conceivable
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that you have more locations of similar construction experiencing the same leaks and all
of that has to be factored in when you're developing your allowances and contingencies
for repairs of the interior.
FRIEDEL. So will that necessitate a much more thorough examination of that building
then do you think or --
BUICK: I think I'd like to defer to the hygienist. Let him develop a scope for you. And
determine what he feels the testing plan would be for that.
FRIEDEL: I'm just wondering too, were pulling a lot of water out of that building right
now, still and it's been pretty dry. Maybe we need a moisture reading in there as well as
an air quality type of -- I don't know, I'm out of my element but I just --
MILLER: I'm sorry. When you say moisture reading are you talking about moisture --
FRIEDEL: Yeah.
MILLER: -- or are you talking about humidity reading?
FRIEDEL: Well, moisture. If your dehumidifiers are pulling that kind of water out of
there, that's a lot of water. We haven't had rain now for -- well we had a little bit this
morning but --
MILLER: Right.
SPELICH: I don't know how much more moisture there is in there.
MILLER: As Steve, our facilities superintendent, you want to come up. I thought you've
been giving me some readings or you shared with me a reading recently.
BARTLETT: Yes. In fact, when Gene and I were over there before we came over here, I
think we looked at our dehumidifiers and one was at 20 percent relative to humidity.
And the other one was in the 40s, the one by the kitchen. 1 don't know what the outside,
you know, what the ambient humidity was today, but I know we had a little bit of rain
this morning. So it kind of varies. There is a noticeable difference in the way the
building feels especially in that computer lab and again in the kitchen area. But yeah,
they're pulling out quite a bit of moisture out of the air which I think has been helpful.
MILLER: Thank you.
MAYOR DICKEY: Anything else? Any other questions or comments.
MILLER: We appreciate it and I think we've got some good direction from the council
and we will provide you updates as we progress with this.
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MAYOR DICKEY: All right.
SCHARNOW: Just something real quick. Grady, I'm just wondering how much money
we have to spend to figure out how much money we're going to spend?
SPELICH: Just for knowledge. How much was your project? How much did we pay
you?
BUICK: Was it 20,000-something?
MAYOR DICKEY: I think we know we have to do whatever we have to do. So we'll
get there. Thank you so much for --
BUICK: Thank you.
MAYOR DICKEY: -- yes. Very impressive. Thank you. Yes, sir?
WELDY: Mayor, if 1 may? In regard to the humidity, and I just checked. So right now
around this building were at about 39 percent. So the humidity has been relatively high.
Keep in mind, as we discuss humidity, there are some contributing factors. We have a
kitchen there that is in use and most importantly an ice machine that is in heavy use, and
that ice machine has an automatic drain system into what we refer to as a floor sink. We
also have restroom facilities there with running water. So we're-- while there is certainly
humidity in that building, it's not unusually high. But again, we will continue to monitor
it and see what we can do to reduce that. And lastly, and there was some discussion in
regard to maintenance. We certainly do our best to maintain these facilities with the staff
and funding that we have and we'll continue to move forward with that and maintain
them for the use of all.
So even when we discover these deficiencies or challenges with any one of the town -
owned buildings we simply do not allow them to just sit there. If it's a major issue, we
engage the town manager and the finance director and secure funding. And more often
than not a lot of the stuff that's addressed goes unnoticed because it's the day in and day
out. It does all cost money and staff time.
Thank you for your time tonight. We certainly appreciate that. We will be returning,
working with the town manager, the professional firm and facilities to address and
answer to the best of our ability the questions that have been asked here tonight.
MAYOR DICKEY: Thank you, Director. That's it. We're adjourned. Thank you.
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